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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Rhadit
x13 Raiden.
5
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Posted - 2012.01.22 13:28:00 -
[1021] - Quote
coercer shuold get 2 mids. . ...a.a..a.a..
Prom is always right. |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:59:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Anyone ever stumble upon an arty jag setup that actually worked? Before the jag CPU buff I was liking this:
High: 280mm II x 3
Mid: Limited 1MN MWD Small cap booster II PWNG TP Warp Disruptors II
Low: MAPC II TE II x 3
Rigs: Projecile burst Projectile Collision
I might swap out the cap booster and TP for a small shield extender and a cap recharger now. I'll see if it fits when I get home. |
Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus Dead Man's Hand.
12
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Posted - 2012.01.22 18:06:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Anyone ever stumble upon an arty jag setup that actually worked? Yes actually, its a fairly popular/effective ship. |
Lunkwill Khashour
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
52
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 18:23:00 -
[1024] - Quote
IMO (AF4 here), AF's don't need another slot. They need a 4th bonus and a mass reduction. The Retribution needs some serious love (which is also related to dps/grid and dps/cap of small lasers)
On the issue of MWD's. Interceptors were changed around to MWD sig reduction bonus. AF's are changed around to a MWD sig reduction bonus. An often suggested buff for EAF's is, a MWD sig reduction bonus. IMO, the 500% increase on a MWD is way too much (or the tracking formula fails a tracking smaller targets, see titan tracking cries) This is most obvious on ships that rely on damage avoidance as a tank i.e., frigs. As it stands, a MWD sig penalty of 250ish % across the board (all sizes) would be more appropiate. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
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Posted - 2012.01.22 19:28:00 -
[1025] - Quote
It always made good sense to me for the non-cloaky T2 frigates to get a sig bonus. ie: interceptors, afs, eafs CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
M1k3y Koontz
Taxes Suck Inc.
18
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Posted - 2012.01.22 20:10:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Ill admit i haven't read through the 52 pages up to this point so this has probably been said before but it true.
Wolf: it doesn't need a 5th low slot, if it MUST have another slot a med would help it with range control which is what it doesnt have. An arty wolf is a joke, I fly one, and the wolf should remain an auto platform. It doesn't need an armor HP buff. A Wolf with more tank will just make it a tanking Catalyst, which would make it FAR too overpowered.
Jaguar: Doesn't need another low slot or even mid slot was was suggested, the tracking bonus will help it with its arties but a fourth turret would help with those arties as well.
MWD BONUS??? Every T1 frigate in the game packs a warp scrambler so as soon as an assault ships gets within 8km of one its going to going to lose the MWD and therefore making the bonus useles. Afterburner bonus would be a better buff, something like 10% bonus to speed or level if it can be fit or a flat 50% role bonus.
How much herp could a herp derp herp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Tolstoyevski Tsuyasa
They That Are
0
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Posted - 2012.01.22 20:16:00 -
[1027] - Quote
People complain an extra slot to certain ships won't help if the grid or CPU isn't boosted, others are worried of a bonus to AB that would make it too OP.
But what about making the AF role bonus, Fitting a Small AB cost No Grid/CPU. Basically, making their new role bonus the ability fly exactly how they do now; With the inclusion of a free-fitted AB? |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:40:00 -
[1028] - Quote
That wouldn't solve the problem of them being slow and fat, and severely limits their use to ABs only. MWD bonus solves the first issue (should you choose to fit one), but doesn't limit the users on their fits.
AB fits benefit from being able to fit larger tanks with better cap and fitment. MWD fits benefit from mobility outside of empire space, but sacrificing some tank/damage. Both ways have their advantages/disadvantages, but AFs are no longer limited to the one. CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
Lilly Shiroimozu
SyNgeN-Z
11
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Posted - 2012.01.22 22:46:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Wolf/jag/ishkur still look the best.
Hawk still looks the worst and is still unfittable properly compared to the others. |
Ormaz
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.01.22 22:58:00 -
[1030] - Quote
Lilly Shiroimozu wrote:Wolf/jag/ishkur still look the best.
Hawk still looks the worst and is still unfittable properly compared to the others.
