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Caellach Marellus
Nephtys Ventures inc
384
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:24:00 -
[31] - Quote
Thgil Goldcore wrote:So a Matari conducts an investigation and resorts to force immediately against concord forces. It attracts no attention from all the people who where so critical of my investigation. Funny isn't it.
Ahem.
Still seeing only what you want to see Captain? |
N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
30
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
On a purely personal note, as a Matari and a Vherokior, I cannot see how this attack helps our people in any way. N'maro Makari Special Investigative Officer The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
30
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:Thanks!
Need anymore be said? N'maro Makari Special Investigative Officer The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
Khazarn Areth
The Black Pigs The Black Pigs Alliance
74
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:28:00 -
[34] - Quote
The Matari are right to not trust CONCORD and the Imperial Loyalists, from all their most recent schemes and actions that much is obvious. Bloody Omir's coming back Monsters from the endless black Wading through a crimson flood Omir's come to drink your blood |
Borascus
Hole Diggers
25
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
I usually err on the side of neutrality when I observe incidents like this, and I intend to do so now.
Although the Amarrian's appear to be in charge a joint operation with DED / CONCORD would normally warrant a high ranking Amarrian as the Amarrian lead. I'd go so far to stipulate that an Amarrian rewarded with an Imperial Issue vessel is a quite normal allocation of command for something this influential.
The part that I do not find normal, and I do not speak for the Arek'Jaalan Project here, is that the force intending to repel a future Sansha attack has forbidden Arek'Jaalan researchers from assisting in the fight against Sansha's Nation.
I feel that given the Arek'Jaalan researchers' tendencies to mastery knowledge they would be a valuable asset in the fight. The exclusion of Arek'Jaalan pilots strikes me as labeling ALL Arek'Jaalan researchers as Sansha Sympathisers. This I do not accept. |
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
151
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:49:00 -
[36] - Quote
Borascus wrote:Although the Amarrian's appear to be in charge a joint operation with DED / CONCORD would normally warrant a high ranking Amarrian as the Amarrian lead. I'd go so far to stipulate that an Amarrian rewarded with an Imperial Issue vessel is a quite normal allocation of command for something this influential.
I respectfully disagree, it is not normal at all for DED forces to be placed under the command of Empire, REpublic, State or Federation. CONCORD is supposedly the international law enforcement agency of our time, its jurisdiction spans all of its member states, with the probable exception of the Jove, if you want to be precise. CONCORD has the authority to deploy its forces at will.
This situation where DED vessels have been deployed to guard an Imperial-run facility under what seems to be Amarrian command is to my knowledge unprecedented.
As already helpfully highlighted by Myxx, one of Nation's foremost commanders is already well aware of that something is going on in Monalaz, as we can see from the communications he boastfully released himself. It is not Nation that have been kept in the dark all this time, its the rest of us. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
30
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Posted - 2012.01.08 21:56:00 -
[37] - Quote
Borascus wrote:I usually err on the side of neutrality when I observe incidents like this, and I intend to do so now.
Although the Amarrian's appear to be in charge a joint operation with DED / CONCORD would normally warrant a high ranking Amarrian as the Amarrian lead. I'd go so far to stipulate that an Amarrian rewarded with an Imperial Issue vessel is a quite normal allocation of command for something this influential.
The part that I do not find normal, and I do not speak for the Arek'Jaalan Project here, is that the force intending to repel a future Sansha attack has forbidden Arek'Jaalan researchers from assisting in the fight against Sansha's Nation.
I feel that given the Arek'Jaalan researchers' tendencies to mastery knowledge they would be a valuable asset in the fight. The exclusion of Arek'Jaalan pilots strikes me as labeling ALL Arek'Jaalan researchers as Sansha Sympathisers. This I do not accept.
I'm going to point out the obvious here
Its because all it takes is one bright spark who stamps Arek'Jaalan all over everything who finds somethign moderately interesting but of no scientific significance and just goes ahead and spills everything over the public mailing list, and things like this happen.
This is all due to Arek'jaalan's indescrepancy with information. N'maro Makari Special Investigative Officer The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
Myyona
Ataraxia Pharmacies
12
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
N'maro Makari wrote:On a purely personal note, as a Matari and a Vherokior, I cannot see how this attack helps our people in any way. I agree with this.
