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BlackMoon Thrawn
the Organ Grinder and Company
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Posted - 2007.07.05 21:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: vanBuskirk To those who say "move":
Two solutions seem to be offered - move to lowsec, and likely lose instead of gaining standing, and certainly lose isk heavily, because some spotty 1337 p1r4t3 likes the looks of your modules or just plain wants to blow someone up because he's bored and/or likes ruining someone's day - or move to another corp and start going up the agent level ladder again, and waste the dozens of hours you've spent gaining hundreds of thousands of LP, and wait an extra six months for your faction BS.
Neither solution is acceptable. Missions have been nerfed, and nerfed, and nerfed again and again - now it appears that CCP are trying "nerf by lag".
Jumpgate is coming back soon, and I've signed up for the beta. I suggest that anyone else who is fed up with CCP's obsession with piracy and PvP combat, almost to the exclusion of all else in terms of development work, does the same.
About the Dodixie/Aunia gate being closed - why? Does anyone know, or was this just another whim?
Just because you don't like the options does not mean they are not acceptable. Either move to another agent within the corp with lower quality or use a different corp. It doesn't take very long to workup to level 4 agents if you have connections and decent faction standing.
You do not have to go to low sec, you do not lose your lp (come back when the lp store buzz has died down), just go somewhere else for awhile.
There are plenty of great pve games out there. EVE is not one of them, its a pvp game with some pve content. Its not likely to change and if it did the game would be over.
no-one is saying you have to like it or that you have to GTFO, but please stop whining as a courtesy to other players
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2007.07.05 22:15:00 -
[32]
Eve isn't a PvE game... it's a PvP game. While it is true that "everything in Eve is PvP," the PvE aspects are important. PvE, whether through mining, ratting or missioning, is the primary way to make ISK for most players. Most players are trying to maximize ISK in one way or another. Not many inexperienced players make much money through PvP. For that matter, from reading the C&P forums, not that many experienced players make that much ISK through PvP. A lot of "pirates" spend a good amount of time ratting, mining or missioning to pay for their PvP habit.
It is simply unreasonable to tell people to "go elsewhere" - especially when it would be relatively easy to redistribute the agents. You have to give people an incentive to go elsewhere. We have a problem akin to the Tragedy of the Commons - why should I give up the good rewards so that there is less lag in the system for everyone else? It is clear that lag doesn't drive lots of people away from rich rewards. I am afraid that lag in the system is not a well-designed incentive to get people into low sec or 0.0.
Even if the agents were left in the same systems they are now, averaging out the quality of the agents would do a lot. If all agents of each level were the same quality, and only differentiated by "real danger," it would tend to move people away from the laggy areas and spread people out a bit more.
As I suggested earlier, make it clear in the tutorial that all corporations give the same missions and the same rewards, albeit with different percentages of courier vs. kill missions. That way new players don't spend three months building standing with the faction Navy because they think it is the only path to the best ships/equipment. That way you spread the player base out more.
The other thing to do is to make low sec or 0.0 more appealing to players who want to make more ISK. Thus far, CCP has not done anything to do that.
The addition of Level 5s doesn't work because the reward is not great enough relative to the risk posed by pirates. Not to mention that many players don't have the skills to do the missions. CCP has to add content geared towards the "average player," not someone who has been playing for two years - unless that actually is the "average player," which I doubt. I don't have the stats on this, but I would guess that the "average player" has around three-six months experience, if that.
In my opinion, if CCP actually wants people to move to low sec or 0.0, they need to make it more lucrative. I suggest making all agents of the same level the same quality in "truly safe" high sec space - systems where there is no chance of being sent to low sec on a mission. Make the rewards substantially higher in "somewhat safe" high sec space - systems where there is a chance of being sent to low sec on a mission. And make the rewards much higher in low sec space. This is already in the game to a certain extent, it just hasn't been properly balanced or thoughtfully implemented. If I can make the same ISK/hour running a mission in 0.8 with a high quality agent as I can in 0.6 with a lower quality agent - why would I run the mission in 0.6 and risk getting blown up by more experienced players?
The risk vs. reward needs to be made obvious. You might even put it in the tutorial - a mission in 0.8 is worth A, the same mission in 0.6 is worthy A*B, the same mission in 0.4 is worth (A*B)^2. Make it clear that being a target for players with more experience is actually rewarding. Those who don't want to PvP won't have to, they just won't make as much ISK as the others.
