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GPerson
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:17:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Zaqar No excuse. If you'd even skimmed crime and punishment forum once in the last 3 years you'd know about it.
~~~Sig Stuffs Here~~~ I highly recommend drunken posting. This sig has been unhighjacked since 2005. |
DarkElf
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:20:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Thoran Karlien I think a few people still don't get how this works... As far as I understand it, there are 4 persons. A,B,C all belonging to the same guy/same group of guys and the Victim. A is in war with B, and C is in somekind of NPC Corp, or otherwise non war corp. C invites victim, gang warps to A, and in warp invites B to gang. Now we have got B,C and victim in gang, all flagged for A, because he is in war with B. Victim and C arrive at the safespot of A, A kills victim, victim posts on forums. A never enters gang, doen't need to. Easy as that. What get people riddled is, that as a victim you don't get much information that someone can shoot you now.
Everyone understands exactly how it works. Next time someone invites you to a gang read the message that it gives you.
If anyone thinks about the gang mechanics for a few minutes then they could figure out that it's possible to do that. Anyone who falls for this scam do so because they haven't thought through the possiblities before entering gang.
DE
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hUssmann
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:38:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Miika Finsa
because I was naive and trusting /shrug.
Originally by: CCP in description of EVE Trust no-one.
It's your fault, and to be honest I won't flame but I'll say this.
WHY CREATE ANOTHER ******* THREAD WHEN WE'VE GOT MORE THAN THE SIXTY BILLION UNDOCKING FROM JITA 4-4.
Ginger Magician > You are merely an effective ganker of haulers who runs at the first sign of combat. |
jimmyjam
Turbulent
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:51:00 -
[34]
Dont join other peoples gangs simple as that.
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Viofix
Botch and Freemp Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:00:00 -
[35]
The only part I'm interested in knowing is what the duration of the hidden flag is after you join a gang with a war target. I presume 15 minutes?
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IgnorantBliss
Gallente Friendly Hostility
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Viofix The only part I'm interested in knowing is what the duration of the hidden flag is after you join a gang with a war target. I presume 15 minutes?
It's been my experience that it's not the same as an aggression timer. Unless some form of aggression takes place, you have no "flag". As soon as you drop gang, you are no longer a valid war target. Either this person ran into a spat of lag, or just didn't drop gang fast enough.
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:59:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Miika Finsa I'm not bound to read every post especially on this board as mostly it's all flame this and flame that.
Of course you're not bound to read anything. You are not bound to read the manual when you buy a new gadget either.
But... Reading the manual sometimes help, and these fora act as the manual to EVE.
Since you have played a year - you must have realized this, and thus you really have no excuse for not knowing about this very old "feature".
- Carebear Pirate - |
Arlen Seek
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.23 22:01:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Mari Onette
Originally by: Miika Finsa
1) when I join a waring group I get a warning. When I invite someone who is at war to my group, I get a warning. I get no warning for something like this.
2) Disbanding doesn't unflag you, and yet at the same time the targets that i'm flagged against, aren't flagged in my overview. How is it that I can be flagged and yet not see who i'm flagged against?
3) I get no messages for when my flag will expire. Am I flagged for 15 minutes? Am I flagged for 24 hours? Who knows, the interface won't tell me.
Some valid points here. it would be nice to have more information available to you regarding war targets in gangs.
However, why are you ganging people you dont know, or giving up boss rights to the gang? Aside from never ganging up with people I don't know, I would never give up boss status if i was in a position where i was bringing strangers into the gang. This is just common sense to me.
If you checked out the fourms in recent weeks you'll see that lofty29 has been up to this trick and posting on a regular basis about it. while i understand you may not be a fourm junky, You took the time to post here, so you should take the time to read it as well. you learn things here, things that can save your ship.
The statment "However, why are you ganging people you dont know, or giving up boss rights to the gang? Aside from never ganging up with people I don't know, I would never give up boss status if i was in a position where i was bringing strangers into the gang. This is just common sense to me." reminds me of the debate about opting out of local. CCP's stance on it was that the game would loose some of the social aspect of the game which is the driving force of not being able to opt out of the local channel.
With that being said, many solo players or players in small corps often group with strangers in High Sec space. The fact that a group of individuals creates and alt corp, goes to war with it, and ganks unsuspecitng players in High Sec is just low. That is exactly what happened to a person I was helping in High Sec one night, I reported it, and got the response from the GM to "Check your gange window". That was it.