Explain how the Hawk is not on equal ground with the other T2 because claiming without an example fit does not bring a possible needed fix to anyone's attention. |
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Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.22 23:04:00 -
[1031] - Quote
I'll take the category 'Didn't read the thread' for 200 Alex. The Jaguar went from top of the pile to bottom. And the Enyo moved so far ahead of the Ishkur in the DPS department it isn't even funny. The biggest impression I got on SISSI was how close all the AF were. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
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Posted - 2012.01.22 23:42:00 -
[1032] - Quote
The Jag actually isn't awful now The extra shields & cpu helped it a fair bit. CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
Ormaz
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.01.22 23:43:00 -
[1033] - Quote
I put together a Hawk with the EFT tool update this requires a 4% CPU implant to fit although it was a quick improvement to a standard fit, so I am sure some mods can be swapped to get more CPU.
Overdrive Injector II Internal Force Field Array
Medium Shield Booster II Invulnerability Field II Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters J5b Phased Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I Small Capacitor Booster II
Rocket Launcher II x4 Small 'Knave" Energy Drain
Small Anit-EM Screen Reinforcer I x2
It has 6.6k EHP and 158 DPS with kinetic with a 177 DPS tank. Outside of blob warfare this looks more effective at what it was intended for and still easily dispatched by destroyers and larger hulls. I have read all 52 pages of this and not much effort has been put into posting fits and stats of these alleged inferior ships.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
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Posted - 2012.01.22 23:52:00 -
[1034] - Quote
People were trying to argue that the Hawk has become overpowered not underpowered. I don't think Lily actually looked at what the Hawk is now capable of CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
73
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Posted - 2012.01.22 23:53:00 -
[1035] - Quote
<3 to the new harpy in gangs. Also the jag became my new dram for tackle. I actually feel bad for the enyo and retri as they got the smallest useful boost. I thought the +1 mid on the enyo was gonna be totally ****, but outside of "lets 1v1 dood!!" scenarios I have been underwhelmed. |
Ormaz
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 00:16:00 -
[1036] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:<3 to the new harpy in gangs. Also the jag became my new dram for tackle. I actually feel bad for the enyo and retri as they got the smallest useful boost. I thought the +1 mid on the enyo was gonna be totally ****, but outside of "lets 1v1 dood!!" scenarios I have been underwhelmed.
I do not understand why the additional mid on the Enyo may be underwhelming it was an awesome ship before the changes just lacked a mid for EWAR, and a web is always nice for dispatching drones. As for the Retribution I have flown one in a long time and can't make a substantiated comment about what the changes do for it except now it can use a prop and tackle. I am curious what changes would you expect for the Enyo that you think bring it on par with the others in fleet scenarios. |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
265
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Posted - 2012.01.23 04:41:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:It always made good sense to me for the non-cloaky T2 frigates to get a sig bonus. ie: interceptors, afs, eafs
I'm going to derail. I've read some of your ideas on another forum. Some are quite appealing. Trading the T2 resists of EAF over to the combat recons of the same class is a great, simple idea. I also like the concept of EAF being the counterpart to their AF cousins. The extra powergrid to fit a tank I'm on board with. The Hyena getting more web range is also appropriate. It is impossible to use that ship when the ideal spot for it - 10km to 26km - is often the easiest kill zone.
Other ideas I'm not excited about. The EAFs are larger then all other frigates. (Hell, the Thrasher is smaller then some now.) This makes them horrendously squishy. I can squeeze a medium shield extender and DC onto a hyena. It nets about 5.7k EHP while stealing from the ship's e-war capabilities at the same time. Also - at 51m the Hyena is the SMALLEST eaf. With the same MWD bonus the AF have it would 'only' be 178.5m while MWD. That's simply not good enough. The bonus is sufficient for a ship like the wolf because it starts with a signature of 33m and has a raw 422 shields, 903 armour, and 774 structure with full T2 resists. The hyena? 498, 469, and 258 respectively. At 51 signature. Not even in the same class. They need a more hit points in general and the signature of their T1 counterpart. The Hyena, for example, would be 44m. That's still large for a frigate but workable.
