Pages: 1 [2] 3 :: one page |
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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Janu Hull
Caldari Order of Z Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.15 16:30:00 -
[31]
No love for Empire?
Damn, man, the mission changes alone are major love for empire. The LP store instead of random offers. The ability to share group rewards with a gang (motivation across the spectrum to get people together to tackle missions they can't do alone).
Mission sharing could move a LOT of people out of the Urlen/Jita/Perimeter area, and into the L2/L3 zones. Saila/Motsu could see migrations to the lowsec L5 mission areas.
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Popsikle
Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.15 16:45:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Janu Hull No love for Empire?
Damn, man, the mission changes alone are major love for empire. The LP store instead of random offers. The ability to share group rewards with a gang (motivation across the spectrum to get people together to tackle missions they can't do alone).
Mission sharing could move a LOT of people out of the Urlen/Jita/Perimeter area, and into the L2/L3 zones. Saila/Motsu could see migrations to the lowsec L5 mission areas.
Industrialist are not mission *****s. we care little about missions and LP stores.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.06.15 16:51:00 -
[33]
To the complainers:
First the Ore capital ship when it comes will not be avaliable to empire space! Cynos are athing most industrialist don even know they exist.
Secoond. There is not much CCP can add to industry, but do things to make it more complex ..
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Popsikle
Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:10:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Popsikle on 15/06/2007 17:10:16
Originally by: Kagura Nikon To the complainers:
First the Ore capital ship when it comes will not be avaliable to empire space! Cynos are athing most industrialist don even know they exist.
Secoond. There is not much CCP can add to industry, but do things to make it more complex ..
Hi, There are such thing as low-sec captials ya know...
See heres the issue... A ratter in 0.0 can go out solo and make 30-40 mil an hour easy, with very little or no risk...
Miners, in low-sec wont make nearly that and we really cant go at it solo due to pirates and stuff like that (we can tank the rats great, but we cant really haul solo without multiple accounts, where the pvpers can rat with just one account). A capital mining vessel that has the ability to hold ore, and mine it, and ward off most pirates would be nice, and maybe then the risk of low-sec mining might be worth the reward.
They keep adding new stuff to pvp to make it more complex, to make it more dynamic, to make it more versatile why not do the same to industry?
Im not saying anyone should play eve alone, everything should be a group effort so I suggest moving the bs spawns to low-sec and changinge the bs spawns to capital spawns in 0.0, making them worth alot more but needed 4-5 people to take out for balance reasons you should NOT be able to go solo in 0.0 to do anything.
And yes, I live out of a 0.0 station, and have for a while now.
All most indy's are asking is for balance of risk vs reward and balance of "new fun stuff" for industrial toons as well as pvp toons. Remember without us industrial toons you wouldnt have ships, and without you we wouldnt have a job, so less smack talking please and more giving us industrial pilots something to do.
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justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:11:00 -
[35]
now that trovax has given some more input i can understand his point, and disapointment somehow.
BUT: first of all there is to say industrial skills DO cout quite a bit, since in pvp it's well at least recomandable to use t2 stuff, someones gotta built it, and you won't really tell me this is something a pvp char will achive kinda fast if he's skilling for pvp most of the time.
the other side of this is of course that a lot of players have industry alts wo fulfill these needs so yeah barely any big corps searches for industry players since they probably allready got one or two capable guys and if they are high skilled (mass production just to give an example) this mostly is all that it takes.
geting to another point, industry isn't as funny as pvp (or at least thats my shortend inerpretation), well destroying stuff if mostly more fun than building it, it's human nature i guess ;-)
with the ORE capital ship announced (and it was never said it will come with rev 2!!!) there is indeed something industrial players can anticipate (especialy because there isn't any further information given besides the fact that it won't be a mining ship). other than that a ship in between a industrial and a freighter would be really awesome, on the other hand rigs have given a really BIG boost to industrials (so revalations has indeed done something for industry chars too!) so it's only the lack of an alternative to transport battleships besides of a freighter or assembling and flying them that would make a "bigger" industrial necessary.
so to finaly come to an end, yeah eve's industry part is kinda boring, stills it is the best one of all the mmorpg's around and i personally coulnd't think of a way to make it more fun, but if someone can and it makes its way into the game i'll certainly be very happy.
