Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 14:43:00 -
[1]
The whole "point" why MWDs were disabled in deadspaces in the fist place is more or less absolete right now.
For those that DON'T remember a time when MWDs worked inside deadspaces, it might be even hard to imagine a GAMEPLAY reason (not a roleplay reason) why that was needed, back then. A small reminder. You could (back then) bypass the need to have the gates unlocked by simply FLYING the 10,000km to the grid the acceleration gate usually sends you towards, because MWD speed of souped-up ships was quite extreme... nowadays, with the "speed nerf", it's no longer really an issue. Besides, the main point was with DED complexes rather than regular missions, now with a vast majority of complexes being switched over to exploration, that's hardly ever a problem either.
So, in conclusion, RE-ENABLE MWDs IN DEADSPACES.
For those that don't know what that means (because they got too used to flying Ravens) or what it might mean... let's jut put it this way, Ravens and Domis will no longer make up the VAST majority of mission-running ships. __
All in favor of the proposal, say "STFU", "lol n00b", "/signed" or something similar. All against, explain why you're against it, with carefully constructed and well thought-of counter-arguments.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Nun Izon
Gallente
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 14:45:00 -
[2]
/signed.
|
Sharupak
Minmatar Knights Of the Black Sun
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 14:47:00 -
[3]
Fine by me either way.
To be devils advocate, it does make mission running a touch harder. But it certainly takes a long time to loot wrecks in an ab battleship LOL. _______________________________________________ RuntimeError: ChainEvent is blocking by design, but you're block trapped. You have'll have to find some alternative means to do Your Thing, dude. |
Bjusterbaarlik
Caldari Airborne Assassins Pax Familia
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 14:52:00 -
[4]
/signed.
|
Adonis 4174
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:00:00 -
[5]
Undecided for a whole other reason.
In lowsec missions, staying a good 30km from the beacon gives you a good chance of survival when someone probes you out and appears at the beacon. This is largely because, unless they bring a specialist tackler along with them, they can't get close enough to scram you before you can, well, scram.
Allowing pc pirates to use mwds in your deadspace mission changes the balance of this aspect of pvp and gives me doubts. I'll think it through more when I have time to. ----- Currently playing: Hello Kitty Online Character: Evil Kitty of DEATH |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:09:00 -
[6]
AFAIK the reason for not allowing MWDs is because you could speed/rangetank the NPCs too easily.
|
Dred 'Morte
Winds of Dawn
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:15:00 -
[7]
And that should be a viable tactic, specially when ATM only two ships can do lvl 4s easily: Raven and Dominix. With MWD, more battleships would be able to easily do lvl 4s. I don't see any imbalance in that.
Signature made by Mr Floppykickners |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:19:00 -
[8]
Exept that you can do it not only in lvl 4s.
Using a t1 frig with a MWD to tank 10/10s or lvl5s would be slightly broken.
|
Mnenareth
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:27:00 -
[9]
crow + overdrives + gistii + orbit @ 100km = LOLZ AFK TANK while the rest of the gang easily destroys the mission spawn. And that's just after 10 seconds of thought.
|
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:30:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Tarminic on 18/07/2007 15:30:01
Originally by: Dred 'Morte And that should be a viable tactic, specially when ATM only two ships can do lvl 4s easily: Raven and Dominix. With MWD, more battleships would be able to easily do lvl 4s. I don't see any imbalance in that.
Er...you can do level 4 missions in almost any battleship. Personally I use a Maelstrom/Domi combo with a buddy of mine, but they're doable in a Rokh, Scorpion, Typhoon, and plenty of others. ------------ ULTIMATE LAG SOLUTION IBTL! IBDS/DC! IBTC! 1st in a BoB post! And other such forum tom-foolery. |
|
DJ P
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:32:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T The whole "point" why MWDs were disabled in deadspaces in the fist place is more or less absolete right now.
For those that DON'T remember a time when MWDs worked inside deadspaces, it might be even hard to imagine a GAMEPLAY reason (not a roleplay reason) why that was needed, back then.
When we were able to do it???
When deadspace was put into EVE we weren't allowed to use MWD.
|
Haradgrim
Caldari The Wild Bunch KA0S Theory
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Akita T For those that don't know what that means (because they got too used to flying Ravens) or what it might mean... let's jut put it this way, Ravens and Domis will no longer make up the VAST majority of mission-running ships.