Ganging in corps with lagitimate wars is one thing, you get shot for aiding an openents enemy. Using it as an ISK maker is flat out lame. |
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.07.23 22:43:00 -
[39]
It's valid because the GMs think you get a warning.
thus, it's not actually valid, the GMs just don't realize that the warning you're suppose to get, is never given, that there's a flaw in the code.
Or they don't care, but I'd like to think they care, and just don't realize that it's a flaw in the gang mechanics.
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K'reemy G'udness
Delicious
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Posted - 2007.07.23 23:04:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Zaqar
Originally by: Miika Finsa
Originally by: Sandra Jones that is a firbolg, an amarian fighter drone used by carriers.
seriously dude - if you would read the forums you would have known about this.
Ah yes, because when I play a game, I should be expected to read all posts in all of the forums at all times.
No excuse. If you'd even skimmed crime and punishment forum once in the last 2 weeks you'd know about it. Look, the thread is on the front page of the C&P forum right now.
If I see a thread called 'How X scam works', I read it, so I dont get caught by that scam.
There's been threads about this for over a year now, you just chose not to inform yourself.
Eve is the ONLY game I've ever played where you have to read the forums to learn the fine points of the game mechanics, and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82.
CCP is raking in the money hand over fist but can't pay for technical writers to create a comprehensive manual. The only good documentation for this game is written by guys like Joered and Hoshi. And anytime anybody points this out, they get jumped on.
If you get ganked via this crappy warring gang mechanic, or get pulled 20k past a gate onto a bubble, it's your fault because you don't play this game like it's your job and constantly inform yourself by wading through 90% flame fests to find the content.
Why would game mechanics let warring members be in the same gang anyway? That makes no sense except to exploit mechanics.
And of course the GMs don't do anything about it, since it's really the Devs fault for allowing it, and CCP's fault for being too cheap to publish a complete manual that you can either order or download and print yourself.
Shame on CCP for being lazy/cheap and shame on you jerks that jump on somebody for not reading the forums "once in the last 2 weeks". You should be able to play a game casually and not have to study for it like it's an LSAT or something. Sincerely, K'reemy ---
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Elrinarie
Gallente Freelancers Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.23 23:21:00 -
[41]
you tools don't even get the point..
the point is regardless, my interface didn't show hostile targets.
I completely understand now by reading the forum everyone in this game is rude and would crap on your floor in front of you and then yell at you for having crap on your floor.
My point still remain. If it is to be a valid tactic, then fix it so you know what you are facing. Creator of another Mining Calculator |
Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.23 23:26:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Elrinarie you tools don't even get the point..
the point is regardless, my interface didn't show hostile targets.
Er..save an over view setting to show all perhaps. Many times have I agreed to a duel and ganged up, only to realise that I had gang members removed from over view, but it took one click to show them.
Thanks for calling me a tool btw, but at least I haven't fallen for such an obvious trap.
Oh and you say everyone in the game is rude..well yes by calling people tools, you have qualified yourself as a rude member. Well done
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.23 23:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: K'reemy G'udness
Eve is the ONLY game I've ever played where you have to read the forums to learn the fine points of the game mechanics, and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82.
I respect your gaming heritage, (choplifter was awsome btw lol), but part of what makes EVE great is the fact that there is no instruction manual. It's a game of exploration, experience means something here.
You must have loved the feeling of the "unknown" at the start yourself. That is part of the game, a manual would only lessen the experience. When I first saw a POS, I was genuinely amazed
Now I am jaded by the sight of 6 Titans, and fleets of over 500+, but I am still glad there was no manual
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.07.24 00:01:00 -
[44]
The *only* thing I think may be wrong here is that you don't get an aggression timer visible on your screen when you're in gang with someone at war. Even then, read the warnings that you click through.
So what *I'D* like to see is: Join a gang where the person is at war, get an aggression timer (15 minutes) on your screen, refreshed just like you sitting outside a station letting the guns shoot you. Refresh it one more time when they leave the gang.
Maybe I should rejoin the Privateers.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Feilamya
Minmatar Against all Rules SOUL CARTEL
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Posted - 2007.07.24 00:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Miika Finsa someone joined the group mid warp. While I wasn't aware of the whole bait and flag technique I still figured I was somehow flagged by being in the group. So I was hoping leaving the group would unflag me.
Sounds like another exploit to me. Or why shouldn't it be one? Why should it be one? I don't know ...
High sec PVP seems to be complicated. I'd never fly there without a good lawyer ... Whenever I see a thread like this, I'm glad that all I need to know about the law system of EVE is how to tank sentry guns.
