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Freelanc3r
Caldari Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.07.23 18:34:00 -
[61]
In your 400man gang have
- 400 freighters
Hostiles have a 1/401 chance to gank the correct one. Node will probably crash too. -----------------------------------
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Nobues
Gallente DAB RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 18:34:00 -
[62]
I will not afk through hi sec space, thats how I will protect my goods.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.07.23 18:37:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Aramendel on 23/07/2007 18:42:14
Originally by: Akita T The "obvious" methods exist, indeed... namely:
* only hauling small loads per ship compared to ship value vs "toughness", that's usually a no-go for suicide gankers * the scouting method, which works quite nicely, but not against highly determined/prepared enemies (IF they exist) * the "friendly web" method, which is in itself a borderline exploit, but what the heck, it works, you use it * second hauler of same size around, to deny profits for gankers (which does not always work AND the destroyed loot in the initial blast is lost anyway)
You only really need a single combat ship which can destroy the wreck quickly if you want to deny profit for the gankers. What you are referring to is to try to save some of your stuff.
"Determined/prepared enemies" is a rather pointless assumption because that assumes you have either a) a spy which has access on your moving sheadule or b) people who are willing to camp you 24/7.
In either case they would have invested a good deal more effort than you into it (assuming you are doing a single freighter run).
So, DUH! Ohnoes, you then have to counter that with effort on your own and splitup the run into multiple indies. Excuse me if I do not see the problem there.
Quote: But this is not a thread about "suicide ganking is unfair". This is a thread about WHAT MEANS do you have to actually DEFEND your ship IF you are expecting a highsec suicide ganking.
Then why are you removing every single sensible precaution in your OP?
I especially like it how you insist on using a single freighter because you do not want to make 100 indy runs and then add a 200 man strong escort on top of it. I mean, it's not like you could simply use half the people then with an indy each, doing the same thing SAFER and FASTER with half the effort.
In short: you start the whole discussion from a completely flawed viewpoint which makes the whole thing completely pointless to discuss since the very foundation of the discussion is built on sand.
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1Reykjavik1
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Posted - 2007.07.23 18:40:00 -
[64]
Edited by: 1Reykjavik1 on 23/07/2007 18:40:25 My response would actually fit better in features and ideas but since this thread is about possible defenses and ways to protect industrials/frieghters, I figured I would give it a go here.
Have a new module fitted to an escort that "draws" targeting from whatever is being escorted. The module/rig would only protect industrials/freighters and both would need to be within a certain promimately (45km?? - to allow the max distance from the random warp in point off gates) to avoid exploits. If someone attempts to target the industrial/freighter, the targeting would instead be shifted to the escort. Only once the escort is destroyed, can you target the ship being protected. The gankers would HAVE to pop the escort(s) first or have TONs of smartbombs, giving a chance for CONCORD to arrive and deal with the situation at hand.
This is the only way I can see a viable solution to suicide ganking while keeping the spirit of PVP alive and well.
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Ishtar1
Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.23 18:51:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Ishtar1 get a titan and jumpdrive around the gate camp
HIGHSEC ganking ? Absolutely no use for the titan when the destination is in highsec.
good point erm in that case you could get 397 logistic ships 1 Huginn and one crow(in a noob corp) for a scout
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:03:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Indiano Arko There is no way to save freighter from suicide gankers in a high security space. CCP really need to fix it (no insurance payout for ships involved in criminal activities?).
SMASHES PC
Skunk
Originally by: Fink Angel They acted like Mr. Creasote at the all you can eat buffet, and CCP provided the Wafer Theeen Mint.
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Aceoil
Murder-Death-Kill Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:04:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Aceoil on 23/07/2007 19:05:13 Lets take 1 stiletto, with 2 sensor boosters, and two 90% webbers. Get your stiletto to web the freighter when it decloaks. The freighter will make it into warp before the BS's can get their lock.
