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Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:07:00 -
[1]
I notice that, when talking about projectiles, most people cite "choosing damage type" as one of the advantages. While Minmatar admittedly have it better then Amarr regarding damage types, it's not *nearly* the same as the way you can choose damage types with missiles.
There are penalities involved, DPS-wise (less raw damage), and all the ammo does mixed damage types.
Let's look at small projectile ammo: * EMP S - 11 damage (5 EM / 4 EXP / 2 KIN) * Fusion S - 10 damage (8 EXP / 2 KIN) * Phased Plasma S - 10 damage (8 THERM / 2 KIN) * Titanium Sabot S - 9 damage (3 EXP / 6 KIN)
and, the most popular T2 variant: * Barrage S - 11 damage (6 EXP / 5 KIN)
All the other ammo does 8 damage or less, making it quite useless for ACs.
As you can see, small T1 AC shells do, in fact, a total 10 damage, except Emp S which has a helping of useless EM damage (useless against armour) and Explosive damage (useless against shields), and therefore isn't nearly as damaging as the other shells in actual combat*.
The real choice in damage types is : do I want explosive damage (Fusion S, Barrage S) or thermal (Phased Plasma S), while being stuck with 20+% of kinetic damage anyway.
Projectiles are definitely not like missiles where you just pick the damage type you need (well, unless you have a bonus to a specific kind of missile). Don't state 'choosing damage type' as some sort of huge advantage in discussions about different kinds of guns. Having to choose between doing THERM/KIN or EXP/KIN or EM/EXP/KIN is not a lot of freedom in choosing damage types, especially considering that for medium / large ACs, the ammo type used will be Barrage (EXP/KIN) 90% of the time, since you need the extra range.
You end up choosing wether you want the neat 'fighting in falloff / decent range' or 'ability to choose damage type'.
Projectiles are fine - but choosing damage types at will is just a myth.
*Which isn't to say it's not useful, just that, it's not as good as the total number says. I still load 1xEmp S, 2x Fusion S if attacking armour tanks in my Rifter, just to get through the shields part a bit quicker and still do lots of explosive when i reach armour.
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Steini OFSI
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:18:00 -
[2]
I'm curious, many armor tankers don't uppper the value of EM resistance alot (nano's but base bonus on high resistance leaves it at let's assume 70%) in the end you're fighting a tank wich tries to have similar defence all around. Having packed EM shells however you're gonna breach through shield quicker and when hitting the armor you're not loosing that high dmg on the EM due to hardeners type of choice so mixing a EM and Kin ammunition isn't that bad at all?
Just speculating
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:19:00 -
[3]
It is even worse, you forgot to mention that the 'good' T1 ammo types (Fusion and PP) only deal 10 total damage while Laser and Hybrid good ammo deals 12...
Though I think you make EMP worse than it is. at leat for PvP. Doing exp and EM means a large portion being useless most of the time, but it also means another large portion being useful most of the time.
If they made Fusion into 12 damage ammo (8 exp/4 kin) and and justed the range on the top 3 according to other ammos, it would be fine imho.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:19:00 -
[4]
Edited by: LUKEC on 16/07/2007 10:20:12
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Projectiles are fine - but choosing damage types at will is just a myth.
It's all grandma's stories to scare little minmatar children untill they meet zealot in vaga and load phased plasma. -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
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Oxymoron666
Gallente Demogorgon's Army
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:29:00 -
[5]
But the other side to this coin is, dealing EM VS a Shield tanker is going to do more damage than EXP is, So if u use say Fusion your pretty much wasting 80% of the damage, where EMP only wastes about 45% of your damage.
Now i agree with shells doing the same types of damage in different amounts, won't do hugely different damage.
But when fighting sansha no point using Fusion when they are going to resist most of it. And same goes for other factions.