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Hellspawn01
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.24 00:22:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Feilamya Sounds like another exploit to me. Or why shouldn't it be one? Why should it be one? I don't know ...
High sec PVP seems to be complicated.
You call this gank trick pvp?
Ship lovers click here |
Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.24 00:32:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 24/07/2007 00:33:20
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Originally by: Feilamya Sounds like another exploit to me. Or why shouldn't it be one? Why should it be one? I don't know ...
High sec PVP seems to be complicated.
You call this gank trick pvp?
player versus player..yes
pvp includes selling shuttles for 9million. Not all pvp is glamorous mate. Most of it is dirty and sneaky. Running missions is not pvp, because there is no other player involved. The game allows social engineering, confidence tricks and cutthroat market deals.
pvp doesn't have to be pretty, and seldom is
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Mr Friendly
That it Should Come to This
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Posted - 2007.07.24 00:49:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Flinx Evenstar
Originally by: K'reemy G'udness
Eve is the ONLY game I've ever played where you have to read the forums to learn the fine points of the game mechanics, and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82.
I respect your gaming heritage, (choplifter was awsome btw lol), but part of what makes EVE great is the fact that there is no instruction manual. It's a game of exploration, experience means something here.
dude, are you for real? It's not 'fun' to have to figure basic things out like this by reading the crap known as the Eve-forums. It's a blackmark on Eve that an MMO has so little official documentation. Since there is no 'reload level button' and we players experience 'real' loss in Eve, lack of accessible information demonstrates a weakness of Eve, not it's strength. We do play for Eve, right? It's not a Linux distro.
Personally, I sift through the forums daily, looking for whatever info I can find that I don't know about. But I don't agree at all that this is a positive feature of Eve; rather, it's yet another thing they can't be arsed to get around to. Unprofessional, to my mind.
Quote:
You must have loved the feeling of the "unknown" at the start yourself. That is part of the game, a manual would only lessen the experience. When I first saw a POS, I was genuinely amazed
Now I am jaded by the sight of 6 Titans, and fleets of over 500+, but I am still glad there was no manual
err, how would having a manual detailing things like flags and can-flipping impact AT ALL on the awe a new player feels when they enter Eve?
It might just stop these sorts of cheesy ganks from happening, instead.
Originally by: Dian Cecht Don't talk to me about NHS waiting lists!
My wife got pregnant and we had to wait 9 months before they would deliver it! And don't be fooled, they don't even deliver it! |
Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.07.24 01:39:00 -
[49]
Originally by: JadalofOblivion I'll go out on the limb with you and agree that it is weak. It's strange that in a MMO you cant trust ANYONE. I just brought 4 new ppl into the game and the first thing I told them was, DONT TRUST ANYONE, DONT GROUP WITH ANYONE.
The smart money is on the devs just being too lazy or unable to fix it. Two corps are at war but are able to group with each other?!? Bad programming.
nuff said
1. It doesn't work like that. But don't worry, most people who whine about this don't know what they're talking about.
2. Of course you can trust people. Just not random strangers. That's not trust, that's stupidity.
Also, LOL at the people wanting a comprehensive manual for EVE. If such a feat were even possible, it would be one long book. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Igus
Green Gecko Inc. Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.24 02:34:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Igus on 24/07/2007 02:34:33 How is this not an exploit? Do devs/gms not understand what is going on here or do they just not care?
1.) you do NOT get a warning while you are warping to the destination with the bait when the bait invites the third member.
2.) circumvention of the warning system for grouping with war-dec people, because you, the victim, do NOT get a warning about the at war member being invited to the gang only the gang boss gets the warning.
-- Uhg, I think I need a flux capacitor
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Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.07.24 03:14:00 -
[51]
Originally by: K'reemy G'udness Eve is the ONLY game I've ever played where you have to read the forums to learn the fine points of the game mechanics, and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82.
Which MMO does have an extensive manual then? Most I've played had a few pages detailing the interface and a coupon for $1 off on an expensive strategy guide.
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Karlemgne
The Malevolent
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Posted - 2007.07.24 05:45:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Miika Finsa So, I know i'm going to be flammed, and called noob, etc but I really don't care, so before you go there hear me out and see if you agree with me.
Now I want to preface this with, I don't care so much that I lost the ship, as to the response from the GM or lack there of.
