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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Borasao
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:11:00 -
[1]
Originally by: The Amarrien WTF!!
They turning all my amarr ships into rocket ship!
i have 0 SP in missiles.
Brilliant job
Maybe all of *your* specific ships you own... the Zealot, the Absolution, the Crusader, and the Retribution are all untouched and are still the same exact laser boats they were before.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:57:00 -
[2]
One (similarly made up) scenario for fighting a cap-independent ship equipped with NEUT with an Amarr laser boat...
As the CIN (cap-independent NEUT) ship NEUTs your energy away, you NOS him down as well... the CIN is paying to kill your cap (and his cap from your NOS drain), too. Once you both get to zero cap, pop a cap booster charge, CIN doesn't have the cap to use the NEUT and your NOS cost you nothing to use (still). If the CIN pops a cap booster, you'll get energy from it. Your lasers keep running somewhat, CIN can't NEUT you and if it pops a cap booster charge, you'll NOS it down to equal anyway. So... even though you both death-spiral down to zero, the ship with NEUT will be at a disadvantage since it can no longer NEUT but the NOS ship can cap boost after that point all it wants. Put a NEUT on the NOS ship in addition and once you hit zero, the CIN will never regain cap. It's kind of like the Amarr and CIN death spiral down to 0 but then the Amarr ship bounces back up while the CIN just sits flat on the ground.
This is much better than today when everybody equips NOS and once you hit 0, you don't have any options because active NOS sucks it away (even on the CIN above).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:59:00 -
[3]
Quote: The only real non cap dependent ships are passive tanked shielders, which weren't affected by NOS anyway.
Which means that any NOS ship is free to suck their cap down just as before. You may have to engage your armor rep a cycle or two even if you don't need it to keep your cap lower than your target, but you'll be able to drain the target the whole while.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:40:00 -
[4]
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Can I have your stuff?
You can't have all the quitters' stuff... where would you put it? At least let me have some of the Sacs/Vengences they think are somehow worthless now!
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.07.31 18:05:00 -
[5]
Yup... I think the Sacrilege and Vengence will be really good ships as they are. If CCP "opens up" the bonus to include all launchers for each class (mediums for the Sac and lights for the Vengence), they'll just be even better... I imagine the Caldari Cerberus pilots will complain a lot and get the damage bonus nerfed to just EM, if that happens though. The Hawk pilots will just lay eggs over the Vengence.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:16:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Borasao on 31/07/2007 20:17:33
Originally by: Asterixm
Originally by: murder one
Originally by: Asterixm thanks a lot ccp i just finished heavy assault ship lvl5,
now i can't fly sacrilege because i have 0 sp in missile
great job
Now that you're done training HAC 5, you have plenty of time to cross train missiles.
nah seriously .... amarr recon specialist ... amarr hac specialist
1.5 years training ....
just one patch and he become TOTALY useless
Yeah... because they removed the Zealot from the game. The Pilgrim has issues but the Curse has alternate play modes to still be a pretty good solopwn ship, if you have the open mindedness to try some different setups, just maybe not quite as good as before. In gangs, they can still be very useful. Just because you limit yourself to one style of play does not mean that others are invalid. The good players will adapt fairly easily from what I've seen in other posts. The poor ones will cry about the changes without considering any other setups than the ones they've been using to afk pvp for some time now.
AND, all of this is still proposed changes... we haven't seen (if there will be) any changes to the Curse or Pilgrim because of these changes.
The Sacrilege sucked and the only reason people used it was because it was cheap and had a decent tank (meaning they were targeted last and didn't die first... classic camper motive).
Just FYI: I fly pretty much all Amarr ships (tech1 and tech2) except battleships up to Command Ships except for Interdictors and I'm pretty happy with the changes. I think they bring something exciting to Amarr for a change. I think my Curse will be OK.
Plus, I can even see how the NOSs help the cap sucking laser boats by making them harder to NOS because those laser boats can play with the cap level to keep the enemies from NOSing them.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 15:13:00 -
[7]
Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand,
Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school.
Quote: and it leaves quite a few ships broken [bloodraider factionals] and in need of fixing (having played on SISI more with my curse, it is sorely lacking in DPS to make other players break their own tanks)
I would agree... At this time, I would at least give CCP some credit in thinking that they'd fix these somehow (probably just change the NOS only skill bonuses to NOS/NEUT bonuses like on the Curse/Pilgrim). The Pilgrim, however, is hurting a bit. Maybe change it from an amount to the range bonus would help, I dunno. However, the Curse appears to be fine for anyone who isn't just a FOTM/solopwn trainer (they are the ones who seem to have problems grasping any new tactics or accepting that it's almost the same, you just have to pay attention to the game instead of F1-F5 /afk).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 16:23:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't.
Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer.
