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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Hammar Wolf
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:18:00 -
[781]
Originally by: Delnas Edited by: Delnas on 01/08/2007 13:12:02 Ouch. Logged on this morning, noticed I had 12 hours left till I could fly Amarr Recons. It was a very good moment. ^_^ Then the new guy in our corp broke the news that NOS has been utterly nerfed to hell. Imagines of useless Curses & Pilgrims filled my mind, all being trashed.
Went to the Dev Blog to see what the big mess is all about. Does not look all that bad. I'm not a pilot of a Curse yet, but it seems to me I can just run my MWD to kill my cap, as I'd be doing most of the time anyway, all the while killing there cap. Once I kill both our CAP, switch to a neut, hit my Cap Booster, and finish the job. Not a big deal, even if there are not other targets around to NOS after my primary goes down.
Not much of a nerf. Just an alternation.
Trust me, get the curse and fit it out with those ideas in mind and see how it goes...been Amarr recons for some time. Don't put rigs on it though because you will be selling it soon.
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:20:00 -
[782]
Originally by: Delnas Edited by: Delnas on 01/08/2007 13:12:02 Ouch. Logged on this morning, noticed I had 12 hours left till I could fly Amarr Recons. It was a very good moment. ^_^ Then the new guy in our corp broke the news that NOS has been utterly nerfed to hell. Imagines of useless Curses & Pilgrims filled my mind, all being trashed.
Went to the Dev Blog to see what the big mess is all about. Does not look all that bad. I'm not a pilot of a Curse yet, but it seems to me I can just run my MWD to kill my cap, as I'd be doing most of the time anyway, all the while killing there cap. Once I kill both our CAP, switch to a neut, hit my Cap Booster, and finish the job. Not a big deal, even if there are not other targets around to NOS after my primary goes down.
Not much of a nerf. Just an alternation.
That setup will work like magic. As long as you find a way to get more powergrid... and as long as no one shoots at you, forcing you to tank some damage.
If no one shoots at you, yeah, you're set.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:21:00 -
[783]
I've assembled a list of personal quotes in other threads to apply to this Dev watched Thread. They are about the Damnation.
Quote #1 I liked the flexibility the Damnation gives me. The Damnation gave me options, four Lasers, or four Heavy Missiles with three Armor warfares. With three high-slots already used, I had a choice, True Amarr Lasers, or Caldari Missiles, four of either or a mix. This is not the case any more.
Quote #2 (Interesting to see this has already been mentioned on the first page of this Thread) Someone mentioned the speed, that is true, a Damnation doesn't go very fast and with Heavy Assault Missiles you need to be in tight to be effective. I think at least let it be Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles if you simply MUST nerf it's Amarr origin.
Quote #3 You have to train Amarr skills to get this ship.. and there is NOT ONE Amarr bonus to them. All the ships leading up to a Damnation all have Lasers bonuses now you have to spend additional time learning a rather large skill set to be effective in a Damnation after a rather long time to get to fly one.
You thought Damnations where RARE now, after the "Newish" factor wears off after a couple of weeks the Damnation might as well be retired from service. No one is going train months for an Damnation, when you have the Vulture available in the same amount of time. And while you're training the Vulture all your Caldari ships along the way need Missiles to be effective.
Honestly this is the worse thing to happen, train a Amarr based ship only to turn around and train a weapons system that no other Amarr ship uses.. Might as well convert it to a Faction ship.
Quote #4 (From the heart) What I really feel was wasting time training is the Lasers skills. Just like every other Amarr player out there training laser skills to support your available ships is now wasted. Laser skills are just getting more the more tossed aside as half the Amarr fleet turns to Missile Boats.
It's pretty simple here, if you turn a Damnation into a short range missile boat why would anyone train for it? You can get a Vulture (Fleet Command Ship) in the same time.
