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Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:14:00 -
[31]
Originally by: RedFall
Originally by: Dark Shikari
I agree with this. But I still think Moore is a fat slob idiot. He is just as biased as the health care company. I don't trust him, and the fact that he went to Cuba to see how good their socialized health care system was is just laughable and almost treasonous. Let's see where Moore goes when has to get a triple bypass - does he go to a country with socialized medicine, like Canada or Cuba, or does he go to those evil, evil corporate greedmongers in America? Fat slob idiot.
Actually, I'd trust a country with socialized medicine quite a bit more, because their doctors are paid to help people, rather than to make as much money as possible without regard for their patients' livelihoods.
Hell, they even have malpractice insurance so that if they screw up, they don't risk anything.
Have you ever had to deal with socialized medicine? Ask the Canadians. They have hugely subsidies on medicine and they get it for almost nothing, but if you need an emergency triple bypass, the soonest you can get it is in about 3 months, so you are S.O.L.
I do not want the government to control my doctor. I do not want the same people to run the DMV to run my health care.
Dude... maybe you should ask a Canadian about their experiences before you claim to know about things like triple bypass surgeries. Yes, you will have a wait-list for elective, non-emergency surgeries. Yes, this is annoying and many people take 'medical holiday's' for this sort of stuff. Yes, this is an indication of a problem in Canadian healthcare.
Emergency stuff? "Dr.... I feel breathless and my arm is numb" ...Oh look, it's fixed.
We also don't have people refused for life-threatening conditions simply because they don't have insurance. Cheap shot, I know, but true as well in many cases.
Healthcare ethics are an extensive and tumultuous set of conversations. However, don't set up straw men so you can knock them down. Frankly I'd rather the government control my healthcare because I don't have to be concerned about a private insurer deciding I won't be covered for Major Surgery X because of some lame technicality so they can cut that quarterly's costs. Do you really feel comfortable with actuary tables having a say in deciding whether your Mum should get that liver transplant?
Originally by: Putso Glifti Mouse usage level II and reading comprehension level IV are required. Good evening, I'll be your ALT for this post. Can I offer you some troll or whine to start?
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RedFall
Irreligion
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Frankly I'd rather the government control my healthcare because I don't have to be concerned about a private insurer deciding I won't be covered for Major Surgery X because of some lame technicality so they can cut that quarterly's costs. Do you really feel comfortable with actuary tables having a say in deciding whether your Mum should get that liver transplant?
I trust the free market more than I trust the government. And if you read all the posts after me, a lot of canadians agreed with the jist of my post. I think you just wanted to troll meh.
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 00:45:00 -
[33]
Originally by: RedFall
Originally by: Mr Friendly
Frankly I'd rather the government control my healthcare because I don't have to be concerned about a private insurer deciding I won't be covered for Major Surgery X because of some lame technicality so they can cut that quarterly's costs. Do you really feel comfortable with actuary tables having a say in deciding whether your Mum should get that liver transplant?
I trust the free market more than I trust the government. And if you read all the posts after me, a lot of canadians agreed with the jist of my post. I think you just wanted to troll meh.
Wish I did. You know, back in the 80's, Maggie Thatcher was in power in the UK and set about privatising a whole bunch of stuff. Some of it worked out pretty good. Some of it didn't. One of the things that was privatised was the water boards. My local water board ended up, after a bit of switching, in the hands of a German company. They fired a bunch of staff, stopped maintaining the piping, sold off some of their office assets, and jacked up the prices. No other companies can compete in this area, since only they own any pipes or reservoirs. My area now holds the national record for the most expensive water, the least clean water, and the most water wastage through pipe leaks.
The moral of the story? Private industry can be, and often are, bastards. They're generally only held in check by competition with other bastards. If the competition ever becomes insufficient, bastardom is unleashed to it's fullest. At least I can vote for the other guy, with the government... --------
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Ixianus
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Posted - 2007.06.27 05:00:00 -
[34]
Other people who have medical problems should go to hell! My chest hurts AND I HAVE TO BE SEEN NOW.