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Popsikle
Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:14:00 -
[36]
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket now that trovax has given some more input i can understand his point, and disapointment somehow.
BUT: first of all there is to say industrial skills DO cout quite a bit, since in pvp it's well at least recomandable to use t2 stuff, someones gotta built it, and you won't really tell me this is something a pvp char will achive kinda fast if he's skilling for pvp most of the time.
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
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justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:19:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket now that trovax has given some more input i can understand his point, and disapointment somehow.
BUT: first of all there is to say industrial skills DO cout quite a bit, since in pvp it's well at least recomandable to use t2 stuff, someones gotta built it, and you won't really tell me this is something a pvp char will achive kinda fast if he's skilling for pvp most of the time.
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
yeah well thats a point altost the whole industry faction doesn't get, eve IS SUPPOSED to happen in 0.0,
ccp strives to get players to 0.0, so thats a point where i have to totaly disagree with you, i think ccp is abolutely right about this.
btw carebears should farm isk with theyr ravens anyways!! :P
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Popsikle
Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:37:00 -
[38]
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket now that trovax has given some more input i can understand his point, and disapointment somehow.
BUT: first of all there is to say industrial skills DO cout quite a bit, since in pvp it's well at least recomandable to use t2 stuff, someones gotta built it, and you won't really tell me this is something a pvp char will achive kinda fast if he's skilling for pvp most of the time.
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
yeah well thats a point altost the whole industry faction doesn't get, eve IS SUPPOSED to happen in 0.0,
ccp strives to get players to 0.0, so thats a point where i have to totaly disagree with you, i think ccp is abolutely right about this.
btw carebears should farm isk with theyr ravens anyways!! :P
I am an industrial pilot living in 0.0. I still have no access to moon minerals because the moons get mined by corps and then resold to indy pilots in empire for a ton of isk. So my point still stands that you either have to be head of a corp/alliance or buy it for outrageous prices in empire.
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Derovius Vaden
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:39:00 -
[39]
Who says CCP wants the players in 0.0? If this were true, the entire game would be 0.0; its not, therefore we have our first made up fact of the day.
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Mdram
Caldari Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:47:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Mdram on 15/06/2007 17:46:42
Originally by: Popsikle trimmed for length
I am an industrial pilot living in 0.0. I still have no access to moon minerals because the moons get mined by corps and then resold to indy pilots in empire for a ton of isk. So my point still stands that you either have to be head of a corp/alliance or buy it for outrageous prices in empire.
if a corp is mining moons in your alliance space take it up with the alliance. if they wont help get a new alliance, its called teamwork. you help one another.
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Mdram
Caldari Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.06.15 17:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Popsikle
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
hhmmmm everthing easy to get, then whats the fun. mre vauluable resources should be rarer and harder to obtian
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justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:01:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Who says CCP wants the players in 0.0? If this were true, the entire game would be 0.0; its not, therefore we have our first made up fact of the day.
ccp says so, ever since ^^
there are various dev blogs wehre ccp stated they strive to encourage people to go to 0.0, cause thats really what makes eve what it is.
of course they dont strive to have ALL players out in 0.0, since this would gravely reduce the playerbase, everyone needs secure space to make a start in eve or to relax a little form 0.0!
so before you start making accusations (and saying that i yust made it up is one imo) i would suggest you shoudl first inform youreself waht kind of game youre playing, maybe read some dev blogs once in a while, or just stfu ^^
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:08:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: justcheckingthemarket now that trovax has given some more input i can understand his point, and disapointment somehow.
BUT: first of all there is to say industrial skills DO cout quite a bit, since in pvp it's well at least recomandable to use t2 stuff, someones gotta built it, and you won't really tell me this is something a pvp char will achive kinda fast if he's skilling for pvp most of the time.
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
"Industry" should no more be entirely solo-able than PvP is entirely solo-able; it's all about the ganging.
You may have heard of a 0.0 phenomena known as "renter corps". These corps pay a fairly reasonable fee to whatever PvPers happen to control the space, in order to use it. I know at least one corp who rents space solely to moon mine- they rent a piece of space that the owner can't be bothered to run POS's in, and they mine the moons. They have POS's doing complex reactions, and they ship the finished results in to Empire to sell (although their land lord has a few standing orders with them on a first dibs basis).
