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Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 00:13:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Medea Nephtys on 05/07/2007 00:17:18 Hey there, since a lot of people seem to have the same opinion and think Amarr are gimped, I would suggest to boost lasers just a bit. The main problem of lasers are the cap amounts they need and the damage types they deal: mainly EM and an small portion of thermal damage. Now, I don't have to tell you that being restricted to EM damage sucks, since ships like the vagabond have an initial resistance of 92,5%... (many ships have high initial EM-resistances).
So, my simple idea would be to add a new attribute, exclusively for lasers: Piercing!
This attribute would ignore a small amount of EM-resistance. Should be about 20 or 30 percent. So if a ship has 90% resistance, multiply that value by 0.70 (or 0.80) ... would result in 63% (or 72%) resistance left for the target in this case. The lower the resi-value, the lower the effect of piercing, sounds fair, eh?
In addition, this attribute would give Amarr a little racial trait.
/discuss
P.S.: Sorry for my english, but I'm not a native speaker.
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Laice
Caldari The Greater Good
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Posted - 2007.07.05 01:23:00 -
[2]
hmm i did play amarr once in a previous character. I myself do not like lasers, but the idea of "penetration" (ok you can all giggle again) i think would complicate it a little too much. Eve is nicely balanced now :) i could play it as it is for a year.
I do agree though that lasers arn't massively powerful but remember that small amount of EM can do massive damage to caldari ships which have base resistances pretty low :)
Fly safe Laice Fly safe y'all
My idea of an operating system is one that OPERATES THE SYSTEM. Not one that looks pretty.
DOWN WITH VISTA - Self confessed microsoft hater. Burn it.
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lofty29
Infinitus Odium
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Posted - 2007.07.05 01:43:00 -
[3]
You already got a 25% bonus to all tracking speeds. What more do you need ---
Project Mayhem |
Laice
Caldari The Greater Good
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Posted - 2007.07.05 01:50:00 -
[4]
i must confess to be a missile fan now. Dont matter how far away or close they are so long as they're not in an interceptor going faster than the missiles or using defenders you cant really loose :) Fly safe y'all
My idea of an operating system is one that OPERATES THE SYSTEM. Not one that looks pretty.
DOWN WITH VISTA - Self confessed microsoft hater. Burn it.
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.07.05 01:57:00 -
[5]
that is actually a very good idea, although your numbers are a bit insain (would overpower then quite heavily). but the idea is very nice. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 02:03:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Medea Nephtys on 05/07/2007 02:02:48 Crest, you might be right... 10% or 15% would better do...
Originally by: lofty29 You already got a 25% bonus to all tracking speeds. What more do you need
But that was to pulse lasers only, or not?
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.07.05 02:27:00 -
[7]
I expect CCP to move on with the omni-tank adjustments if the cpu increase/reduction on the eanm/hardeners doesn't pay off enough. For example a base reduction of armors native EM resistance.
Adding a 5th damage type comes with a massive amount of work for a problem that has plenty less labor intensive solutions.
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 02:33:00 -
[8]
Indeed... lowering the average EM-resistance would be a solution.
But on the other hand... my idea would make mission running for true amarrians i little bit easier, since we cannot match to the suggested damage types of a mission. :( All we have is EM/Term, that's it... although I must admit, that hybrid-turret users have to cope with the same problem.
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.07.05 02:37:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Medea Nephtys Edited by: Medea Nephtys on 05/07/2007 02:02:48 Crest, you might be right... 10% or 15% would better do...
Originally by: lofty29 You already got a 25% bonus to all tracking speeds. What more do you need
But that was to pulse lasers only, or not?
yer i have snatched the idea because i thought it was really good;) but with a 2% per lvl of the skill (a max of 10%)
and yer it was pulse lasers and ONLY so it could get in line with the tracking of all other close range turrets:) ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 02:42:00 -
[10]
Nice idea putting the "piercing"-attribute into a skill... could be called "focus energy" or something like that.
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.07.05 03:05:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Washell Olivaw on 05/07/2007 03:09:22
Originally by: Medea Nephtys Indeed... lowering the average EM-resistance would be a solution.
But on the other hand... my idea would make mission running for true amarrians i little bit easier, since we cannot match to the suggested damage types of a mission. :( All we have is EM/Term, that's it... although I must admit, that hybrid-turret users have to cope with the same problem.
You do have a drone bay which can contain the correct dmg. Though I admit it's a bit on the cramped side. Or does true Amarrian means you only use Amarr drones?
Edit: Just noticeed 2 new skills in the item database for gunnery. Armor Breaching and Shield Piercing. Perhaps they're going to provide a bigger bonus to EM then other dmg types?
