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PartyVaN
Minmatar The Hand Trade Alliance FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:46:00 -
[1]
I am still a little miffed that T2 Launchers have the same base RoF as 'Arbalast' T1 Launchers. Now yes I realize T2 Launchers get the 2-10% increased ROF from the spec skill and can hold more missiles and can use T2 missiles (duh), but I still think they should be better (ie have a proportionally higher rof).
I know people will yell when I try and compare missiles to turrets, but when you consider that T2 "guns" are as good or better in every way (mostly their damage mod, as a launcher's rof is the closest thing to a damage mod) compared to their best named T1 counterpart (yes harder to fit, but so are T2 launchers), I doesn't seem completely fair that someone can do just about as good as T2 by just slapping on Arbys, especially on ships without any launcher rof bonus and with missiles types that really dont use their T2 missiles a lot.
Now I dont know what the RoF bonus stepping is from T1 -> named - > T2, but I feel the T2 launchers should continue this stepping past Arby and be a bit faster.
mind my running sentences and such...
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Aleranie
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:51:00 -
[2]
You sir, are just plain wrong.
Best named turrets have the exact same stats that tech2 have. The only thing tech2 has over them is in fact, specialization skill bonus and advanced ammo. Both of which come at the cost of higher fitting requirements.
In short, it is the same as it is for launchers.
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PartyVaN
Minmatar The Hand Trade Alliance FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:52:00 -
[3]
er? Wow okay I guess i never realized that.
Okay well I change my argument to include turrets to then.
Problem solved...
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Hectaire Glade
Forum Jockey
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:54:00 -
[4]
T2 also have higher capacity than arby (15% or so), which results in more DPS over a given period as your 10 second reload downtimes happen less frequently.
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Mike Yagon
Minmatar The Nest
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:54:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Mike Yagon on 13/06/2007 07:53:42 Actually, you will find that the same applies for guns.
Take a look at: http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/shipequipment/turretsbays/projectileturrets/artillerycannons/large/9491.asp and: http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/shipequipment/turretsbays/projectileturrets/artillerycannons/large/2961.asp
You will find ROF, Damage Mod, and everything is identical, including the capacity. (They can't even hold more ammo!)
Tech2 launchers get to hold more ammo, which means you have to reload less often. This increases your DPS because the 10 second reload time happens later.
Now the whole deal with the Tech2 guns is simply the added damage from the spec skill, and this is perfectly justified. Why Tech2 need to be even more powerful? The real power from Tech2 weapons comes from Tech2 ammo anyway, and not the 8% damage increase most people will have.
*edit* Fixed linkies.
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In Carebear We Trust
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PartyVaN
Minmatar The Hand Trade Alliance FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.13 07:57:00 -
[6]
Edited by: PartyVaN on 13/06/2007 07:56:03 Okay Yea i just checked, and i guess I missed those. Oh well
But I did mention the part about a bigger capacity in my first post.
bah and ffs mask the links...
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:20:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Mike Yagon Tech2 launchers get to hold more ammo, which means you have to reload less often. This increases your DPS because the 10 second reload time happens later.
Not really, as alunchers get a RoF bonus, not a damage bonus (and the increases ammo size is there to compensate). This not only means they get almost the exact same DPS differential, but they also use up more ammo as Arbalests, while T2 turrets don't use more ammo units as their T1 best named counterparts. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Tibrius Archer
Kurai-Komichi Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:46:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Mike Yagon Tech2 launchers get to hold more ammo, which means you have to reload less often. This increases your DPS because the 10 second reload time happens later.
Not really, as alunchers get a RoF bonus, not a damage bonus (and the increases ammo size is there to compensate). This not only means they get almost the exact same DPS differential, but they also use up more ammo as Arbalests, while T2 turrets don't use more ammo units as their T1 best named counterparts.
What???????????? - Can tell that was wrote in a hurry. *****************************************
"Get in my way and I will burn your fleet from stem to stern" |
NIkis
Minmatar W33D Corp. O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.06.13 10:54:00 -
[9]
The arby/T2 modules are fine. T3 will be even better when it comes. I'm sure there are other more pressing issues to whine about.
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Cpt Branko
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Posted - 2007.06.13 11:08:00 -
[10]
Meh.
T2 launchers do more DPS due to 'spec' skill, and, more importantly, can use T2 ammo. Arby launchers are rarer, cost more, but are easier to fit and don't require that many skills.