Believe it or not, THATS industrial work. It's industrial work that requires a corporation of partners working together, communication with other political entities, and all manner of intertwining business deals and "contracts". But it's still industrial work. True, the paying rent is going to eat in to your profits a bit, and its also true that you may have to start at the bottom and work your way up before you're trusted with the best moons around. But as is corporate life, in EVE and RL.
And as someone who's been in 0.0 for a decent amount of time, I can assure you that there will always be "claimed" space that is desperately under used, that most alliances are just desperate to start exploiting. If you think BoB is moon mining every single bit of the blue coloured bit of the map all by themselves, you'd be highly mistaken.
You can no more experience all of the industrial side of EVE staying in Empire than you can experience all of Exploration or PvP. --------
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Popsikle
Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:12:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Mdram
Originally by: Popsikle
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
hhmmmm everthing easy to get, then whats the fun. mre vauluable resources should be rarer and harder to obtian
So what items do you use in PvP that are almost impossible to get? A titan, maybe a Mom... What else is almost impossible to get form a pvpers standpoint?
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Mdram
Caldari Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:25:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Mdram
Originally by: Popsikle
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
hhmmmm everthing easy to get, then whats the fun. mre vauluable resources should be rarer and harder to obtian
So what items do you use in PvP that are almost impossible to get? A titan, maybe a Mom... What else is almost impossible to get form a pvpers standpoint?
thats easy, isk. pvp is expensive, t2 stuff will drain your wallet quickley. pvpr's have to rat/mine to support thier habit. oh and claimed space is no gimme either. you have to rent space as stated in an earlier post or claim your own. its neded to make the isk. every profession has to sacrifice something to support thier main interest.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:25:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Popsikle
Originally by: Mdram
Originally by: Popsikle
All the materials to build t2 comps comes from moons. Most of the moons for the good materials are in 0.0 and are mined by pvpers with industrial alts. Trying to get access to GOOD moon minerals unless you run a corp or an alliance without paying an arm and a leg is almost impossible.
Buff the moons in lowsec please! Make moon mining worth it ;p
hhmmmm everthing easy to get, then whats the fun. mre vauluable resources should be rarer and harder to obtian
So what items do you use in PvP that are almost impossible to get? A titan, maybe a Mom... What else is almost impossible to get form a pvpers standpoint?
You checked the price on best named modules recently? Officer loot? Seen how much a HAC (about as good as a BC) sells for these days? --------
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Mhaerdirne Solveig
Combustion Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:28:00 -
[47]
Originally by: MarKand
Well, the story can be made long as ever, but I really would like to see some real "new" stuff for the Science & Industri side, basicly what I am asking for is the Dread for Science/Industri.
don't really need more than this here dominix and let me tell you it sure is cool
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:33:00 -
[48]
We started some initial design work in this area last week, as it happens. No promises or timescales, but you have not been forgotten.
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demonfurbie
Minmatar Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2007.06.15 18:59:00 -
[49]
the faction mining laser upgrades look nice
i know people feel left out of Rev II but working for a mmorpg is alot of hard work they cant please every one but they try to... on a large scale as eve not every one can get exactly what they want... i know things such as development have to be done in stages. its alot of code to try and get it all at once. what would you like to see all 3 parts of rev at once ... then it would be like getting a whole new game, i like the 3 diff stages of rev lets you adapt.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:11:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Mdram
* Tech 2 Ammo can now be invented. * Tech 2 Drones can now be invented.
nope nothing at all
If someone can't think of how to make money off of those two, they should just mothball their industry character now.
T2 ammo even with blueprint is not that profitable, just think about the long manufacturing time. So with invention it will be only worse.
The T2 ammo invention is a goodie and a nice thing to have, but nothing to get rich with
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Typheonic
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:16:00 -
[51]
To speak to some of the things I am seeing. The last few patches have, as they should, added facilities to refine or improve the tools available to combatants to do what they do. The options are constantly expanded for a combatant to allow them to kill other players, run better missions, kill more NPC's and still survive the occasional pirate encounter. There have even been additions to give combatants more opportunities to engage in piracy. Freighters drop loot now, warp core stabilizers impose rigid penalty for fitting, and there are now tech II propulsion inhibitor modules without equivalent counters. These are just some examples.
