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Frug
Zenithal Harvest
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Posted - 2007.08.22 19:04:00 -
[61]
Despite the seemingly massive consensus that bombs suck, I have a suspicion that this is one of those things that someone leet enough will figure out how to use effectively in certain situations. A dedicated squad with a good amount of practice, if they pull this off, has the potential to pwn a whole lot more ships without ever engaging directly.
The 20 mill pricetag, plus the loss of bombers, makes it too expensive to practice for most :(
And lag. Lag ruins everything though.
- - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.08.22 19:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Grimpak reasons for not using bombs:
1st: too expensive 2nd: their damage is not OMFGWTFBBQ! 3rd: their visual effect is more of a *plop* than a "KAPLAW!"
That sums it up perfectly. Well the 3rd point is not so important because I think effects are turned off anyway in large operations.
But for their damage they are FAR too expensive. Especially if you consider that you probably lose the ship as well. So just 30 mil down the drain for what damage? Imagine how many stabbers you can buy for that after insurance payout. LOTS more.
And to be effective you need severals bombs. No, they are way too expensive.
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Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.08.22 19:57:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
3/ Boost Afterburners significantly. Make them the tool for manoeuvring, keeping transversal up whist keeping the signature radius down.
Yes, great manoevering while module lag is 15 seconds or maybe 1 minute.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
5/ Fix the tracking calculations. Signature radius becomes non-static, at long range smaller target – smaller cross section – reduced hit chance.
Increases the need for computation stuff by a huge degree -> more lag = very bad idea.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
6/ Line-of-sight Whatever it takes to get this needs to be implemented, even if its ‘quasi’-line of sight through some trick – you should not be able to fire through your own powerball and everything else in the path of your target.
Incredible stupid idea. First it would not only crash the servers because of the additional strain to cpu/io load. It also makes no sense in a battle where you experience lag greater than a few seconds.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
8/ Collisions. Well in the last dev blog they pretty much wrote off looking into the physics engine, but it does need looking into. Collisions should be something to be wary of – further reducing the incentive to pack ships into a small volume
Hell...more lag by all the collision checks??
Sorry, all your ideas are not well thought. They are absolutely not working here, they will only increase the lag drastically! Please think at least one step ahead of 'i want this' and consider 'how would it work with the servers and the game engine'. CCP cannot rewrite the whole Eve software. That is an impossible task and everyone with some mind knows this. They can only improve here or there a piece.
Look at what happened when they introduced heat. LOTS of more lag and who is using it in battles? No one because you cannot use it due to the lag.
Things needs to be made easier not more complex.
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Yuleth Gix
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Posted - 2007.08.22 20:53:00 -
[64]
Seriously even tho you have 1min module lag and apparently everytime you wana do something it takes 1min for it to happen doesn't mean it happens like that for everyone else.
Heat useless? Uhhh no sir, it is quite usefull in many situations. Like how about that interceptor that's just 1k faster than you and has you locked down?
Maybe you need to consider that it's not just gigantic fleet fights in eve that take place.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.22 20:56:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Tarminic on 22/08/2007 20:59:54
Originally by: Gnulpie Look at what happened when they introduced heat. LOTS of more lag and who is using it in battles? No one because you cannot use it due to the lag. Things needs to be made easier not more complex.
Though I agree with the first half of your post, are you suggesting that heat somehow causes lag? Because it doesn't. EDIT:
Originally by: Gabriel Karade Interesting ideas
I actually quite like ideas 1-4 and idea 9 - those have merit and deserve some attention (yo devs!). I had an incredibly lengthy discussion on formations not too long ago if I remember correctly. As for the others, they're interesting but probably can't be implemented well due to increased server strain. Thanks for the reply though. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.22 21:00:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Tarminic on 22/08/2007 20:59:45 EDIT: Whoops, double post ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Nyphur
Pillowsoft Total Comfort
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Posted - 2007.08.22 21:03:00 -
[67]
I tried to point out when the devblog came out about bombs that they seemed designed to counter a problem that simply didn't exist. A blob is not a bunch of ships that are bunched tightly together, there's no such thing as a "powerball" (that's the word they used for it in the blog) and bombs wouldn't sort out blobbing at all. The sad thing is that I don't think they were meant to sort out blobbing but just to be fun new toys and unfortunately they were marketed as anti-blob weapons.