Same with top named vs T2 with guns, and it's fine. The 8%-10% DPS difference combined with typically lower cost and the ability to use T2 ammo (a very important point), make T2 much better, but not "you don't have a chance" better, what's a good thing.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.06.13 11:18:00 -
[11]
if anything T2 launchers get more than T2 guns since best named and T2 are identical cept for the skill and ability to use T2 ammo
T2 launchers get more room to hold missiles now stop moaning you're already better off than turret users
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.06.13 11:40:00 -
[12]
There you go, one example, with Heavy Missile Launchers.
'Arbalest' Heavy : 12.0 sec RoF, capacity 1.08m (36 missiles) ; 432 seconds from full to empty T2 Heavy : 10.8 sec Rof (with L5 spec, base 12.0), capacity 1.20m (40 missiles) ; 432 seconds from full to empty
You get the EXACT SAME reload timings, while using 4 missiles more (at L5 specialisation).
That means, yeah, you deal EXACTLY +(4/36) = 11.11% extra damage (but you also use 11.11% more ammo). Of course, you can always also use T2 ammo, and that's an added benefit. But the reload timings at max skills are still the same as with best named.
On the flipside, take 250mm Railguns for instance. 250mm Proto vs T2, they have IDENTICAL stats except fitings and base energy usage per shot (named 8cap ; T2 10cap)... and, of course, the fact one can use T2 ammo, the named one can't. With L5 specialisation, the T2 gun will deal EXACTLY +10% damage, while using the same amount of ammo. Sure, it's not +11.11% like the launchers, but you get the idea. _ New char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Dronte
Minmatar Mordus Angels
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Posted - 2007.06.13 12:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Gawain Hill if anything T2 launchers get more than T2 guns since best named and T2 are identical cept for the skill and ability to use T2 ammo
T2 launchers get more room to hold missiles now stop moaning you're already better off than turret users
That would be true if T2 missiles werent complete crap, unlike T2 ammo. I hardly ever see people using T2 missiles, myself included I hardly never load T2 ammo into my Cerb for several reasons cause the penalties for T2 missiles are just way way wrong.
Firstly they only have about half the range. I get around 130km (iirc) with std. T1 ammo in the cerb (heavy missiles), but with T2 my max range is 60-65km. You then probably say "well yeah but then you get other bonus'". True, but also further nerfs.
Lets take Scourge heavy missiles fx. Standard Scourge: Damage: 150 Velocity: 3750 m/s Flight Time: 10sec Explosion Velocity: 750 Explosion Radius: 125m
Lets then start the comparison with the high damage Fury Scourge: Damage: 175 Velocity: 3000 Flight Time: 6sec Explosion Velocity: 750 Explosion Radius: 125m 7.5% reduced cap recharge rate PER launcher
This means that while you do a bit more damage, they are slower (harder to catch fast ships), last less time than regular (again, harder to catch fast moving ships) and on top of those two nerfs they even get a 7.5% reduced cap recharge rate
Now lets look at the anti-ship ones, Precision Scourge: Damage: 135 Velocity: 3250m/s Flight Time: 5.25sec Explosion Velocityh: 1000 Explosion Radius: 75m Slows down your speed by 5% per launcher
What this means is that they are STILL slower than T1 missiles, last even less time than high damage (shorter range), and while i does have a bit better Exp. velocity and radius (making it marginally easier to hit smaller ships) the nerf to your own ship speed makes you a veritable sitting duck, if you do decide to load this kind of ammo.
So the next time you decide to whine about missiles users having it good, please try and check the facts. Yes we might be able to load the T2 ammo, but hardly anyone does it cause, as opposed to turret based weapons who only have to suffer 2 nerfs for the most parts, missiles users have three nerfs to worry about. Yes it is true that some of the T2 projectile or hybrid ammo does have range "nerfs" but seing as that their T1 counterparts also have similar "nerfs" i dont really count it as a nerf as such. High damage close range T1 projectile ammo has the same range nerf (50%) as even higher damage close range T2 ammo, Hail, does. So no change really. Also, some of the turret based ammo's nerfs only count towards the single turret where as the nerfs on the T2 missiles stack onto the ship (7.5% cap recharge reduction per launcher fx.) where Void's 25% extra cap use is non-stacking on the gun itself
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Liisa
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.06.13 12:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Liisa on 13/06/2007 12:47:25
Originally by: Dronte
So the next time you decide to whine about missiles users having it good, please try and check the facts. Yes we might be able to load the T2 ammo, but hardly anyone does it cause, as opposed to turret based weapons who only have to suffer 2 nerfs for the most parts, missiles users have three nerfs to worry about. Yes it is true that some of the T2 projectile or hybrid ammo does have range "nerfs" but seing as that their T1 counterparts also have similar "nerfs" i dont really count it as a nerf as such. High damage close range T1 projectile ammo has the same range nerf (50%) as even higher damage close range T2 ammo, Hail, does. So no change really. Also, some of the turret based ammo's nerfs only count towards the single turret where as the nerfs on the T2 missiles stack onto the ship (7.5% cap recharge reduction per launcher fx.) where Void's 25% extra cap use is non-stacking on the gun itself
Are we playing the same game?