Yeah, thats great, meanwhile people who cant afford medicine suffer way more than you, in addition to all the weird crap that goes on, I want some of you to go visit an operating room in America, its shameful, Ive observed a few times and its absolutely outrageous the way the behave, unprofessional.
When individuals are making money to say somethings wrong with you, you can bet theyre going to find something wrong with you, and this leads to lots of crap that shouldnt be being done in the first place, take a look at American infants.
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Pehova Mindtriq
Endgame.
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:40:00 -
[35]
Originally by: RedFall Have you ever had to deal with socialized medicine? Ask the Canadians. They have hugely subsidies on medicine and they get it for almost nothing, but if you need an emergency triple bypass, the soonest you can get it is in about 3 months, so you are S.O.L.
I do not want the government to control my doctor. I do not want the same people to run the DMV to run my health care.
I've studied abit about this and my conclusion is that the longer the queue is for non emergency treatment the better the health care system it is. Sounds strange but if there is a queue that means that people can afford the treatment. I think it was in India (or neighbouring country) where the queues for treatment was non existant and it was because there were so many people that needed treament but couldn't afford it. I don't know about USA but the insurance system you got I can imagine that there are alot of people not recieveing needed treatment because they can't afford the insurance.
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.27 08:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: The Blinded Why you gotta throw owning guns into that argument like its a bad thing?
he made Bowling For Colombine. moore was called a liar (and a fat slob) by all manner of anti-gun control types, but as it turned out he was telling the truth, or at least bits of it.
but i'm with you milita guys on this one. everybody should have lots of guns. personally, i use an assault rifle to rotovate my garden.
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Locus Bey
Gallente Qalandar
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Posted - 2007.06.27 09:03:00 -
[37]
they have been trying to introduce an american style health system for at least 15 years now here in australia. the public health system is in crisis as a result (underfunding of public hospitals and less and less doctors bulk billing for example).
even if you do have medical insurance you still end up paying a good amount extra for private hospital care anyway. caesarians rates for private hospital births are so far above the world average that it is frightening. it is mostly a rort, and with user pays for nigh on everything now, impossible for many families. from what i have seen of the american system, i am really frightened that's where we will end up. it's a disgrace.
as to mr moore, i agree he he is 'clever' in how he structures his arguments, but that never negates the truth of what he puts in our faces. our economic and social system is sick and totally flawed, the more people like moore who expose the disgrace that is capitalist democracy, the quicker it will fall.
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Malaina
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:21:00 -
[38]
Originally by: RedFall Have you ever had to deal with socialized medicine? Ask the Canadians. They have hugely subsidies on medicine and they get it for almost nothing, but if you need an emergency triple bypass, the soonest you can get it is in about 3 months, so you are S.O.L.
I do not want the government to control my doctor. I do not want the same people to run the DMV to run my health care.
Just wanted to quote you, as I have personal experience with this. My mother went into the hospital on 03/25/2007 for some tests, as she was having dizziness, angina, etc. She went into surgery for a triple bypass 6 days later. 3 months? I don't think so.
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.06.27 10:34:00 -
[39]
IBTL
(real-world politics?)
- Recruitment open again-
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.27 11:30:00 -
[40]
i thought this was about michael moore and his latest film on healthcare? where are the politics?
NADER RULES!
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nubinator
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Posted - 2007.06.27 12:49:00 -
[41]
People who think the market is a better watchdog for their interests than government are ********.
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Dian Cecht
Omnicorp Enterprises HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:06:00 -
[42]
Don't talk to me about NHS waiting lists!
My wife got pregnant and we had to wait 9 months before they would deliver it! And don't be fooled, they don't even deliver it, you have to go into the hospital and bring it home yourself......
Dian
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Desired Username
Legio Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Dian Cecht Don't talk to me about NHS waiting lists!
