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Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.06.30 12:55:00 -
[1]
about 80% of what I owned in corporate stocks became scams. I stopped investing a long time ago (a year) and wished the one stock remaining in my wallet.. that I had faith in (emfi) could change my belief that investing in eve could work.....unfortunately for whatever reason.....whether it was scam.. or loss of interest in eve... I am saddened that investing ...an interesting aspect to eve... IMO became a way for scammers to thrive (and will continue to thrive off of new players and ppl that still trust the shotty system of confirming who is trustworthy).
For whatever reason the CCP has let this plundering continue...wow (come to the USA .."be all you can be" ...in the United States Congress).
I simply believe it was a very interesting aspect of the game...CCP could have created the sa***uards but chose not to....because of this, people over time will dismiss investing as a waste of time and isk. People who were deemed trustworthy turned up as thieves...people are working out amazing business plans and ideas with every intention to walk away with billions of isk. As time passes this experiment will prove itself as a completely failed one (not just mostly failed) and most of the risks(if not already the case) will be taken by newer players learning about the game ...that buy a few GTC cards then throw away an extra isk into promises and business plans made by mostly scammers ......And if they are really really really lucky or have the right conversations with veteran players...they will catch a few diamonds in the rough and put isk into a legitimate venture (In the end the ones in my wallet that were legit cashed out at some point...about 2 of 10 corps i invested in...I have no active dividends coming in after my halt to investing 1 year ago.....hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm).
For those who are new investors or that are experienced ones that continue to invest...all I can say is ....time will tell....it sure did for me.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.06.30 14:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Shar Tegral on 30/06/2007 14:00:25
Rant, rant, rant.
Two things about investing in player run corporations that everyone should always keep on a post it firmly glued, if not stenciled, to their monitors.
1 - Never invest money that you need.
2 - If the loss of the money is going to make you ***** and moan... spare us puhleez.
EMFI could have been a clever ruse. Ionia could also be a clever ruse. Heck even I, after 5 years track record, could be a clever ruse. I could even be EMFI and Ionia both. (Mental mTnage a trois anyone?) People want to forget that this game is rife with deceit when they work up the gumption to toss money out a window. I prefer you remember it always.
Even if I'm the one asking.
IMHO Makes my keeping my word all the more sweeter for my partners. (Of course a good con artist would say this too.)
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Shar Tegral> Some pew-pew at doo-doo for free-whee!!!! |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.06.30 14:23:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Gully Smit on 30/06/2007 14:26:58 I did not lose isk I needed. I came to a conclusion that investing is not werth my time or isk.
I liked the idea of investing into corporations...it was a unique aspect of eve that I believe (from experience) is flawed and gives favor to the scammers.
I think people new to eve will get shanked by bogus corporations and veteran scammers.
I am guessing those that are currently scamming this may (but probably not tho) be a threatening "rant" to their work.
flame away.
o did I say it wasn't the isk I lost? I lost interest.
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Calgorac
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.06.30 14:37:00 -
[4]
ive made far more isk than ive lost gambling on the ingame stock market...
just lucky I guess I sold all my emfi stocks a long time ago for over 15k per
honestly dont think emfi is a scam... good possibility of simple burnout and lack of interest/motivation to continue.
thats a risk with all legitimate corps in eve.
that the ceo/directors will loose interest and the corp will fail. From all of me: Calgorac, Caroglac, Sixta, and James Omerand... |
Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.06.30 14:44:00 -
[5]
I lost money in emfi, more than I hoped, but I guess the advantage of expecting this back in January lessened the sting.
Meh... that's life.
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Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.06.30 15:02:00 -
[6]
perhaps if I exchange the word "interest" with "confidence" it might be more on target for the post....but in reality it's both...because I lost interest because I lost confidence.....
I am glad people have had success with investing.....and have legitimate corps with investors. My experience has not yielded that success....hence this post.