The problem is from an industrialist point of view for every advance we get there are at least three advances to the combatant side of the house. Combine that with the reality that an industrialists life is more dangerous now and that some of the industry improvements help combatants more than us. Invention is an excellent example of a new addition for industry with the intended side effect of lowering Tech 2 prices for PvP combatants.
I think if you expanded the various tools a trader or industrial player had at even half the rate seen in combat refinements you might have a different picture of empire space. If you added freighters with jump drives confined to low-sec you might see them being used to help mitigate the powerful gate camps that can be seen in choke point systems. If you added mining ships actually designed to survive the rigors of low-sec life and restricted them to 0.4 systems you would see them being used.
Originally by: Thommy The problem however is that very every addition to the mining related industrial aspect (more barges, super miners etc) it will only increase problems related to macro'ing. Sure the 100's of real miners that will use it will be very happy but not if they notice that the 50% more yield supermodule was used on every single one of the 1000's of macro's running which means isk value sinks even lower.
What Thommy points out here is true, but I am forced to ask two questions. First, should a large population of legitimate players be punished/neglected because there is a small number of abusers? Second, I would also say that making a new ôuberö mining vessel is not really on the mind of most serious miners. Instead the concerns of survivability and logistics are foremost on our minds. If I recall the discussions regarding the capital industrial did center around a concept that would use a jump drive and be confined to 0.4 systems and lower, and that would not be a more powerful mining ship.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:16:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Mdram
* Tech 2 Ammo can now be invented. * Tech 2 Drones can now be invented.
nope nothing at all
If someone can't think of how to make money off of those two, they should just mothball their industry character now.
T2 ammo even with blueprint is not that profitable, just think about the long manufacturing time. So with invention it will be only worse.
The T2 ammo invention is a goodie and a nice thing to have, but nothing to get rich with
Drones on the other hand...
Seen how much Hammerhead IIs sell for these days? --------
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Typheonic
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:20:00 -
[53]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale We started some initial design work in this area last week, as it happens. No promises or timescales, but you have not been forgotten.
I appreciate this response and I hope we get the opportunity to hear about these changes soon. It is encouraging when we hear from developers.
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T'Laar Bok
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:21:00 -
[54]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale We started some initial design work in this area last week, as it happens. No promises or timescales, but you have not been forgotten.
Soooo..... about 3 years then.... if we're lucky. |
Trovax
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:21:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Trovax on 15/06/2007 19:20:38
Originally by: CCP Greyscale We started some initial design work in this area last week, as it happens. No promises or timescales, but you have not been forgotten.
YAY!! \o/ Theres that light at the end of the tunnel!!
As Typh said....its nice to hear from a DEV once in a while.
Thanks Grey.
Now for further clarification. I dont want ANYTHING nerfed, sacrifced, removed, or anything of the like.
What i am saying is...
Imagine you have a Fisherman and a Soldier.
The fisherman goes out to sea, and hauls in a load of fish to supply a small part of a population, BUT he only has limited skill in defense. Sure he can get himself out of a fight, but he is not one to wage war. He would need a soldier in rder to chase people from his patch of sea.
Then you got your Soldier. He knows how to fight, wage war, tactics, etc... BUT he only has limited fishing skills. Enough to feed himself in an emergency. He would need a fisherman who knew what he was doing in order to gather more fish.
This is how the Industry and Combatant roles in EvE should be. A clear definition between the two.
As for modules/ships. And this is just an example. Instead of makking it soley possible for pirates to gank a ship at 300km with whatever guns they use, there should be a module or set of skills for a indy allowing him to eventually also be able to Target Jam at 300km. Thus balancing out the odds. The rest is down to chance. One of you has the right setup....the other dosent. Or even make it longer lock times depending on how far away a ship is. Theres turret falloff, why not have sensor falloff? Of course, if you get set upon by 30 Nighthawks whilst in your hauler then yeah....fair play. But at least give us a fighting chance.