Eve-Tanking.com - We're sorry, something happened. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.08.22 21:21:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Gnulpie Look at what happened when they introduced heat. LOTS of more lag and who is using it in battles? No one because you cannot use it due to the lag. Things needs to be made easier not more complex.
Though I agree with the first half of your post, are you suggesting that heat somehow causes lag? Because it doesn't.
Thanks for agreeing a bit
But heat does cause lag. Maybe not noticable at 1 vs 1 but the more the worse it gets.
And bombs were designed and introduced as means to kill the blob and to reduce lag. They don't do that currently. Why not? Because they are just too expensive!
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.08.22 21:36:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 22/08/2007 21:41:29
Originally by: Gnulpie Lag!!!!111
Are you really trying to suggest heat created lag? - outside of some messed up fleet battles, I've seen no problems over the last year and a half.
Lag is no excuse for not fixing borked game mechanics, if it we're, we'd be playing a text-based game by now.
Eve may have some serious issues with de-syncs and lag in certain fleet situations (bubbles could well be part of the problem judging from some combat reports), but that shouldn't prevent ongoing re-evaluation of game mechanics. ----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Solbright
Advanced Security And Asset Protection
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Posted - 2007.08.23 06:20:00 -
[70]
Here's my two cents worth:
- Spreading the power ball out does nothing to reduce the blob size. A blob is every object in one grid coordinate.
- Blobs aren't the problem anyway, lag and stutter is.
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Hannobaal
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.23 07:13:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Solbright Here's my two cents worth:
- Spreading the power ball out does nothing to reduce the blob size. A blob is every object in one grid coordinate.
- Blobs aren't the problem anyway, lag and stutter is.
And we have a winner! ------------------
Disclaimer: Any dumbass opinions I may express in my posts on this board do not in any way reflect the opinions of my corp.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.08.23 08:18:00 -
[72]
Why the hell are bombs less effective against smaller targets? It's a 20 million bomb ffs
Caldari and proud |
Nicholas Barker
MASS Ministry Of Amarrian Secret Service
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Posted - 2007.08.23 08:23:00 -
[73]
they need to make the bombs show up on overview, i'm sick of having to change my camera to look at the bomber watching for bombs. ---
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annoing
Amarr MisFunk Inc. Frontline.
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Posted - 2007.08.23 08:29:00 -
[74]
Ive been in a battle where SB tried to use bombs without any success. They, the SB's, camped the gate and waited for the opposing fleet to warp in and the plan was to drop their bombs and warp out. It failed miserably and the SB's were wiped out all bar one. Ive not even tried to use one as 20mil is far too expensive at a time.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.23 09:20:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Gnulpie
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
3/ Boost Afterburners significantly. Make them the tool for manoeuvring, keeping transversal up whist keeping the signature radius down.
Yes, great manoevering while module lag is 15 seconds or maybe 1 minute.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
5/ Fix the tracking calculations. Signature radius becomes non-static, at long range smaller target û smaller cross section û reduced hit chance.
Increases the need for computation stuff by a huge degree -> more lag = very bad idea.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
6/ Line-of-sight Whatever it takes to get this needs to be implemented, even if its æquasiÆ-line of sight through some trick û you should not be able to fire through your own powerball and everything else in the path of your target.
Incredible stupid idea. First it would not only crash the servers because of the additional strain to cpu/io load. It also makes no sense in a battle where you experience lag greater than a few seconds.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
8/ Collisions. Well in the last dev blog they pretty much wrote off looking into the physics engine, but it does need looking into. Collisions should be something to be wary of û further reducing the incentive to pack ships into a small volume
Hell...more lag by all the collision checks??
Sorry, all your ideas are not well thought. They are absolutely not working here, they will only increase the lag drastically! Please think at least one step ahead of 'i want this' and consider 'how would it work with the servers and the game engine'. CCP cannot rewrite the whole Eve software. That is an impossible task and everyone with some mind knows this. They can only improve here or there a piece.
Look at what happened when they introduced heat. LOTS of more lag and who is using it in battles? No one because you cannot use it due to the lag.
Things needs to be made easier not more complex.
Your counter argument boils down to lag and computation load.
Well:
1. cone of acuracy for guns - this one is realy easy. Ever heard of lookup tables ? basicaly you create a table with 250 entries (targeting limit) for each 1km for each sig res of guns. that way when you fire the gun, you check the proper table for range and you get the tracking modifier that you input into the calculation. these as we have only 4 gun sizes, there are only 4 tables.
2. line of sight - this one is tricky. but basicaly you are operating with bounding boxes here. you draw a bounding box for the target and all the objects between target and gun on a 2d plane. then you overlay them and look how much of the target is hidden behind other objects. problem is ship orientation, but again you can simplify this by creating tables for each ship and a few orientations. or you simply project a circle based on the sig rad of the ship. there are many options, from crude to very fine.
3. collisions - those are already computed. you just add a bit of realism to them.
you see things don't need to be cpu intensive to get great results. there are many very optimised ways to do a thing to great result.
Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
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Khorian
Gallente Excidium.
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Posted - 2007.08.23 10:33:00 -
[76]
Using Bombs to kill single Targets should and never will be cost effective. It is a high damage area of effect weapon system, and as such it will only be effective if used against many Targets at once.
I think there are not enough competent and expirienced Bomber Wings yet. On top of that, I think the bombs should still explode if the Bomber popped.
If you make bombs cheap, they will be used too much and against single targets wich is not the way they were intended.
3 or more bombers of the same type and used correctly together with a cov ops and a dictor should be able to cause some serious damage to BS fleets.
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Herring
Pimpology Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2007.08.23 11:09:00 -
[77]
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: eve warrior
Originally by: Kappas.
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: Waxau Without offending ccp, these bombs were doomed to start - Whilst they looked good on the stats front, it was much like the hawk. Hawks when they were boosted, had a huge price increase, and were known as the Cerb AF, due to their RoF etc.
Bombs are the same thing. Looked good, were needed, but to be quite frank (you can be george if ya like), they lacked purpose, and the excuse given (blob warfare) wasnt viable.
Damn i feel mean busting chops
4 bombs make a raven go POOF. which is kinda fun. but I don't know, because it's useful on sisi, I haven't tried on the main server.
4 bombs would also cost you 80m to kill a 100m ship lol
BUT can u imagine when u have a group of 20+ bs sitting on a gate in your system and u deploy afew bombs. If 4 can kill a raven, you would rip that entire gang apart with bombers. I dont see what the problem is here, They are supposted to be expencive or ppl would just spam them away.
Eve warrior
the problem is that bombs are new and we just wait for people to gain experience with them and for the price to come down due to ME
The price won't come down with ME because of the additional pre-nerf of ME, researching them only decreases the use of trit and pyerite while the rest of the mineral requirements stay the same - brought to you by the anti-compression squad at CCP.
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William Alex
Viscosity
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Posted - 2007.08.23 12:31:00 -
[78]
If you reserach the blueprint for a week you get it down to 15mil at current mineral market prices in jita.
Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.08.23 13:14:00 -
[79]
Change bombs to behave like slower moving torps with similar blast radii etc.
Give them a larger yield, say 10% more, but no graphical blast radius like smarties have. Except for the lockbreaker.
Change the colours of the bombs to match function so identification of the missile is observable to the victim.
Make the range of fire 16km basic without skills. And reduce the cost of production to 80% of current price.
My 1 isk
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."
-Albert Einstein
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Kcel Chim
Caldari Arcane Technologies The Five
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Posted - 2007.08.23 13:50:00 -
[80]
im not quiet sure why these threads even pop up. Stealthbombers have been useless ever since they got implemented and never made it into the "cool to use" area. Bombs failed miserable because with the current gamesituation of desync, incredible lag and delays they are not able to deliver what they were praised for, to hinder blobwarfare.
CCP needs to focus all their ressources on reducing and rewriting code which creates lag before we can even think about working Aoe weapons. No hotfix of bombs will do that. Whats the point of a weapon which you cant deploy because u never load up ?
Currently the only "counter a blob" tool is a bigger blob, especially after the titan got nerfed for well known reasons and because it was needed to prevent eve from turning into supercapital online.