Because Ravens and Rohks wouldn't be completely invulnerable due to range tank....... - Haradgrim [-WB-]
That.which.does.not.bend.breaks |
J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:51:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Mnenareth crow + overdrives + gistii + orbit @ 100km = LOLZ AFK TANK while the rest of the gang easily destroys the mission spawn. And that's just after 10 seconds of thought.
Yeah, true. Of course, they could always update the NPC AI...HAHAHAHA. *ahem*
|
Vasiliyan
Federation Fleet Endless Horizon
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Aramendel Exept that you can do it not only in lvl 4s.
Using a t1 frig with a MWD to tank 10/10s or lvl5s would be slightly broken.
I've read quite a few posts describing the use of fast T2 frigates to tank high-level exploration content. Or sending in a wave of alts in shuttles to attract the attention of neut towers and lure away the initial aggro / take the alpha strike for the team.
|
RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Veto. Veto Corp
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:54:00 -
[15]
I would love to see it happen
At the same time I will oppose the idea for now. The mission runners will go absolutely bananas if busted missions allowed MWD-fitted inty's in. A good inty pilot can close up to 100KM faster than your average BS can align and warp.
I'm only opposing this to keep the whine bandwidth to the current levels
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
|
Haradgrim
Caldari The Wild Bunch KA0S Theory
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 15:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Originally by: Mnenareth crow + overdrives + gistii + orbit @ 100km = LOLZ AFK TANK while the rest of the gang easily destroys the mission spawn. And that's just after 10 seconds of thought.
Yeah, true. Of course, they could always update the NPC AI...HAHAHAHA. *ahem*
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH ...... ....... PHEW ... ..... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA - Haradgrim [-WB-]
That.which.does.not.bend.breaks |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 17:06:00 -
[17]
Of course, they could also just buff NPC typical damage/tank/range in line with similar PLAYER ships, and heavily reduce the number of NPCs per deadspace pocket to one, two BSs tops, a BC or two in case there's only one BS, a couple of cruisers and a handfull of frigates, a destroyer or two.
Wether you tanke them via range, via insane shield recharge or whatnot... does it really, REALLY matter ? In the end, same issue, how lon a mission takes, nothing more, nothing less, any missionrunner worth a damn won't be in trouble from NPCs unless lagged to hell.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 17:36:00 -
[18]
note to self, clicking akita's threads results in brain damage, refrain Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
SiJira
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 17:42:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme note to self, clicking akita's threads results in brain damage, refrain
can you really get any more ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore
miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 17:43:00 -
[20]
Originally by: SiJira
Originally by: Tortun Nahme note to self, clicking akita's threads results in brain damage, refrain
can you really get any more
nice volley
but point that thing someplace else Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink.
Nerfageddon |
|
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 18:06:00 -
[21]
/signed -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 21:47:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Akita T Wether you tanke them via range, via insane shield recharge or whatnot... does it really, REALLY matter ?
Yes.
Shield and armortanks have finite amounts of damage they can tank. You have a certain maximum and if you go over that you go boom. This makes especially high end content (lvl 5s, 8/10 plexes or higher) tricky since in most cases a single ship simply cannot tank a whole pocket without assistance. So you need some teamwork.
Range & speedtanks have the potential to tank infinite amounts of damage however. They do not work by the principle of damage reduction, they work by avoiding damage. If you can do that vs 1 ship you can do that vs 100.
|
Moon Kitten
Gallente GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 21:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Akita T Wether you tanke them via range, via insane shield recharge or whatnot... does it really, REALLY matter ?
Yes.
Shield and armortanks have finite amounts of damage they can tank. You have a certain maximum and if you go over that you go boom. This makes especially high end content (lvl 5s, 8/10 plexes or higher) tricky since in most cases a single ship simply cannot tank a whole pocket without assistance. So you need some teamwork.
Range & speedtanks have the potential to tank infinite amounts of damage however. They do not work by the principle of damage reduction, they work by avoiding damage. If you can do that vs 1 ship you can do that vs 100.
I disagree with your statement.
|
Derovius Vaden
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 22:14:00 -
[24]
The question becomes, what good would afterburners be if everyone and their sister is strapped to MWD's? Will they be the next neuts?
|
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 22:24:00 -
[25]
Without other changes, essentially it's a huge buff primarily to HiSec mission running, throwing those rewards further out of whack with LoSec, so no.
Now what I -would- personally like to see is MWDs functioning in deadspace as equivalent ABs. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Adonis 4174
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 22:50:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Now what I -would- personally like to see is MWDs functioning in deadspace as equivalent ABs.