90% are simply "I've trained lasers and I'm mad the ship doesn't have lasers. It's not 'true' Amarr. All Amarr ships are worthless now that these six were changed.". 5% are things along the lines of "HAM missles don't have enough range to really be effective". and 5% are "HAMs don't make sense on the Damnation".
10% have actual arguments as to why the changes aren't adequate (not necessarily bad, just not far enough). The other 90% is whine.
Hopefully, HAM missiles will get a slight adjustment in addition (hopefully in speed to increase the range to around 10-12k without skills so that they'll hit 20-24k with maxed skills, IMO).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 16:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Count Hexar I've just spent a month training for a curse and you nerf it to death.
If you wanted to just stop those domis, make nos have a stacking penatly. Dont completely cripple it.
As soon as people decide on somthing they like doing/flying and skill to be good at it, you change the way the game works. This is not fair at all!
Skilling up for a solopwn ship, eh?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:08:00 -
[10]
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06
Originally by: Borasao
Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand,
Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school.
Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water...
Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and *boom* you got it.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:13:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 16:25:29
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't.
Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer.
90% are simply "I've trained lasers and I'm mad the ship doesn't have lasers. It's not 'true' Amarr. All Amarr ships are worthless now that these six were changed.". 5% are things along the lines of "HAM missles don't have enough range to really be effective". and 4% are "HAMs don't make sense on the Damnation". and 1% are folks mistakingly thinking that these changes are the "Amarr Boost" and not simply the "Khanid Unsuckification"
9% have actual arguments as to why the changes aren't adequate (not necessarily bad, just not far enough). 1% are just... off in their own world. And the other 90% is whine.
Hopefully, HAM missiles will get a slight adjustment in addition (hopefully in speed to increase the range to around 10-12k without skills so that they'll hit 20-24k with maxed skills, IMO).
Different people are ****ed for different reasons. Some are angry at the ship changes, some are angry and the NOS changes. Some are angry at the whole enchilada. I'm angry about having two skill-intensive ships being rendered useless by an ill-thought out NOS nerf when several other more viable options exist.
The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different...
80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:17:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Asterixm "The other 90% is whine"
Amarr is the only race who is unable to npc everywhere because of laser damages
---> nothing done for it.
You fall into that 1%.
Quote:
Switching laser for missiles on half of t2 amarr ship
---> What about changing raven missile slot for laser slot ? yeahh i think the raven is overpowered for npcing, do it and you will see what "whining" means because nothing whine more than a carebear army. This is totaly same things than switching laser for milles.
What has that got to do with the Khanid ships currently sucking and these changes are to make them more useful to more people?
Quote: Powergrid issue, still so few powergrid on amarr ship, harder difficulties to fit if we change nos for neutra ....
---> Nothing done for it.
1%
Quote: Before this patch was able to fly all amarr ship fully t2 fitted, now i can only fly half of them and i'm not talking about curse/pillgrim nerf.
But caldari would be happy they just won new ships.
Some reasons to be angry, isn't it ?
Only for those who are stuck in a rut, IMO. I can't fly Amarr BS but I can fly everything else (Absolution and Damnation included) besides the interdictor that's a combat ship and I can't wait for the new Khanid designs to go live. I've not stuck myself in a rut or pigeonholed (handicapped) myself by declaring that I will train nothing other than lasers. That's a self imposed limitation and gets no sympathy from me, sorry.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:29:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rylai
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06
Originally by: Borasao
Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand,
Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school.
Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water...
Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and *boom* you got it.
hurr hurr
Osmosis is, by definition, the diffusion of water
If you're going to nerf nos...nerf amount or do the sig radius...don't make it useless
Yes, by definition it is about water but the concept is very similar, as explained. An area of high free electron density is connected to an area of low free electron density... what do you think will happen? The low density will be sucked up by the high density? No... current will flow from the higher charge area to the lower charge area (positive charge terminal to ground terminal) just like it works in your iPod when you connect the battery to a circuit. Since ground is "zero", the battery will eventually even out with the other terminal and both terminals will be equal with each other in charge. See also: connecting batteries in parallel.
NOS isn't useless as has been discussed over and over. It does eliminate some use of it but it isn't completely useless, particularly for laser boats that routinely are low on cap. If you're up against a target that has cap, they work exactly as they did before. If your target is also a cap sucker, then you're both in trouble or, if your target doesn't need cap but the pilot is smart enough to dump their cap, you're in trouble. You just have to think a little bit more, is all... it's no longer a solopwnmobile.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:31:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Originally by: Borasao
The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different...
80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in.
Well, I haven't been going through these pages with a calculator trying to do the math, but I fall into the latter category: I'm ****ed that my Pilgrim is going to become completely useless. It takes finesse to fly, and is far from a "wtfpwnmobile," but for my purposes it works as intended. The NOS nerf completely removes the point of the Pilgrim even being in the game, along with my 1.2 million skill points I sunk into the damn thing (before Recon Ships).