I don't want to be interpreted as a whiner...I believe sharing the experience at best could re-open the debate ....give reservation to people that are new....maybe give them incentive to really research their corps..ipo's of interest. It's simply not for me anymore....and I stand by my claim that "time will tell" on the bulk of what's out there. It just seems to be more about disappointments. Please flame my opinion all you want. And certianly give me your take on the the health of investing in Eve....I am interested in opinions and experiences.
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.06.30 16:06:00 -
[7]
As long as CCP doesn't introduce means for controlling IPOs (like in RL), people investing in IPOs are taking a risk.
I'll never get why people even bother, it's way to easy to just run of with the ISK. _______________
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Marodi Julita
Sublime Captial Investments
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Posted - 2007.06.30 18:59:00 -
[8]
i've broken even counting in the loss due to aatp/emfi...
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Ray McCormack
BIG
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Posted - 2007.06.30 19:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Marodi Julita i've broken even counting in the loss due to aatp/emfi...
Let's not call it a loss just yet, EMFI may yet return to face the music, and there are other options to exhaust before writing it off.
| How To Afford A Tech II BPO | BMBE ISK Loans | |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.06.30 21:29:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Gully Smit on 30/06/2007 21:28:06 It would be interesting to list the corporations and the amounts scammed since the investing started (I know it's a sick amount).
perhaps the freezing or loss of of billions of isk is factored into the Eve economy in such a way that the CCP would have to be foolish to implement tools that allow secure investing.
I am also on the positive strain for the possible return of aatp/emfi. But wow I can remember how well people were played by Cally?<< I read her business plans...they were damn good.
My conspiracy theory=Maybe it's all the CCP!! <<just kidding
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Block Ukx
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Posted - 2007.06.30 21:55:00 -
[11]
It is very unfortunate that some IPOs end up in scams and I hope that you invest with us. As far as I know, BSAC is the only corporation offering a viable 100% safe investment.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=546929 We are currently looking for BPO Trustees.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2007.06.30 22:01:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gully Smit perhaps the freezing or loss of of billions of isk is factored into the Eve economy in such a way that the CCP would have to be foolish to implement tools that allow secure investing.
Without risk, there's no reward!
Every investment is a risk, you just have to look at who and what you're investing in and judge the risk for yourself. An older character with a history and a good reputation is less likely to scam you than someone who's newer and has no time invested in friendships in-game etc. Looking at someone's attitude toward the game is also important. Essentially, you have to look at who you're investing in and ask yourself "What would they GAIN if they pulled a scam" and "What would they LOSE if they pulled a scam?". If you can reasonably say the losses would outweigh the gains, it's a safeish bet.
If I can tempt you to invest in my current IPO, I'd like to think I can prove to you that the right investment is safe. I'm sure you've had it with the investment market by now, though :/.
Eve-Tanking.com - Nobody reads this slogan. |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.06.30 22:39:00 -
[13]
Essentially, you have to look at who you're investing in and ask yourself "What would they GAIN if they pulled a scam" and "What would they LOSE if they pulled a scam?". If you can reasonably say the losses would outweigh the gains, it's a safeish bet.
Nyphur- excellent point!
aye...yeah investing lost it's thrill due to the number of scams in my wallet. I realize that no risk=no reward as well ...it's just that in EVE the rewards and risks are in favor of the scammer (IMO) not the investor.
There have been some seemingly reputable people that weighed out their risks and rewards as scammers and chose to pilfer billions...sadly reputation took the back seat to greed (like in RL ....except again without regulation of this activity in some way ...the rewards vs. risks favor the scammer by a lot IMO).
maybe a slightly better balance between risks vs. rewards (as scammer or investor) will come about after there are more investors lose interest like myself.
My gut feeling is that newer inexperienced players are plentiful and will keep the scamming economy thriving (people are generally lazy and careless about throwing their isk out the window)...IPO's, business plans and people accounting for one anther seem to be the pulse to keep it pumping. I am confident that in 2 maybe 3 months we will see the next "Big" scam for billions and people will slap them on the back and curse them.
