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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:33:00 -
[1]
I think salvaging someone else's wreck should flag you.
My reasons: Stealing their wreck flags you, and the salvage can be vastly more valuable (T2 ship wrecks). You can't tractor the wreck. Generally "tractorability" of stuff is in line with what flags you. Meaning, with the exception of wrecks, cans you can't tractor flag you when you take stuff from them. I think CCP, in typical fashion forgot to test/check/include flagging for salvage stealing. Oversights like this are typical of CCP. Just because they forgot doesn't mean they didn't mean to.
What say you, CCP and players?
This is my opinion, so feel free to say my opinion is wrong. It will be funny. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:40:00 -
[2]
Yeah, the more flagging the better.
In the case of the wreck of a player ship it should belong to both the owner of the original ship and the person who popped it. So that any ninja looters can be targetted too.
Also make it so that everyone in the salvage stealers corporation is flagged to the owner of the wreck. And if the owner of the wreck fights back then the whole of his corporation is flagged to the whole of the stealers corporation.
I am sure there a other ways to bring back real PvP to high sec, but CCP will ignore them too. So I will stop here.
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Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:44:00 -
[3]
The term "salvage" implies that you are rescuing or saving something that has been lost or abandoned, i.e. "thrown-away".
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861700952/salvage.html
Salvage is and should always be a free for all, whoever gets there first, gets the cheese.
Cats do play EVE. Where did you think player names like asdfghjj came from?
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Sebastien LeReparteur
Minmatar Section XIII Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:44:00 -
[4]
Wreck are space trash.
Trash belongs to no one.
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Banana Torres In the case of the wreck of a player ship it should belong to both the owner of the original ship and the person who popped it.
I was torn on this particular point. Should the player or the killer get rights? I think the killer should still get flagged (but since they probably still are, it doesn't really matter.
Not sure about the corp level flagging. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:49:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lady Natacha The term "salvage" implies that you are rescuing or saving something that has been lost or abandoned, i.e. "thrown-away".
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861700952/salvage.html
Salvage is and should always be a free for all, whoever gets there first, gets the cheese.
None of the definitions cited imply that it was abandoned or thrown away. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:51:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Lady Natacha The term "salvage" implies that you are rescuing or saving something that has been lost or abandoned, i.e. "thrown-away".
http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861700952/salvage.html
Salvage is and should always be a free for all, whoever gets there first, gets the cheese.
In my country anything you salvage from wrecks belongs to Betty. You must tell one of her constabulary officers and they will decide if you can keep it.
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:52:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Sebastien LeReparteur Wreck are space trash.
Trash belongs to no one.
I would contend that since the salvage taken from them can be extremely valuable that it is not trash. Just because it's labeled a "wreck" and the act of recovering valuables form it is called "salvaging" does not in my opinion make it trash.
Would you still think so if it were called "Recovery"?
While I can't argue with you opinion, I call bull**** on your stated reasons. Pure greed would be more cogent and less controversial. :) ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.07.26 15:59:00 -
[9]
I really hope wrecks are not given ownership rights, beyond the contents within them.
Would really really suck...
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:01:00 -
[10]
From what little I know of salvage law in the real world, someone who salvages endangered property on navigable waters obtains the right to monetary payment from the owner. In this case, a third party (such as a judicial court) would assign the salvager a monetary reward from the owner, but the owner would retain rights to the salvage itself. The monetary reward would be based on the time, effort, risk, etc. So, if applied to EVE, this would mean that the owner of the shipwreck would get the salvage, but the salvager of the shipwreck would get paid for it (regardless of whether the shipwreck owner wanted the salvager to salvage it in the first place). However, I see no reasonable way of applying that to EVE except on an individual person-to-person basis. Individual players should make arrangements to have someone else salvage their wrecks, and then cut a deal to split the profits. Or something like that. ---
Grismar.net |
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:08:00 -
[11]
Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:12:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Winterblink Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
Opinionated speculation != fact.
Don't pretend it is. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Trem Sinval
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:13:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Xaen I think CCP, in typical fashion forgot to test/check/include flagging for salvage stealing. Oversights like this are typical of CCP. Just because they forgot doesn't mean they didn't mean to.
You'd be wrong there. (funny, innit?)
Originally, wrecks were unsalvagable if they still contained loot (ie, what you're asking for; flagging protection against ninja salvagers).
CCP changed this behavior to allow salvaging without flagging. This is no doubt because the people often salvaging other's wrecks are new players looking for their first piles of cash, and really ought not to be shot out of the sky for picking up the trash of the universe.
It still surprises me how many people still don't salvage their wrecks, either in missions or out in the belts. There's a fair amount of money to be made just trawling a popular ratting spot salvaging the leftovers.
Again, Salvaging rules: Working as intended.
Flagging rules: Not intended to be used as an excuse for PvP.
- Trem |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:18:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Winterblink Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
Opinionated speculation != fact.
Don't pretend it is.
Salvaging has repeatedly been referred to by CCP as being a mini-profession, which is part of the reason why you don't get flagged for doing it to someone else's wrecks.
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WhitePhantom
Gallente Edenists
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:19:00 -
[15]
Only reason anyone would want ownership rights ( aka flag rights ) to salavage it, is to attack people when they do salavage it by mistake. If you want to be able to fight back against somebody who ninja salvages, then go to 0.4 and below.
Salvaging is fine, it was changed to this way on purpose, it has not even been 2 months yet and people already want it the way it was?