PvP you just wanna use the ammo you have the most of :P
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Sokratesz
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:42:00 -
[6]
I use phased plasma most of the time but carry both T2 variants in case i meet an armor tanker or when i need insanity range.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.07.16 10:55:00 -
[7]
Only caldari can hit for 100% pure damage with one damage type. I would love to be able to do the same, but the game isnt designed that way. All turret users get 2 or more damage types for every ammo, and range penalties if you pick high damage ammo.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.07.16 11:01:00 -
[8]
Actually, if you *know* you're going to face a shield tanker, you're most likely going to be better off with Phased Plasma then EMP, especially if the target tried to patch up the EM resist hole .
I still do use EMP a lot - don't get me wrong when I say it's not that great. It's just that I consider it better for attacking armour tankers, where the mix of explosive/EM in one of the guns helps me down the shields faster while still leaving me a lot of explosive when firing at armour.
And, yeah, Antimatter just does more damage flat out (12 vs 11/10), forgot to mention that in the whole ammo discussion.
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Ma Raia'l
Amarr PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.16 11:10:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ma Raia''l on 16/07/2007 11:11:01
Originally by: Jim McGregor Edited by: Jim McGregor on 16/07/2007 10:55:09
Only caldari can hit for 100% pure damage with one damage type. I would love to be able to do the same, but the game isnt designed that way. All turret users get 2 or more damage types for every ammo, and range penalties if you pick high damage ammo.
Minnie can pick between ammo damage types, but give up range and damage when they do.
Radio crystals do 100% EM damage.
Edit: The reason EMP does less total damage than other ammo types (hybrid and crystals) is because it's deals 3 (three!) types of damage in a single shot. You pay for being able to exploit more (possible) holes in a ships resistances.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.07.16 11:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ma Raia'l
Radio crystals do 100% EM damage.
I didnt know that actually, but I guess the damage output is pretty poor to make up for it.
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Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Gavin Darklighter
The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.07.16 11:17:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 16/07/2007 11:23:40 Screw EMP and Barrage, Go balls-out, close to 1km, and unload Hail.
We can choose to do different types of damage, but we are choosing to do less damage if we do so. Not really an advantage if you ask me. I would rather have the DPS of blasters with only Exp/Kn damage.
What bugs me about projectile ammo is that EMP does less damage than the other high-damage turret ammo (Multifreq/Antimatter). Supposedly this is due to it have three damage types instead of three, which CCP seems to see as some sort of advantage. Personaly I see an ammo that deals three seperate damage types to be a DISadvantage, not the other way around.
I would like to see EMP damage buffed to the level of the other ammo classes, and one of the damage types removed. Removing the Exp component and increasing raw damage to 48 would make it great VS shield while making it rather poor agianst armor, a nice trade-off if you ask me; it would take more planning on the part of the pilot to pick ammo wisely, rather than loading a good vs all shell and not caring what the enemy tanks with.
Originally by: Ma Raia'l The reason EMP does less total damage than other ammo types (hybrid and crystals) is because it's deals 3 (three!) types of damage in a single shot. You pay for being able to exploit more (possible) holes in a ships resistances.
So, in the case of EMP large, having eight points of KN on top of EM and EX makes up for doing less damage? Now in the case of EM and EX on same ammo type, I can see one of them hitting a resist hole sometimes; this compensates for the fact that the other damage type hits a highly hardened resist. But the third damage type only deals 8 points, even if you DO hit a hole (and who has a KN hole anyway? I just don't see that happening) you still do crap damage since there is so little of it.
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Entreri Finwe
Raptus Regaliter Pride - Honor - Duty
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Posted - 2007.07.16 11:35:00 -
[12]
I remember a dev posting in here a great while ago and asked the community what we though about reducing proj ammo to only three range groups (like -50%, 0% and +50%) and let the damage types stay the same, he was pretty much shot down...
Wonder if I can find that thread?
Originally by: jarack I de-synced in my bathroom once, now i have no where to wash my hands
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Trojanman190
Caldari Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.16 14:48:00 -
[13]
For PvE choosing damage types is pretty nice. For PvP you generally choose your ammo for range but not always.