/signed ----- Currently playing: Hello Kitty Online Character: Evil Kitty of DEATH |
Santa Anna
Caldari Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 23:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Now what I -would- personally like to see is MWDs functioning in deadspace as equivalent ABs.
/signed
No. If I set up a ship to hunt someone down in a deadspace your buddies should have to refit or be at a disadvantage when they come to your aid. Having deadspace pvp be different from non-deadspace PVP is a good thing. Making it all the same would be boring. _____ Heat Warfare |
Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 23:35:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Mnenareth crow + overdrives + gistii + orbit @ 100km = LOLZ AFK TANK while the rest of the gang easily destroys the mission spawn. And that's just after 10 seconds of thought.
works even better with an gistii AB -.- -
|
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
|
Posted - 2007.07.18 23:43:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Now what I -would- personally like to see is MWDs functioning in deadspace as equivalent ABs.
/signed
No. If I set up a ship to hunt someone down in a deadspace your buddies should have to refit or be at a disadvantage when they come to your aid. Having deadspace pvp be different from non-deadspace PVP is a good thing. Making it all the same would be boring.
That's a good point, at least in the abstract. Deadspaces PvP would still be different though because of the "speed limit". The fact is, you'd have the option for optimizing your setup for AB fitting (and your tactics for AB use) whereas the theoretical friends coming to help your target wouldn't have that advantage if they're currently in a ship running MWDs.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Santa Anna
Caldari Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 00:52:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
Originally by: Santa Anna
Originally by: Adonis 4174
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Now what I -would- personally like to see is MWDs functioning in deadspace as equivalent ABs.
/signed
No. If I set up a ship to hunt someone down in a deadspace your buddies should have to refit or be at a disadvantage when they come to your aid. Having deadspace pvp be different from non-deadspace PVP is a good thing. Making it all the same would be boring.
That's a good point, at least in the abstract. Deadspaces PvP would still be different though because of the "speed limit". The fact is, you'd have the option for optimizing your setup for AB fitting (and your tactics for AB use) whereas the theoretical friends coming to help your target wouldn't have that advantage if they're currently in a ship running MWDs.
The MWD penalty isn't nearly big enough to make that trade-off work. One of the penalties of fitting a MWD is that it doesn't work in deadspace. If that penalty didn't exist no one would buy AB's (well, maybe 3-4 ships would use them). People who plan ahead should be rewarded.
If you want to salvage missions faster, don't use your 110 m/s battleship. _____ Heat Warfare |
|
Stakhanov
kleptomaniacs
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 01:38:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
The question becomes, what good would afterburners be if everyone and their sister is strapped to MWD's? Will they be the next neuts?
My thoughts exactly (shockingly enough )
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Without other changes, essentially it's a huge buff primarily to HiSec mission running, throwing those rewards further out of whack with LoSec, so no.
Quoted for emphasis , it made me think and now I'm against the OP's suggestion... I just got me a shiny lachesis
|
Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 02:27:00 -
[32]
Enabling MWD in deadspace sounds like a good idea, right now it skews the balance even more toward missle spewing ravens, since they dont have to be really far out to track or on top of something to hit it. BTW, anyone who thinks deadspace MWD would nerf AB has never tried using MWD on a cruiser or BS _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
|
Yougot Fubarred
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 02:54:00 -
[33]
lol I want this just for my salvager ship... itd make it much easier to run 3 lvl 3 mishes AND get the bounties lol ************************************ I named this guy WAAAAAAY too well Prophecy FTL |
Zosimos Sabina
Tritanium Workers Union Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 03:58:00 -
[34]
Enabling microwarpdrives in deadspace is just like attaching a band-aid to a gaping wound.
Real problem is that the PVE AI is (1) very lacking and (2) the way missions are set up - horde of weak ships.
Now how does this break turret ships?
They spend way too much time getting into optimal and making sure transversal is close to 0 compared to time actually shooting things.
The PVE balance will resolve itself once they make PVE encounters more like PVP, that is, low numbers of durable, high damage ships that can be ewared etc.
With the new level 5+ missions I would seriously encourage CCP to consider making PVE as close to PVP as you can get - requiring scramblers and mixed tanks. This means that should an opposing gang warp into your low-sec deadspace you will not be quite so gimped. Also, it brings the various tacklers like interdictors and interceptors into the game. Right now average PVE is dead boring - make fat tank in fitting screen and go to town spamming missles.