Yup... Pilgrim is in a world of hurt, I agree. Faction ships need their bonuses to apply to both NOS and NEUT.
Khanid changes are nice. Curse is still reasonably nice and usable (in fact, it's just like it was before really... you just have to not be afk is all).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:46:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 18:46:59
Originally by: Matroshka Diffusion
Yup. Thanks :) For an electrical model, it can be easily modeled as a two batteries connected in parallel with a diode and a load between the two positive terminals.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:10:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Wyliee <<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>>
please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna.
something i dont think ccp have even thought about.
if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target..
then noz are going to be less effective for me?
if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place....
then noz are going to be great for me?
so nerf high skills and boost low skills?
or have i got this completely wrong?
That's one way to look at it... the other is to know you're going to have more cap so burn more of it to compensate (meaning you'll be doing more stuff). For example, turn your armor rep on before you really need it to bleed off just a little more. Cycle a webber/scram on a target even if you don't need to. Enter the fight really low by onlining an offlined module. There are plenty ways to bleed off a little cap.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:14:00 -
[17]
Quote: Hello? You still fail to understand the problem.
You sit at 30% cap. Which you NEED to keep to keep your scram and EW up. So by which magical means will you stop them from getting from lets say 20% to 30% cap again? Nos does not work. And you have no free cap for neuts.
Those-tactics-do-no-work-for-1v1. What is so difficult to understand there?
If you are at 30% and your target is at 20%, it is going to NOS you. Ignoring that... why not plan ahead and charge up to 35% (instead of 30%) so you can use that neut and drop back down to 25% to 30%?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:15:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 21:18:48
Quote: 3) Absolution..DOA No DPS...who would want to fly one? Total nerf of one of the more fun to fly command ships.
There was no change to the Absolution at all. You might mean 'Damnation'.
Quote: 1) Malediction is dead. Only close range means it HAS to be ultra fast and close before long range Caldari, Gal and Min ships.
I have also noticed a trend in fleet type engagments to include 1 or 2 Smart Bomb BS's to take out drones and tacklers. Malediction does not have a way to avoid these ships and add DPS to the engagement.
Must you add DPS to the engagement? I fly a Malediction now with only launchers on it as it is to save cap for other things. I don't feel the need to always even be doing DPS at all. You can tackle just fine without firing any high slot module at all. DPS on the Malediction is just icing on the cake and the Mk II adds even more icing.
Quote: 2) Heretic with Missiles or Med Beams could drop a bubble and then orbit at range and add DPS. Now it is in the same boat as Malediction. I see the Heretic becoming a ultra cheap interdictor with 2 Bubble launchers and dropping all weapon systems.
Heh... for the previous lines about being worried about not contributing DPS... this doesn't make sense. The Heretic should be able to do decent DPS at a decent range without using *any* cap at all or worrying about tracking *plus* the rocket launchers use small amounts of grid. It doesn't make sense not to put rocket launchers on it unless you just don't have the skills... and then that's OK too because you can still perform the main task which is drop bubbles.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:20:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 01/08/2007 21:12:28 No reply from ccp, may be they forgot about us?
They usually don't reply in these... they just watch the turmoil.
Quote: I've found one positive moment - i don't care about loosing my curse, soon it will be useless string in market... nos will be to.
Can I have it? I'll give you 10m isk for it... since it's worthless, you'll be making out like a bandit!
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:24:00 -
[20]
Quote: Like I've said before and I'll say it again - You'll be lucky if you find anyone flying Damnations after this patch..
Can I has ur Damnation? It's not like it can't give gang bonuses anymore.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: RossP Zoyka I don't think that the "curses and pilgrims will have kind of a hard time taking out Battleships 1v1 after the NOS nerf" is a valid argument against the NOS nerf.
If anything it is a reaffirmation that they are doing something right. The fact that a Curse still can take out most BS 1v1 even after the nerf is actually pretty humorous.
Also, the argument that "I now have to train missles to fly sweet Khanid ships! That's awful!" is not a good argument against that change either. Oh well, don't train up the skills. If you could fly the Khanid ships well before the patch, then you can fly the other T2s better anyways.
Now the Khanid are finally different enough to be more effective.
Well said... those who can fly Sacrileges well now can, even now, fly Zealots well (and it's even a better ship). Same for all the rest. If you don't want to train missiles, don't. I, for one, welcome the new Khanid ships. I think they'll be fun to pilot.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 13:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: bellator militaris
I'm sure glad I trained up for the last 45 days to get T2 Lasers for my Sacrilege, now I can train up for Stupid Missiles.
Your T2 Lasers don't work on the Zealot? I haven't seen a "Medium Energy Turret Specialization (Sacrilege)" skill book anywhere. Where did you find it and how much did it cost?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 13:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Rikeka Edited by: Rikeka on 02/08/2007 13:43:28 Now Amarr have to train Missiles too? We had to train Drones to fly the only good Amarr ship, now we have to train Missiles like an ordinary Caldari?