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Foxy CEO
Altcenaries
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:13:00 -
[68]
Originally by: 1Reykjavik1 Edited by: 1Reykjavik1 on 23/07/2007 18:40:25 My response would actually fit better in features and ideas but since this thread is about possible defenses and ways to protect industrials/frieghters, I figured I would give it a go here.
Have a new module fitted to an escort that "draws" targeting from whatever is being escorted. The module/rig would only protect industrials/freighters and both would need to be within a certain promimately (45km?? - to allow the max distance from the random warp in point off gates) to avoid exploits. If someone attempts to target the industrial/freighter, the targeting would instead be shifted to the escort. Only once the escort is destroyed, can you target the ship being protected. The gankers would HAVE to pop the escort(s) first or have TONs of smartbombs, giving a chance for CONCORD to arrive and deal with the situation at hand.
This is the only way I can see a viable solution to suicide ganking while keeping the spirit of PVP alive and well.
That would be a totally broken module. It would be ridiculously easy to get someone concordokkened, would make focus fire impossible, and (most importantly), would result in people's ships failing to do what they were instructed to do. You will notice that modules that cause someone's ship to fail to perform as instructed create the most forum whines, followed shortly by game mechanics that allow you to kill people in high sec without concord retaliation.
I also don't see how freighter ganking is PVP. The freighter pilot is AFK. At best it's PVC (player vs. chair).
NBALT Recruitment |
Foxy CEO
Altcenaries
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:15:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Freelanc3r In your 400man gang have
- 400 freighters
Hostiles have a 1/401 chance to gank the correct one. Node will probably crash too.
Wins thread.
Especially if the other 400 are filled with shuttles. (close to empty), more node death.
NBALT Recruitment |
Mack Deluxe
PsyCorp INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:40:00 -
[70]
1. Carry 800-900 'other' items in your cargohold that are small and aren't your primary cargo. (Single units of ammo, isotopes, liquid ozone, corpses, etc..) This should make determining your actual cargo a huge PITA.
2. Make a noobcorp alt. Send said alt along your route, shooting at every gate where you're going to warp from. This will summon concord ahead of time, helping to secure your route.
But the truth of the matter is 400 pilots in battleships shooting something = something dead purely from the alphastrike. If you have 400 pilots out to get you, perhaps you should look into your life and see how you're ****ing them off.
I've done... Questionable things. |
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Sean Dillon
Caldari Naughty 40
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:46:00 -
[71]
if u have 20 bill isk, u have enough money to buy a transports/freighter alt.
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Gutsani
D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:52:00 -
[72]
destroyer + wreck = angry suiciders
thats how i would protect my stuff "if i cant have it, they cant have it" and we both lose isk. i might lose a bit more, but seriously.. if you can move 20b isk in one run, you prolly have to much isk to care.
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Betty Beatser
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Posted - 2007.07.23 19:56:00 -
[73]
Once the trap has been sprung, your chance of survival immediately drops to zero. This is the point and very nature of a trap!
The question is not 'How do I defend myself once I have walked into the trap', because the simple answer is that you cannot. Instead you need to ask yourself 'How do I prevent myself from entering the trap in the first place?'.
- Don't advertise your trip. Hostiles will not organise a 200 person logon trap if they don't know you are moving 20Bil in a freighter.
- Increase internal security. There are plenty of ways to identify spies in your corp, no leak = no trap!
- Use your intelligence network. You need to know if someone is planning something, once you know whats going on it is dead easy to reschedual or to find out what system they are logged off in and plot a course around it.
- Avoid the highways. Stay out of overpopulated systems where a fleet could be hiding in the crowd. Take a longer, yet safer route where you can identify threats a lot easier.
- Use counter intelligence. Let your enemies think you are going one way when in fact you are going another. Let them setup their trap at the wrong end of the galaxy. Change your timescale and route at the last minute to throw them off.
- Be swift! Use a webbing ship and move quickly. Most gankers of oppertunity will not be setup to kill a heavily tanked target they are not expecting, especially when it insta-warps away.
