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LeviUK hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.06.09 13:06:00 - [31] Edited by: LeviUK on 09/06/2007 13:09:04 Originally by: Shardrael ... to all saying bob will get bored and leave the game once they have conquered 0.0: wake up, thats just like cyvok saying they are all going to play pirates of the burning sea, bob will do what it always has done, find a target, if the only targets left happen to be friendly... guess what standings reset... A standings reset would be interesting but would it be feasible? It would give bob fresh targets but lower their income and give them a lot less control over the influence map (after all, as good as one alliance may be, they cannot keep all regions free of red without overstretching themselves). Furthermore, each of the alliances and corps who were set to neutral would also probably be targetted by many of the current anti-bob entities as for many, MC/BoB protection is the only thing keepling them alive. I know for sure, even after a reset, there are some 'MC/BoB & friends' alliances and corps I'd never allow myself to be blue to.
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.06.09 13:23:00 - [32] Originally by: Shardrael to all dismissing the idea that renters will go to war: first off it has already happened, I should know I was in an alliance that went to war with rise et all in the area, I know how that turned out. Err so what are you about to teach us? You tried it, you got pwned by BoB for trying it. So this is exactly what will happen anywhere else too. The only way it wouldn't happen this way again was if there were like pets of accumulated 10'000 players or something revolting at the same time. But don't you think BoB would notice that in before? Every little **** pet alliance revolting is gonna be kicked out like you were. Open your eyes dude! Oh and abo÷ut the other argument considering the muscle to hold the space: haven't you noticed BoB is recruiting like insane? I doubt they want some random people to share their victory with...
Mitch Taylor Caldari Dark-Rising Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.06.09 13:31:00 - [33] Everyone on 'team cool' gets a badge, in fighting is discouraged by ever present threat of badge removal. Dark-Rising
Talen Reaper O.R.C. Outrage Compliant Sparta Alliance	Posted - 2007.06.09 13:45:00 - [34] It also depends on how many renters VS how much space it was getting very crowded up here in dek under d2 which created some bad feelings toward D2 ...there is just so many places you can go a ratting ....
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.06.09 13:52:00 - [35] Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 09/06/2007 13:51:54 Why would renters go to war? They're allies... ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Onchas Erivvia Black Eclipse Corp	Posted - 2007.06.09 14:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Shardrael I would like to pose an honest and civil question to any who have renters in space they have claimed, although directed mostly at bob as you seem to have the most space and renters. what would you folks do if two seperate renter alliances went to war with one another, mind you not went to war with the landowners but two tenants each started duking it out for territory and kills? But, as other people have asked, why would they? What's the end-game? If they just want some fights, they can go find them. But it's not like one can conquer the other's territory. There's also been a sub-conversation about the old "what happens when BoB owns everything" line of thinking. If people think back about a year ago, the Great Northern War had been over for a while and the small skirmishes in the South-East were nothing significant. So what did BoB do? They reset standings. I remember Molle's release, "we give the citizens of Eve the gift of war." ------------------------------------------ "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!"' Teh Onchinator' Personal Assistant to MrsPitman
Third Down Hard Rock Cafe	Posted - 2007.06.09 14:32:00 - [37] Originally by: Shardrael what would you folks do if two seperate renter alliances went to war with one another, mind you not went to war with the landowners but two tenants each started duking it out for territory and kills? Tenants are expected to match our standings, to ensure internal security. Ergo if they want to fight each other, they're expected to leave until they've resolved their differences. Of course a short local squabble goes practically unnoticed, but these things tend to escalate and draw in other corps and alliances. So to preserve security and prevent descent into chaos, it's a no go.