The ships are all cap hungry too. Their bonuses are horribly thought out currently. The hyena has a MWD cap bonus. The Keres has two cap conservation bonuses. The Kitsune has two. The sentinel has one. They cry out for a 25% cap regeneration bonus as a role. So here's how that would work -
Hyena - TP and MWD sig radius reduction. Web range (30%) and 3% sig reduction bonus as EAF. 25% cap recharge bonus. 44m sig radius. (37.5m at lvl 5 EAF. 131m with MWD on.) Give it 650 Armour and 450 Structure. Enough PG to fit a 400mm plate. Decrease it's speed as you wanted. Swap the T2 resists. No drone. No projectile bonus. (Really?!?) Increase lock range to Vigil status.
The other ships? Take off one of the cap bonuses in exchange for the cap role bonus. Throw on your MWD role bonus if desired. Adjust hit points and such. Profit. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
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Posted - 2012.01.23 07:02:00 -
[1038] - Quote
I only mentioned the thought in passing. I'd rather discuss the EAFs in a separate thread (ie: that one) rather than fly off topic here
And just since you mentioned it, they aren't supposed to be tanky ships. Their tanks are EWAR, so they only really need to be able to deal with the occasional drones. 60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability. CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
143
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Posted - 2012.01.23 17:59:00 -
[1039] - Quote
BTW, how does the tracking bonus help in the supposed role of an Assault frig to take on Cruisers? Is the assault frigs role really to tackle larger ships? If it is, then create some space for other frigs by removing this bonus. |
Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 19:25:00 -
[1040] - Quote
Tracking takes care of drones which is one of the first lines of defense that larger ships have. CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
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Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue MeatSausage EXPRESS
428
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Posted - 2012.01.23 19:33:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Soooo, which ships are the clear winners here? I can't fly all four race's ships with maximum ability due to only 30m SP on this char, so I can't compare them personally with max skills and implants across the board.
So far I think that Gallente is the most underwhelming. The Enyo should have kept it's 200 HP increase in addition to the other changes. The Ishkur's 10% drone HP bonus is again very unimpressive. Very disappointing. The extra low slot is nice, too bad there's no CPU increase to allow it to be fully utilized. I'm a pirate in a pirate's body. -á Intelligence shouldn't be free. -á-á-áMining, reloaded.
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Jerick Ludhowe
Purification of Eden XIN DOA'ED
54
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Posted - 2012.01.23 20:57:00 -
[1042] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote: 60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability.
Wow random numbers there....
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X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate Villore Accords
143
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Posted - 2012.01.23 21:08:00 -
[1043] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Tracking takes care of drones which is one of the first lines of defense that larger ships have. Really? Assault frigs can already easily tank small drones long enough to kill them, and they can already kill those same drones.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
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Posted - 2012.01.23 21:11:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: 60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability. Wow random numbers there.... doesnt help that the info and research for those particular numbers are from a different thread on a different forum
CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
Cuko
Deadman W0nderland The 99 Percent
7
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Posted - 2012.01.23 23:30:00 -
[1045] - Quote
Final conclusion:
I had intended to write this on the release day of Crucible 1.1. However, I'll be busy in real life and with in game responsibilities for the foreseeable future. This is more focused towards solo pvp.
There's no serious difference in damage between viable Enyo and Ishkur set-ups. A more balanced Enyo (400 damage per second heated) set-up versus a Glass Cannon-Enyo (455 damage per second heated). The balanced Enyo set-up wins everytime. When engaging Interceptors, navy and pirate frigates. The Enyo wins hands down (exception, Dramiel, Hookbill, Cruor and Imperial Navy Slicer). Versus 2 Rifters (130 damage per second, 5000 ehp). Glass cannon set-up wins.
(I Tested all assault frigates against 2 Rifters, 2 Thrashers, 1 - 2 Rupture, 1 - 2 Hurricanes and I've watched others one versus one in assault ships against most frigates).
The Ishkur with a active defence (300 damage per second no heat) stomps on both set-ups.Not to mention you're able to put together a more balanced glass cannon-Ishkur (370 damage per second heated and damage selection because of drones).
