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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Xedrik
Supernova Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.12 08:53:00 -
[271]
Edited by: Xedrik on 12/06/2007 08:52:53
Originally by: Aeon Yakati How about you also admit your arguments and facts are spinning around like a wheel?
Ehh. No? Why should I admit to something that isn't true?
Originally by: Aeon Yakati Feels like a rollercoaster
When you put it out of context, it sure does. However, you haven't proven crap. A third party site (even as established as grismar's) can't prove anything. To prove something you have to have access to the real data, the real facts, only CCP have that. So enough with complexes now, please.
I can't prove you're wrong, but you can't prove you're right either. The discussion about complexes is a dead end. So, let's just drop it, since they are getting "fixed" anyway. Stop your damn sidetracking and keep to the subject for once... --- "Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war." |
Aeon Yakati
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.06.12 08:59:00 -
[272]
Edited by: Aeon Yakati on 12/06/2007 08:57:53
Originally by: Xedrik When you put it out of context, it sure does. However, you haven't proven crap. A third party site (even as established as grismar's) can't prove anything. To prove something you have to have access to the real data, the real facts, only CCP have that. So enough with complexes now, please.
Ok, how about you start up EVE, open the map -> Star Map - DED Deadspace Report.
There you have your proof, all the complexes in EVE.
Quote: Stop your damn sidetracking and keep to the subject for once...
I'll stop when the trolls stop spinning around the arguments and facts.
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CHIKA QRE
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Posted - 2007.06.12 09:33:00 -
[273]
Insider information?
Someone neatly fixing prices in database for someone else to neatly pick it up with quantities that are never dissapearing?
Someone with acces to internal DB tools?
Damn... It's like an Bolywood movie, actors and scenario are always the same. It's getting boring guys, how about some other alliance doing something wrong for a change instead of BooB.
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.06.12 10:04:00 -
[274]
I think it's safe to say, that this wasn't intended when CCP made the game mechanics.
Prior to RMR, pilots used to have to rely upon their own mental tracking of prices; or be sneaky and dive into the MachoNet cache to pull prices.
RMR hits, and lo and behold we have a market export. What we also get is a 'fixed' market, which was apparently broken all along; whereby prices now reset when orders are filled - not at downtime as before.
For the vast majority, this new mechanic meant that heavily abused trade routes were no longer a case of first come first served; but more a case of those willing to go further afield and think outside the box.
My point? Well, I am sure CCP didn't realise that someone could jump portal 3 freighters worth of goods; halfway across the universe; with little or no vulnerability; to pick up a bucket of goods from a quiet station.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
nirana
Amarr Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.06.12 10:05:00 -
[275]
Edited by: nirana on 12/06/2007 10:07:53
Originally by: CHIKA QRE Insider information?
Someone neatly fixing prices in database for someone else to neatly pick it up with quantities that are never dissapearing?
Someone with acces to internal DB tools?
Damn... It's like an Bolywood movie, actors and scenario are always the same. It's getting boring guys, how about some other alliance doing something wrong for a change instead of BooB.
Dude, The entire market is like that not just this route, so stop calling us cheaters and play the game.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.06.12 10:19:00 -
[276]
So, with other words the NPC market is broken because it doesn't adjust the prices accordingly to supply and demand?
Well, CCP, I hope you better fix this FAST!
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:25:00 -
[277]
Originally by: Yuki Nagato
Originally by: Orange Species
You don't need a titan to move freighters or items.
The issue isn't the volume of materials, it's how painless/risk free it is.
Try convoying six or so freighters on your own from Venal to Curse and somehow not get torn to bits by a gatecamp or, hell, a dictor and a couple of HACs.
If you can give numbers that prove us wrong or that this isk-making strategy isn't horribly broken and giving you billions of ISK for virtually no risk, then please do so.
I'd hazard the guess that if YOU supplied a 60 billion ISK escort, your freighters would be pretty darn safe too.....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.06.12 12:50:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Gnulpie So, with other words the NPC market is broken because it doesn't adjust the prices accordingly to supply and demand?