ElweSingollo Starlancers Mordus Angels	Posted - 2007.06.09 15:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Onchas Erivvia Originally by: Shardrael I would like to pose an honest and civil question to any who have renters in space they have claimed, although directed mostly at bob as you seem to have the most space and renters. what would you folks do if two seperate renter alliances went to war with one another, mind you not went to war with the landowners but two tenants each started duking it out for territory and kills? But, as other people have asked, why would they? What's the end-game? If they just want some fights, they can go find them. But it's not like one can conquer the other's territory. There's also been a sub-conversation about the old "what happens when BoB owns everything" line of thinking. If people think back about a year ago, the Great Northern War had been over for a while and the small skirmishes in the South-East were nothing significant. So what did BoB do? They reset standings. I remember Molle's release, "we give the citizens of Eve the gift of war." They reset some standing it was portraid as a "complete" standings reset it wasn't. CCP and Eve Online... It's not a bug, it's a feature *In Before I Get M* Aagain*
Dianabolic Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.09 15:15:00 - [39] Originally by: ElweSingollo Originally by: Onchas Erivvia Originally by: Shardrael I would like to pose an honest and civil question to any who have renters in space they have claimed, although directed mostly at bob as you seem to have the most space and renters. what would you folks do if two seperate renter alliances went to war with one another, mind you not went to war with the landowners but two tenants each started duking it out for territory and kills? But, as other people have asked, why would they? What's the end-game? If they just want some fights, they can go find them. But it's not like one can conquer the other's territory. There's also been a sub-conversation about the old "what happens when BoB owns everything" line of thinking. If people think back about a year ago, the Great Northern War had been over for a while and the small skirmishes in the South-East were nothing significant. So what did BoB do? They reset standings. I remember Molle's release, "we give the citizens of Eve the gift of war." They reset some standing it was portraid as a "complete" standings reset it wasn't. The only people we didn't reset was Xelas and MC iirc. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
Bigeasy Caldari Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.09 19:07:00 - [40] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus We hold monthly pillow fights to settle disputes. Then we make up and have pudding. I kinda like his idea... Let them hate, so long as they fear-Caligula
Rancid Beef Shadow Gypsies R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.09 19:17:00 - [41] One time I shot at Mitch Taylor, and Molle came out of a cyno and wacked my knuckles with a ruler ! "A friend of death, a brother of luck, and a s.o.b."
Maraude Fury Minmatar Shadow Of The Light R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.09 19:36:00 - [42] I think one thing that will keep things intersting, is even if BOB gets say 80% of 0.0.. leaving the last 20% to a few good strong alliance's who fight tooth and nail to keep their space, I have a feeling they will be left, so there is a little pocket of "resistance". This will allow a place for new corps/alliance's to come to 0.0 and live in the nomansland between major alliance's. In this space, new corps/alliance's will grow quickly, as there is a large transient pvp population, who only sticks with their corp/alliance if there is an ongoing war. Those players will flock to those new alliance's, and push back where they can. As well, we have alliance's who may be BOB renters, that eventually disolve, split up, merge and so on. All these movements of alliance's tend to redraw the boundries of space. Alliance's XXX and YYY merge to become ZZZ. They only need 75% of the space they two had before, so they leave part of their old space free, which gets a new smaller alliance/corp to rent. If you look at the "renters" most of them have space inbetween their "rented" space. These act as nice buffer zones, and even if you double or tripple the players in each alliance, STILL gives each of them room to expand. And as we've seen with RISE moveing from Outering/Syndicate to Feythabolis, or GONADS moveing from Fey to OMIST, some renters will move from one are to another, to be closer to the fighting, others to be further from the fighting, and so on.. all of this will allow broders to be more fluid then I think people are expecting. As long as their is someone that everyone can shoot at, I don't think we'll have to worry about it. As long as BOB leave SOME space for independants to fight over, and for new alliance's to be born in, I don't think we'll need to worry. Maraude Fury Shadow Of The Light .SOL.
steveid Metatron Industries	Posted - 2007.06.09 21:30:00 - [43] Originally by: LeviUK Edited by: LeviUK on 09/06/2007 13:09:04 Originally by: Shardrael ... to all saying bob will get bored and leave the game once they have conquered 0.0: wake up, thats just like cyvok saying they are all going to play pirates of the burning sea, bob will do what it always has done, find a target, if the only targets left happen to be friendly... guess what standings reset... A standings reset would be interesting but would it be feasible? It would give bob fresh targets but lower their income and give them a lot less control over the influence map (after all, as good as one alliance may be, they cannot keep all regions free of red without overstretching themselves). Furthermore, each of the alliances and corps who were set to neutral would also probably be targetted by many of the current anti-bob entities as for many, MC/BoB protection is the only thing keepling them alive. I know for sure, even after a reset, there are some 'MC/BoB & friends' alliances and corps I'd never allow myself to be blue to. If BoB do control all of 0.0, something that i personally doubt then they will probably go back to small gang pvp, something for which i'm sure they would be profoundly grateful. And for the "BoB only won because of dec's" brigade think about this: If D2 were given 500 billion isk a month ago do you think they would have won? Of course not. Organisation, skill and commitment won. Not isk. Jeff Anderson: On the internet, Men are men, Women are Men, and Girls are FBI Agents