My wife got pregnant and we had to wait 9 months before they would deliver it! And don't be fooled, they don't even deliver it, you have to go into the hospital and bring it home yourself......
Dian
I think a little bit of wee just came out
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InAkTiV
DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.06.27 13:42:00 -
[44]
Originally by: nubinator People who think the market is a better watchdog for their interests than government are ********.
I would agree, i don't think people wanted the food companies, to make up the rules for what they can put in your food ?? Or gun companies make rules for when and where you can use your gun, or if you even need id to get one.
I am sure the american system works great, For the rich. Alot of people are left behind, and not only homeless people, normal working people have a hard time paying hospital bills.
I have only been traveling USA for two and a half month, but that was what i got from the people I met over there, and how I saw the system working. Many thought it was a flawed system, but I can see it will be hard to change the healthcare system in one day, it will take alot of time and money. Maybe using the goverment money a little different?
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ry ry
StateCorp
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Posted - 2007.06.27 15:11:00 -
[45]
Edited by: ry ry on 27/06/2007 15:11:56
if the government ever tried to take the National Health Service away in the UK, there could be a coup d'Ttat.
not to drift into politics (as the people who apparently exist solely to post "IBTL" are already circling this thread like particularly boring vultures) but rather an indication of how much free health care means to the British people.
and yes, i know we pay for it via our taxes, so it's not free-free, but medical care being dependant on having the right insurance seems absolutely mental to me....
"Hello, MediSure, Brad speaking how can i help? ... Cancer? no sorry mate, you've only got third party fire & theft, that's an act of God so we can't pay up. have a nice day." *click*
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Tyreal Magnus
Caldari Vindictive Behavior THE H0RDE
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Posted - 2007.07.05 21:28:00 -
[46]
Originally by: RedFall
Have you ever had to deal with socialized medicine? Ask the Canadians. They have hugely subsidies on medicine and they get it for almost nothing, but if you need an emergency triple bypass, the soonest you can get it is in about 3 months, so you are S.O.L.
I do not want the government to control my doctor. I do not want the same people to run the DMV to run my health care.
Hello,
My Mother is a senior surgeon for the catheter lab in Sunnybrook... one of the larger hospitals in Toronto Canada... If you need emergency triple bypass, you will get it. I can not count how many times I have been woken up at 2:30 am because some fat guy ate too much mcdonalds. When I showed her this topic and your post she was quite upset by your ignorance.
Seriously though, if you need medical treatment, you will get it. The key here is æneedÆ. It is not uncommon for your elective surgery to be cancelled at the last moment due to an emergency. My mother tells me about it all the time. This is the way the system works, be happy some one elseÆs low-priority surgery will be cancelled for your bypass when you eat too much mcdonalds.
The only advantage to private healthcare is that people only use it when they are truly sick. There are too many hypochondriacs that abuse our social system every time they sneeze. In truth though the system works: You get the healthcare you need when you need it.
***I like to burn things :P*** |
Kharadran Sullath
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.05 22:11:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Kharadran Sullath on 05/07/2007 22:11:35 The healthcare in Sweden is socialized. The queues for surgery and transplants are long, but you do get treated in good time before any permanent damage/death occurs. Getting treated for normal sicknesses has a very low cost (for the visit to the doctor) and those appointments are a cakewalk to acquire. The only thing that costs is your medication. I liek.
*edited for failure to make the post right on the first try" ------ --Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!-- |
Ander
Gallente Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.07.05 22:49:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Ander on 05/07/2007 22:48:43
Originally by: Kharadran Sullath Edited by: Kharadran Sullath on 05/07/2007 22:11:35 The healthcare in Sweden is socialized. The queues for surgery and transplants are long, but you do get treated in good time before any permanent damage/death occurs. Getting treated for normal sicknesses has a very low cost (for the visit to the doctor) and those appointments are a cakewalk to acquire. The only thing that costs is your medication. I liek.