Thanks for the months and months wasted training Turrets!
I mean, now we are FORCED to train again for ships we could already fly well!
Be serious and admit it, you hate us, Amarrians!
No.... you aren't required to fly any Khanid (Mk II) ships. You are still free to never train missiles of any kind and continue to fly the Crusader, the Retribution, the Zealot, and the Absolution as good as you ever did (which were the ones with turret bonuses anyway) because no change was made to them *at all*.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 13:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Sal Tuskin I have about enough of this single frig againsts battleship debate HISTORY LESSON: in ww2 would a frig attack a battleship solo hell no, would the bs even fire its main guns 16in on us bs, no the ww2 bs had 10 5in guns on each side to swat those frigs now if 10 frigs attacked a bs thats a different story
present day we dont have bs we have missile crusiers and frig they dont even see each other so doest work in todays world
fast forward to eve should a single frig be able to lock down a bs, hell no that frig shouldnt last 4 sec with the bs guns on it, now but 10 frigs now we are talking.
is the nos fix right or wrong there are better ways of doing it but CCP is like all other game companys 95% of there dev dont play the game so they have no clue of how to fix ****. All i can say is a single frig should stand no chance against a bs
out
And it still doesn't... just fit a NEUT (which is even more devastating against a frigate than the NOS).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 14:02:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 14:02:56
Originally by: William DeMeo Everyone is talking about small ships getting instadrained by nos's and they thus can't tackle. Well, um. How the hell else can you fend off a crow that does 15km/s? Interceptors can go insanely fast already and are basically impossible to kill unless they lag out or just plain suck. I think most people don't realise that for some people (Me) nos is your primary weapon. I don't fit any guns I fly with drones and nos, and the nos's I fit take just as much pg as any gun and they don't even do any damage. So I do **** dps, my dps can be killed (since I use drones)and I mean, come on. Learn to micromanage your cap goddamnit, thats a very importent skill especially when you're flying BS's. Wait until a nos cycle has gone by, boost and rep, wait again. I mean, if you're fighting a domi for the love of god use your brain and pop the damn drones. Same with curse, while they're hard to kill you can survive them if you keep your cool and pop those drones. It's not that hard if you think and actually learn how to fly your ship.
People sucking and then whining on the forums is destroying this game. It's sad to see CCP listening to them. Sure, nos is hard to fight. But so is any other equal size ship. People just don't realise how simple it is to counter nos and have your tank running for a long time, if you're caldari or minmatar you're even more lucky since you'll be doing some very nice dps without any cap what so ever. I've said it before I'm sure, but goddamnit people, l2p and stop whining. I'm sure people will be whining about nos after this patch as well, because it'll be alot more imbalanced and I can certainly see a passive drake fit a nos and then just let themselves run out of cap and thus drain their active tanked enemy straight out of cap.
Passive tanks are hard to fight Nos is hard to fight speed is hard to fight damps are hard to fight. And last but not least damage is hard to fight.
But it's not impossible if you got some brain power, use your brain and I'm sure you all will be alot more effective vs. nos boats.
Tbh CCP should listen less to the whiners as well, they're making the game less diverse and more static with every patch because people just can't learn how to beat certain setups. Kinda sad to see nos boats go, not that CCP will change it back but one can always hope. Next ten months I guess I'll have to train blaster skills (just to have blasters removed cuz they do sooo much damage it's impossible to tank!!111).
**** it.
This post is an amazing example of irony... or sarcasm... i can't really tell which because it is *that* amazing!
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 15:43:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:43:07
Originally by: William DeMeo
Originally by: Fager
Originally by: William DeMeo Edited by: William DeMeo on 02/08/2007 14:53:05 No what you don't realise is, neuts will NOT be balanced. It drains you as much as your enemy and if you had actually flown a nos ship ever you would realise that it won't work. That's like using 2000 pg to nerf your own cap while your enemy can still deal just as much damage and you both get as drained. Neutralizers are never used because they are complete and utter bull****.
My point is, damn guys. The game is fine, fix the lag and desynchs instead of this ****.
Neutralizers drains your enemies more then you. And if ppl will use NOS and Neutralizers somewhat equially much then id say they are balanced.
And as ive prevously said CAPwarfare boats(bloodraiders/Amarr recons mainly) might need looking into with fittings for Neutralizers or maybe neutralizers needs lowered fittings. CCP has also said they will look into this to balance it.
I do NOT consider droneboats CAPwarfare specialists. Droneboats will sacrifice cap for either DMG or CAPwarfare. Or improve your cap hungry uber tank with the easier fitted NOS. NOSdomi PPL have already stated the NEUTdomis are possible.