SO in short I am against this change, but I do agree missions need to be made less dumb. The ai needs to be souped up and mechanics changed. It makes no sense to me why my 1 battleship can take out 50 in an extraganza. You would've though the Angel's could buy a freaking Caldari ECM and learn how to NOS by now.
------------------------------------------------ »\(¦_o)/» |
Krulla
Minmatar Applied Eugenics
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 05:21:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Krulla on 19/07/2007 05:21:15
Originally by: Dred 'Morte And that should be a viable tactic, specially when ATM only two ships can do lvl 4s easily: Raven and Dominix. With MWD, more battleships would be able to easily do lvl 4s. I don't see any imbalance in that.
I solo level 4s half-afk in a t2 fitted hyperion.. and a friend of mine in a maelstrom does the same...
|
Manuela Asante
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 06:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Akita T
Wether you tanke them via range, via insane shield recharge or whatnot... does it really, REALLY matter ? In the end, same issue, how long a mission takes, nothing more, nothing less, any missionrunner worth a damn won't be in trouble from NPCs unless lagged to hell.
That is the key point "how long a mission takes". The 100 km between gates and so on aren't there casually, they are there to slow the pace at wich the mission can be done, so to that even the best pilot, with the best equipement, need at leasta minimum time to complete a mission.
"Need of speed" is against the lag, not "speed in missions".
|
Chainsaw Plankton
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 09:12:00 -
[37]
most missions have warp ins these days. i think that would cut down on the one speed tank ship afk tanking the whole mission.
that and just because npcs get to break the rules they can have a 99% web with 5000km range that only attacks things going 4km/s+ :-"
|
jilahed
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 10:35:00 -
[38]
Yes. Plz.
|
000Hunter000
Gallente Magners Marauders
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 11:23:00 -
[39]
err... no?
sure i know it would be nice to mwd around, but someone would just take an inty(read fast ship) agro the entire room and mwd safely out of range of everything letting someone else whack the entire stage.
CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
|
Lucy Light
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 12:38:00 -
[40]
/signed
we could use mwd to get in range. this will mean that amar ships will be almost able to do some deadspaces.. well a bit faster anyway
Lucy, under the street Light
- Everytime you shoot me, CCP kills a carebear. - Could somebody please think of the carebears? |
|
velocity7
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 14:07:00 -
[41]
/signed
|
Caios
Caldari Unified Refining Federation Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 15:59:00 -
[42]
Contrary to popular belief, not being able to fire in deadspace isn't a tradeoff to "balance" mwds. As the OP states, it was more of a quick fix to prevent small ships with MWDs to speedrun deadspace complexes when they first came out. Seeing as there are other ways to deal with that tactic now, there really is no point to keep this restriction any longer.
might make PvE more interesting, so signed. ingame rationale could cite revolutionary new advances in understanding warp drive mechanics that allows for existing units to be easily recalibrated to operate within deadspace pockets, or something like that.
|
Radamathadus
|
Posted - 2007.07.19 16:04:00 -
[43]
Quote: For those that DON'T remember a time when MWDs worked inside deadspaces, it might be even hard to imagine a GAMEPLAY reason (not a roleplay reason) why that was needed, back then.
Mission deadspace has always been MWD free and was made such to curtail the common MWD kiting tactics that gun boats used back in late 2004.
Gunboats have and remain used but are very unforgiving to those with low skill points. Amarr suffer particularly when shooting angels but are effective none the less when flown by those with many skill points.
The Raven was the king of the missions when Deadspace was introduced as its torps hit everytime and 1 or 2 torps would kill a frig or inty. It remains the ship of choice today as it takes significantly fewer skill points to fly and tank effectively and its cruise or torps still hit 100% but it requires more missiles to kill the small ships.
Efforts to balance the missile vrs turret skillpoint issue where made with the introduction of extra missile skills - they argueably didnt go far enough.
While the speednerf has had an effect on the extreme speeds some bs were able to achieve in regards to pvp it has little bearing on the the speeds needed to outpace mission and other deadspace npc's. If turret bs are able to easily outpace those npc's with the simple addition of an MWD there would simply be a return to turret kiting.
The turret battleships can still kill the small ships with a few hits (tempests can still do wrecking hits in excess of 2000) and this introduction would be a negative step backwards. The kiting effect is still easy to achieve with AB and speed mods but at the cost of a tank so some small risk exists.
/Denied |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |