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DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:07:00 - [1] Edited by: DubanFP on 22/07/2007 13:12:09 The enviroment in EVE is somewhat interesting in that there are 2 main forever competing groups of people in EVE. Group A. Is constantly evolving their tactics and knowledge of game physics, constantlly adapting to the changing EVE enviroment and looking for every little game mechanic, every new fitting that could give them the Edge. These are the people who Adapt to EVE for maximum sucess. --Then there is-- Group B. Those who fail to adapt and think that EVE should be the one to serve their own private needs, all the time, EVERY time. Rather then be for all. First Group A. finds a new, better way to play the game sucessfully. Group B. rather then adapting to EVE, claims that the new adaptation is "unfair". As a result Group A. is busy playing unaware that Group B. is whining, group B. claims the "majority" card while in reality group A. just isn't around. This leaves the smart adapters at the disadvantage because those who fail to adapt selfishly call for the game mechanics to change to suit themselves rather then going out to find sucess. This continuous dumbing down of the game to support those who fail to adapt is quite Reverse Darwinistic. Those who adapt are the ones constantly struggling, while those who fail are relatively stable. ______________________ DubanFP> I stopped capitalizing the g in goonswarm a little while back. I find they no longer deserved the little bit of extra effort required to press the shift key.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:09:00 - [2] Edited by: Splagada on 22/07/2007 13:10:05 Edited by: Splagada on 22/07/2007 13:08:54 dont make bob threads like this!!! too many letters to understand you're on eve-o, just go for blunt insults and random crap, please! edit : jk, interesting point of view even is slightly biased :p ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:10:00 - [3] The entire point of the PVP game is to cause havoc and escape without loss/consequence. This thread is the ultimate example of what i'm talking about in that a group of people find something that does EXACTLY as the point of the game, yet in a different way. Now group B. Seeks to get it nerfed. ______________________ DubanFP> I stopped capitalizing the g in goonswarm a little while back. I find they no longer deserved the little bit of extra effort required to press the shift key.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:18:00 - [4] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 22/07/2007 13:22:03 Im in both group A and group B, depending on the situation. Sometimes I dont want to adapt because I dont see the good in the change. Sometimes I adapt because I realize its a good change for the game. Everybody CAN adapt. Question is: do they want to? Its a major difference to true darwanism, where all species actually tried to adapt to the changing environment but some failed and died. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Del Narveux Dukes of Hazard	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:35:00 - [5] Jim McG wins this thread. Just because someting changes doesnt mean people should have to deal with it, this is after all a game thats supposed to be played to have fun not show off how good you are when the deck is stacked against you. I mean, they could make it so everyone has to fly an ibis with basic miners, but what would be the usefulness or fun in that? That said I do agree that people whine a lot on the forums, but it tends to be more about the age old problem where those who already hold an unfair advantage are whining cause they might lose it. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base? Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
Ollijave	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:36:00 - [6] May be group B is just those who think eve is only a game and don't play several hours each day, so they don't have time for: Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 22/07/2007 13:12:09 constantly evolving their tactics and knowledge of game physics, constantlly adapting to the changing EVE enviroment and looking for every little game mechanic, every new fitting that could give them the Edge Eve-online is a very hard game if you don't have a lot to time to spend on it and a huge part of his contents can't be explore by casual player may be some want to change that.
heheheh Singularity. Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:38:00 - [7] Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 22/07/2007 13:10:05 Edited by: Splagada on 22/07/2007 13:08:54 dont make bob threads like this!!! too many letters to understand you're on eve-o, just go for blunt insults and random crap, please He does anyway, over and over again.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.07.22 13:40:00 - [8] Edited by: DubanFP on 22/07/2007 13:43:42 Originally by: heheheh Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 22/07/2007 13:10:05 Edited by: Splagada on 22/07/2007 13:08:54 dont make bob threads like this!!! too many letters to understand you're on eve-o, just go for blunt insults and random crap, please He does anyway, over and over again. Better then makeing 1 sentence posts that don't really add anything over and over again. Like "He does anyway, over and over again.". I'm sorry if deep rational thought offends you . Anyways, EVE has always been a game that rewards those who adapt. Why should that change because of those who complain because they can't adapt? ______________________ DubanFP> I stopped capitalizing the g in goonswarm a little while back. I find they no longer deserved the little bit of extra effort required to press the shift key.