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Fswd
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:38:00 -
[16]
It is not your wreck, it still belongs to the guy you killed imo, as it WAS his ship. --- Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig
*Snip* Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you |
KillinVillin
Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:45:00 -
[17]
Lol... From what I rember you did get Concorded when you salvaged somone wreck. Lets don't bring that change back. Sit Back, and let Eve take its course. |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.07.26 16:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Winterblink Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
Opinionated speculation != fact.
Don't pretend it is.
I posted it in the other thread, but here it is again:
https://support.eve-online.com/Pages/KB/Article.aspx?id=330
"When a ship is destroyed, whether it is a player ship or an NPC ship, it leaves a wreck. The modules and items from the cargohold that are not destroyed in the ship's explotion, can be looted. In addition to this, raw materials can be extracted from the wreck by using salvaging. The materials salvaged can be sold on the market or used to create rigs.
Note that anyone can salvage materials from wrecks, regardless of who destroyed the ship, while looting items from a wreck can get you flagged and a legal target for the owner."
So, we can have (yet another) discussion about whether ownership of salvage should be changed, but arguing that it's merely a bug or an oversight is a waste of time. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Willow Whisp on 26/07/2007 17:15:13
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Winterblink Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
Opinionated speculation != fact.
Don't pretend it is.
According to Oveur, it is, indeed, a Fact
Originally by: Oveur - No criminal flag for salvaging (looting still flags you)
Edit: Tsanse beat me to it ...
Sadist Faction is recruiting |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:25:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Trem Sinval
Originally by: Xaen I think CCP, in typical fashion forgot to test/check/include flagging for salvage stealing. Oversights like this are typical of CCP. Just because they forgot doesn't mean they didn't mean to.
You'd be wrong there. (funny, innit?)
Originally, wrecks were unsalvagable if they still contained loot (ie, what you're asking for; flagging protection against ninja salvagers).
CCP changed this behavior to allow salvaging without flagging [Citation Needed]. This is no doubt because the people often salvaging other's wrecks are new players looking for their first piles of cash, and really ought not to be shot out of the sky for picking up the trash of the universe.
It still surprises me how many people still don't salvage their wrecks, either in missions or out in the belts. There's a fair amount of money to be made just trawling a popular ratting spot salvaging the leftovers.
Again, Salvaging rules: Working as intended.
Flagging rules: Not intended to be used as an excuse for PvP.
Did they change it to allow salvaging without flagging? Or was it to allow salvaging without looting (because a person wanted the salvage, but didn't care about the loot)? The latter seems more likely.
------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Winterblink
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Winterblink Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
Opinionated speculation != fact.
Don't pretend it is.
Salvaging has repeatedly been referred to by CCP as being a mini-profession, which is part of the reason why you don't get flagged for doing it to someone else's wrecks.
First reply thus far that makes any sense. Congrats. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:26:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 26/07/2007 17:27:06
Originally by: Willow Whisp
According to Oveur, it is, indeed, a Fact
That thread brings back memories.
Hey, that reminds me...I seem to remember Oveur saying around the same time in response to all the complaints that they'd look at changing Survey to a genuinely useful skill. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:32:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Willow Whisp Edited by: Willow Whisp on 26/07/2007 17:15:13
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Winterblink Flagging is fine as it is. Steal the loot and you get flagged. Salvage the wreck and you don't. It's not an oversight, it's not a mistake, it's not a bug.
Opinionated speculation != fact.
Don't pretend it is.
According to Oveur, it is, indeed, a Fact
Originally by: Oveur - No criminal flag for salvaging (looting still flags you)
Edit: Tsanse beat me to it
D'oh.
You guys win.
/me cries in a corner ------------------------------------------------------------------- Support fixing the EVE UI |
Willow Whisp
Sadist Faction
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:40:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Willow Whisp on 26/07/2007 17:40:17
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Willow Whisp stuff
D'oh.
You guys win.
/me cries in a corner
Not really about winning or loosing. But, can you imagine the price on salvage components if only those who killed the wrecks could salvage freely? They are overpriced as it is, due to low availability of components, some more than others. I cringe to think of how much more rigs would cost if availability was even lower than it currently is. ...
Sadist Faction is recruiting |
Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2007.07.26 17:41:00 -
[25]
No matter how it is set, someone will find a reason to complain about it.
- Can't salvage a wreck you don't own at all: "CCP, why can't we clean up all these wrecks people leave behind?"
- Salvaging anothers wreck flags you: "CCP, why do we have to risk someone attacking us when they're too lazy to salvage it in the first place? You only cater to the greifers"
- You can salvage anothers wreck without consequence: "CCP, why can people steal my wrecks and I can't retaliate?"
It's a no win for CCP.
Fact is they changed it to the way it is now intentionally. The wreck owner still has an advantage in that they can tractor it, as you said.
Early bird gets the salvage, I suppose.
------------------- WE'RE SORRY, SOMETHING HAPPENED |
Luigi Thirty
Caldari 19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2007.07.26 18:06:00 -
[26]
There's also the fact that not everyone can salvage, but everyone can loot wrecks. ---- DOMINIX IS INVINCIBLE:(((( |
demonfurbie
Minmatar Covert Nexus Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium
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Posted - 2007.07.26 18:15:00 -
[27]
do you shoot at the trash guy when he takes your trash to the dump??
wrecks are just that trash and if some one wants to clean them up more power to them
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Aille Pluthrak
Caldari Racketeers
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Posted - 2007.07.26 18:16:00 -
[28]
To bad so sad.
The wreck isn't yours just the crap inside. Then again some people would like this to change just to get you to agress em so that they can get a bigger and badder ship then yours so that they can salvage your future wreck. And maybe sell your stuff back to you.
Either way is fine with me. I flip your can or I flip your wreck. It's all the same to me.
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