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.06.09 22:46:00 - [44] Originally by: Djerin Originally by: Shardrael to all dismissing the idea that renters will go to war: first off it has already happened, I should know I was in an alliance that went to war with rise et all in the area, I know how that turned out. Err so what are you about to teach us? You tried it, you got pwned by BoB for trying it. So this is exactly what will happen anywhere else too. The only way it wouldn't happen this way again was if there were like pets of accumulated 10'000 players or something revolting at the same time. But don't you think BoB would notice that in before? Every little ** pet alliance revolting is gonna be kicked out like you were. Open your eyes dude! Oh and abo÷ut the other argument considering the muscle to hold the space: haven't you noticed BoB is recruiting like insane? I doubt they want some random people to share their victory with... ok first I am not trying to teach you anything ffs, nor was i asking about revolting. the example I gave was to show that something similar has already happened and to believe it would never happen is naieve. but the question I posed had nothing to do with revolting. our situation was slightly different, we declared our space sovereighn and stopped paying rent, a few weeks or a month later we started to war with rise and had a few skirmishes with gonads that went on for quite some time before bob brought a large capital fleet to camp our stations for our final month there. however this situation is disimilar from the question posed slightly, for one we did it in a state of war that was currently engulfing the whole universe so when we stopped supporting one side we are immediately the enemies of that side, the question i was asking is basically what happens when most of eve is a giant nap fest ruled over by one powerful alliance and two smaller entities within there arms start to fight eachother but not the overall whole. a problem arises in that no matter what side is victorious it hits the wallet of the landlords, and is somewhat pointless if the victors have to pay rent over territory they just conquered, infact it would be far simpler and cheaper probably to just negotiate a more favorable deal with the landlords and take over stewardship of a new section of space while evicting the former tenants which leads me back to the same conclusion I am reaching every time I ponder this, if one entity owns and rents out a large enough portion of 0.0 space then 0.0 warfare has almost died out, that is to say territorial warfare is no more except when new territory is introduced into the game. This I fear is a very realistic possibility in the near future and why I wanted to spark a debate about what kind of future this would leave. Originally by:** Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.06.09 22:52:00 - [45] I feel compelled to mention that this is a pondering of a future situation when 0.0 has been conquered or just about, when the territory grabbing all but stops either as a result of the resistance being pushed into a small enough space they can defend or as result of final victory, I am well aware its an unlikely situation now but I am thinking longer term then a few months down the road here, so please dont dismiss this cause you dont see how it can happen now Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
Enre Sung Market Control Paradigm	Posted - 2007.06.09 22:55:00 - [46] Subservience breeds Obedience breeds Incompetence. Pets don't invade eachother because they don't know how to take an iniative, or think for themselves. It gets conditioned out of them. All they know is mining, ratting, and defense gangs
Meriones TARDZ Gods of Night and Day	Posted - 2007.06.09 23:12:00 - [47] Originally by: Shardrael few brief replies: to all dismissing the idea that renters will go to war: first off it has already happened, I should know I was in an alliance that went to war with rise et all in the area, I know how that turned out. Wrongo. You stopped paying rent and sided with redswarm when you thought they were going to be taking over Feythabolis. Had nothing to do with Rise. Don't call me a liar either cause I got the convoes with your bosses trying to get us to take up arms with you guys. Sorry, just had to set you straight.
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.06.09 23:31:00 - [48] "Renter" is probably a better word than "pet", but many so called renters would be better described as "vassels". As for Vassels fighting each other, there is a LOT of history for it. I'd not be the least be surprised if it showed up in Eve. While I obviously dont want to deal with the headaches of it, such things do make for a more interesting game, and that is good. Quote: Originally by: CCP kieron If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs.
Fitz Chivalry eXceed Inc.	Posted - 2007.06.10 00:52:00 - [49] If you look at the groups that are renters none of them are what you would call really good pvpers or pvp orientated groups. If you get most of 0.0 as renters then I suspect that the majority of pvpers left in the game would all be in roaming pvp corps a la outbreak, so you will have loads of people roaming around getting ganks and loads of people ratting and doing their thing in rented space. Could actually get interesting for MC at that point, if someone tried to hire them to kill a renter would they do it? Probably not, so what would they do? Trying to attack a roaming pvp corp would be hugely frustrating so it wouldnt be big fun for them. I would predict this will all be a moot point anyway as a major standings reset will be waiting in the wings.