*edited for failure to make the post right on the first try"
The problem with non-socialized healthcare is that someone can always pay to get healthcare rightaway. It doesnt matter if his problem isn't an emergency he'll basicly be able to pay his way to get emergency treatment before those who need it but dont have as much money.
In Sweden there's a "vsrdgaranti" or "guarantee of treatment". Which basicly promises you good care before any damage is done. Nobody has to chuck up thousands of dollars to save his life. Nor does he get moved down the queue cause some rich slob can pay for treatment before him.
We can ask ourselves, do we want to prioritize money or the one who actually need healthcare?
Now I dont say the swedish system is perfect. We've plenty of people who abuse the system by going although they dont need the help. But generally there are nurses and doctors who will tell them "go home, take an aspirin and call back if it gets worse".
I've had excellent healthcare personally in Sweden. I wouldnt be able to move to america and become a citizen. Why? I've got some conditions which for I wouldnt be covered. In sweden I'd still get healthcare no matter if they knew about my pre-existing conditions.
EVE PIRATE ANDER! now posting in "orange" |
WGAnubis Marrith
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Posted - 2007.07.05 23:01:00 -
[49]
Like any insitiution run by man its at the mercy of becoming corrupt and greedy. What Moore does however is take these obvous flaws, blows them out of proportion, and then turns around and makes a huge profit off of it, so you have to ask, who is the real sicko in all this? I mean if the man were to take his earnings and donate a percentage to say the families of those lost in the 9/11 attacks, free hospitals, or even a childrens fund that would be great. But when you reun a search to see if hes donated and money, you find out hes been donating his cash to his perverbial enemies to keep them going to make him look good.
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MrFats Domino
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Posted - 2007.07.06 01:36:00 -
[50]
You think Americas health system is bad come to Ireland.2 days for a bed in A+E.Still its free
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Cleveland Steam
Neverland Ranch Hands
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Posted - 2007.07.06 01:51:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Cleveland Steam on 06/07/2007 01:52:51 Everyone is biased, its just that when Michael Moore does it, they call it a documentary. Rather than a defend-the-indefensible hit job.
Dont get me wrong, we have issues with our healthcare system. But the dude is still a major wang.
Edit: Take everything with a grain of salt. Especially from those who benefit financially from you buying what they're selling.
Plz dont nerf my sig again... |
Plagiatum
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Posted - 2007.07.06 02:33:00 -
[52]
Originally by: WGAnubis Marrith Like any insitiution run by man its at the mercy of becoming corrupt and greedy. What Moore does however is take these obvous flaws, blows them out of proportion, and then turns around and makes a huge profit off of it, so you have to ask, who is the real sicko in all this? I mean if the man were to take his earnings and donate a percentage to say the families of those lost in the 9/11 attacks, free hospitals, or even a childrens fund that would be great. But when you reun a search to see if hes donated and money, you find out hes been donating his cash to his perverbial enemies to keep them going to make him look good.
got source or link?
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Emeline Cabernet
Amarr KVA Noble Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.06 02:42:00 -
[53]
i see you anti moore people calling him paranoid and then you post complete utter rubbish like this: " hes been donating his cash to his perverbial enemies to keep them going to make him look good."
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Hellen Kellor
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Posted - 2007.07.06 03:05:00 -
[54]
Everything can be proven to suck if its shown from the right angle, and thats the point. I think he'd be better off doing things a tad more objectively. The way he goes about things just smells of bias and that in no way helps his cause - if he truly has one.
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Anasur
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Posted - 2007.07.10 10:17:00 -
[55]
Most countries with government run health care use a 2 tier system. The NHS is like that for instance. What that means is that normal care is handled by the government, usually with waits on non-emergency surgery. Emergency treatment, as discussed here, is immediate.
The 2nd tier is private treatment. Its basically treatment you pay for either through insurance or out of pocket, but you get it faster. So if you really want that cyst removed NOW you can pay to have it done.