Sadly, the Elders set a bad precedence for many Matari. CEO - Ataraxia Pharmacies Biography |
Kazzzi
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
87
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:18:00 -
[39] - Quote
U'K helping Sansha?
I'm willing to bet that over the past eight years Ushra'Khan has destroyed more Nation ships and assets than every other Corp or alliance whose members have posted in this thread combined. Probably more than any other group here ever will. A few months ago people started to notice what a threat Sansha really is. We've known this for years and have been fighting them accordingly.
An utter lack of oversight has enabled Concord to pursue its pro-Imperial bias with impunity. The rest of the free universe should take notice before it's too late. |
Diana Kim
Wolfsbrigade
39
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:22:00 -
[40] - Quote
Ugleb wrote: We call upon CONCORD to explain the actions of its forces and the involvement of these 'Justicars' within the DED. Why are DED forces guarding an Amarrian facility? Why is the Commander of this facility apparently an Imperial officer?
I'm not CONCORD, but, Im afraid, that their representatives won't answer on such questions here. Maybe, because the answers are too obvious. Let me remind you about current political situation.
1. Monalaz constellation IS Amarr territory. Amarr Empire has sovereign right to operate any facilities here. 2. Amarr Empire is lawful society and can request any support from CONCORD to defend its facilities from any known or unknown pirate threats. 3. DED involvement implies anti-pirate nature of facility under discussion. 4. What else commander except of Imperial officer did you expect to find in Imperial facility in Imperial space?
Well, I tried :) If you still have questions, I'd recommend you asking them in CONCORD educational center, I think they can explain things much better, than I. |
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
295
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:37:00 -
[41] - Quote
EDIT:
I realize it is a waste of my time to argue about this. Ushra'Khan (and indeed every other Capsuleer organization in New Eden) will do what they damn well please, and nothing anyone else can say will change that.
I only hope you realize what you're doing before it's too late.
I am so sorry for you, Ushra'Khan. I truly am. |
Mikkel Lybecker
Gradient Electus Matari
131
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:52:00 -
[42] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:the Arek'jaalan Project, ... of limited interest
Ah, something on IGS I can actually agree with... oh wait...
Ugleb wrote:Why are DED forces guarding an Amarrian facility? Why is the Commander of this facility apparently an Imperial officer?
Hang on, don't DED guard things in Amarr space all the time? And wouldn't a certain proportion of CONCORD officers in Amarr space be Amarr with corporate or ex-corporate interests or whatever? Wouldn't that be entirely normal and expected? So what's the big deal here? Oh, that's right...it's Arek'jalaan related so we all have to treat it like a special snowflake, when it's really just a bunch of scientists doing research just like thousands of other scientists in many other parts of the galaxy do on a daily basis with no fanfare and no capsuleer interest. No-one gave a damn about the researchers who built the Naga, that little scientific endeavour went right under everyone's noses almost right up until they started rolling off the production lines, but everyone's losing their cookies over Tukoss and his pals and they haven't even done anything useful yet.
I'm a Minmatar loyalist and I even escorted Tukoss personally and even I don't care about this. |
Toyo Zaki
Arek'Jaalan Support Initiative
3
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:54:00 -
[43] - Quote
N'maro Makari wrote:
I'm going to point out the obvious here
Its because all it takes is one bright spark who stamps Arek'Jaalan all over everything who finds somethign moderately interesting but of no scientific significance and just go ahead and spill everything over the public mailing list, and things like this happen.
This is all due to Arek'jaalan's indiscretion with information.
This is incorrect. All the key facts about the Monalaz operation were known well before any mentions of it appeared in the Arek'Jaalan mailing list. This can be easily verified thanks to the fact all mails are archived.
The mail that the Nation intercepted from ISHAEKA Commander Vieve Creston, for example, provided the cluster with enough information to know where to look, and it was hardly the only piece of information out there before the AJ mailing list picked the story up.
Not only is the timeline wrong, however, but on this specific matter the Arek'Jaalan project has repeatedly and explicitly stated that it will not endorse any actions taken against the Monalaz operation.
Anyone who thinks this is the fault of a public mailing list, or that the project is responsible, is simply ignoring the facts.