Plasma and EMP are very similar and range and overall damage but Plasma does mainly thermal and EMP splits EM damage and thermal damage. If I'm fighting a t2 caldari or gallente ship there is no way Plasma would be the smart choice. If its a t2 caldari ship you can rule out firing t2 ac ammo at their shields. That leaves either Proton or EMP. EMP being the choice since it does the most EM overtime (the kinetic wont matter since they have high kinetic resists anyways) and once you get to armor the explosive will really start tearing them up.
If I'm fighting an ammar t2, there is no way I would use t2 projectile ammo or EMP. Very high em and explosive resists on armor make those two ammo types useless. Id switch to either a kinetic based ammo like Titanium Sabot or Plasma.
You may be saying that 10 seconds is a long time to be changing ammo, it is. In a good gang you will already know your primaries when warping to a battle so you can have your ammo ready. Also, Against certain enemies, some ammo types are so useless that its worth the 10 seconds to change ammo.
That is a great deal of ammo to carry... so you want your main ammo, like t2 to take about 50% of your ammo loadout. Then I usually bring 25% emp, 25% plasma.
I pretty much only fly minmatar ships (vagabond, typhoon ftw) but I always fly an ishkur for the fun of it. There have been a lot of situations where, as I am warping to the target, I really wish I could do something other than kinetic and thermal. I generally rely on my ishkur's drones for explosive damage (and warrior IIs are FAST) but I'm really lacking in EM. My ishkur is pretty useless against a T2 caldari ship and if my drones get hosed (which they often do since they dont return when called...) I'm pretty useless against any gallente or caldari t2 ship. There have been situations where I have been orbiting a target, tackling, and my rail IIs do so little damage its not worth the cap to keep them running.
The choosing damage type argument isn't as uber as a lot of people make it out to be but it can be pretty helpful. The real power of autocannons lies in that cap usage.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.07.16 15:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gavin Darklighter I would like to see EMP damage buffed to the level of the other ammo classes, and one of the damage types removed. Removing the Exp component and increasing raw damage to 48 would make it great VS shield while making it rather poor agianst armor, a nice trade-off if you ask me; it would take more planning on the part of the pilot to pick ammo wisely, rather than loading a good vs all shell and not caring what the enemy tanks with.
I would prefer EMP getting the 62.5% range from PP, PP getting the 75% from Fusion, and Fusion getting 48 total damage with emphasis on Exp, and the 50% range from EMP. This would put the ammos in line with other races, and it would also be in line with Exp being the Minmatar/Angel main damage type. But I think this makes way too much sense to ever be considered.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Gavin Darklighter
The Burning Orphans Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.07.16 21:02:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar I would prefer EMP getting the 62.5% range from PP, PP getting the 75% from Fusion, and Fusion getting 48 total damage with emphasis on Exp, and the 50% range from EMP. This would put the ammos in line with other races, and it would also be in line with Exp being the Minmatar/Angel main damage type. But I think this makes way too much sense to ever be considered.
That works too.
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Litus Arowar
Amarr Obsidian Asylum Pure.
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Posted - 2007.07.16 21:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar I would prefer EMP getting the 62.5% range from PP, PP getting the 75% from Fusion, and Fusion getting 48 total damage with emphasis on Exp, and the 50% range from EMP. This would put the ammos in line with other races, and it would also be in line with Exp being the Minmatar/Angel main damage type. But I think this makes way too much sense to ever be considered.
that sounds reasonable
however, as far as the OP, I disagree that it's a myth, it's just not as big as some people make it seem... this change proposed by leandro seems pretty reasonable, though I'm not sure how much/wether it would affect autocannon users...
still, it would be in line with the racial damage of minmatar, and as such I support it
oh and as far as projectiles are concerned, I just want to say that they're one of the most attractive weapon types in game... good for short range, good for long range, capless, and multiple damage types... I just wanna make sure no one misunderstands me, so I'll say it another way: while not the BEST at any category (other than the variety of damage types, cap immunity, etc) I think they're great weapons overall don't feed the trolls |
Gaius Sejanus
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.07.16 21:53:00 -
[17]
Quote: It is even worse, you forgot to mention that the 'good' T1 ammo types (Fusion and PP) only deal 10 total damage while Laser and Hybrid good ammo deals 12...