- Know when to quit. The moment you smell trouble, your journey is over. Dock/safespot and logoff, if you think it would be dangerous to continue then don't. You can finish the journey another day at another time once the danger has moved on. Remember, if you have been webbed, you will be agressed for 15 minutes so will need to wait it out keeping an eye open for probes if you cannot dock.
- etc etc etc, there is more but I grow tired of typing.
Your argument is that once you have put yourself in a situation that is impossible to escape from, it is then impossible to escape. There are plenty of ways to avoid being suicide ganked, but they all require you do do something before you have multiple hostiles pounding on your shields.
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Taedrin
Gallente Mercatoris Technologies
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:01:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Taedrin on 23/07/2007 20:02:04
<edit>
Quote: In your 400man gang have
- 400 freighters
Hostiles have a 1/401 chance to gank the correct one. Node will probably crash too.
GAH! Beat me to the punch! </edit>
400 pilots + freighter? against 200 enemies? The amount of alpha that 200 enemies can output is too staggering for a single pilot to deal with.
Easy solution.
Put the 400 pilots in freighters, and move as a group. In order to successfully suicide, they must pick the right freighter. If they can only choose one target, then they have a 1/401 chance of popping the right freighter. With sufficient counter-espionage, you can prevent your spies from knowing which freighter is the right one.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:14:00 -
[75]
I'm somewhat bothered by the "single freighter boahaha single freighter" argument when I already (multiple times) given you a decent alternative to stuff you can't split and is more valuable as many things you can put in a freighter... namely, one of THE most expensive ships in the game. Tell me how do you move that "safely" around highsec ? The "omg Corvus sighted" forum thread alones should blow any possible cover, let alone actual "ingame" intel networks.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Ah So
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:23:00 -
[76]
This sounds like the sort of stupid scenario that someone might think up after mining Veldspar for 3 years...
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Vito Parabellum
Fivrelde Corp
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:26:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Akita T I'm somewhat bothered by the "single freighter boahaha single freighter" argument when I already (multiple times) given you a decent alternative to stuff you can't split and is more valuable as many things you can put in a freighter... namely, one of THE most expensive ships in the game. Tell me how do you move that "safely" around highsec ? The "omg Corvus sighted" forum thread alones should blow any possible cover, let alone actual "ingame" intel networks.
Uh... the cloak + mwd thing works on a Corvus too dear.
------ When you say "no one's perfect", Chuck Norris takes this as a personal insult.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:40:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Banana Torres on 23/07/2007 20:41:26 I would only have one ship escorting the freighter. Fitted with webs and salvagers.
Beforehand I would follow the route that we are going to take and make a bookmark on the next grid from every gate so that it can be warped to without aligning.
Then if we bump into a gate camp the freighter starts to warp to the bookmark, and at the correct moment the escort webs the freighter and it warps off straight away.
Hopefully the gank squad will be criminally flagged and popped by concord. And their wrecks are salvaged by the escort.
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Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:40:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Banana Torres on 23/07/2007 20:41:26 I would only have one ship escorting the freighter. Fitted with webs and salvagers.
Beforehand I would follow the route that we are going to take and make a bookmark on the next grid from every gate so that it can be warped to without aligning.
Then if we bump into a gate camp the freighter starts to warp to the bookmark, and at the correct moment the escort webs the freighter and it warps off straight away.
Hopefully the gank squad will be criminally flagged and popped by concord. And their wrecks are salvaged by the escort.
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Foxy CEO
Altcenaries
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:42:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Akita T I'm somewhat bothered by the "single freighter boahaha single freighter" argument when I already (multiple times) given you a decent alternative to stuff you can't split and is more valuable as many things you can put in a freighter... namely, one of THE most expensive ships in the game. Tell me how do you move that "safely" around highsec ? The "omg Corvus sighted" forum thread alones should blow any possible cover, let alone actual "ingame" intel networks.