Canada is the exception to this, as there is no 2nd tier of private health coverage. It all goes through the government run system. Thats why you see Canadians who want something done fast coming to the US, but you don't really see that in other nations with govt run health care, as they just pay to have it done quickly there.
As I understand it there is currently a big debate over whether to implement a 2 tier system in Canada, but I am sure our Canadian posters would know more about that.
My point, is that its very possible to have govt run healthcare and still get immediate service on non-life threatening cases, if you want to pay for extra coverage.
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.07.10 10:31:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Tarquin Tarquinius Edited by: Tarquin Tarquinius on 26/06/2007 18:49:29
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Actually, I'd trust a country with socialized medicine quite a bit more, because their doctors are paid to help people, rather than to make as much money as possible without regard for their patients' livelihoods.
Hell, they even have malpractice insurance so that if they screw up, they don't risk anything.
First. Without competition theres no incentive to do quality work or actually help the customers. Thats why the DMV, Court Houses, and Post Offices have such long lines. People have no choice. Socialized medicine turns doctors into undermotivated buerocrats. I prefer government subsidzed insurence to socialized medicine. (like Canada's system or Medicare in the US)
Second: Malpractice insurence costs doctors a lot of money. Its one of the reason I decided to go into Pharmacy instead of Medicine.
That English doctor in the movie really gave the impression of an undermotivated buerocrate...with his wife/kid, nice home, nice car...I feel bad for him _______________
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John McFly
Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 11:19:00 -
[57]
Edited by: John McFly on 10/07/2007 11:18:29
Originally by: Tyreal Magnus
Seriously though, if you need medical treatment, you will get it. The key here is æneedÆ. It is not uncommon for your elective surgery to be cancelled at the last moment due to an emergency. My mother tells me about it all the time. This is the way the system works, be happy some one elseÆs low-priority surgery will be cancelled for your bypass when you eat too much mcdonalds.
The only advantage to private healthcare is that people only use it when they are truly sick. There are too many hypochondriacs that abuse our social system every time they sneeze. In truth though the system works: You get the healthcare you need when you need it.
Even if your surgery is elective, its usually going to vastly improve your quality of life. They're not going to cancel a face-lift so someone can have heart surgery, they'll delay a non-critical heart patient instead. But that means the non-critical patient still has to sit in the hospital.
If you're regularly cancelling non-critical surgeries to handle emergency cases, then your health care system is overloaded and doesnt have enough ORs, doctors or nurses.
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Judas Lonestar
Ganja Labs Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.10 11:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mr Friendly Frankly I'd rather the government control my healthcare because I don't have to be concerned about a private insurer deciding I won't be covered for Major Surgery X because of some lame technicality so they can cut that quarterly's costs. Do you really feel comfortable with actuary tables having a say in deciding whether your Mum should get that liver transplant?
Thats because you've never had to live in pain with a non life threatening condition. Its real easy to say you love socialized healthcare when your healthy, as easy as it is to say you love private healthcare when your healthy.
Both systems will also give you excellent and prompt medical care in the event of an emergency.
The differences come when you have some pencil pusher say "Well, thats not life threatening. To the bottom of the list" and your stuck living in pain for months or years while people in a private healthcare system are fixed up in a week.
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ElrondHubbard
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Posted - 2007.07.10 11:43:00 -
[59]
Edited by: ElrondHubbard on 10/07/2007 11:43:39
Watching 'House' has taught me that innocuous symptoms inevitably mean you're going to die of aids-ridden tapeworms of the throat within hours.
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Xen Gin
The Dragoons X-PACT
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Posted - 2007.07.10 11:57:00 -
[60]
The nice part here is that the government just made all NHS prescriptions free for everyone.
Emergency services are great, especially with the UK's third (apparently) largest training and working hospital.
Unfortunately here like in Cuba we are training more medical staff than we can comfortably employ in the profession.
Also the water supplier situation, Wales is unique to the UK in this department, because we've only got one water company for the whole nation, but it is a non-profit organisation so all profits go back in to redevelopment and maintenance.
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