If they would remove bombers, bombs alongside heat and boosters from the game i think the majority wouldnt even notice. Nice features which look good when advertised but have not much use.
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cuteboylookingatyou
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Posted - 2007.08.23 13:54:00 -
[81]
Use bombers to blow up miners. Do they work in low security space?
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Terranid Meester
Knights Hospitalier
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Posted - 2007.08.23 14:19:00 -
[82]
Shame stealth bombers cannot use a cov ops cloak. Id always imagined that with bombs that would be useful.
Of course theres all the problems as stated with bombs above to sort out first.
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cuteboylookingatyou
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Posted - 2007.08.23 15:11:00 -
[83]
Edited by: cuteboylookingatyou on 23/08/2007 15:11:00
Originally by: Terranid Meester Shame stealth bombers cannot use a cov ops cloak. Id always imagined that with bombs that would be useful.
Of course theres all the problems as stated with bombs above to sort out first.
So can they work in low security space?
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ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf
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Posted - 2007.08.31 12:25:00 -
[84]
Originally by: William Alex If you reserach the blueprint for a week you get it down to 15mil at current mineral market prices in jita.
That makes it so much better.
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Valan
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Posted - 2007.08.31 12:43:00 -
[85]
Why bother introducing a token mechanic with no real teeth to counter an issue while developing major content to encourage uber blobs?
Sovereignty is creating bigger blobs than ever.
POS warfare and the escalation of it, including capital ships means blobbing is here to stay.
Throwing more hardware at it isn't going to work. You're gonna need a redesign, a recode which isn't really feasible. So an EVE 2 is the only way to go.
/start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game three years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig |
ViolenTUK
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Posted - 2007.08.31 13:32:00 -
[86]
Many people seem to have missed the point that a bomb will hit 20+ targets at 4000+ damage each. Hitting a gate camp with 80000 damage is a very big help when your combative fleet jumps or warps through. A clever Stealth pilot will be so innocuous that the bomb will be delivered when any shield tankers are more than likely to have their active tank disabled. The stealth pilot could observe from cloaked how vigilant the campers are and pick his moment.
Bomb prices well this could be helped by lowering the material costs just a little. I manufacture bombs and this would help keep the prices down. I will add that i always sell them for less than 20 mill.
www.eve-players.com |
ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:37:00 -
[87]
Originally by: ViolenTUK Many people seem to have missed the point that a bomb will hit 20+ targets at 4000+ damage each. Hitting a gate camp with 80000 damage is a very big help when your combative fleet jumps or warps through. A clever Stealth pilot will be so innocuous that the bomb will be delivered when any shield tankers are more than likely to have their active tank disabled. The stealth pilot could observe from cloaked how vigilant the campers are and pick his moment.
Bomb prices well this could be helped by lowering the material costs just a little. I manufacture bombs and this would help keep the prices down. I will add that i always sell them for less than 20 mill.
Their cost and method of delivery makes them useless.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:41:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Terranid Meester Shame stealth bombers cannot use a cov ops cloak. Id always imagined that with bombs that would be useful.
Of course theres all the problems as stated with bombs above to sort out first.
You don't need a Cov Ops cloak because with the right set of skills, the bomber can move faster while cloaked than cloaked.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Terranid Meester
Knights Hospitalier
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Posted - 2007.08.31 15:43:00 -
[89]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Originally by: Terranid Meester Shame stealth bombers cannot use a cov ops cloak. Id always imagined that with bombs that would be useful.
Of course theres all the problems as stated with bombs above to sort out first.
You don't need a Cov Ops cloak because with the right set of skills, the bomber can move faster while cloaked than cloaked.
I mean as warping in cloaked and dropping a bomb without them seeing you warp in. For surprise attacks.
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Tai Otoshi
Caldari Crimson Star Empire FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.31 15:45:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Tai Otoshi on 31/08/2007 15:46:04 All it's changed for me was last night, in a 250 ship fleet battle, I had an overview set up to show only stealth bombers when the enemy fleet jumped in on us. I instapopped 4 manticores, with my tachyon II's, within 30 seconds, then switched to normal overview.
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