On a Maelstrom with 800mm acs.
Hail gets a 50% optimal penalty. Correct. Reduces the optimal by 3000m It also gets a 50% falloff penalty. This hurts a lot as most of our range is falloff. Reduces the falloff by 9,6km. You also forgot the 50% tracking penalty. Oh, and the 5% capacitor recharge penalty. Which is added per gun btw. On a maelstrom with my rather normal skills it increases the recharge time from 937 seconds to 1385 seconds. Ouch, no?
All of a sudden I count 4 penalties for hail. If you discount the 50% optimal nerf, there are still 3 penalties.
If you really wish to whine, put all the facts on the table and not just the ones that support your argument. ----------------------------------
Currently pursuing a "deviant playstyle." |
twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.06.13 13:05:00 -
[15]
ROF bonuses increase DPS more than straight dmg bonuses. So realy launchers have a better bonus, unless your going for straight out insta dmg which no one does with launchers.
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El'essar Viocragh
Minmatar FSK23
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Posted - 2007.06.13 13:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Dronte Yes we might be able to load the T2 ammo, but hardly anyone does it cause, as opposed to turret based weapons who only have to suffer 2 nerfs for the most parts, missiles users have three nerfs to worry about. Yes it is true that some of the T2 projectile or hybrid ammo does have range "nerfs" but seing as that their T1 counterparts also have similar "nerfs" i dont really count it as a nerf as such. High damage close range T1 projectile ammo has the same range nerf (50%) as even higher damage close range T2 ammo, Hail, does. So no change really.
Let's take a look at:
EMP S Damage: 5 EM / 4 EXP / 2 KIN Optimal Range: -50% (per gun)
Quake S Damage: 9 EXP / 5 KIN Optimal Range: -75% (per gun) Tracking Speed: -25% (per gun) Cap Recharge: -25% (stacked on ship per gun) Max Velocity: -20% (stacked on ship per gun) ==> less range ==> harder to hit moving targets ==> 3 additional penalties (2 ship-wide) ==> 1 lost damage type
Hail S Damage: 11 EXP / 3 KIN Optimal Range: -50% (per gun) Falloff: -50% (per gun) Tracking: -50% (per gun) Cap Recharge: -10% (stacked on ship per gun) ==> less range ==> harder to hit moving targets ==> 3 additional penalties (1 ship-wide) ==> 1 lost damage type
Sounds familiar?
Yes, it looks better if we take the long range advanced projectile ammo types Barrage and Tremor. Those do not have shipwide stacking penalties and even get more range!1eleven!cos(1)!
Tremor needs that additional range because with -75% tracking on arty you hit jack in the range you normally shoot. The effective range where you get a chance to hit is reduced just as with precision heavies. Barrage has reduced tracking too and is really most useful on ships that get a falloff bonus, so you can shoot at ranges where your tracking is able to keep up again and have enough falloff to stay above 50% chance to hit at that range. And "but with projectiles you can choose your damage type" is gone too. Exp/Kin for all advanced types. Against shield tanks with 2 invul fields that is "amarr against armor" all over again, yes. Such is life.
It is specialized ammo that works for some cases and fails horribly for others. And it isn't "hello kitty wonderland" for any weapon type.
-- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim |
Kulmid
Nubs. D-L
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Posted - 2007.06.13 16:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: twit brent ROF bonuses increase DPS more than straight dmg bonuses. So realy launchers have a better bonus, unless your going for straight out insta dmg which no one does with launchers.
Thank you for mentioning this, something I was going to post if no on had yet.
~~~~~~~~~~~ Success is the time between when you do something, and when you tell a woman what you did.
"What is this RL? There is only AFK." |
Dammar
Amarr Ephorate
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Posted - 2007.06.13 16:25:00 -
[18]
Originally by: PartyVaN rabblerabblerabble
lol such epic fail...you must be proud.
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