So, I fell for the bait and flag technique I guess it's called. Where an NPC corp guy gets you to join their group, and then invites a war target to his camp of friends into your group and now your are up against odds you won't have a chance against.
So my question is this. CCP's response to my petition was that this is a well known and is considered a valid tactic.
Well 1st I would like to say that it's obviously not so well known if me almost a year old didn't know about it (I knew about the grouping with a war target causes you to be war target as well, but not the whole bait and gank thing).
Here's why I say CCP has poor form on this response.
1) when I join a waring group I get a warning. When I invite someone who is at war to my group, I get a warning. I get no warning for something like this.
2) Disbanding doesn't unflag you, and yet at the same time the targets that i'm flagged against, aren't flagged in my overview. How is it that I can be flagged and yet not see who i'm flagged against?
3) I get no messages for when my flag will expire. Am I flagged for 15 minutes? Am I flagged for 24 hours? Who knows, the interface won't tell me.
------------
That's honestly my beef with it. I can't get my ship back even though this is my first petition ever for a PVP death. I get told that this is well known and CCP views that it is valid.
I say as a programmer how hard is it to put in an acceptance check warning for any time a war target (Outside of your alliance) gets invited into the group? (with the option to ignore so for those who don't want to hit this every time can not have to deal with it).
I know this is a PVP game first, and I am fine with that in most normal means. I however feel that this tactic only harms the helpful people in this game, and quite frankly is extremely easy to fix programming wise.
Ok, now it is time for you to tell me to go play wow, and stop playing eve. Hopefully though someone will agree :p
I actually agree with the OP, using tricky game mechanics to purposefully circumvent warnings players would naturally get, is very close to an exploit.
Were the player to get said warning when the "war" target is invited to the gang, and still fell for the "scam," then all is fair.
-Karlemgne
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Expote
RSP Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.07.24 06:37:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Expote on 24/07/2007 06:41:13
Originally by: Washell Olivaw
Originally by: K'reemy G'udness Eve is the ONLY game I've ever played where you have to read the forums to learn the fine points of the game mechanics, and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82.
Which MMO does have an extensive manual then? Most I've played had a few pages detailing the interface and a coupon for $1 off on an expensive strategy guide.
Exactly.
I've played/tried dozens of MMO's and *none* of them have a complete manual. It's in the nature of MMO game mechanichs to constantly change with patches. All MMO's require the players to rely on the forums for the "fine points of game machanics".
Here's the join gang text: "<snip>No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations.<snip>"
I admit it's not entirely clear, but from this you should be able to reason out that if someone who already is at war joins the gang you'll "become vulnerable to attack". A change of the text might be in order though, if only to reduce the numbers of threads on the subject.
For the record I don't use this tactic, nor is anyone in my corp allowed to. Most are outlaws anyway, since we prefer the in your face "pirating" to the borderline exploit approach. Personally I don't consider this an exploit, but I understand why people would view it like one.
Edit: As for a manual: http://www.eve-online.com/guide/ It's more comprehensive than many in the MMO genre...
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Belial Tempter
Amarr Twisted Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.24 07:35:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Expote
Here's the join gang text: "<snip>No-one in this gang is currently in a corporation that is at war. However, be aware that if a fellow gang member's corporation does go to war with other corporations you become vulnerable to attack by members of those corporations.<snip>"
Exactly, you get a warning..even if it isn't exactly 100% crystal clear, the implications can be worked out by anyone who thinks about it instead of just clicking OK.
Carebears assuming they are 100% safe in Empire is what has caused this, cos they stopped reading warnings that come up.
When I first started playing, I read every window that came up. And yes, I actually was one of the ones who enjoyed the 'Unknown' aspect of Eve, exploring and discovering things myself, with help from the forums (Hell, still am! lol). If I, and others, can do it, why should anyone else be different?
A comprehensive manual would spoil that, though a few bits to do with corporation permissions etc would have been nice
As for the people saying you can't gang up with anyone it's not like that. You just have to not accept ganginvites - you can always gang THEM if they need help. This way you get any warnings about them being at war with anyone and you get to decide who's in the gang. I'm no expert on how this scam works but wouldn't that stop it?
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DarkElf
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.07.24 08:07:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Igus
1.) you do NOT get a warning while you are warping to the destination with the bait when the bait invites the third member.
You are missing the point completely. I'd like everyone to think about something for a second.
When you enter low sec you get a warning saying you can be attacked there freely without concord intervention and you accept the warning and proceed into space. When you get attacked by a pirate does a big warning come up saying "you are about to be attacked, if you don't want to then press this button and you will respawn in high sec". You've got your warning, after that you're on your own.
