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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
2
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Posted - 2012.01.09 06:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
Dear CCP,
May I first off say that I spend most of my time (about 95% o it) flying frigs/AF's/Faction frigs and consider myself able to give a meaningful response to this thread. So may I start with:
WHAT THE @#%^ ARE YOU THINKING?
Where shall I start. Yes these are balanced... but only with each other. By adding a new slot to each ship you have now taken something all ready powerful and just making it so that no sane person would fly anything else in low sec other than one of these. The exception to this is of course the retri. The retri needs a mid slot, but the solution is to either take off a high slot whih it doesn't need or remove a low slot (I would lean towards the latter as the retri is way over tanked, this is not a issue currently as it is only really used for pve).
Frig fights are meant to be fast, they are meant to be wild, and most of all exhilarating. By adding more HP you are now drawing out these fights, making more 1v1GÇÖs able to turn into ganks from reinforcements arriving. I am not criticizing that playing style, but if that is what the goal is, a good plan should be executed to make is successful, not adding more HP. Both the proposed new slots and HP will make it so that all other ships that arenGÇÖt a AF will have a more difficult time killing them. The destroyer buff essentially would be for nothing, as now any AF could take on a destroyer due to its insane tanking ability.
Last major issue are the bonusGÇÖ. While I was and still am a advocate for adding an additional bonus to the AFGÇÖs, there is no written rule that the bonusGÇÖ all need to be +5% (or more) per level. AFGÇÖs all ready have a HUGE tank. The crazy resistances of assault frig needs to be taken into account. At the moment, they are not bad, in fact, I like flying them. But for me I always thought that a fourth bonus along the lines of +2% per level would give them that little push they needed, while not breaking the balance of the whole game (and more importantly, the low sec experience). Again, destroyers, cruisers and any bc not fit specifically to fight frigs would be very hard pressed to survive with such huge bonusGÇÖ.
Now that all of the bad is taken care of, we can concentrate on the GÇ£mehGÇ¥
A +10 CPU is not game breaking. In some cases it will be more helpful on some ships than others, but itGÇÖs not game breaking.
The MWD bonus doesnGÇÖt help most low sec solo pvpers, and appears to be geared towards null sec players. This is a fine role bonus, but should only be applied if the other aspects of the AFGÇÖs are not hugely buffed. AFGÇÖs would destroy the roles of interceptors if they maintained their HP, slot and added bonus. So I am not against this, but it does need to be kept in mind that interceptors need to be kept important. (maybe a 33% instead of 50% would be better).
If I were to change AFGÇÖs, my changes would be the following.
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Give each frig +10CPU (I see no real issue in that)
Remove a low slot from the retri and give it a new med slot. Again I stress this as the retri is the best tank of any of the frigs in game right now, which is fine since it is a PVE ship, but if you give it a PvP role, it needs to be balanced.
Give each AF a +2% bonus per level to something (it could depend on the AFGÇÖs, or give them a universal bonus of +2% to AB speed, making them better with both ab and mwd).
...
The most important thing about this change is that it doesnGÇÖt make them the be all end all of the game, they can be made better without making them overpowered.
Thanks for your consideration CCP
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
4
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Posted - 2012.01.09 09:07:00 -
[2] - Quote
@ Bloodpetal Your neut and web ideas will indeed make them overpowered. You are forgetting several ship classes. Destroyers that can fit a web and a neut (ie thrasher) will now have nothing to play against the AFs (we're assuming no other change is made here, as they would just be insanely overpowered with the current ideas plus yours). Now the thrasher even with its web and neut going will run itself dry on cap while having the AF fly cricles around it.
Destroyers are meant to be tough against frigs, and that includes T2. No frig pilot should be able to approach a destroyer without a specially made fit to deal with a destroyer (ie the cookie cutter fits should not work).
Then there is the whole faction frigs to think about, all of them will now pale in comparison. The empire faction frigs more so than the pirate faction frigs, but in any event, these ships which are meant to be near T2 will now be the equivalent to what the T1 hulls are to the current T2 hulls.
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
6
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Posted - 2012.01.09 20:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
@ Tawa Suyo
I think you are missing one of the biggest points made by DARKSTAR. Comparatively the AFs will all be balanced with respect to each other, but as soon as you consider any other ship, they are now overpowered. Destroyers, T1 frigs, faction frigs, cruisers and to some extent battlecruisers will all suffer for this. Faction frigs are meant to be near equal, destroyers are meant to be superior, and T1 frigs are meant to be beatable (all ready the case).
Now I'm not saying that a T2 frig can't beat a destroyer now, but the pilot has to do some serious fitting considerations to take one on. Faction frigs are almost on par with T2 frigs because they don't have the T2 resists, but cost a significant amount to obtain. Essentially what is happening is we are making all AFs similar to a Hookbill, just giving it T2 resists. They are indeed balanced amongst each other, but its the consideration of the rest of the game that is concerning.