Take a look at the specs for Vulture. 7 High 6 Med 4 Low 5 Launchers 5 Turret CPU 545 Power 1275
Ok so what?!? Well It can fit 3 Warfare Mods and it has a choice of going Hybrid Turrets or Missile Turrets. And it can fit Heavy Missiles
Damnation 7 High 4 Med 5 Low 4 Launchers (+1) 4 Turret (-2) CPU 440 Power 1510 (-210, 1300)
Who in EVE would want to fly a Damnation with those specs when looking at the Vulture side by side...
If you want to bring it out of the frozen waste land the Damnation is already in you should leave it the way it is and bump up the Launcher AND Turrets to +1 and give it Laser Bonuses instead of removing all sighs of Amarr origin.
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Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama! |
Amaldor Themodius
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:22:00 -
[784]
Wow.. i am so happy such a great turn out of feedback on this terrible nerf of amarr and NOS has attracted such a large response.. The only point missing now is a response from CCP.. are they even reading this forum.. do they have nothing to contribute to the topic.. Silence imho is a much worse response than a poor response... Come on CCP put urselves into the fray and lets hear your thoughts many good suggestions have been offered in these 28 pages dont we deserve a response ?? Personally i hope the nerf gets nerfed my gaming experience is better in this current environ and i dont fly dedicated PVP NOS boats or fly Amarr....
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:25:00 -
[785]
One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens.
I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too.
Yay. |
Agent Tarvits
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:30:00 -
[786]
NOS changes look good, but not the Khanid Changes, armor tanked Missile boats arent a good idea imo.
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Hammar Wolf
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:30:00 -
[787]
This patch simply wont work and if CCP attempts to implement it they will quickly see why. I am hopeful this thread wont disintegrate into pure *****ing but if thats what it takes for CCP to see their own idiocy then I'm signing on. It is one thing to give people the option of training additional skills to create more diverse setups, but its totally different to force them to do so - completely kill their skill training and ruin entire lines of ships that people own or have grown to love. I think CCP is going to see this thread explode very quickly with "input from the community" of ****ed of people.
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PhantomVyper
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:41:00 -
[788]
Originally by: Slade Bolgard One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens.
I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too.
Yay.
Strange then that I can't seem to find a single solo kill of yours involving a Pilgrim...
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:43:00 -
[789]
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Slade Bolgard One of the ironies, that someone commented on way back in the threat, is I primarily use my Pilgrim to kill Asia farmers in zero sec. Works pretty well for taking out PvE fitted Ravens.
I guess as long as the changes balance it out for everyone - Amarr loses, while Asia farmers win. I guess the noobs who cried for a nerf win too, because the price of ISK will probably go down too.
Yay.
Strange then that I can't seem to find a single solo kill of yours involving a Pilgrim...
Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it.
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IPyric
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:44:00 -
[790]
Maybe CCP can just keep everyone happy by letting amarr players that like these changes go on with them and the ones that dont, prolly most of us.. have our SP's put into another race like minmitar or gal.
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PhantomVyper
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:49:00 -
[791]
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it.
Not a problem, I'm bored at work so don't really have anything better to do atm.
So for some positive input, how exactly does this change affects your gang running ship then? Because most ppl complaining about the Curse / Pilgrim are doing so in regard to their solo abilities.
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IPyric
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:49:00 -
[792]
Originally by: Wizzkidy Well I have been messing about with the setups on the test server.
The Khanid Changes are just wrong
The range on those HAM's are SO POOR! Ok I have some skilling to do in missiles but WTF? there travel time is SO SHORT I have to be so close to my target. My Sac didn't last 5 minutes.
The dmg was poor too, yea alright I only have HAM lvl 2 atm but even then I cannot see this a ship I will use in the future, not when they have such short range its silly.
Thats why no one uses them :P they giving them to amarr cause caldari didnt want them :)
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:50:00 -
[793]
It's true - Hammar should name his Pilgrim "Farmerbane." He's the authority on anti-farmer Pilgrimages. |
Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:53:00 -
[794]
Originally by: Agent Tarvits NOS changes look good, but not the Khanid Changes, armor tanked Missile boats arent a good idea imo.