Tolomea Gallente 5th Front enterprises New Eve Order	Posted - 2007.07.22 14:22:00 - [9] Edited by: Tolomea on 22/07/2007 14:32:30 Originally by: DubanFP The entire point of the PVP game is to cause havoc and escape without loss/consequence. This thread is the ultimate example of what i'm talking about in that a group of people find something that does EXACTLY as the point of the game, yet in a different way. Now group B. Seeks to get it nerfed. Wait a sec, does that mean you support docking as a valid combat tactic? Cause I'm getting a sudden flashback to all that hypocritical privateer whining about how its was wrong that people could steal their wrecks, but A-OK for them to run their empire griefing machine. Incidentally I agree with your point about not letting the whiners get their way in much the same way that I agreed with privateers that the wreck ownership mechanics were somewhat bizzare, however their war dec games were still griefing and docking is not a valid combat tactic.
SiJira	Posted - 2007.07.22 14:45:00 - [10] Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 22/07/2007 13:12:09 The enviroment in EVE is somewhat interesting in that there are 2 main forever competing groups of people in EVE. Group A. Is constantly evolving their tactics and knowledge of game physics, constantlly adapting to the changing EVE enviroment and looking for every little game mechanic, every new fitting that could give them the Edge. These are the people who Adapt to EVE for maximum sucess. --Then there is-- Group B. Those who fail to adapt and think that EVE should be the one to serve their own private needs, all the time, EVERY time. Rather then be for all. First Group A. finds a new, better way to play the game sucessfully. Group B. rather then adapting to EVE, claims that the new adaptation is "unfair". As a result Group A. is busy playing unaware that Group B. is whining, group B. claims the "majority" card while in reality group A. just isn't around. This leaves the smart adapters at the disadvantage because those who fail to adapt selfishly call for the game mechanics to change to suit themselves rather then going out to find sucess. This continuous dumbing down of the game to support those who fail to adapt is quite Reverse Darwinistic. Those who adapt are the ones constantly struggling, while those who fail are relatively stable. a+ post now to copy paste it in local every time you pod someone would be great ____ __ ________ _sig below_ the jet cans are made so that people that dont mine can get free ore miners ritually donate the ore to anyone wishing to take some
Kakalot Supernova Security Systems	Posted - 2007.07.22 15:12:00 - [11] i'd like to make it short. you're just trying to escalate the whole thing about whiners and elite pvp people. You know why? Cause you read eve-o too much. Don't you realize most of the posts these days are so stupid and wasting people's time. Gotta give the mods team a praise. They read them all For a game like EVE, because it has so many aspects it is a tough job to try to balance the game play and game mechanics. Devs have been doing a good job but it's never enough. But since it's your opinion so i guess it's ok. ________________________________________________________ http://users.pandora.be/zebras/Kakalot.jpg
R3dSh1ft Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.22 15:25:00 - [12] Hmm, the game changed by adding 50% extra hp and adding damage control units (and also nerfing extreme damage by penalising multiple damage units). So now ships have effectively twice the hitpoints, and somewhat less firepower - yet the redock/jump after aggression timer is still only 1 minute. Which part of the word 'Balance' do you not understand DKOD - an awesome synchronised killing machine
Ephemeron Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.22 16:33:00 - [13] You are trying to make the case that people in Group A, those who adapt well to current state of the game, have no interest in trying to modify the game. This is completely wrong. Both groups are equally interested in making the game evolve in some direction. People who like to adapt and find new things WANT game mechanics to change so they could find new ways to adapt, new tactics to try out. But which group is winning this tug of war? hard to say, CCP made changes in both directions. Personally, I'm really hoping for a local nerf
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.07.22 16:42:00 - [14] Edited by: DubanFP on 22/07/2007 16:41:54 Originally by: Ephemeron You are trying to make the case that people in Group A, those who adapt well to current state of the game, have no interest in trying to modify the game. This is completely wrong. Both groups are equally interested in making the game evolve in some direction. People who like to adapt and find new things WANT game mechanics to change so they could find new ways to adapt, new tactics to try out. But which group is winning this tug of war? hard to say, CCP made changes in both directions. Personally, I'm really hoping for a local nerf Honestly this thread has been a bit misinterpereted. Everyone doesn't nessisarily belong to either of the 2 groups, but they do tend to control the power of EVE. Also just because you can't adapt doesn't nessisarily put you into group B. Group B.'s defining feature is the fact that they can't accept adaptation AND THEN complain about anyone who discovers an effective use of game mechanics. People in group A. Do have interest in evolving the game, they're just not the ones showing up on a daily basis just to complain. They tend to periodically come by and suggest, though not always good suggestions I have no complaints either way unless they have no clue what they're talking about. Where as the people from Group B. tend to be the ones that come on once per day, every day and do nothing but argue about effective adaptations. ______________________ DubanFP> I stopped capitalizing the g in goonswarm a little while back. I find they no longer deserved the little bit of extra effort required to press the shift key.