Many will ignore certain setups and will focus on defence (active). Not to mention applied and projected damage. Many assault ships able to field massive defences. Are able to do 250 - 320 damage per second. Some assault ships are able to mitigate 2 Thrashers worth of damage long enough to destroy both ships. Any non-assault ship (frigate) not able to dictate range (run away) within warp scrambler range (afterburner or dual propulsion). Will be annihilated. The Jaguar, Vengeance and Hawk are exceptions. However, a Hawk and Vengeance are able to do 250 - 290 damage per second, with lesser defences.
The Harpy is basically a Drake: Active mitigation of damage (300 damage per second heated), long range-8000ehp 200 damage per second @ 23,000m (heated), 15,000ehp (300 damage per second heated). The Harpy and Retribution superior @ range. However, a Artillery Jaguar is able to do 110 damage per second @ 20,000m and has superior mobility (works real well with a web).
Vengeace is just a BEAST!
Hawk is a Hawk and will have complete ability to dictate range, within warp scrambler range or just BEAST TANK.
The Wolf and Jaguar will get sh!ted on by non Minmatar assault ships within warp scrambler range.
With that all said. The most viable FLEET assault frigates will be the Jaguar and Harpy.
This is how I ranked them in the end below...
Ranked: Edited (Fail typos**)
Close range (under 9,000m) - (1) Ishkur (2) Vengeance (3) Enyo (4) Hawk (5) Harpy (mirrors Enyo, minus tracking) (6) Jaguar (everything can be done better by ships above (alot like a Harpy), minus capless weapon system and superior mobility) (7) Wolf (alot of assault ships are able to do the same or better and have superior active defence set-ups) (8) Retribution
Long range (20,000m or more) - (1) Retribution (2) Harpy (May be superior to a Retribution @ range, with superior defences, dual stasis webifier or dual propulsion) (3) Hawk (standard missile launcher and superior defences) (4) Jaguar (5) Wolf
-proxyyyy |
Jerick Ludhowe
Purification of Eden XIN DOA'ED
54
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Posted - 2012.01.23 23:40:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Prometheus Exenthal wrote: 60% off their MWD sig is a ~40% increase in survivability. Wow random numbers there.... doesnt help that the info and research for those particular numbers are from a different thread on a different forum
Post the research and I'll start tearing those over generalized numbers you posted apart.
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Prometheus Exenthal
mnemonic.
419
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Posted - 2012.01.24 01:01:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Sweet vacuum proxyyyy Jerick, read the thread on FHC
CSM Candidate & PVP Samurai RE-ELECT PROM4CSM7 www.promsrage.com |
Shaera Taam
Minmatar Death Squad Broken Chains Alliance
34
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Posted - 2012.01.24 02:37:00 -
[1048] - Quote
i used to be excited for a af buff, yknow ill admit to not being the most experienced frig pvp driver out there, but jeez, im beginning to wish ccp'd hold off until crucible 1.2 and give these changes some (more) serious thought
and mwd?
rly?
why?
Thus Spake the Frigate Goddess! |
Mirei Jun
Right to Rule IMPERIAL LEGI0N
33
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Posted - 2012.01.24 03:44:00 -
[1049] - Quote
Meant to write this earlier:
After more experimentation and consideration I have come to the conclusion an AB boost would be game breaking. Yep, I admit I was wrong. The reasons for this are posted throughout this tread... plus I found a few others.
So, while I like the idea of AFs having a distinct and different bonus, giving them an AB bonus would simply break too many other mechanics in the game -a shame.
With that said, there are still major issues in this game with small ships being viable or useful in any way during large engagements, or versus larger ships. I hope this problem is examined by a development team at some point. |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
265
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 06:02:00 -
[1050] - Quote
The AF are much more effective against larger ships. And while you may see some pilots get those rare kill mails they are supposed to be heavy tackle - grab the enemy and hold on for that minute it takes for support to arrive.
Small ships are skirmish ships. You use them for such. There's nothing wrong with that. You didn't see 30 gun frigates slugging it out with 100 gun ships of the line back in Napoleonic times. They were commerce raiders. They were scouts. They were messengers.
I have seen FC's use small ships effectively in large fleet actions. But in those cases they sent them in just as the enemy was about to break. You don't focus fire to well when everyone is running. Send in the interceptors and catch the slow stragglers.
EAF need to be addressed now. And I feel that interceptors should get higher resists. Speed and signature are not quite enough in the age of tracking enhancers. |
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