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Toyo Zaki
Arek'Jaalan Support Initiative
3
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Posted - 2012.01.08 22:59:00 -
[44] - Quote
As a tip, Mikkel, when you compare a non-applied research project with a foundational aim of avoiding weaponization to the development of the Naga warship, you appear a little simple. |
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
151
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 23:01:00 -
[45] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:I only hope you realize what you're doing before it's too late.
I am so sorry for you, Ushra'Khan. I truly am.
We are questioning the supposed neutrality of CONCORD and the level of operational control that Imperial forces seem to have over them.
This 'secret mission' you seem so concerned that we have jeopardised is evidently one of the worst kept secrets in the cluster given that Nation have obviously been aware of it for some time. And I put it to you, if just three capsuleers are truly such a grave threat to this 'Operation ISHAEKA' then may the Amarrian's god save them when the Sansha decide to show up, because no-one else will be there to do it for them.
Quote:Hang on, don't DED guard things in Amarr space all the time? And wouldn't a certain proportion of CONCORD officers in Amarr space be Amarr with corporate or ex-corporate interests or whatever? Wouldn't that be entirely normal and expected? So what's the big deal here?
CONCORD do not normally guard the assets of sovereign powers, that is the responsibility of the sovereign nation. They also do not place their vessels under the command of any nation either. Neither statement is true here.
On Arek'jaalan I agree with you, their relevance in this matter is circumstantial, I only mentioned them in the first place as CONCORD saw fit to prohibit them from delving too deeply in that area. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
Balthazar Baraz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.01.08 23:06:00 -
[46] - Quote
Posturing Terrorists trying to justify their malevolent aggression against Imperial and CONCORD assets; which were set-up to defend and investigate the works of the evil mastermind Sansha Kuvakei.
No amount of wild speculation about why CONCORD and Imperial forces working together will justify your criminal actions.
For the record it is pretty clear why they were working together... I won't repeat because its been said in this communication before at least a dozen times.
CONCORD? Pro-Imperial? Hah. Please. That's rather silly, don't you think?
But... even if it was true, don't you think its fairly predictable considering you held CONCORD at gunpoint not so long ago? |
Ugleb
Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan
151
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 23:11:00 -
[47] - Quote
Balthazar Baraz wrote:But... even if it was true, don't you think its fairly predictable considering you held them at gunpoint not so long ago?
You refer to the Elders I presume? Now there's a lengthy debate all of its own. I would reply simply that CONCORD's failings go back much further than a few briefyears of recent history. http://uglebsjournal.wordpress.com/ |
Balthazar Baraz
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
3
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Posted - 2012.01.08 23:17:00 -
[48] - Quote
Ugleb wrote:Balthazar Baraz wrote:But... even if it was true, don't you think its fairly predictable considering you held them at gunpoint not so long ago? You refer to the Elders I presume? Now there's a lengthy debate all of its own. I would reply simply that CONCORD's failings go back much further than a few briefyears of recent history.
A wise man once said...
"When you are offended at any man's fault, turn to yourself and study your own failings. Then you will forget your anger." |
Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
85
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Posted - 2012.01.08 23:30:00 -
[49] - Quote
Tactless, blunt, disregarding any consequences of their actions and refusing to admit an obvious mistake. Can't say I'm surprised. Kudos to your consistency, Ushra'khan. .domination malakim .stillwater |
Kazzzi
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
87
|
Posted - 2012.01.08 23:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Balthazar Baraz wrote:CONCORD? Pro-Imperial? Hah. Please. That's rather silly, don't you think? Nope, not at all.
Balthazar Baraz wrote:A wise man once said...
"When you are offended at any man's fault, turn to yourself and study your own failings. Then you will forget your anger."
You copied that from the introduction page of the Imperial Academy textbook on gerbil racing. |
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N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
30
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Posted - 2012.01.08 23:43:00 -
[51] - Quote
Toyo Zaki wrote:This is incorrect. All the key facts about the Monalaz operation were known well before any mentions of it appeared in the Arek'Jaalan mailing list. This can be easily verified thanks to the fact all mails are archived. The mail that the Nation intercepted from ISHAEKA Commander Vieve Creston, for example, provided the cluster with enough information to know where to look, and it was hardly the only piece of information out there before the AJ mailing list picked the story up. Not only is the timeline wrong, however, but on this specific matter the Arek'Jaalan project has repeatedly and explicitly stated that it will not endorse any actions taken against the Monalaz operation. Anyone who thinks this is the fault of a public mailing list, or that the project is responsible, is simply ignoring the facts.