Ryum852	Posted - 2007.07.22 17:06:00 - [15] Edited by: Ryum852 on 22/07/2007 17:07:10 the one thing I will say is that in this game, the forum, and other outside of the game resources mean much more than in any other MMO I have played. There seems to be as much dis-information on the boards as real viable info. It's very strange to me, who has played most the other prominent MMOs on the market... strange in a good way. It seems that the people who read the boards, and play go into certain situations (esp for the first time) with more knowledge, but people who just play will overall have feel for how the games mechanics relate to what they are doing. For people who play and have yet to post I wonder if they would agree with a lot of the post I have seen in that NOS, local, and Cloaking (and other issues) either need to be nerfed or changed in some way. I don't pvp yet so I can't say either way. All I know is if I was a dev, I would spend the majority of my time getting feedback from players in the game vs the boards. I would log in and look up someone who is online and has a couple years experience send them a msg asking if they can spend a few minutes chatting bout the game.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.22 17:20:00 - [16] Edited by: d026 on 22/07/2007 17:20:35 Edited by: d026 on 22/07/2007 17:19:21 exploiting the redock timer is just not an advanced strategy. ITS JUST LAME! if we all play this way nobody ever dies.. how fun would that be...
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2007.07.22 18:19:00 - [17] sure, if one could adept to everything... heck i could've adepted to a T2 BPO easily... and, sure, i can use the new map, but the old one was less nerve-wrecking - putting the gist back into logistics
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.07.22 18:24:00 - [18] Originally by: DubanFP First Group A. finds a new, better way to play the game sucessfully. Group B. rather then adapting to EVE, claims that the new adaptation is "unfair". As a result Group A. is busy playing unaware that Group B. is whining, group B. claims the "majority" card while in reality group A. just isn't around. Well, by being to busy playing the game and not responding to Group B's attack then Group A are, perhaps, actually being the victims of Darwinism. Group A needs to adapt to the tactics of Group B or die out. Actually I think it is cause CCP want more subscribers and so have to cater for thicker, more whiney players. Cause, lets face it, to CCP a stupid rich person > clever poor person.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.22 18:39:00 - [19] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 22/07/2007 17:24:59 exploiting the redock timer is just not an advanced strategy. ITS JUST LAME! if we all play this way nobody ever dies.. how fun would that be... Typical example of Type "B". Easiest way to deal with those players? Nano-phoon sitting 20k away to knock them away from the dock. Oh wait, the "I can't kill it because I don't want to adapt" people that got that nerfed too. And in your thread there was the complaint that someone could undock, *POP A COUPLE OF THEIR SHIPS*, then redock before being destroyed. I find it funny that they don't bring enough firepower to the table to take care of someone that can obviously kill them then whine that they "get away". It sounds more like undocking, attack, re-dock is a good way to deal with station campers (who are lamer than gate campers). If they "get away", try fighting away from the station. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.07.22 18:43:00 - [20] Originally by: DubanFP ... These are the people who Adapt to EVE for maximum sucess. ... Maybe I am mistaken, but are not those people most 'successful' at Eve who have the most fun? What else could be success? Some imaginary ships? Some bits who has abosolutely no meaning to the world but people think of it as wealth as in isk, territory, ships? That sounds wrong to me, completely wrong. Those who play the game to have fun, they do it right. The more fun, the better. THAT is success.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.07.22 18:44:00 - [21] yeah, i get blowed up all the time and chornically fail to adapt! but I still have a riot doing it Real turtles tank armor. Real men fly Pink. Nerfageddon
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.07.22 18:44:00 - [22] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: DubanFP ... These are the people who Adapt to EVE for maximum sucess. ... Maybe I am mistaken, but are not those people most 'successful' at Eve who have the most fun? What else could be success? Some imaginary ships? Some bits who has abosolutely no meaning to the world but people think of it as wealth as in isk, territory, ships? That sounds wrong to me, completely wrong. Those who play the game to have fun, they do it right. The more fun, the better. THAT is success. true, but at the same time many people measure fun by sucess ______________________ DubanFP> I stopped capitalizing the g in goonswarm a little while back. I find they no longer deserved the little bit of extra effort required to press the shift key.