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Anubis Xian
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Posted - 2007.07.05 06:07:00 -
[12]
Critical Strikes (rank 5) -Controlled Bursts 5 --Gunnery 2
Grants Lasers 4% resistance bypass per level.
Basically at lvl 5, Lasers will do a normal hit +20% of resisted damage:
Hit on 0% EM = 100 Dmg Hit on 50% EM = 50 Dmg Hit on 50% EM with CB lvl 5 = 60 Dmg
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.05 12:38:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/07/2007 12:40:30
Don't make it too complicated. I think some small changes will suffice.
Right now there are three problems for EM damage:
1. Unnecessarily high EM shield resistances on many NPCs, even on the armor tanking ones. Yes it's true Amarr have the least options for changing their dmg type. Therefore EM damage should be more of a surefire damage type. I think at least shields should always go down fastest under laser fire.
2. Omni tanks in PvP. I think the devs are on the right track with this one. It's not the only reason why lasers suck atm, but definitely a major one.
3. High natural EM armor resistance. Totalised shield basic resistances: 0+60+40+20 = 120 Totalised armor basic resistances: 60+10+35+35 = 140
Laser base damage is fine. Resistances are the problem.
Set of small changes: - Lower NPC EM shield resistances - Make omni tanks a bit less mandatory/optimal/viable - Reduce base EM armor resistance by 5% across the board. - Shift 5% of Minmatar armor resistances from EM to Thermal. (As Thermal is also a part of laser dmg, this won't weaken their 'contra Amarr' approach. All others will be at 55% EM)
Overall reducing or changing resistances is almost the same as making EM damage piercing. So I hope you don't mind my slight hijacking. The only difference is that it doesn't require the addition of new game mechanics.
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 13:01:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Washell Olivaw You do have a drone bay which can contain the correct dmg. Though I admit it's a bit on the cramped side. Or does true Amarrian means you only use Amarr drones?
No, but the drone damage is not sufficient for most Amarr ships. And well... other ships without the "we-do-EM-damage-only"-problem (all Non-Amarrians) have a drone bay, too. So drones don't matter in this discussion.
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.05 16:31:00 -
[15]
I'd be just as happy to see a way for lasers to do a varied damage type. From a 'real' POV it makes some sense but at the same time, high-power lasers do have a kinetic impact. I'm sure that a laser sufficiently powerful to be a real weapon could 'hit' something pretty hard. Regardless, I think the real problems with the amarr are their total inability to change damage and the fact that they are completely imbalanced. Amarr vs shield tank = good fight. Amarr vs Armor tank = extremely hard fight. If lasers were tweaked to allow more thermal damage and/or a kinetic crystal was added to the game, things may balance out better for them. Then the gallente will whine that they only get kin/therm. but half their ships have drones as primary weapons anyway... sidetracked. sorry.
ANYWAY
Something needs to change because the amarr are gimped on damage (and range if the rumors are true) butI don't think bypassing a resistance is the way to fix them. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Lagar
Caldari Core Domination
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Posted - 2007.07.05 18:12:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Lagar on 05/07/2007 18:11:52 it's actualy alittle ironic that amarr (that seams to be weakest from a tecnological standpoint) have the best weapon against the caldari
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Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 18:19:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lagar Edited by: Lagar on 05/07/2007 18:11:52 it's actualy alittle ironic that amarr (that seams to be weakest from a tecnological standpoint) have the best weapon against the caldari
Sure? Don't u think a shield tanker (caldari) would add a lot of EM-resistance?
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.05 18:25:00 -
[18]
I'm extremely annoyed (as caldari) that even my T2 ships have a 0 EM resist. what the heck is that. Base armor tanks have a 10% resist to their weakest damage. But I'm stuck with a zero.
Boo to that. but it's off topic. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.05 18:30:00 -
[19]
The less your initial resistance is, the higher is the impact of hardeners.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.05 18:36:00 -
[20]
1. Damage types Hybrids are Kin/Therm only. Projectiles are mostly Exp/Kin. Nobody complains. A Blasterthron doesn't rely on drones and does Kin/Therm only, always. Nobody complains. I really don't think that's the issue. The issue is that EM/Therm is considered to be inferior. Why that? Damage amount on lasers is the same and on Amarr ships with dmg bonus it is actually higher(!) than. The only answer is: Resistances. Deny it all you want.
2. Imbalance Gallente vs shield tank = neither hard nor easy Gallente vs armor tank = neither hard nor easy Minmatar vs shield tank = hard fight. Minmatar vs armor tank = easy fight. Amarr is just different. They are balanced, albeit a bit more extreme.
3. Not enough thermal damage Multifrequency L does 28 EM and 20 Therm damage. That's 71,5% thermal damage. It's not a tiny fraction.