LoKesh Amarr SH Brotherhood R i s e	Posted - 2007.06.10 03:09:00 - [50] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 09/06/2007 13:51:54 Why would renters go to war? They're allies... Don't even try to understand it, my friend. The Coalition seems to lack the ability to understand teamwork. I know full well that RISE is in a business relationship with BoB (our landlords) and we are the tenants. We both benefit from this situation. Someday most of the Coalition will realize this and see that the word 'pet' is just part of a massive propaganda campaign by their leadership to convince them that they are winning. To the earlier poster who claimed the Coalition did work together - I'm in Feythabolis. I saw no combined fleet. What I saw were different alliance roaming the same area in an un-coordinated fashion. As a result, the assault failed. Lack of initiative? RISE has worked with both BoB and other nearby allies (who happen to be renters as well). Yes, we have a powerful ally to seek help from, but we also have our own plans and we work together without BoB as well. If you want proof of initiative... go ask KOS how they're doing. RISE - Minister of Foreign Affairs
Altar Mei Solstice Systems Development Concourse	Posted - 2007.06.10 03:20:00 - [51] I don't think I'll ever understand the renter mentality. "Hey guys lets pay someone so we can fight for them"... smoke'n deal guys. I could of swore at one time or another mole posted something about not respecting those who can't secure there territory on their own. Course could be mixing someone up there. There will be ware among renters, oh yes, there will be war! Originally by: CCP Arkanon We're a company of professionals, not some LAN party gone bad.
Slow Joe I can't believe it's not a noob corp	Posted - 2007.06.10 04:32:00 - [52] Originally by: Glitch 10240 I think that if bob manages to takes over all of 0.0, the pets wont stay there much longer, or bob will fall, cos who are they gonna shoot? Lets face it BOB is essentially a PVP alliance, everyone says this on a constant basis. Well everyone says BoB is essentially a PVP alliance but if it was true, they wouldn't be jumping freighters with their titans to get a massive ammount of isk using broken NPC trade orders. They just want to "win", no matter what, and if it happens, it will just be boring. EVE is not rock-paper-scissors after all. It's just rock-bigger rock, and BoB is gathering all the biggest rocks atm.
Feterous Jolin Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.06.10 08:24:00 - [53] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Edited by: Joshua Foiritain on 09/06/2007 13:51:54 Why would renters go to war? They're allies... Politics change, mistakes are made and people get bored. I don;t know how the whole system works down there, but sometimes things are out of the control of diplomats. Should the situation arise, and I could see it happening, I do wonder how it would resolve itself. Perhaps BOB would simply mediate it, and the two groups would simple have to deal with some kind of negotiation. Or perhaps BOB would let them fight it out. Why not tbh? Should one of them grow to be a power to reckon BOB and perhaps try to take on the big stick head to head, I see BOB welcoming the challenge. They certainly have shown thier willingness to fight.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.06.10 09:18:00 - [54] Edited by: Shardrael on 10/06/2007 09:19:30 Originally by: Meriones Originally by: Shardrael few brief replies: to all dismissing the idea that renters will go to war: first off it has already happened, I should know I was in an alliance that went to war with rise et all in the area, I know how that turned out. Wrongo. You stopped paying rent and sided with redswarm when you thought they were going to be taking over Feythabolis. Had nothing to do with Rise. Don't call me a liar either cause I got the convoes with your bosses trying to get us to take up arms with you guys. Sorry, just had to set you straight. you can have all the convos you want that does not make what I said any less true, if you look at the post two above yours I explained in better detail the situation but since you saw fit to skip reading the rest of the thread and comment on an earlier post I will lay it out again for you. the exact timeline was this, first bob set us to red and broadcast through the feyth intel channels that we were traitors etc and should be set red to all because they found out we intended to declare ourselves a sovereign alliance( hi spies ) and set a number of our former alliance mates (ex ascn mainly Cls Ds1 Ixc Gek and others) as well as goons and later reds to blue. we then spent the next month and half plus waiting for an attack and building our forces. At which point we started to regularly war with rise as we wanted to take the triangle, I hear reds et all were fighting em around this time but that was there own thing and the most we ever saw in there was a couple blues from various alliances we had recently become friends with. after a few weeks of a rather succesful campaign we began to be sieged by bob which continued for a little over another month at which point we left our space. do I doubt our alliance leaders contacted you guys and wanted you to do the same, not at all. It was obvious to us that anyone staying a bob renter would immediately see us as hostile or more as traitors and would be out for blood so they set about trying to make friends from our new position, for this I would not fault them in a million years its exactly what I would have wanted them to do. the point however is that I was illustrating this example as a case where a renter had ended up going to war with another former ally and renter. as was stated however if you had read closely I was not saying our situation was similar to the hypothetical one I was asking about, in fact I laid it out that they were definetly different. the original post was a question for a situation THAT DOES NOT CURRENTLY EXIST in this game but one I am seeing as a possible near future and hence the desire for discussion on it, any more posts about the IRC situation I am not responding to because at this point its been explained and would be off topic Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