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Karynn Carrion
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.07.05 22:41:00 -
[33]
Originally by: vanBuskirk To those who say "move":
Two solutions seem to be offered - move to lowsec, and likely lose instead of gaining standing, and certainly lose isk heavily, because some spotty 1337 p1r4t3 likes the looks of your modules or just plain wants to blow someone up because he's bored and/or likes ruining someone's day - or move to another corp and start going up the agent level ladder again, and waste the dozens of hours you've spent gaining hundreds of thousands of LP, and wait an extra six months for your faction BS.
Please stop.This thread isn't about lo sec piracy(which is all fair as far as I'm concerned)it's about the distribution of agents and ways to help cut down lag.
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Firecrak
Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.06 01:03:00 -
[34]
Try Jel.
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FT Diomedes
Gallente Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2007.07.06 02:15:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Firecrak Try Jel.
As you probably know, agents in Jel sometimes send you to Egghelende, which is almost always gate camped and has a high pirate population. The rewards of working out of Jel just are not high enough to justify the risk and hassle of dealing with pirates.
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.06 11:42:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Karynn Carrion without all having to pile in 1 system for a L4 Q13
Ooh, I always love to chant about 'dynamic balancing', which would fix event this.
Something like, the more individual people there are doing missions for the agent, the less rewards he'll give (hey, he doesn't need to pay that much to get his jobs done) -> less future people attracted for that system -> nobody is forced to move..
-Lasse
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Chepe Nolon
Core Domination Big Bang Quantum
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Posted - 2007.07.06 13:16:00 -
[37]
TBH, I didn't know what lag was until I tried doing missions in Motsu. I decided pretty quickly to try another agent that was in 0.5. I got less sec gain, but more LP. Still, I'll move out as fast as I've repaired my caldari/amarr standings.
Only reason I do Caldari Navy, is because I'm currently -2 to caldari and this is the only caldari corp I've worked for in the past (when there was no divisions in corps). I prefer doing security agents in production corps as they have production capabilities, good recycle and very often free office slots.
I don't want to go to low sec, and I don't need to.
Chepe Nolon -- My notes about agent missions. |
vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.07.06 17:55:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Karynn Carrion
Originally by: vanBuskirk To those who say "move":
Two solutions seem to be offered - move to lowsec, and likely lose instead of gaining standing, and certainly lose isk heavily, because some spotty 1337 p1r4t3 likes the looks of your modules or just plain wants to blow someone up because he's bored and/or likes ruining someone's day - or move to another corp and start going up the agent level ladder again, and waste the dozens of hours you've spent gaining hundreds of thousands of LP, and wait an extra six months for your faction BS.
Please stop.This thread isn't about lo sec piracy(which is all fair as far as I'm concerned)it's about the distribution of agents and ways to help cut down lag.
When several people's reflex response to complaints about missions is "grow a pair, move to losec and let yourself get blown up or STFU" then lowsec piracy becomes part of the issue.
Now that I've started on that subject, there are several possible solutions to this problem in my opinion, of varying degrees of difficulty for implementation and effectiveness.
One is to improve, massively, NPC AI and decrease their number and raw damage output. Why would this help? Simple. PvP and ratting/mission fits would then become much more similar; and this would mean that a mission-runner would have some sort of chance, when probed out by a pirate, of surviving the encounter. Of course, this would produce such a chorus of whining, from pirates currently getting easy kills, that it ain't never going to happen - given CCP's obvious pro-pirate bias. Nor do I think that CCP has the programming skill to do it in the first place.
Incidentally, this would improve immersion in the game. Personally, I think it somewhat ridiculous that I can take a full-on attack from 8 battleships and win. This is nothing even close to realistic.
Another is to change the current situation, where your ship is difficult to probe when in deadspace but if you launch drones you might as well be turning on an "attack me" beacon. This is a gross imbalance; when combined with the drone aggro bugs and the artificial stupidity of said drones (going off and doing their own thing instead of what they're told), it makes it very difficult to use drone boats in missions, particularly in lowsec. Or even to use drones as a secondary weapon.
I use a Raven in missions, simply because it's the best tool for the job. This of course gives Caldari a built-in advantage if they wish to become mission-runners, and gives anyone who doesn't want to spam missiles all day the shaft.
Another solution is to exclude supercapitals from Empire altogether. Swanning around in lowsec in a mothership is an I-Win button for pirates; nobody can kill you, if only because they can't stop you! It is also grossly unrealistic, and immersion-ruining, to suppose that any government would allow monstrously powerful warships in their space. It's as if you could buy and run a Nimitz-class aircraft carrier if you had the cash - and there are a few individuals, and more companies, that could do this in RL if allowed.
You may have noticed that these changes are not mutually exclusive.