Neutdomi's are not possible and it's obvious you haven't flown one. How will you set it up? Cargo expanders and dual cap injectors or what? It'll suck cuz neuts take away like 5% less cap from you then from your enemy and at the same time nerfs a slot you can have dps in. Fly nosboats before you tell people how easy it'll be to refit them with energy neuts. Might be a slim chance the curse can be "somewhat" effective with 1 neut, but fact remains it's an insanely stupid and heavy nerf to an entire class of ships and a fighting style and CCP should get their act together and stop listening to whiny carebears that can't fight for ****.
The fact there are "nosboats" should be a huge sign that something is wrong... a module that isn't a weapon as has no downsides whatsoever being used to replace slots on a ship with weapon bonuses is certainly "odd" if nothing else.
As far as a NeutDomi not being possible, perhaps the idea that a Domi sitting with a full cap or running dual reps continuously while it trains 6x NOS on a ship and keeping it at zero cap is the problem in itself. Once you let go of that idea, it makes a lot of sense that destroying someone else's cap should not come for free... much less destroying someone else's cap and improving your own at the same time. Why not make blasters add 10 cap every time you fired them?
The first step to relieving the addiction of afk pvp is to realize that the NOS changes are mostly just making you sit at the keyboard to pvp. You have to watch your cap a little more, use modules in highs other than NOS, and actually think a little bit.
It's actually a fairly interesting solution... it really does touch every problem of NOS while not leaving any out... small ships aren't instantly neutralized by NOS while leaving large ships completely vulnerable (the sig radius solution has this problem). The 'dedicated slots' solution doesn't fix the fact that many ships fit a single NOS just for free small ship neutralization (a heavy NOS will still render that interceptor useless). The stacking penalty doesn't either (a single heavy NOS will still zap that interceptor).
That being said, the Pilgrim is rather severely hit but the dev post said they would look at it. A Pilgrim 'fix' along with the faction ships fix (add neut bonus) should clear out most problems.
The real downside is that all the folks who lose their afk pvp ships have to L2P again and they're upset.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 15:48:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above:
The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents. There are people (in the other thread) who admit to flying Dominix and have no hybrid skills whatsoever... simply trained for a DomiNOS (seriously... if this isn't huge fotw specialization, what is?) because of NOS+Drones being so strong.
*That* being said, there are Curse/Pilgrim pilots who super invested (billions of isk) to be able to solo kill battleships (seriously though... solo kill a battleship in a recon?) and those folks are probably hurt the most. The rest of the easy mode fotw players will just adapt by switching to the next fotw after all is said and done and they are dragged forward with the rest of us. On second thought... many of these folks have already said that they've adapted and are still pretty good against their intended prey (as tested on SiSi) and it doesn't hurt them quite as much as they thought (except in the case of the Pilgrim).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:39:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hammar Wolf
Originally by: Borasao Edited by: Borasao on 02/08/2007 15:50:16 Continued from above:
The main ones complaining are those who trained Amarr Recon (or even cross trained them) because they were solo fotw wtfpwn afk pvp easy mode boats against most opponents.
Cannot begin to explain how much is wrong with that comment, but feel free to read up as it has been done so repeatedly. Being an Amarr recon pilot I will take the insult as intended - yes it was very easy to become good in the pilgrim and the curse and they are total afk solo boats. So easy you should do it yourself and check it out before speaking on this topic again because you have absolutely no idea how difficult it is to fly amarr and to kill a BS with an Amarr recon - those who can do it deserve it.
You didn't read far enough... I commented specifically on those who have gone pretty far in their training/implantes/etc. to specifically be able to kill battleships.
And... I am able to fly Amarr Recons myself (and have a few kills in both the Curse and the Pilgrim, though not solo against a BS).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:49:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Semkhet Edited by: Semkhet on 02/08/2007 16:03:25 In your case, something you are missing is that NOS was a tool which could be used without having to follow an extensive skill tree for months. As such, it is one of the things which balanced the game between noobs and vets.
Ignoring any nerf proposals currently on, or off, the table, isn't this somewhat unbalanced as it is then? If a single module means a 3M SP character is 'balanced' against your 40M SP character, what does that mean when the same module is then also in the hands of the 40M SP player? Plus, doesn't that bother you that a 3M SP character with little experience in the game can make your 40M SP and years of experience pretty much worthless? Wouldn't it also mean that it's *much* more desirable for *anyone* to just NOS it up since not only does it balance you at low SP against high SP characters but will continue to 'increase your balance' against everyone more and more? What's the point of training past 3M SP then?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Crym Synistar
Any BS that hangs out in deep space when a recon tackler is present deserves to die. Cause even if it is a solo ship...you don't really know that, and there could be 8 others waiting on the oppisite side of a gate. In which case you still deserve to die for sticking around.