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Aaron Mirrorsaver
TARDZ Gods of Night and Day
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Posted - 2007.07.01 01:29:00 -
[14]
CCP always states and players always agree, that this is a game you can't trust anyone and a dog eat dog world. And you have to be careful with you precious isk just as you would your money in real life.
But this game has stealing in it like real life, but not the controls and laws like in real life. There should be mechanisms to support investing, where by people don't simply have to rely on trust and whether a person will click on someones name and give back money to them.
-- TARDZ is recruiting pilots! Gods of Night and Day is recruiting Corporations!
Join Gods of Night and Day! |
DragonRiderTao
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Posted - 2007.07.01 01:37:00 -
[15]
Look at my plan. How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine. |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.07.01 02:01:00 -
[16]
LOL @ the head.
U shoulda thought a lil more during character creation bud. I'll skip looking at ur plan.
anyone for soccer?
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Calladen Nimitz
Caldari Sovereign Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.01 22:42:00 -
[17]
I've probably bought 15 stocks in the last two years. A couple were miserable failures like EIB and Pen but some have worked out real well like O'Mara,Zerodot and ISS (not the stations the fund). I'd say they broke down as 4 scams, 2 disappeared because they're bored, a couple closed up shops but paid me back and the rest are still successful stocks. In a way its kind of like a mutual fund in that you collect a pool of stocks and hope most of them make you money but you know a few are going to be duds.
Nyphur raised an excellent point:
"Essentially, you have to look at who you're investing in and ask yourself "What would they GAIN if they pulled a scam" and "What would they LOSE if they pulled a scam?". If you can reasonably say the losses would outweigh the gains, it's a safeish bet."
Thats why its so important to know who someone is if they're an alt. When Zolcan showed up here no one knew who he was but everyone knew Archbishop and Calladen Nimitz. That long term reputation helps allay fears as to someone like Archbishop reputation is everything like it is for Proton Power, Ricdic and Shar Tegral.
As an example would you invest here if John DoeSmith asked you for 2b? Probably not. If OmberZombie posted immediately after that John was his alt would you? Heck yes.
There is one thing you can't buy in Eve and that is a reputation. Thus reputation has to be the #1 thing you look at when investing. Then #2 what is the business plan. Then #3 do they have assets already. Ask yourself 'what does this person lose if they scam?'. In cases of people with longterm reputations the answer is "everything".
"There have been some seemingly reputable people that weighed out their risks and rewards as scammers and chose to pilfer billions...sadly reputation took the back seat to greed (like in RL ....except again without regulation of this activity in some way ...the rewards vs. risks favor the scammer by a lot IMO)."
This is a sad truth yes which is one reason I prefer to keep investments very "low" amount wise. With my current bond I've raised 7b isk for my corporation but over 3b was my own isk. I see people asking for 40b isk and I just think "omg you have to be kidding". Yet I invested heavily in ISSO and again today received another nice dividend as they paid out billions to their shareholders this month. With ISS its all about reputation again. ISSO would lose EVERYTHING if they scammed.
When I look at people who have scammed and look at how people considered them "reputable" I guess I have to ask what you think makes someone reputable? I have to believe its the entire body of their eve career and not just a few months of posts on the market forum. I know Shar Tegral from my time in TTI and in Beta. Sure he's abrupt sometimes but he's a straight shooter and I trust him. Sure he could scam you tomorrow but looking at the entirety of his life in Eve and his reputation I have to ask "would he scam?". I find it very doubtful just as most people would look at Archbishop (Zolcan) and say "he wouldn't scam he'd lose everything".
People equate "repuation" to posting here. Reputation isn't six months of forum posting and being nice. Heck if that were the case people would be setting up alts to do that now for future scams. No.... reputation is a LIFETIME of living in Eve.