And neither Fusion nor Phased Plasma inflicts a 50% range penalty, nor do they have the highest capacitor use. Please to cease comparing dissimilar things.
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Mortuus
Minmatar Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.17 03:58:00 -
[18]
It really depends on what you are doing. I suit my ammo to the NPCrs resists. So in the north vs Guristas, its EMP all the way. EM kills the shield, EXP tears the armor.
Down south I used Plasma for the same reason. I try to carry EMP (good all around, good vs Gallente/Caldari t2), Plasma (to deal with pesky Amarr t2) and Barrage (avoiding webs, shooting t2 Minmatar.
No we can't adjust a damage type to just purely one kind, but we can still pick which resist holes we attack. And that can add a ton of DPS if done right.
I would say our advantages on our guns are: -Choice of Resist holes -No Cap -Great Falloff -Low Fitting
If you use them right, they work really well.
ex-Occassus Republica <3 |
Arii Smith
Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.07.17 04:25:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Mortuus It really depends on what you are doing. I suit my ammo to the NPCrs resists. So in the north vs Guristas, its EMP all the way. EM kills the shield, EXP tears the armor.
Down south I used Plasma for the same reason. I try to carry EMP (good all around, good vs Gallente/Caldari t2), Plasma (to deal with pesky Amarr t2) and Barrage (avoiding webs, shooting t2 Minmatar.
No we can't adjust a damage type to just purely one kind, but we can still pick which resist holes we attack. And that can add a ton of DPS if done right.
I would say our advantages on our guns are: -Choice of Resist holes -No Cap -Great Falloff -Low Fitting
If you use them right, they work really well.
You know Kinetic does about twice as much as EM to Guristas right?
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.07.17 04:44:00 -
[20]
I guess its like the myth about choosing damage types for caldari...
It looks shiny but it works only against npc... You dont know which enemy you face in the next fight.. so you cant choose the right missiles. If you try to change ammo in fight you loose at least 10 seconds of damage, which will hardly be worth it... and if you wait until you have to reload... well then its already over most of the time.
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Richard Masterson
Generals Of Destruction Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.17 05:28:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Arii Smith You know Kinetic does about twice as much as EM to Guristas right?
Mortuus doesn't actually shoot the NPCs, he just glares at them and they explode.
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Sheriff Justice
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.17 06:35:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Arii Smith
Originally by: Mortuus It really depends on what you are doing. I suit my ammo to the NPCrs resists. So in the north vs Guristas, its EMP all the way. EM kills the shield, EXP tears the armor.
Down south I used Plasma for the same reason. I try to carry EMP (good all around, good vs Gallente/Caldari t2), Plasma (to deal with pesky Amarr t2) and Barrage (avoiding webs, shooting t2 Minmatar.
No we can't adjust a damage type to just purely one kind, but we can still pick which resist holes we attack. And that can add a ton of DPS if done right.
I would say our advantages on our guns are: -Choice of Resist holes -No Cap -Great Falloff -Low Fitting
If you use them right, they work really well.
You know Kinetic does about twice as much as EM to Guristas right?
He hunts npcers not npcs.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.07.17 09:01:00 -
[23]
The only real issue I have with projectile ammo and its not so much about damage types, is that for autocannon users you need to fit t2 ac's + hail to fight effectively in falloff. Now hail gives +50% falloff, so would it be unreasonable for ccp to give us a t1 ammunition that has +25% falloff?
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Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.07.17 09:15:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nian Banks The only real issue I have with projectile ammo and its not so much about damage types, is that for autocannon users you need to fit t2 ac's + hail to fight effectively in falloff. Now hail gives +50% falloff, so would it be unreasonable for ccp to give us a t1 ammunition that has +25% falloff?