Well, CCP, I hope you better fix this FAST!
I think thats a faster and less controversial fix than nerfing titan's to stop this. I think throught the entire galaxy there should be a better NPC supply and demand program.
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Ifni
Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:37:00 -
[279]
Two points to note:
1) If the NPC's are selling at x isk/unit, why is there no opportunistic reseller selling them at x+y isk/unit, where the resultant cost is still less than the final sell price?
2) Due to the prevalence of cargo-carriers it would surely be easier, quicker and cheaper, to use a convoy of 6 or so of these to ship the same volume of plutonium from one end of the galaxy to the other. Greater jump range, lower outlay for ships, etc.
You take what is offered. And that must sometimes be enough. |
Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:47:00 -
[280]
Edited by: Baun on 12/06/2007 15:48:22 At the very least the 10min jump penalty needs to be tacked onto Jump Portal Generation in addition to DD.
As it stands now this will be just as invulnerable post patch as it is now(except that Titan pilots may fit for more than cap recharge when they cannot DD and then immediately jump as they can now). Of course, the real solution is to fix the simplistic way the market orders refresh.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.12 15:49:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Ifni
2) Due to the prevalence of cargo-carriers it would surely be easier, quicker and cheaper, to use a convoy of 6 or so of these to ship the same volume of plutonium from one end of the galaxy to the other. Greater jump range, lower outlay for ships, etc.
Perhaps my carebear skills have greatly diminished, but after the long since passed skiff nerf can you explain to me how to get 3million m3 into 6 carriers?
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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Chib
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:07:00 -
[282]
if this wasnt bob would anyone really care........ ---------------------------------------------
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Tharrn
Amarr Epitoth Fleetyards Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:25:00 -
[283]
Originally by: Baun Of course, the real solution is to fix the simplistic way the market orders refresh.
Anything industry related that requires more than half a day of half-arsed coding has consistantly been cancelled or delayed indefinately. I won't hold my breath tbh :P
Ceterum censeo 'Concordia' esse delendam.
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.12 16:43:00 -
[284]
Originally by: Chib if this wasnt bob would anyone really care........
I care about anything that ruins the game. Because this is essentially unstoppable it might be even worse than the broken plexes.
This needs to be fixed by fixing the riduculously simplistic order adjustment system.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.06.12 17:13:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Baun
Originally by: Chib if this wasnt bob would anyone really care........
I care about anything that ruins the game. Because this is essentially unstoppable it might be even worse than the broken plexes.
This needs to be fixed by fixing the riduculously simplistic order adjustment system.
Obviously the sarcasim is lost upon this most serious of threads
Can someone tell me why we even need these npc orders that inject isk into the economy? Surely there are enough isk injections via bounties etc to provide a stable balance between isk lost from ships and the purchase of pos material?
I would really like to see ccp add the ability for players to generate these products, simular but perhaps a bit easier than t2 production of componants. I feel the addition of ownable brothels, slave pens, training facilities, robotic factories etc would be interesting additions and variations for the industry side of eve. Do we really need a npc market to provide these goods when we could do it ourselves- and eliminate the chance/issue/possibility of farming this resource?
Originally by: Tommy TenKreds Edited by: Tommy TenKreds on 07/01/2007 14:24:00
Originally by: Sonos SAGD he is laying guys
The trouble a misplaced vowel can get you into...
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ChefQuix
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Posted - 2007.06.12 17:36:00 -
[286]
So if people are ****ed at the amount of money BoB is making, and completing the buy order 100% will lower the buy price, why doesn't someone go in after and complete the buy order?
disclaimer, I'm a total noob here.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.12 18:20:00 -
[287]
I don't think BoB are "haxploiting" or anything from this, but it is a pretty ****ty mistake for CCP to make. Totally and utterly massive gain to BoB from a broken mechanic.
don't blame them for doing it (I probably would), but still god awful. --------
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.12 18:37:00 -
[288]
Edited by: Baun on 12/06/2007 18:38:00
Originally by: ChefQuix So if people are ****ed at the amount of money BoB is making, and completing the buy order 100% will lower the buy price, why doesn't someone go in after and complete the buy order?
disclaimer, I'm a total noob here.