Erm... OK? To repeat my other post... there are those who have trained Amarr Recons because with the current NOS mechanics, they are easy mode afk killers. Then there are those who have invested massive amounts of time and isk into their Amarr Recons and can kill BS because of it. The former are hit pretty hard because they're just FOTW players anyway... they'll gripe and move on to the next FOTW after threatening to quit, to recycle their ships, demand skill refunds, etc. (can I have your stuff?) The latter have been hit somewhat, but I've seen a number of them post that solo killing BS is still possible on SiSi with the proposed NOS mechanics and are smart enough to adapt even though NOS is nerfed somewhat.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:58:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Feng Schui Can i have all my skillpoints that I trained up for using a pilgrim be switched into my raven / producion skills?
We haven't seen what fixes the dev has said they're looking into for the (known issues with the) Pilgrim regarding the NOS changes. In the worst case if they go live as-is, fly a Curse or switch to another FOTW.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 17:12:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Feng Schui
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Feng Schui Can i have all my skillpoints that I trained up for using a pilgrim be switched into my raven / producion skills?
We haven't seen what fixes the dev has said they're looking into for the (known issues with the) Pilgrim regarding the NOS changes. In the worst case if they go live as-is, fly a Curse or switch to another FOTW.
I am a Pilgrim pilot... there will be no other ship.
Then why would you want to switch your skills into a Raven
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 18:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Feng Schui
so, now.. pvp is out of the question for me ... can't see myself playing eve for much longer.
Can I have your stuff?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 18:22:00 -
[34]
Originally by: William DeMeo Sorry for double post (if this is one) but exactly, I completely agree with you man. That's what's happening to EVE and it SUCKS. If anyone finds an overpowered or unbalanced setup it gets nerfed.
T,FTFY
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 18:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Crym Synistar just getting frustraiting that each ship class ive switched to gets nerfed in some way.
I'm guilty of this myself... but it is the way things go when you always try to fly the FOTM.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.02 20:58:00 -
[36]
Originally by: General Xenophon Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:31:11 Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:27:52 Edited by: General Xenophon on 02/08/2007 20:26:21 I am against this nos nerf! Maybe if you knew how to balance the game to begin with you wouldn't have to nerf things...
What will CCP deem necessary to nerf next?
Ridiculous!!!
You've never played an MMO before, I take it.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 14:04:00 -
[37]
Originally by: William DeMeo Hey, dumbass. An inty pilot with an IQ of 2 will never allow themselves to get into web range since, YES, they do die to webs. But they also do 5km/s. So all you can do with damps is make inty's run away, not kill it. So I said, damps do not kill inty's, do they now?
Also, neuts do exactly the same thing as nos but less well. So in this particular case, I will count them as nos's as they are indeed effective for inty killing (though they suck for everything else)
Thanks for not thinking yourself and reading my post. bai.
Exactly... so a damped interceptor pilot (or any way you can make it run away) can't scramble you and hold you down while his buddies arrive. You warp off to safety. That is a 'win' for you. You don't have to blow a ship up to win... just neutralize it and/or drive it off is plenty sufficient much of the time (when solo particularly).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:05:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 15:12:48 Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 15:06:48
Originally by: Baynex WARNING LOGIC PRESENT BELOW THIS LINE! --------------------------------------------- Nos is a weapon, make it use a hardpoint!
Make it a turret? Dominix still fits a rack of them. Make it a launcher? We get even more whining than this nerf. Make it a new type of weapon hardpoint? We have no idea how much of a code change and database change this will introduce and doesn't even address some of the core concerns (one of which is making interceptor pilots' life hard) because the NOS mechanism itself is unchanged.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 15:58:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Borasao on 03/08/2007 16:00:26
Originally by: Hellspawn01
Care to explain whats so good about the change?
a) Interceptor pilots could function against NOS. To kill an interceptor, you have to fit NEUT which you'll have to use at a cost (no longer free to be immune from intercteptors) b) Killing someone's cap completely would no longer be "free". You have to use your own cap to completely kill a target's cap. c) It nerfs the FOTM setups like DomiNOS. To achieve the same thing fit NEUTs but it will make the overall ship weaker (no longer able to fit super strong tank in addition to killing target's cap) d) FOTM Curse setups would not be as good. You actually have to think and work a little to remain strong with that ship. No more F1-F5, launch drones, /afk, sammich, return to loot wreck... if you see a Curse when you're in a BS, it may actually be either really dangerous because the pilot is good or piloted by a FOTM pilot and you can kill him. Even FOTM pilots will still be deadly to almost anything smaller than a BS. It also brings its soloability more in line with other recon ships. FOTM pilots will obviously be hit hardest by the NOS nerf (and will whine the loudest). e) Cap unstable setups (Megathrons use these a lot and almost all Amarr BS setups) would have some defense against NOS since their cap is always pretty low. Those setups will still benefit from fitting a NOS but if you want to kill the cap of someone in that setup, you have to fit a NEUT. f) "Cap warfare" actually has meaning... you have to fight it like a battle instead of F1-Fx, /afk g) NOS is still viable defensively (and for free other than fittings) to help maintain your cap but is no longer an offensive weapon. NEUT is the offensive weapon (as it always had been).