The idea im trying to get at is to make it a balanced enviroment and not allow everyone to be able to do everything. Or at least, make the skill training longer for the more 'in depth' trade specific skills as i mentioned earlier. Seperate the industrialists from the Combatants. Give everyone a fair share of the EvE experience.
"I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant" |
Shameless Avenger
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:36:00 -
[56]
I disagree with the opinion that nothing can be done for the industrialists. A lot of things can be done.
Make it easier for people on the BPO research bussiness. Lots of things can be done there. Provide more market tools or provide a way to export *more* data from both market and wallet, so that players could make their own tools. When placing a region wide purchase order, give an option similar to "Region wide except low sec" Mining missions.
...and there are many more ideas, most of them already posted on the forums. I remember one about a "procurement agent". NPC just like mission and location agents. But this one would accept some kind of shopping list and will access all region markets to get you the stuff, for a fee of course. And there was another one about highlighting the map with market activity instead of pvp activity. Lots of ideas. |
Szprinkoth Sponsz
Chaos Reborn
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:39:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Mdram
* Tech 2 Ammo can now be invented. * Tech 2 Drones can now be invented.
nope nothing at all
If someone can't think of how to make money off of those two, they should just mothball their industry character now.
T2 ammo even with blueprint is not that profitable, just think about the long manufacturing time. So with invention it will be only worse.
The T2 ammo invention is a goodie and a nice thing to have, but nothing to get rich with
Yeah, since there's no medium tech 2 autocannon ammo that sells for 1000 isk/unit for example, there's no profit.
Do the canary spin! |
Typheonic
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:41:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Trovax
some suggestions
I don't completely agree with the polarization of combatant and industrialist you describe there Trovax. I don't think you will see that much separation either, simply because you can train anything in EVE. It is then up to you as to what you focus on. I would much rather simply have additional tools to produce, move goods, evade pirates, and gather resources. Hopefully we will get things like a mining capital with a jump drive, command modules, and perhaps a mobile refinery. Maybe a low sec freighter with a jump drive, a salvage ship with bonuses would be nice too, or even salvage drones. Basicly things to work towards after Exhumer V or racial industrial V.
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justcheckingthemarket
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:42:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Trovax The idea im trying to get at is to make it a balanced enviroment and not allow everyone to be able to do everything. Or at least, make the skill training longer for the more 'in depth' trade specific skills as i mentioned earlier. Seperate the industrialists from the Combatants.
see thats something i can't relate to.
a big point why i am playing eve is that everione in fact CAN do everything and hat it is possible to have a kind of allround skilled char that still is somehow efficient, i don't think more diversety is sensible. you usually have youre atributes to comfort the skill training related to the stuff you up to do, industrialists have mem/int, combatants perc/will, thats where diversity starts. if you have all youre atributes well balanced you will never be able to specialise in a time frame that is anyhow competitive, but again it's possible and thats great!
from my point the "in depth" industry skills take long enough to train as it is, i can't imagine someone dedicated to pvp to really leran them just in between, but this is a point that kan be discussed, if you ive some examples with skills do not take enough time to learn one could see your point.
but honestly a really dedicated industrialist is seperated well enough from a combatant imho, i don't see the point
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Xiaodown
Lyran Procurement
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Posted - 2007.06.15 19:44:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Mdram
Originally by: Trovax What im on about is the severe lack of upgrades to Industrial ships/modules, and possible oppertunities for an indutrial corp.
But i also need the resources to build the said items.
what upgrades do you suggest?
resources are getting cheaper all the time, zyd has fallen way too much, what more would you like there?
i really wanna know, i think the industrialist is making a killing now with the low min prices, possible invention. yes t2 ship prices have dropped, but only due to more people being able to sell them
Well aside from the fact that zyd has tripled in price overnight, due to the patch notes, if you were to ask me what I'd like to see?
I'd like to see public slots in POS's be able to be used by the public. I'd like to run my own mini-station.
I know there are a lot of corps with research POSs that have nothing left to research, and yet, it's problematic for people to trust them to do research for them.
~Xiao
-- Lyran procurement is offering tritanium compression services to 0.0 alliances. Free transport to 0.5+ systems, 1 jump into a 0.4 sys for 10%.
Contact me for details. Minimums apply. |
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