When you join a gang you get a warning about wars. After that you're on your own.
I see no difference.
DE
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Strife Phoenix
Acerbus Vindictum
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Posted - 2007.07.24 08:12:00 -
[56]
Originally by: K'reemy G'udness .. and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82...
OMG nublet :D PONG, that ring any bells?
[/humor]
In a vain attempt to not derailing completely: I thought that disbanding before coming out of warp would prevent you from being attacked (oh, not really, but concord would show up and do some muscleflexing). I want some clarification on this since it is a funny way of tricking the trickster and the one I would have used if I ever found myself in a similar situation.
ACERBUS-VINDICTUM - Revelare Pecunia! |
Hellspawn01
Amarr Falcon Advanced Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.24 08:37:00 -
[57]
One thing that I consider an flaw is that ppl that are at war form a gang or invite eachother. That part should be changed.
And yes, the warning that you get for joining a gang isnt 100% clear even to older players.
And yes, I call it an exploit that you cant see that you are flagged as a war target for the invited party and that you get attacked without any aggression.
Ship lovers click here |
Zaqar
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Posted - 2007.07.24 09:18:00 -
[58]
Originally by: K'reemy G'udness
Originally by: Zaqar
Originally by: Miika Finsa
Originally by: Sandra Jones that is a firbolg, an amarian fighter drone used by carriers.
seriously dude - if you would read the forums you would have known about this.
Ah yes, because when I play a game, I should be expected to read all posts in all of the forums at all times.
No excuse. If you'd even skimmed crime and punishment forum once in the last 2 weeks you'd know about it. Look, the thread is on the front page of the C&P forum right now.
If I see a thread called 'How X scam works', I read it, so I dont get caught by that scam.
There's been threads about this for over a year now, you just chose not to inform yourself.
Eve is the ONLY game I've ever played where you have to read the forums to learn the fine points of the game mechanics, and I've been playing PC games since friggen choplifter in '82.
CCP is raking in the money hand over fist but can't pay for technical writers to create a comprehensive manual. The only good documentation for this game is written by guys like Joered and Hoshi. And anytime anybody points this out, they get jumped on.
If you get ganked via this crappy warring gang mechanic, or get pulled 20k past a gate onto a bubble, it's your fault because you don't play this game like it's your job and constantly inform yourself by wading through 90% flame fests to find the content.
Why would game mechanics let warring members be in the same gang anyway? That makes no sense except to exploit mechanics.
And of course the GMs don't do anything about it, since it's really the Devs fault for allowing it, and CCP's fault for being too cheap to publish a complete manual that you can either order or download and print yourself.
Shame on CCP for being lazy/cheap and shame on you jerks that jump on somebody for not reading the forums "once in the last 2 weeks". You should be able to play a game casually and not have to study for it like it's an LSAT or something.
Rejected. Again, no-one has said you have to 'study' anything or 'read every thread' or any other exaggeration. The word I used was 'skim'. And yeah, they guy who 'corrected' my post to 3 years is probably more accurate. I've been seeing threads about this trick for years.
My point stands. You can't compare Eve to another game because scamming and trickery is part of the game. Everyone knows that, right? So why wouldn't you keep yourself up-to-date with the latest scams and tricks?
Surely you must appreciate the irony of whining in a forum, on the first page of which is a thread which would have saved you, had you read it?
Thanks for the flame btw. Always a sign of an intelligent mind
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cal nereus
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.07.24 10:41:00 -
[59]
If CCP believes it is faulty game mechanics, then it is an exploit of said mechanics. Otherwise, if CCP believes that the mechanics did what they were supposed to do, and the players were simply being very clever with 'em, then it is a legitimate tactic, albeit one that is cheap and ugly in the eyes of some. It is unfortunate that you had no warning, but at least you know now, and you can be better prepared for it in the future.
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Gerrig
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Posted - 2007.07.24 15:10:00 -
[60]
Why do so many people on these forums seem to enjoy the fact that this game has some obvious coding errors? The exploit that the OP described is so obvious that it is laughable to think otherwise.
and the responses....don't gang with people you don't trust...well...how do you actually begin to trust someone when you start playing unless you gang with them in the first place?
and the warning. The fact that you get a warning is meanless. The warning should say something like this then...."Ganging has not been properly coded by the developers. If a gangmember wants to exploit the lack of coding and kill you they can. Thank you for paying for eve."
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