Personally I think no one should have trouble advertising their "mains". If they can't to the public because they're in 0.0 and there are risks they should still tell a few trusted people here to "confirm" they have a good reputation. It's a lifetime deal.
Don't write off IPOs yet. But look at the person asking for your isk and ask yourself if they do scam what do they lose. For many people it's everything and thats a price we're not willing to ever pay.
Calladen
SOVEREIGN ENTERPRISES WEBPAGE AND FORUMS |
Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.01 23:25:00 -
[18]
<<QFT>>
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Shar Tegral> Some pew-pew at doo-doo for free-whee!!!! |
DragonRiderTao
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Posted - 2007.07.02 00:28:00 -
[19]
Edited by: DragonRiderTao on 02/07/2007 00:30:02
Originally by: Gully Smit LOL @ the head.
U shoulda thought a lil more during character creation bud. I'll skip looking at ur plan.
anyone for soccer?
That glitch is not caused by me. It is your loss for not investing.
How many dragons can you slay? You cant slay mine. |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.07.02 02:46:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Gully Smit on 02/07/2007 02:47:31 Edited by: Gully Smit on 02/07/2007 02:44:47 My apologies to dragonridertao. Sorry bout the glitch... really. No plans to invest here..... Calladen...great post ty. I think it's still very difficult for a player of 1 mos. to 2 yrs to equal your knowledge of the game...keep posting plz. new players (I was one) are the ones that I believe fall victim of their own laziness or inexperience when dealing with investments in eve. I do think it presents a problem simply because investing in eve is an exciting idea for the game but isn't quite "user friendly" enough for people entering the game with isk to spend...without education about what the heck they are doing. It's a plethora of info to take in and decifer in this game....it's why I love it...yet...the flaws with investing IMO need some balancing.
Primarily because Joe Blow will probably never stumble upon your advise Calleden and others unmentioned above. They will learn like a sculptor....the hard way. And in the meantime, the people that gain from lack of experience, gameplay and reads on the forums in the marketplace... will be scammers. I agree with everything you say Calleden ...yet I stand by the idea that with stupid and/or inexperienced people entering eve everyday (hopefully) the investing opportunities largely are in favor of scammers. We can argue...yeah it's their own stupid fault... but honestly I believe IPO's have become an exploit....for scammers.
It's my take on the situation.
on the otherhand, maybe this is a ridiculous rant....yet any debate is good IMO.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.02 02:58:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Gully Smit I stand by the idea that with stupid and/or inexperienced people entering eve everyday (hopefully) the investing opportunities largely are in favor of scammers. We can argue...yeah it's their own stupid fault... but honestly I believe IPO's have become an exploit....for scammers.
Con men always gather where good business prospers. It's a simple fact of life in or out of Eve. And I've spent enough hours pounding and pounding the keyboard trying to tell the many sheeple, those you are worry about, to think then act. And they stay sheeple through and through and do what all sheeple do. Con men succeed best with intelligent people... of all ironies. We consider ourselves to smart to be gullible. So it's not that they are stupid... oh no. It's that they think they know better than the person shouting at them, "You are being an idiot!"
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Shar Tegral> Some pew-pew at doo-doo for free-whee!!!! |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.07.02 03:04:00 -
[22]
Quote:
There is one thing you can't buy in Eve and that is a reputation. Thus reputation has to be the #1 thing you look at when investing. Then #2 what is the business plan. Then #3 do they have assets already. Ask yourself 'what does this person lose if they scam?'. In cases of people with longterm reputations the answer is "everything".
In the early days of EVE I can imagine #1 was very easy to roll with. Now with people dealing in very large sums of cash, #1 becomes incredibly hard for newew people to show up trumps for.
Without trying to sound like it's a shameless plug, it's why I listed my one and a half year old mains along with the proposal. The what do i lose/ what do they lose side of story is usually the best way to weigh up someones reputation. With two one and a half year characters names to sully on the line, it's a pretty big risk imo, however it still doesnt rule out that they are bought characters, and the rewards from such an investment will outweigh the cost of those characters.