Quote:Update on Monalaz From: Mark726 Sent: 2011.12.03 06:04 To:
Greetings, fellow pilots,
For those of you who may not recall, near the beginning of Arek'Jaalan's existence, we were warned by CONCORD to stay away from Monalaz (the Constellation you must enter in order to access the EVE Gate and surrounding systems). We were not told of any specific information, but rather warned generally to stay away from CONCORD affairs in that Constellation. After vigorous debate, the Project decided to ignore CONCORD's warning to stay out of Monalaz, while still attempting to stay out of CONCORD's way should any activity present itself. This was perhaps 6 months ago. We have heard nothing from CONCORD about activity since that time.
Just now, as I was moving through Monalaz for Project Compass, Aura presented me with the following information:
"In this dark new era of SanshaGÇÖs Nation incursions, the Monalaz constellation has become home to the most well-funded and notable anti-Sansha taskforce, Operation ISHAEKA (Intaki for GÇ£Leader TwoGÇ¥).
"ISHAEKA represents a multinational effort to coordinate forces against Sansha Kuvakei and oppose his twisted, dystopian visions of conformity and slavish obedience. The tactical response unit is comprised primarily of DED captains, but it is also supplemented by a contingent of elite combat veterans from the Tash-Murkon region. These soldiers are known only as the Justiciars.
"The ISHAEKA taskforce is believed to have relocated to the Monalaz constellation shortly after the conclusion of the first phase of their operation. During Phase One, the taskforce was deployed to the Stain region. Rumors persist that the Justiciars learned something of NationGÇÖs plans while on deployment, and that their choice to relocate to Monalaz, of all places, speaks volumes about what they may have discovered."
It appears to be clear to me that this is what CONCORD wanted us to stay away from. I have not yet had the chance to thoroughly investigate Monalaz for any CONCORD allied structures, but I shall be doing so on my first opportunity.
Warm Regards, Mark726
emphasis mine
No real effort was made to correct this pilots obvious error. Mark726 then proceeded to storm the facility he found with the aid of known pirates Tsunami Cartel. Details of which are also in the mailing list. Would you like me to fetch them?
In any case, the location of ISHEAKA's HQ was not known until it was published by this pilot on the mailing list.
So I re-iterare my previous point and advise you to read your own mails. N'maro Makari Special Investigative Officer The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
Marus Sulla
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
1
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Posted - 2012.01.09 00:11:00 -
[52] - Quote
At lot of heat and not much light.
The fact that Amarrian Slavers have information gained from a raid in Stain +¼s all that concerns me. What did they learn? Why is it being hidden?
You will have to forgive us if we don't just spin ships waiting for that Witch to announce she's found a cure for all ills if we don't just plug in this implant.
Seriously, would you expect us to act any differently?
I think both our enemies and our allies are a lot less surprised than most here.
Regards,
Marus |
Marus Sulla
Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan
2
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Posted - 2012.01.09 00:27:00 -
[53] - Quote
Balthazar Baraz wrote:
CONCORD? Pro-Imperial? Hah. Please. That's rather silly, don't you think?
If a CONCORD Official told me the sky was blue I'd walk outside look up and check for myself.
EVERY Organisation has it's own goals.
Including mine.
Regards,
Marus |
Toyo Zaki
Arek'Jaalan Support Initiative
3
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Posted - 2012.01.09 01:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
N'maro, pleae consult the twelth post in this thread. It's a mail that Sansha's Nation leaked last year, well before Arek'Jaalan even existed. It contains detailed information on Monalaz, possibly more than any other single piece of evidence.
Compared to that, the information sent around Arek'Jaalan lists is irrelevant, and A'J as a whole is largely irrelevant to all of this too. Even the Ushra'Khan members who did this agree on that.
Perhaps next time you should take a moment to look at the available evidence (it was even provided in this same thread earlier) before claiming such outright falsehoods as "the location wasn't known until Arek'Jaalan revealed it." |
N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
30
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Posted - 2012.01.09 01:50:00 -
[55] - Quote
Toyo Zaki wrote:N'maro, pleae consult the twelth post in this thread. It's a mail that Sansha's Nation leaked last year, well before Arek'Jaalan even existed. It contains detailed information on Monalaz, possibly more than any other single piece of evidence.