Mattduk Gallente Universal Army	Posted - 2007.06.10 11:27:00 - [55] Edited by: Mattduk on 10/06/2007 11:26:51 Originally by: Aeryn Davenport Originally by: Slayton Ford You won't see this happen at all. Do you think that RMF or EO even sends gank gangs into Xelas or FIX space? No, there are plenty of other targets. If they dont even send gank gangs into other renter space, they surely wont be going to war. /rant on Many BoB/BoB pets have said that if only the Coalition corps could coordinate better they could have won. There missing the point. The only thing the coalition was was anti-bob. This meant that in addaition to ganking each other, they attacked BoB. BTW, this is also the difference between being a Free alliance and being a Pet. /rant off It was an organized effort to invade BoB space It was an effort... 'organized' is a little bit of a stretch of the imagination me fears. ;)
Djerin Obsidian Exploration Services	Posted - 2007.06.10 11:35:00 - [56] Originally by: Slow Joe Originally by: Glitch 10240 I think that if bob manages to takes over all of 0.0, the pets wont stay there much longer, or bob will fall, cos who are they gonna shoot? Lets face it BOB is essentially a PVP alliance, everyone says this on a constant basis. Well everyone says BoB is essentially a PVP alliance but if it was true, they wouldn't be jumping freighters with their titans to get a massive ammount of isk using broken NPC trade orders. They just want to "win", no matter what, and if it happens, it will just be boring. EVE is not rock-paper-scissors after all. It's just rock-bigger rock, and BoB is gathering all the biggest rocks atm. /signed They were a pvp alliance when they teamed up. They stopped being so when they started napping all those "renters" and sent out insane cap-blobs as well as titan-blobs against alliances of a quarter of their size. That's not pvp. That's infact how to avoid pvp.
Adm Tecumseh Caldari Frequently Asked Questions	Posted - 2007.06.12 04:01:00 - [57] Standings are King. Part of the rental agreement is that while within the host space you will follow the standings. You have no choice on this. However when outside teh landowners sphere of control you get to set your own standings. Since RMF and EO (properly EXE) were made examples in like the second post I will go with them. If RMF and EXE somehow have a falling out then they may war. But not in BoB space. However northern impass and teniferis are not under BoB control yet so they may choose to declare a mutual agreed arena and fight there. Or they may dec each other and fight in empire. But while in BoB space STANDINGS ARE KING. But with so many big mouths in space close to them they have lots of targets. No point turning on each other.
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.06.12 04:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Adm Tecumseh Standings are King. Part of the rental agreement is that while within the host space you will follow the standings. You have no choice on this. However when outside teh landowners sphere of control you get to set your own standings. Since RMF and EO (properly EXE) were made examples in like the second post I will go with them. If RMF and EXE somehow have a falling out then they may war. But not in BoB space. However northern impass and teniferis are not under BoB control yet so they may choose to declare a mutual agreed arena and fight there. Or they may dec each other and fight in empire. But while in BoB space STANDINGS ARE KING. But with so many big mouths in space close to them they have lots of targets. No point turning on each other. ok this is my point exactly though, so then what happens when bobs sphere of influence is all of 0.0 it may still be many months off or it may never happen, but what I worry about is that if it does happen 0.0 warfare is dead except for whichever renter or former ally bob wants to shoot that month? I am honestly concerned for the future of the game with the direction its going right now if that is what the future may hold Originally by: Stamm Some people might have been convinced by the official announcement posted by Steelrat, but not me, I wasn't convinced until some random alt posts a brand new thread.
Adm Tecumseh Caldari Frequently Asked Questions	Posted - 2007.06.12 04:30:00 - [59] Originally by: Meriones Originally by: Shardrael few brief replies: to all dismissing the idea that renters will go to war: first off it has already happened, I should know I was in an alliance that went to war with rise et all in the area, I know how that turned out. Wrongo. You stopped paying rent and sided with redswarm when you thought they were going to be taking over Feythabolis. Had nothing to do with Rise. Don't call me a liar either cause I got the convoes with your bosses trying to get us to take up arms with you guys. Sorry, just had to set you straight. I got similar convo's stored as well. Not just from IXE but from GEK and CLS as well. They were the great liberators of Feythabolis. Join us or die like the welps you are. Blah BLah Blah
band0fdevs Gallente Band of Dev's	Posted - 2007.06.12 06:00:00 - [60] bob would simply evict both parties from their outposts have everyone else under their grouping set them to red and watch the fireworks

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