Do all this, and maybe people other than pirates would live in lowsec. At the moment, for a non-pirate, it simply isn't worth the massive extra risk for the slightly improved reward.
---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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Bleys Vontagen
Gallente Phoenix Logistics Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.06 20:32:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 05/07/2007 10:22:39 EVE Agents shows quite a few decent highsec L4s for Gallente...
THe problem is that most of those agents run you into lowsec, even if they're not in lowsec. And, since you're running missions alone, if you have any skills at all, you have no chance to the wolfpacks, gate-camps and the mere fact that PvP set ups are better than PvE setups for PvP -- especially when the mission runner is tanking an entire mission while the pirate just adds to the misery index.
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gigatech2000
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Posted - 2007.07.07 07:13:00 -
[40]
I was running mission at Dodixie and Aunia 3 months ago, then i moved to .2 system to avoid lag. Well guess what? the lag is the same, sometimes its worst than I was at dodixie. Go figure
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gigatech2000
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Posted - 2007.07.07 07:27:00 -
[41]
sometimes when i activate my gears it takes a few seconds and gets really choppy even when theres only 5 persons on local. But I only lost 1 ship to pirate and its not my 5 bil mission ship. After doing missions on low sec i will never go to high sec doing mission again. the reward is just way to good on low sec.
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SaorAlba
Cataclysm Enterprises Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2007.07.07 09:18:00 -
[42]
I have a few suggestions as well for CCP.
- Stop dropping loot cans to lag the **** out the system if your not intending to make it worthwile to actualy loot them. - Drop less cans but make it more worthwhile to actually loot them. - Put the reward and or mission requirements hidden in one of the WRECKS to force looting and random it. - Create a skill to remotely talk to your agents and accept missions. Take in account the security level and place of requist while generating such a mission. - Erase the wrecks and cans left after finishing the mission. This will force looting before reporting finishing wich is the smart thing to do anyway.
Discuss:)
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Zo5o
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Posted - 2007.07.07 11:03:00 -
[43]
Quote: - Erase the wrecks and cans left after finishing the mission. This will force looting before reporting finishing wich is the smart thing to do anyway.
So we can't use MWD to loot/salvage? No.
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SaorAlba
Cataclysm Enterprises Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2007.07.07 11:14:00 -
[44]
Low system runners allready are forced to loot before ending the mission. Remember you can't have it your way at the time:) and the goal is to decrease the lag here.
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Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.07 11:27:00 -
[45]
Why worry about hi sec agents and creating laggy mission hubs when CCP can give us things like Heat or the wonderful new lvl 5 agents.
I've looked at running missions for most factions and they all suffer from the same problems.Things like 1 decent agent in hi sec and all the rest(as many as 5) in 1 system in lo sec.
Questions I would like answered include: When was the last time CCP looked at agent placement? Have CCP introduced any new agents in the last 2 years? Do CCP intend on looking into reducing lag in the hubs which they created?
I know CCP never envisaged more than 40 or 50 people in a fleet fight so is it safe to assume they never envisaged this amount of people running missions either?
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.07 11:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: SaorAlba Low system runners allready are forced to loot before ending the mission. Remember you can't have it your way at the time:) and the goal is to decrease the lag here.
So the people smart enough to spread out and use lag free agents are supposed to suffer because of the whiney cattle that keep on clogging up the hubs? I think not.
Thanks SkyFlyer!
There is no 'n' in turret |
Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.07 13:19:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: SaorAlba Low system runners allready are forced to loot before ending the mission. Remember you can't have it your way at the time:) and the goal is to decrease the lag here.
So the people smart enough to spread out and use lag free agents are supposed to suffer because of the whiney cattle that keep on clogging up the hubs? I think not.
I Agree.Also,with the game freezing/lagging everytime you open a wreck in the hubs it now takes twice as long to loot and salvage.If you had to loot/salvage before telling the agent you have finished it would probably mean missing the time bonus.
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Ishbuanium
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Posted - 2007.07.10 18:06:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Susan Acid I Agree.Also,with the game freezing/lagging everytime you open a wreck in the hubs it now takes twice as long to loot and salvage.If you had to loot/salvage before telling the agent you have finished it would probably mean missing the time bonus.
The lag is annoying but i doubt on many missions that you will loose the time bonus. Honestly a few hours is easily enough.
Back on topic: Yep, the agents need to be more plentiful and more spaced out.
And to the person/people that said eve is a PVP game, I think you're wrong. EVE is a game with a PVP side and a PVE side. While the PVE side might not be as entertaining to some, it still exists and it ought to be recognized.
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Steel Tigeress
Gallente Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.11 05:27:00 -
[49]
Quote: EVE is not one of them, its a pvp game with some pve content. Its not likely to change and if it did the game would be over.