Compared to that, the information sent around Arek'Jaalan lists is irrelevant, and A'J as a whole is largely irrelevant to all of this too. Even the Ushra'Khan members who did this agree on that.
Perhaps next time you should take a moment to look at the available evidence (it was even provided in this same thread earlier) before claiming such outright falsehoods as "the location wasn't known until Arek'Jaalan revealed it."
Despite the fact that U'K members specifically mention AJ and their public comms, and that the first time the specific system was ever brought to light was on AJ's mailing list...
AJ isnt entirely at fault. They just need to take some responsibility for information they publish.
We're done here. N'maro Makari Special Investigative Officer The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
Toyo Zaki
Arek'Jaalan Support Initiative
3
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Posted - 2012.01.09 02:11:00 -
[56] - Quote
Specific system intel is nothing when you already know the constellation to look in. We're talking about five minute scans across a handful of systems. Stop trying to distort facts. |
N'maro Makari
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
30
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Posted - 2012.01.09 02:16:00 -
[57] - Quote
Toyo Zaki wrote:Specific system intel is nothing when you already know the constellation to look in. We're talking about five minute scans across a handful of systems. Stop trying to distort facts.
The fact is no one cared before one pilot spilt it over the mailing list. N'maro Makari Special Investigative Officer The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative |
Aquila Shadow
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
4
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Posted - 2012.01.09 04:40:00 -
[58] - Quote
Ok, it seems that UK wants a basic answer to the question "why is CONCORD working with our enemy".
The simple answer is......... because the Amarr empire is the only route to the stain region AND (as i said in my second post which pretty much ended the whole argument) nation forces were opperating in the monolaz region which is in AMARR territory. As for not telling the capsuler community why they were there i believe someone from ISKU-RAATA ((sorry i spelled it wrong)) explained it.
Now what you all seem to be missing is CONCORD had probably already informed the leaders of the four empires about there opperations in that region. Tibus Heth, Jamly Sarrum, Jacus Roden and The Elders have probbably decided not to tell us for the blatently obvious reason that we arnt the most reliable people in new eden. |
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam Amarr Empire
56
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Posted - 2012.01.09 05:04:00 -
[59] - Quote
As has already been pointed out, the idea that DED cooperation with these Justicars is something that can just as easily be explained by many other things, more probable things, than some sort of favoritism.
I think I understand the perspective being presented by U'K though, and I do have an appreciation for it. The idea that Concord might be ignoring it's "spiritual" intent of dealing with all the empires equally would be troubling. I don't agree that this particular instance would provide reason to think that is the case though.
As for the issue of Concord possibly hiding things from us, well I can only say one thing to that; so what? Concord, and the DED specifically, have better things to do with their time than try and coddle and nurse the stray cries of outrage from capsuleers. We are a very small fraction of the population of the cluster, and we are not exactly known for having a track record of rational and responsible thought and action, especially when it comes to very important bits of information. As I see it, if the DED is cooperating with the Justicars, regardless of which organization has the "lead role", that the DED would be privy to all information gained during the operation. If the DED has the information it is reasonable to assume that the upper level intelligence agencies of all four empires also have that information because, as has already been said, Nation is a threat to all the empires.
What U'K is asking for, this proof of impartiality through information transparency, is a respectable and understandable thing to be asking for. However there is a good chance that if the DED did reveal what information it and the Justicars have gained, it could make the information operationally useless. Further, U'K, you are an association of pilots, not a sovereign nation (regardless of if you hold mechanical sovereignty over any systems) with diplomatic contact with the Concord Assembly so I don't see any reason you, or I, or CVA, or Goonswarm, etc... should expect that level of information exchange. Have you even attempted to ask the Republic, Federation, or State if they have received the information you are suggesting is being held back by a Pro-Empire Concord? |
Borascus
Hole Diggers
25
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Posted - 2012.01.09 08:10:00 -
[60] - Quote
I'm not saying that this pertains to Arek'Jaalan's research scientists, but some members have combat interests in destroying Sansha's forces that transcend the voluntary contributions to science.
Also, I think the usage of an Intaki word whilst working with the Amarr indicates that the DED Forces have had some influence from the whole assembly, bearing in mind the Intaki language would primarily be spoken in the Gallente Federation, rational though it may be that the word applies from an Intaki that joined Caldari State or perhaps Mordu's Legion. |
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