You have to move an assload of trade goods into 0.0 in a freighter in order to do that.
In order to have the capacity to do that safely and do it EVERY DAY you need a titan.
Bob has over 50% of the Titans in EVE. The other ones may simply not have 100billion isk lying around to compete with them.
This is all beside the point. Trade routes that people cannot compete in should not exist. Trade routes that inject isk into the game probably shouldn't exist at all anymore. The situation was bad enough when people were jump hauling Roes from Maut into syndicate (yes, I did this too). This is over 10x as profitable, takes the same amount of time, and can be done everyday since there is no competition (the roe runs got very hard to complete orders on).
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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ChefQuix
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Posted - 2007.06.12 19:37:00 -
[289]
But in order to maximize profit, are they not just going to leave a few orders unbought?
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Baun
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.12 20:28:00 -
[290]
Originally by: ChefQuix But in order to maximize profit, are they not just going to leave a few orders unbought?
To maximize profit they will top out one half of the equation.
If there are more sell orders than buy orders they will top out the buy orders. If there are more buy orders than sell orders they will top out the sell orders and fill whatever buy orders they can from the topped out sell orders.
I see no reason for them not to top this out on every run.
The Enemy's Gate is Down
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JennyCraigSuccessStory
Hi Friend
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Posted - 2007.06.13 01:20:00 -
[291]
what's scary is that this is the only one that's been publicized. I'd imagine there are a lot more routes like this... which is not good for the economy at all.
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karumba
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Posted - 2007.06.13 01:52:00 -
[292]
jump driving freighters is just wrong..
geezz.
whichever way you turn it. this is an exploit. No need to use more words.
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LTcyberT1000
Caldari LDK Ultima Rati0
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Posted - 2007.06.13 03:33:00 -
[293]
What about empire NPC markets and players market exploiting traps because NPC corps buy and sell stuff almost ALWAYS at same stations with same prices after each downtime?
CCP, begin randomizing NPC market goods trading stations so to collect like 1000000 plutonium or keeping 1000000 plutonium sell order on same station with just few buy orders would be way too long.. :) ---- T-1000, the old school gamer, started with 8286 machine, 11 years so far for playing games. ******************************************** Skill level: Freelancer Wolf in Moon day :) ******* |
Rollio Polleaous
20th Legion
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Posted - 2007.06.13 04:20:00 -
[294]
Originally by: FireFoxx80 That bit about RMR making it easier to find the npc sales and such
It's easier to do it now but the plutonium run out of Venal is a very old and well known route it's just that it's quite dangerous. I did a few runs in an Ity V pre cap ships it was quite interstinf running down through pureblind. It has also always been possible to find the high value trade routes if you check the market transactions for the corporations that sell the goods all standard fare to the traders.
We could probably condense the rest of the thread into; does the risk to the titan + the time and investment = the payoff. The peopel who are all agape at the 2 billion figure need to figure how much it costs to buy a freighter load of plutonium and think how 2 billion scales compared to that.
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.06.13 05:39:00 -
[295]
Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 13/06/2007 05:41:46 Is this still going on?
The solution is simple. Isk = More Isk. None of this Time+Effort=ISK. If that was the case I'd take out a nicely tanked merlin and spend 20 hours poking down an NPC battleship. By the Time + Effort equation I should be a billionaire.
As has been pointed out, the investment of the titan, frieghters, fuel, equipment etc equates to, well, let's be generous to those saying this is omgexploit and say 40 bil. At 2.2 bil a day,, i'll have paid off that investment in about 18 days.
OR, I could buy a fully T2 kitted raven for,, say, 200 mil (being generous once again) and have it paid off in 10 days at a 20 mil per run of missions per day (which is a fairly low-commitment task).