How about those to start with?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ashhtar if you change that what i do ??
Continue flying the turret ships just as good as you ever did? (Crusader, Retribution, Zealot, Absolution)
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Hellspawn01 But what about the pve part?
Yeah... that's a big question that wasn't even touched in the Dev response. I know at one time I used NOS in PvE a bit (but don't anymore) and it definitely made a difference. If I were to guess, I think they'll say that it won't change for NOS on NPC ships but who knows.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:44:00 -
[42]
Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing.
the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful.
And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are *still* immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT *at all*.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Vampire Lord
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: zero2espect every day i'm going to post the same thing.
the only way to fix the problem is to create NOS SLOTS. make the USELESS Utility Slots on Amarr useful.
And others will keep posting every day that your solution does not address one (among several) of the key issues with a heavy NOS which is that it is free immunity from interceptors and it makes interceptors against large ships almost useless. If you have a NOS slot, you are *still* immune because simply making a dedicated NOS slot does not change the way the NOS works (against interceptors). Unless you're saying that you'd completely remove the ability for many ships to fit NOS at all... and that would be a little more painful than the currently proposed changes... just wait until you hear the whining when Dominix (and whoever else) pilots can't fit a NOS/NEUT *at all*.
If most people had a brain cell they would figure a way around it. That's the problem with eve now. People like you cry because your ship can't deal with one aspect yet it's nearly impossible for other class ships to catch an kill you. I vote for STFU an stop crying. How about you cry about something that really matters like lag???
PS: I used to enjoy telling people adapt or die. Now I'll have to tell them go to the forums an cry an the DEV's will change it.
This is funny, because it's what I've been saying all along... the people who can figure stuff out have already worked with the proposed changes and figured out how to deal with it. There are a few suggestions (faction ships need the NEUT bonus as well) and one notable breakage (Pilgrim).
I already work around it. I don't have a problem with the NOS now or with the proposed changes. I can work with it either way. Who exactly needs to figure stuff out?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.04 02:36:00 -
[44]
Originally by: torN Deception The proposed NOS changes do nothing to change the dangers of larger energy warfare modules to tacklers. A heavy neut is even more effective at taking out an inty or frigate trying to tackle a battleship.
Yup... you are 100% correct. The main difference is that when you use NOS, it's even better than free... you gain cap by damaging your target's cap. Would you expect your hybrid blasters to heal your armor when you shot at a target and damaged the target's armor?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.04 21:58:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 04/08/2007 11:46:21 You have only your opinion, and i have facts and my practice! I'll say again: 1)without nosfs, curse will be useless. 2) With nosfs working like was said in dev blog curse will be useless.
It will be beble to destroyed even with tech 1 cruiser
Maybe useless for you, but there have been a number of Curse pilots who have reported that they have adapted and, while they have to be more careful and better pilots, they can still use their Curse very effectively. Obviously, not everyone (particularly those who do nothing but fit cookie-cutter setups) will be able to cope and will have to stop using the Curse because it will be useless to them with the current cookie-cutter setups.
The Pilgrim, however, has been hurt too bad and needs fixes. The Dev post said they are looking into it.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Long Fang
Originally by: Shadowsword
A standard Curse will remain a superb EW/general support platform, to have around in small gangs or fleets
Except now it can't fill its role as its not getting any boost to its NOS which is the entire point of the ship. As an EW boat it is only effective against turrets which many ships don't use, as an EW platform it is surpassed by both the Arazu and Rook which can effect ALL ships.
If you read really close and carefully, you'll see the bonus is to both NOS and NEUTs... not just NOS... and, last time I looked, NEUTs work against ALL ships.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:01:00 -
[47]
Originally by: IPyric yep your correct. to use NOS now your better of with no CAP Skills and we cant untrain them :/
Reading, FTL... the Dev post has already said they are looking into this.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.04 22:11:00 -
[48]
Quote: Exatly. I braek amarr recon training and train something else
Good... we don't need another FOTM pilot flying a solopwnmobile
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.06 19:46:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Sasaki Dita Edited by: Sasaki Dita on 06/08/2007 14:36:34 This patch will amplify the gap between amarr and the other races even more. Amarr is, will be, by far the worst race to play with. Just compare the Heretic with Sabre, the Heretic is useless... I expected some nice new features for this race, but instead is a nerf. Disapointed.
Funny... because a few posts back there's a poster that was very pleased with the changes saying they were much more for the better. Also, the Sacrilege changes seem to be really nice, unless, of course, you either have no missile skills, are too hardheaded to train missile skills, or both.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.07 12:19:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jacknife Sanguinarius And then I ended up mostly using mostly Khanid ships for one reason or another. :(
Heh... probably the #1 reason was because they were cheaper than the non-Khanid ships and that's because they generally aren't that good... but if you're in a gang, you don't need to be the best... just able to fit some weapons, tackle, and/or EW to contribute.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.07 12:28:00 -
[51]
Quote: still no posts from the ccp fans about setups i see.