If you're hiding your Corvus in a freighter, perhaps you should not have bought it. If you had such a ship, though, and a tank of similar quality, you'd have about as many HP as a freighter after adjusting for resists (same ballpark, at least). You also wouldn't have the alignment/warp speed issues that make a freighter easy to kill.
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Foxy CEO
Altcenaries
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Posted - 2007.07.23 20:42:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Akita T I'm somewhat bothered by the "single freighter boahaha single freighter" argument when I already (multiple times) given you a decent alternative to stuff you can't split and is more valuable as many things you can put in a freighter... namely, one of THE most expensive ships in the game. Tell me how do you move that "safely" around highsec ? The "omg Corvus sighted" forum thread alones should blow any possible cover, let alone actual "ingame" intel networks.
If you're hiding your Corvus in a freighter, perhaps you should not have bought it. If you had such a ship, though, and a tank of similar quality, you'd have about as many HP as a freighter after adjusting for resists (same ballpark, at least). You also wouldn't have the alignment/warp speed issues that make a freighter easy to kill.
NBALT Recruitment |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:04:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Akita T on 23/07/2007 21:11:36
Originally by: Foxy CEO ...more "Akita T is a noob" stuff...
Linkage If you want it dead, it GETS killed, under the current rules. Only luck or very good counter-intel can save you... i.e. if you chose a route avoiding their highsec logon trap. That, or luck in actually pulling off the MWD+cloak thing if you did get into their pre-trap.
You know what ? FINE ! There is no problem ! Everything SHOULD be killable no matter how much protection you might bring with you ! And that goes double... no... make that TRIPLE in 0.0 You know, unless it's a mothership in lowsec... that one has the right be BE invulnerable, nothing else anywhere.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
Korasen Linachi
Pyrrhus Sicarii Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:12:00 -
[83]
A handful of logistics ships could likely keep a freighter alive with a minimum number of gankers - like 20. If they bring 50 people you're just gonna get alpha'd anyway.
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Ki Tarra
Caldari Ki Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:32:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Akita T If you want it dead, it GETS killed, under the current rules. Only luck or very good counter-intel can save you... i.e. if you chose a route avoiding their highsec logon trap. That, or luck in actually pulling off the MWD+cloak thing if you did get into their pre-trap.
You know what ? FINE ! There is no problem ! Everything SHOULD be killable no matter how much protection you might bring with you ! And that goes double... no... make that TRIPLE in 0.0 You know, unless it's a mothership in lowsec... that one has the right be BE invulnerable, nothing else anywhere.
That's about right, everything should be kill able. Even that mothership in low sec can be popped if you bring enough firepower to alpha strike it.
Once you reach a certain value of goods, the true protection lies in meta-gaming. You need strategy to win a war. Tactics will only help win the battle. Some battles cannot be won. So pick your battles carefully.
Quote: No misfortune is so bad that whining about it won't make it worse
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Eralus
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:48:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Betty Beatser Once the trap has been sprung, your chance of survival immediately drops to zero. This is the point and very nature of a trap!
I think the point is, if you KNOW the trap is there, there should be something you can do about it other than not go through the gate. In low-sec/0.0, you can just blow up the ships setting the trap (except for broken log-on game mechanics.) In hi-sec, that option isn't available, as you get condorked first.
It would be preferable if there was some tactic that let you get a freighter though the gate even if someone else didn't want you to, provided you had enough resources to overwhelm their resources. _____ Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
jilahed
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Posted - 2007.07.23 21:48:00 -
[86]
Edited by: jilahed on 23/07/2007 21:50:50
Originally by: Akita T I'm somewhat bothered by the "single freighter boahaha single freighter" argument when I already (multiple times) given you a decent alternative to stuff you can't split and is more valuable as many things you can put in a freighter... namely, one of THE most expensive ships in the game. Tell me how do you move that "safely" around highsec ? The "omg Corvus sighted" forum thread alones should blow any possible cover, let alone actual "ingame" intel networks.