Think you mean barrage, hail has a a falloff penalty, not bonus. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.07.17 10:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Nian Banks The only real issue I have with projectile ammo and its not so much about damage types, is that for autocannon users you need to fit t2 ac's + hail to fight effectively in falloff. Now hail gives +50% falloff, so would it be unreasonable for ccp to give us a t1 ammunition that has +25% falloff?
Think you mean barrage, hail has a a falloff penalty, not bonus.
Ya your right there, but still valid point isn't it? why isn't there a t1 version with a lesser bonus to falloff?
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.17 10:39:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman I guess its like the myth about choosing damage types for caldari...
It looks shiny but it works only against npc... You dont know which enemy you face in the next fight.. so you cant choose the right missiles. If you try to change ammo in fight you loose at least 10 seconds of damage, which will hardly be worth it... and if you wait until you have to reload... well then its already over most of the time.
no no.
For example. When you are fighting an absolution. You are nuts if you don 't stop 10 secodns to change to Thermal damage. If you are fighting an EOS, you are nuts if using Kinetic etc...
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.07.17 11:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nian Banks
Ya your right there, but still valid point isn't it? why isn't there a t1 version with a lesser bonus to falloff?
Well, yeees. However, it does sortof go against all the T1 ammo types having *optimal* penalities/bonuses.
Furthermore, take into account that: (a) long range ammo (optimal) has less damage (b) short range ammo (optimal) has more damage
If it were changed to: (a) -||- (b) short range ammo (optimal) has more damage and more falloff
It'd be a across the board short-range gun boost. Which *might* be a good thing, but I'm not sure. It would signifincantly reduce the range advantage of long range ammo for long-range guns which have a decent falloff (like, artillery), rendering long-range ammo a bit less useful for most purposes even on long-range guns. I don't know how good would that be.
However, the effect of across the board change to short range ammo would be that it's easier to get your guns to hit out of webrange with high-damage T1 ammo. What's a good thing.
Anyway, you're daft if you don't reload your guns when you're facing someone with a 80% resist to the damage you're doing, especially when there's two well-tanked BCs fighting it out. If reloading will make the difference between not doing enough DPS to break someone's tank and doing enough DPS... then you reload. If that 10s will make a big dent in your tank, well, you were probably going to die anyway
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Msobe
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Posted - 2007.07.17 13:58:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Nian Banks Anyway, you're not using projectiles if you don't reload your guns when you're facing someone with a 80% resist to the damage you're doing, especially when there's two well-tanked BCs fighting it out. If reloading will make the difference between not doing enough DPS to break someone's tank and doing enough DPS... then you reload. If that 10s will make a big dent in your tank, well, you were probably going to die anyway
Better now. ;-)
On the original topic - of course projectiles switching damage isn't as easy as with missiles . . . each damage option is tied to a range. And you still have the same issues as any other turret has, and its not as if you have 4 types of ammo for 4 different damage types.
Its also not meaningless. If you go up against an amarr HAC with 80% base explosive resists (easily 90% or higher when tanked), you aren't stuck doing explosive no matter what.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.07.17 16:55:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Msobe
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Nian Banks Anyway, you're not using projectiles if you don't reload your guns when you're facing someone with a 80% resist to the damage you're doing, especially when there's two well-tanked BCs fighting it out. If reloading will make the difference between not doing enough DPS to break someone's tank and doing enough DPS... then you reload. If that 10s will make a big dent in your tank, well, you were probably going to die anyway
Better now. ;-)
On the original topic - of course projectiles switching damage isn't as easy as with missiles . . . each damage option is tied to a range. And you still have the same issues as any other turret has, and its not as if you have 4 types of ammo for 4 different damage types.
Its also not meaningless. If you go up against an amarr HAC with 80% base explosive resists (easily 90% or higher when tanked), you aren't stuck doing explosive no matter what.
The other issue is, given the reload time, are you really benefiting yourself when changing to a more appropriate ammo?
If there was a skill to reduce reload time that would be good.
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Incantare
Caldari Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.17 19:31:00 -
[30]
There's already rigs for that, and they're not stacking nerfed. On top of that they're relatively cheap so... fit rigs.
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