Half the Gallente ships have drones as primary weapons? Name them please. I don't see that many Vexors flying around. And the fact that everybody and his dog pilots a Dominix or Myrmidon will change very quickly once those two get properly balanced. Anyway I always thought long range fleet fights would be the real PvP. At least that's what all the complaining in 'missiles are so bad for PvP' threads is about. Yet Dominix and Myrmidon seem to be the PvP role models, although they're short range ships. Makes no sense to me tbh.
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
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Neuromandis
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Posted - 2007.07.05 20:48:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Neuromandis on 05/07/2007 20:47:37 misclick... --- If someone else from my corp or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. So, assume nobody ever does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
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CrestoftheStars
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.07.05 22:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 05/07/2007 22:54:09
Originally by: Tarron Sarek Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 05/07/2007 18:37:29 3. Not enough thermal damage Multifrequency L does 28 EM and 20 Therm damage. That's 71,5% thermal damage. It's not a tiny fraction.
?! how do you get that to 71,5% ?! 28+20=58. then find what 20 of 58 is in precent. which is 34,48% of the dmg, so the best thermal dmg is still only around 1/3 of the full dmg. which is not a tiny fraction, but still very low.
edit: and missiles are bad since all missile boats are shield tanking ships, which means that they are getting an evil penalty to their tank when they use the "most have Ew" (scrambler and webber) and the fact that alot of ships simply moves too fast for torps/cruise/heavy missiles to have any high or noticable effect on them because of the exsplosive velocity, etc. ___________________________________________ Humans take everything that is beautiful and sweet and turn it into something horrifying and ugly.
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.05 22:56:00 -
[23]
and a domi makes a good mid-range ship. T2 sentry drones, 350mm railguns. Sit at 70km and kaboom away. If somebody gets close, you scoop the sentries, deploy whatever works for who got close to you...
Anyway. Your math was off but Crest already corrected you on that one. The problem is- Kin/therm are not the strongest resists on either armor or shields. so a kin/therm damage is still at least decent. projectile weapons can fit all sorts of ammo so I'm not sure where you get mostly exp/kin... emp? round? plasma? nuclear...you get the idea. Missiles can obviously be whatever they want which is why I think the time to target is an important limitation. The most popular PvP ships are armor tanks. Even with only an EANM, you lose 70% of the damage from your ONLY options.
And just cuz you don't see myrms and domis running around doing PvP doesn't mean they aren't used for it. I build them both en masse because they sell. fast. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente Endica Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.06 00:03:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 06/07/2007 00:11:13
Originally by: CrestoftheStars ?! how do you get that to 71,5% ?! 28+20=58. then find what 20 of 58 is in precent. which is 34,48% of the dmg, so the best thermal dmg is still only around 1/3 of the full dmg. which is not a tiny fraction, but still very low.
Erm, well.. yeah.. Let me correct your correction: Thermal is 71,5% of EM damage and 41,67% overall. It's not a tiny fraction. Also edited it in my previous post.
Anyhow - Since when is 20+28=58?
Originally by: CrestoftheStars (..)and the fact that alot of ships simply moves too fast for torps/cruise/heavy missiles to have any high or noticable effect on them because of the exsplosive velocity, etc.
1. Please name those ships'. Interceptors, Vagabonds... and?
2. If targets are too fast for missiles to hit, they are almost certainly also too fast for any turret to track. Therefore, I fail to see the inherent disadvantage of missiles.
Yamichi, would you please care to read my posting more carefully? - Crest was wrong with his 'math'. - please check T2 projectile ammo - I wrote:"And the fact that everybody and his dog pilots a Dominix or Myrmidon" = I see a lot of Dominix'es Myrmidons, actually almost exclusively.
_________________________________ - Balance is power, guard it well.. - |
Medea Nephtys
Herrscher der Zeit
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Posted - 2007.07.06 00:07:00 -
[25]
But in order to evade turrets, you need to achieve a high radial speed... (moving around you attacker)... but for missiles, it doesn't matter, you just have to keep moving. =)
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Jargo Stonecutter
Gallente Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.06 01:08:00 -
[26]
I basicly love the idea of penetration damage from lasers but in a little different version.
I would like to see the penetration damage connected to the "tactical shield manipulation" skill and that only 5-10% of the damage would leak through at lvl5 of that skill. an example: laser hits (100dmg) shield resist (80%) shield takes 20HP dmg bit of damage "leakes" through (@skill lvl5 10%) armor takes 2HP
And i would love it if the Tachyon Beam gets a special role with penetration damage. Same dmg etc as a mega beam BUT 50% leakes through or something like that.
May you live in interresting times. |
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