How is this relevant to the issue of freighter suicide? You do not need a freighter to transport a battleship. Apart from that your intent is obviously (though you claim to be neutral) to discuss possible changes to game mechanics on the base of some hypothetical scenarios. I am not saying this is wrong but the corvus scenario is just not what's the usual freighter pilot is up to. Any scenarios discussed should be realistic (realistic not only possible!) if you remotely plan to base a change of game mechanic on it.
Now how many Corvus are ingame? Apart from that you are ignoring the many posts on the cloak-method which should work on a corvus too. (Edit: ok you adressed it, still i have to ask you in return: should a corvus be indestroyable?)
And maybe you should stop claiming to be neutral. I mean you are entitled to lie as much as you want on eve-o but i think your answers in this thread made your stance on the issue more than clear. Again if you think game mechanics should be changed (again) in favour of freighter pilots its fine but trying to act as a neutral "moderator" when your OP was already full of bias...
Especially if you plan on to show your neutrality with gold nuggets like this:
Originally by: Akita T
You know what ? FINE ! There is no problem ! Everything SHOULD be killable no matter how much protection you might bring with you ! And that goes double... no... make that TRIPLE in 0.0 You know, unless it's a mothership in lowsec... that one has the right be BE invulnerable, nothing else anywhere.
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Kaishain
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Posted - 2007.07.23 22:11:00 -
[87]
Lower the cargospace of freighters by 10-20% and give it 1 low-slot. You could either fit a cargoexpander and get the same amount of cargo as you got now. OR you could fit a Damage Control making it much harder to kill.
Atleast give us some options.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.07.23 22:14:00 -
[88]
Originally by: jilahed How is this relevant to the issue of freighter suicide? [...] Any scenarios discussed should be realistic (realistic not only possible!) if you remotely plan to base a change of game mechanic on it. [...] And maybe you should stop claiming to be neutral. I mean you are entitled to lie as much as you want on eve-o but i think your answers in this thread made your stance on the issue more than clear. Again if you think game mechanics should be changed (again) in favour of freighter pilots its fine but trying to act as a neutral "moderator" when your OP was already full of bias... Especially if you plan on to show your neutrality with gold nuggets like this:
Originally by: Akita T [...] Everything SHOULD be killable no matter how much protection you might bring with you ! [...]
It's not THAT relevant to the issue of freighter suicide.
It is however relevant to the issue of "you can't REALLY protect anything in highsec". Anything you can do is a borderline exploit to make it get away faster, and certainly you don't get much of a ripose option. Safer, not safe ? Ha ! LOWSEC is safer as highsec if you have the superior firepower.
In highsec, no matter how much of it you have, you can't EFFECTIVELY bring it to bear. And the compound (seemingly unrelated) problem of logon traps. That's the issue.
Char creation guide | Module/Rig stacknerfing explained |
jilahed
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Posted - 2007.07.23 22:19:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Kaishain Lower the cargospace of freighters by 10-20% and give it 1 low-slot. You could either fit a cargoexpander and get the same amount of cargo as you got now. OR you could fit a Damage Control making it much harder to kill.
Atleast give us some options.
How is that an option? You gain 60% structure resistance and a bit for shields and armor. So it will probably take about the double amount of gankers. This will then become the new standard procedure and we are back at the point we are now. People will complain they cannot do *anything* to protect themselves and ask (again) for "some options". Doesnt make any sense. Its not like there arent enough stupid and lazy freighter pilots who carry enough goods for making profit out of suiciding 40 or even 80 bs (be it *with* or *without* insurance).
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Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.07.23 22:19:00 -
[90]
399 Basilisks and a Claymore with speedmods and a 90% web.
And my backup plan?
Ctrl+Q
Corvus:
Speedmods fillling lows, Snakeset, T2 cloak, and a corpmate with a web.
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