I love it when people say that. Its like saying the US is a chinese country, because some chinese people live here. Or substitute any nationality.. Anyway you look at it its just not true.
EvE may have been designed as a PvP game, but currently the population density says otherwise. If EvE was a PvP game, low-sec and 0.0 would be packed to the brim, and people would be saying "If you dont like the lag, move to empire"....but thats never said because EvE is just a game. And right now most of the people playing it dont PvP.
Though I will agree most that post on the forums do pvp, dunno what social connotations that has.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.11 06:23:00 -
[50]
Originally by: SaorAlba Low system runners allready are forced to loot before ending the mission. Remember you can't have it your way at the time:) and the goal is to decrease the lag here.
Ok let's look your idea from the less lag point of view:
current system: after 1 hour of running a mission it is delivered, cans live another hour (most mission require about that time to loot).
Number of static items from 50 to 0 for 1 hour (as they are decreasing while you loot), about 50% of the mission runners loot the mission, 10 mission runners in system = (50*5) (unlooted missions)+(25*5)(average number of wrecks in the missions under looting)= 375 wrecks.
Same thing with your idead: Number of static items 80 (50 cans +30 scenery, i.e. buildings, asteroids, ecc.) to 30 for 1,30 hour (slower looting) for 5 looted missions (the other 5 disappear on delivery). So average number of static items = 55*5*1.5= 412.5
While the number are questionable, as the variable in scenery and loot time is huge, I suspect that keeping the mission open for 1-1,5 hours more is worst that only keeping the wrecks. Reducing the scenery in missions would be a better move.
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Sazkyen
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:14:00 -
[51]
Originally by: tiewan I think all L4 agents should be moved to lowsec
Why? So SPARTA and the gazillion of other pirate corps can gatecamp you? No thanks.
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neutero
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:25:00 -
[52]
Once I could access the Motsu agents, 1 year ago, I decided it wasn't woth the lag and moved to Otsasai. There the space is black, the risks appreciated and the rewards well worth it (~10k lp per mission).
Take your nappy/diaper off, acknowledge the risks and get the reward. |
Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:27:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Steel Tigeress
Quote: EVE is not one of them, its a pvp game with some pve content. Its not likely to change and if it did the game would be over.
EvE may have been designed as a PvP game, but currently the population density says otherwise. If EvE was a PvP game, low-sec and 0.0 would be packed to the brim, and people would be saying "If you dont like the lag, move to empire".
Yup.Just opening the map will tell you that 90% of 0.0 is a ghost town and anywhere you see 100/150 people they are likely getting slaughtered because of the lag and desyncs.
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neutero
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Posted - 2007.07.11 11:58:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Susan Acid Yup.Just opening the map will tell you that 90% of 0.0 is a ghost town and anywhere you see 100/150 people they are likely getting slaughtered because of the lag and desyncs.
Get a grip dude, you're mixing 0.0 fleet battles with > 0.0 sec mission agents. Not the same thing. |
Harry tossis
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.07.11 14:38:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Harry tossis on 11/07/2007 14:38:03
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Sid b
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Posted - 2007.07.12 10:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Zo5o
Quote: - So we can't use MWD to loot/salvage? No.
um yes you can, just finish the mission first...
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Susan Acid
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.12 11:48:00 -
[57]
Originally by: neutero
Originally by: Susan Acid Yup.Just opening the map will tell you that 90% of 0.0 is a ghost town and anywhere you see 100/150 people they are likely getting slaughtered because of the lag and desyncs.
Get a grip dude, you're mixing 0.0 fleet battles with > 0.0 sec mission agents. Not the same thing.
My mistake.I thought this was about lag in general.
This is about the placement/lack of hi sec agents not 0.0 lo sec agents.
You are right.They are 2 entirely seperate things.CCP can help reduce lag for the mission runners but cannot do a thing for the people fighting in large fleets.
not exactly sure what you mean by get a grip tbh.
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Guillame Herschel
Gallente Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.07.12 20:38:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly I hope you're not under the impression that that's a nice amount of LPs for a lvl 4 mission... My high sec agent (Q18 in 0.6) gives me over 7400 max. That's with both relevant connection books at 4.
Same skill levels here, but my L4Q20 Gallente agents are in 0.0 and I get 12756 LP for the best L4 missions. I get about 2700 LP for the simplest courier missions like "My Little Girl." If I hunker down and grind, I can get enough LP for a Navy Issue Vexor about every other day, or a Navy Issue Megathron every week.
-- Guile can always trump hardware -- |
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