Meh.
Think I roll with a few people that there needs to be some sort of tool to allow people to make *some* form of guarantee which isn't exploitable, while securing peoples assets. Improve Market Competition! |
Motivated Prophet
Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's
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Posted - 2007.07.02 03:07:00 -
[23]
Right now, investing in Eve is a lot like poker. If you can judge your tablemates' inner thoughts, you can make out like a bandit. If you cannot, you will hemorrhage money. And if you don't look too closely, and you're just in Vegas for the weekend, the difference between those two categories of investors (and, by extension, investments) will just look like luck.
Occasionally, of course, even the best of the best can fall down. Yes, you're a stunningly good player, and you've managed to get your AA all-in pre-flop vs. KK, but you'll still lose 20% of the time. When that 1-in-5 time comes up (DS' endorsement of EIB, for example), you don't point to the person and laugh, "Ha! What an idiot! He went all-in with AA vs. KK!" You recognize that everything's a risk, and this is a person who has taken the RIGHT path time and time again, but that the Devil always takes his due.
Coincidentally, a lot of the top IPO's I know are run by semi-professional poker players.
MP --
Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression! |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.07.02 03:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shar Tegral
Originally by: Gully Smit I stand by the idea that with stupid and/or inexperienced people entering eve everyday (hopefully) the investing opportunities largely are in favor of scammers. We can argue...yeah it's their own stupid fault... but honestly I believe IPO's have become an exploit....for scammers.
Con men always gather where good business prospers. It's a simple fact of life in or out of Eve. And I've spent enough hours pounding and pounding the keyboard trying to tell the many sheeple, those you are worry about, to think then act. And they stay sheeple through and through and do what all sheeple do. Con men succeed best with intelligent people... of all ironies. We consider ourselves to smart to be gullible. So it's not that they are stupid... oh no. It's that they think they know better than the person shouting at them, "You are being an idiot!"
great...while most of your criticism flies against players with limited experience trying to begin an IPO ...I wonder are u that embedded to the monopoly vets have over new players...whether they are intelligent scammers or just vets that say hey "i'm going to start an IPO...I know so many that will back me so why not..i'm bored" ....I think u need to re-evaluate things by seeing them from another perspective. I can understand your points....and believe your deeds to inform ppl is great.
perhaps u are the elite.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.02 03:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Gully Smit I think u need to re-evaluate things by seeing them from another perspective.
It is your choice to rail against conventional wisdom. Yet you don't ask what opportunities I help create for people who don't have the long histories sufficient to start heading into public ipos. Now, sense you seem up for the hashing out of this, I will tell you what the problem is regarding new people. It's called "Adult Envy". Any child that watches an adult do anything wants to be able to do what the adult does and in equal measure. However what each child fails to realize is all the steps and all the effort for the adult to reach that level of capability. One must walk before he can run no matter how hard he tries otherwise. So I will share with you, and everyone here, the veteran secret to being able to do what we veterans do: We built our reputations one day at a time.Rail against that bit of wisdom as you wish. Most children do until the grow up.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Shar Tegral> Some pew-pew at doo-doo for free-whee!!!! |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.07.02 03:52:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Gully Smit on 02/07/2007 03:52:20
Originally by: Shar Tegral [justify] Originally by: Gully Smit I think u need to re-evaluate things by seeing them from another perspective.
It is your choice to rail against conventional wisdom. Yet you don't ask what opportunities I help create for people who don't have the long histories sufficient to start heading into public ipos.
I don't trust your wisdom or intelligence...therefore I can only hope the CCP can regulate the situation that allows for equal opportunity....not opportunity by via your wisdom or blessing. As you have stated in many ways the game allows for the "dog eats dog" mentality...vet or no vet...why should ppl trust u in that environment. And u can go on all u want about what u risk for your character...but how do i know u aren't a part of a sophisticated scam network that give thumbs up to fellows u might have known since beta that are scammers that pad your wallet from time to time......literally Eve sets the stage for u can't trust anyone...and u lobby for those that have more experience.