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
6
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Posted - 2012.01.10 06:53:00 -
[4] - Quote
@ Prometheus Exenthal
I am sure you realize that you are trying to put AF's into a role that they are not supposed to fill right?
AF's are meant for small skirmish and solo pvp. You are throwing them into a role that is meant to be filled by other ships. Of course a frigate is not going to survive if it is called primary. So don't try throwing it into that situation because it doesn't belong. It's like wondering why my battleship doesn't mine as fast as a hulk. Obvious answer is to boost the mining yields on a bs right? NO, GET A SHIP THAT FITS THE SCENARIO.
And as it is, the scenario that fits AF's is solo and small gang PvP. So testing it in other environments should not be necessary, an interesting thought experiment at most, but not pivotal for finding the strengths and weaknesses of the ship.
On that note, the extra slots can go, the extra HP can go, the added bonus's are too powerful and should be made much smaller, the role bonus doesn't really help the role that a AF has, the +10CPU is not a game breaking addition. The one exception to the above is the retri, remove a high slot add a mid.
Also I agree with you on this:
@ Thorasta Tithe
NO
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
7
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Posted - 2012.01.10 08:56:00 -
[5] - Quote
@ Prometheus Exenthal
I basically agree with what dark star is saying. 0.0 doesn't need more toys at the expense of messing up the AFs current role (though I admit toys are fun).
LetGÇÖs compare this situation to cutlery shall we? LetGÇÖs say I have a butter knife. It is perfect at what it does, it can cut and spread the butter etc. Now someone wants to know why they can't use it to cut through a steak. So they sharpen it and make it serrated. Now it can cut through a steak, but is not longer able to do its original function as well. This is not an improvement, what you needed was a knife meant for cutting meat in the first place. There is a reason a butter knife is god awful at everything else, itGÇÖs meant to cut butter. The frigs of 0.0 are cloaky ones, and interceptors. The frigs of low sec are AF's, don't take away the only viable class of low sec T2 pvp frigs. Ships are meant to have strengths and weaknesses. By buffing up all of the weaknesses of one class you are not improving the game.
Also, the example you gave comparing HACs to BCGÇÖs and AFGÇÖs to cruisers is invalid. Compare AFGÇÖs to destroyers as that is the equivalent coparison, and youGÇÖll see they are about on par, with a slight edge to the destroyers (which is good).
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
10
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Posted - 2012.01.10 09:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
@ m0cking bird
Read some of my (and others) previous posts. It addresses your points. I also advise reading those of Alex Medvedov, essentially lord of the Jaguar.
:P |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
10
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Posted - 2012.01.11 04:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
@ Prom
That wolf fit is what I would call terrible. I should hope you can beat it with almost any ship. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
10
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Posted - 2012.01.11 04:14:00 -
[8] - Quote
no wolf would ever be able to hit your ceptor with that set up. He has not done a proper job at plugging his weakness. A point that you exploited expertly. My point is that you can not use this to say that the wolf needs work. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.11 05:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
Michael Harari wrote: I have never seen sylvous outside of a frigate. Etc etc
Lies, I totally rock the pod from time t time.
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.11 07:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: If someone wanted to bring an AF on a frigate roam outside of Empire's padded cell, I would laugh in their face and not reimburse their loss.
I would be right there laughing with you. And I would then advise that they use a ship that actually suits the task (interceptor, dram, etc) instead of taking a ship not intended for that role out on a suicide run. |
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Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.19 19:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: A tracking bonus is a means to mitigate damage against larger targets' drones.
Have you considered the ramifications of a tracking bonus? ItGÇÖs not like your tracking goes up only against drones. You're making it too powerful.
Also about AF's being expensive in both skills and cost... thatGÇÖs kind of the point of T2 isn't it? You get improved performance, but the cost is time and isk. If your ship is not surviving, you are either fitting it wrong or not using it for the right purpose. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.20 02:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: And I think you misunderstood what I was trying to say with the cost of the T2 ships. My point was that there are people complaining that their significantly cheaper T1 frigates won't be able to compete with the significantly more expensive ships in the game. No ****.
My bad, I totally misunderstood what you were saying as far as cost goes. Yeah, its good now, T1 versions don't stand a chance, and that's the way it should be.
m0cking bird wrote:Start removing slots CCP!
This^^
With the exception of the retri, remove a high slot and give it a mid. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.22 18:06:00 -
[13] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Anyone ever stumble upon an arty jag setup that actually worked? Yes actually, its a fairly popular/effective ship. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.02.05 18:59:00 -
[14] - Quote
I'd say low sec pvp isn't the same. Its gotten worse. Anything not AF is no longer viable for solo work (frig sized of course). I used to be able to encounter the whole spectrum of faction ships, but after testing on sisi, I can see why they are not being used... THey just can't cope with the boosted AF's even though the pirate faction ships are meant to be T1 equivalents and the navy faction ships were supposed to be comparable but not there.
Way to make pvp in low sec less exciting CCP.
Oh, AF vs AF takes way too long, should be over way sooner. |
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