EDIT: And get 10 people to do it. Bang. 220 mil a day,, a tenth of the profit at a hundredth of the cost. And the only other difference is the titan/frieghter hauling needs 7 people. OMGHAXPLOIT!
Sheesh, do some maths and work it this is pretty bloody fair.
If it's so OMGWTFEASYISK,, go grab your T2 hauler and take advantage of it. Improve Market Competition! |
Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.13 06:35:00 -
[296]
Edited by: Pizi on 13/06/2007 06:35:42 lol they didnt build the titan for that the only investment are the market goods
if a friend saiys drive down and grab me a sixback and he gives me 10% of the price should i count in the price of the car for the profit
if this all is true then this is a prime example of bad game mechanics and the xploit of it and i hope bob has msmTd to some dev why CCP does nothing against it in the light of previous and recent scandals is beyond me _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.06.13 06:41:00 -
[297]
Quote: they didnt build the titan for that the only investment are the market goods
Wtf are you on about?
The titan just didnt appear. They paid for it,,, whether in isk or manufacturing, it's market value is multi-billion,, at least 40 bil in the first place. And with that 40 bil *investment* they make 2.2 bil a day running trade goods.
What the heck is the problem? Improve Market Competition! |
Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.13 06:59:00 -
[298]
the problem is the you are not the brightest ...
THE TITAN IS THERE he doesnt vanish when the buy order is filled nor does he loose market value
if i produce a hyperion do i or do i not calculate in the price of the blueprint original for my profit ?
the blueprint is there it doesnt get destoyed, isnt at risk and if im fed up with hyperion production ill sell it
same with the titan hes nowere at risk and he doesnt loose his market value _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Kylar Renpurs
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:34:00 -
[299]
Quote: the problem is the you are not the brightest ...
Obviously the amount of effort put into your insults equates to your own intelligence.
Seriously, you feel like flinging mud then go for your life, you only make yourself look ********.
Quote: THE TITAN IS THERE he doesnt vanish when the buy order is filled nor does he loose market value
No freaking ****. So is my raven when i run a mish. So is my hauler when i do a high sec cargo run, so is my miner when i finish mining.
Quote: if i produce a hyperion do i or do i not calculate in the price of the blueprint original for my profit ?
Never done any real profit making hey? When I set up a new POS, the initial cost is an *investment*, if i didnt make that part clear about the titan. POS setup costs, say, 500 mil off the bat. From that, I can produce isk at, minus daily fuel and stock, 40 mil a day afk. With my 200mil raven, i can make 20 mil a day ATK. Ergo with a 40 bil titan and freighters, I can make 2.2 bil a day. Some maths for you even,,,
200 mil raven investment = ability to make 20 mil a day ATK (10% ROI per day, at the keyboard tho so a little more effort) 500 mil POS investment = ability to make 40 mil a day (8% ROI per day, afk so no effort cept to refuel/restock) 40 bil investment in Titan, jump fuel and freighters = 2 bil a day (5%! ROI per day).
Tell me where that isn't fair?
Quote: the blueprint is there it doesnt get destoyed, isnt at risk and if im fed up with hyperion production ill sell it
Yup, you can do that with a titan,, make 2.2 bil a day till you're tired and sell it.
Quote: same with the titan hes nowere at risk and he doesnt loose his market value
My POS, raven, researched blueprints dont lose value either.
Again I ask,, what are you on about? Improve Market Competition! |
Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.13 08:06:00 -
[300]
we talk about profit yes ?
your examples are all about ROI
your examples are about investment in a specific task and are at risk anytime and your numbers are a bit off i think
even if your 500mil pos produces 40 mill a day (lol) the 40 mill goods sit there, they need to be transportet and again are at risk(as is your pos)
the titan is nowhere at risk isnt build for that its basicly icing on the cake
and im sure some pet alliance will buy it if bob wants to sell it _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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