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.07.22 20:55:00 - [23] Edited by: d026 on 22/07/2007 21:03:21 Edited by: d026 on 22/07/2007 21:01:12 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 22/07/2007 17:24:59 exploiting the redock timer is just not an advanced strategy. ITS JUST LAME! if we all play this way nobody ever dies.. how fun would that be... Typical example of Type "B". Easiest way to deal with those players? Nano-phoon sitting 20k away to knock them away from the dock. Oh wait, the "I can't kill it because I don't want to adapt" people that got that nerfed too. And in your thread there was the complaint that someone could undock, *POP A COUPLE OF THEIR SHIPS*, then redock before being destroyed. I find it funny that they don't bring enough firepower to the table to take care of someone that can obviously kill them then whine that they "get away". It sounds more like undocking, attack, re-dock is a good way to deal with station campers (who are lamer than gate campers). If they "get away", try fighting away from the station. dude thats exactely the problem, they undock pewpew redock and never leave the station. and i will never adapt to the circumstance that people play in this cheap way. i will whine till you pod yourself or they change the game mechanics in a way that as soon as you engage in a fight you have to use regular tactics such as mwd, ecm, bumping, webbing to escape the fight again (especially if YOU started it). everything else is just a lame excuse to inflict damage on others with no risk whatsoever which is lame and needs adjusted. no adapting to such tactics needed but game machanic changes.
Mhaerdirne Solveig Minmatar Combustion Industries	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:01:00 - [24] this argument is painful because both sides are obviously smoking dope
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:13:00 - [25] You forgot 2 groups. Group C : the people that find some problems in Eve and game-breaking elements, like, because by adapting they found out it doesn't gives them an edge, but absolute victory with no possible retaliation. These people's thread are constantly being troolled to death by people from group A that want to keep the edge they found over other people (after all they researched it, and does it matter if it's unfair, other just need to adapt), and group B (because the solutions they find don't help them enough, it's isn't making better the particular cookie cutter setup they are using). Group D : The people that think they are in the group C, however, they aren't. They are just clueless idiots. Most people on Eve-O are from the then B, then D, then A, then C. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstra
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.07.22 21:38:00 - [26] Originally by: d026 dude thats exactely the problem, they undock pewpew redock and never leave the station. and i will never adapt to the circumstance that people play in this cheap way. i will whine till you pod yourself or they change the game mechanics in a way that as soon as you engage in a fight you have to use regular tactics such as mwd, ecm, bumping, webbing to escape the fight again (especially if YOU started it). everything else is just a lame excuse to inflict damage on others with no risk whatsoever which is lame and needs adjusted. no adapting to such tactics needed but game machanic changes. So, what you are saying is that those that have enough firepower to undock, blow away a couple of ships, then wait out an agression timer and get re-docked because the station campers didn't have enough firepower to kill them are more lame than camping the station to begin with? Perfect "fix" to your problem: Any gun fire within 20km of a station and the gate guns BBQ you (bump their damage so they can) regardless of war, factional standings, etc. Simply if you ever miss a shot it is considered your shot hit the station and it defends itself. Station camping is lame, especially when your targets can't look out the window and see where your ships are. The station camper holds all the cards, if you STILL can't kill them it isn't a problem with game mechanics. <-----------> Factional Warfare: The LowSec wars which never happened.
cal nereus Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:44:00 - [27] I know a lot of kings who complained when hereditary monarchy was going out of style. Most just couldn't adapt. :-/
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:50:00 - [28] Edited by: Splagada on 23/07/2007 00:50:52 -oops ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Reverend Revelator Elite Storm Enterprises Storm Armada	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:56:00 - [29] I too agree with the OP that EVE Online is an absolutely perfect Godlike perfection of code, and that no changes should ever be made in any way whatsoever ever, for now and forevermore, for any reason. In fact, all of the devs should be fired right now, the forums shut down and all changes that have been made so far be reverted to the very first code iteration of EVE. Oh, and whining about whining is always a classy move. -- Dead People Laugh At The Murder Of Love --
Ryum852	Posted - 2007.07.23 00:57:00 - [30] well I guess I am in Grp F I have no stake in whatever pvp tactics are being used at all because I am still working on sp to even get to a point where I can pvp All I can do is hear what the issue is and give my best judgement of what is right. Or I am in Grp D and don't know it, lol.

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