The "dog eats dog" is a great concept and u say to live by it yet trust these ppl cus of their reputation.
50% of what u propose is hypocritical.
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2007.07.02 04:04:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Gully Smit And u can go on all u want about what u risk for your character...but how do i know u aren't a part of a sophisticated scam network
Ah, Agent Provocateur. Nice to meet you sir. I should point out that all tables and chairs should be in their upright positions as I state, "I didn't ask you for anything". So you may proceed to your final destination knowing that you've received only the facts, the realities as it were, and consider your baiting at an end. I hope you've enjoyed your transit with Shar-"get a clue"-lines and that for your next rant/flame baiting thread you will use another website entirely. PS: I just realized school holidays have started. That explains all the wind ups being attempted.
The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it.
Shar Tegral> Well someone please say something quotable for this month!!!! |
Gully Smit
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Posted - 2007.07.02 04:16:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Shar Tegral Edited by: Shar Tegral on 30/06/2007 14:00:25
Rant, rant, rant.
Two things about investing in player run corporations that everyone should always keep on a post it firmly glued, if not stenciled, to their monitors.
1 - Never invest money that you need.
2 - If the loss of the money is going to make you ***** and moan... spare us puhleez.
EMFI could have been a clever ruse. Ionia could also be a clever ruse. Heck even I, after 5 years track record, could be a clever ruse. I could even be EMFI and Ionia both. (Mental mTnage a trois anyone?) People want to forget that this game is rife with deceit when they work up the gumption to toss money out a window. I prefer you remember it always.
Even if I'm the one asking.
IMHO Makes my keeping my word all the more sweeter for my partners. (Of course a good con artist would say this too.)
Initially u missed the point and indeed u feel threatened enough to assume a lot.
Shar ur authority is valuable here and everywhere u post....plz don't become an ayatollah...< o man mispelled.
sincerley
your nemesis.
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Archbishop
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.02 05:01:00 -
[29]
Quote: Without trying to sound like it's a shameless plug, it's why I listed my one and a half year old mains along with the proposal. The what do i lose/ what do they lose side of story is usually the best way to weigh up someones reputation. With two one and a half year characters names to sully on the line, it's a pretty big risk imo, however it still doesnt rule out that they are bought characters, and the rewards from such an investment will outweigh the cost of those characters.
As for bought characters I am firmly in favor of RESEARCH BEFORE YOU INVEST just like in the real world. When I want to buy a stock I don't just log onto ScottTrade and buy it I research it, check the websites, the financial news, projections and past profits. Eve is alot like that too. Thanks to eve-search you have an instant research tool to investigate every post your character target has made. Want to know if he's a bought old character then search him out and see.
Quote: Coincidentally, a lot of the top IPO's I know are run by semi-professional poker players.
How I do love my Texas Hold'Em..... And three casinos in metro Phoenix with Vegas only a six hour drive away!
Archbishop (aka: Calladen, Zolcan)
PIE WEBSITE ARCHBISHOP'S BLOG |
Pilk
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.02 06:47:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Pilk on 02/07/2007 06:46:18
Originally by: Archbishop
Originally by: Motivated Prophet Coincidentally, a lot of the top IPO's I know are run by semi-professional poker players.
How I do love my Texas Hold'Em..... And three casinos in metro Phoenix with Vegas only a six hour drive away!
Archbishop (aka: Calladen, Zolcan)
I'd have an uncontrollable joygasm if I were given the opportunity to play in a big, full-on poker tournament (Of Doom!) with everyone from this forum. I know of some really, really good players who keep a presence here.
We should try to put something together for FanFest.
--P
Kosh: The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to vote. |
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