There's already a Curse Fitting Thread w.r.t. NOS changes in Ships and Modules (where it belongs) with a number of replies already.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.07 12:30:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Akano The nosferatu is a HUGE pilgrim nerf (and curse nerf, but it needed it). I think that nosferatu cannot be revised without dealing with this ship at the same time, please do some tests !
Yes... already posted a number of times and already addressed by the Dev post (they're going to look into it) some number of pages back.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.07 12:34:00 -
[53]
Quote: 3. using that combo nos/neuts against minmatar or caldary ships, you will be like 2 time looser: first you will loose some cap(your cap) to (your)neuts; second, you will lose dmg( cose he will just empty his cap, so your noses will be useles, and if your lasers don't use some sort of fuell... will be useles too;and if you don't get the ideea, let me explain- he will just use pasive tank, one med/large neut or nos, boosters for reparer; he will just have full dps and you will stay and admire your shiny ghedon with a brand new neut/nos combo being raped by one bad ugly typhoon... but hey, you can allways use drones or just run away cose his scrambler will be "incapacitated"...
So you mean you'll have to actually pick your targets instead of F1-F5, launch drones, /afk fixin a sammich, come back and loot the wreck now? I don't think many players would have a problem with that.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.07 13:59:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Akano
Well ... thanks. Looks like i have missed it ! Do you know where the pilgrim's part is ?
Unfortunately, no more concrete information has been given by the Devs yet other than "they're looking at it"... As a Curse/Pilgrim pilot myself, I'm curious as well. I think the faction ships (Bhaal/etc) are pretty clear to have the bonus applied to neuts as well as nos and the Curse looks to be only a little weakened (still strong and viable according to numerous Curse pilots playing around on test) so not much there. I think everyone is waiting on the Pilgrim information.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.14 13:09:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Bellac
I dont see the logic behind having a really big slow ship, and giving it a bonus to missiles with a 14km range. OK it can withstand the pounding, but surely will never be able to keep in range of any target long enough to do any sustained damage.
No tacklers in your gang to hold the target down for you? It's a "fleet" command ship, after all
Quote: And as for reducing the powergrid by 200 - well that just makes it difficult to fit 3 gang modules if thats the way you want to go with your setup.
Yup... fitting 3x gang modules on the current Damnation makes me compromise a lot... dropping the grid is going to make it tough.
The devs said they were looking into things a while back... it would be nice to hear what they've found and any new ideas they may have, modified changes, etc.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:23:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Wyliee Khanid ships = stop making us use ham's. let us get bonuses to heavy missiles too. (i get the feeling that ccp brought in ham's no one liked them so they are going to try to make some use for them by forceing them on amarr pilots.)
You do realize that if they open the bonus up for HML and HAML, the damage bonus will be limited to EM only, right? The HAML only bonus (as it is currently proposed) is a bonus to *all* damage types, which is kind of nice and should be obvious as to why. Plus, the dev post said that they'd revisit HAMs at some point to make them 'better' somehow.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.15 13:04:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nyxus Damnation cap use bonus changed to a +10% per lvl armor amount bonus.
Any changes to the other Khanid Mk II ships? That change is OK but I think the grid change and the HAM only bonus were the main complaints for the Damnation (not that I don't like the +10% armor amount bonus... it fits in line with the logistic ships, notably the Augoror).
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.16 18:04:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Lisento Slaven Did you guys say the Damnation now has a +10% armor HP bonus per level? You do realize how crazy the Navy Augoror can get with armor amounts (mine is at 21,000 HP as it is). I've seen some with 90,000 armor. Now the damnation which has plenty more grid etc. gets it?
That's going to be one sickening ship.
From someone else's post:
damnation
Battlecruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Heavy Assault Missile and Heavy Missile velocity and 5% bonus to all armor resistances per level
Command Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to armor hitpoints and 3% bonus to effectiveness of Armored Warfare Links per level
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:57:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Kldraina Seems like the game now needs a module for quickly dumping large amounts of cap (preferably into something useful). Smartbombs could do it, but they tend to not be useful.
Shield boosters, armor repairers, and MWD seem to be pretty good at that for me
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.17 12:59:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Kldraina It's occured to me that cap flux coils have more use now. Lower max cap means cap amount will drop to 30% fast. I imagine most will still prefer the cap power relays.
Yup. I agree with you... it looks like the Cap Flux modules may be useful for something other than reprocessing.
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Borasao
Ex Coelis Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.20 00:54:00 -
[61]
Lots of changes in SiSi... here's a thread that someone is trying to keep a running list: Link
HAM flight time increased, NEUT fittings the same as NOS of the same size. Every race has some changes to some ships.
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