No? As minmatar, I would kill for a armor tanked missile ship. No tracking involved means you can use a extreme speed setup and still hit for full damage. Thats why the Vaga doesnt have many missile points - it would be overpowered.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:54:00 -
[795]
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Not that strange - I usually run with a 2-4 man crew when I'm on farmer duty. I'm pleased you spent the time looking, though. Grab me some coffee while you're at it.
Not a problem, I'm bored at work so don't really have anything better to do atm.
So for some positive input, how exactly does this change affects your gang running ship then? Because most ppl complaining about the Curse / Pilgrim are doing so in regard to their solo abilities.
Simple: The pilgrim is usually getting fired upon in a gang of 2-4 people. Most of the killing is done with 2 man squads, and sometimes it's a 1 on 1. Just the way it is sometimes.
The problem is that the pilgrim relies on the Nos to break the enemy's tank, since it has no guns. Under this new setup, with a combination of neutralizers and Nosses, the pilgrim will have next to no cap left over by the time it's able to break a tank.
This means that the pilgrim has virtually no way to run its own already modest tank in the midst of the fight, so it ends up being a battleship firing missiles against a tech 2 cruiser with hardly any armor, that can't rep. The pilgrim NEEDS to be able to run its modest tank.
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Wizzkidy
Demonic Retribution Pure.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:54:00 -
[796]
Edited by: Wizzkidy on 01/08/2007 13:54:49
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Originally by: Agent Tarvits NOS changes look good, but not the Khanid Changes, armor tanked Missile boats arent a good idea imo.
No? As minmatar, I would kill for a armor tanked missile ship. No tracking involved means you can use a extreme speed setup and still hit for full damage. Thats why the Vaga doesnt have many missile points - it would be overpowered.
Jim, The Sac won't last 5 minutes unless you ignore the bonus and put heavy missiles on it which even then its a poor craft and you will die cause your so slow. HAMS have terrible range its almost stupid
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PhantomVyper
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:55:00 -
[797]
Originally by: Hammar Wolf
The CPU killboard is new. But keep trolling you might find our forums and keep posting there in case this thread dies. Check my pilgrim kills while you're out there - I also post here as Bad Liz and I'd love to meed someone here who kills more per day in a Pilgrim than I do.
I'm not trolling I'm trying to get you guys to post some reasonable coments on how this changes really are that bad for the Curse / Pilgrim.
So I extend the question I just made to the alliance mate to you: how does this change affects your gang going Pilgrim?
You also mentioned as Bad Liz that you had tested the changes on Sisi. How badly did it wen't? What ships where you able to kill before that you can't kill now? What wen't wrong in those fights? What kind of weaknesses did you find in your setup that you think can't be overcome with a diferent setup?
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N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:56:00 -
[798]
Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 13:55:50
Originally by: Falun Assad
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 12:06:09 Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 11:33:23
Current NOS change on SISI based on cap % difference is good. This % of recharge idea is a LOT BETTER, and I already had ideas about making NOS based on recharge rates.
Lets say the mega regens at a peak of 20 cap/sec and compare the two systems:
OLD NOS: First Nos takes 8.3 Cap/s : mega has 11.7 Cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 16.6 Cap/s : mega has 3.4 Cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 24.9 Cap/s : mega has -4.9 Cap/s regen.
Its the unstacked cap killing properties of nos that are the biggest issue, especially Large NOS vs frigs.
NEW NOS: Im going to say new nos takes 40% of regen. First Nos takes 0.4*20 = 8 Cap/s : mega has 12 cap/s regen. Second Nos takes 0.4*12 = 4.8 Cap/s : mega has 7.2 cap/s regen. Third Nos takes 0.4*7.2 = 2.88 cap/s : mega has 4.32 cap/s regen. TOTAL Nossed: 15.68 Cap/s leaving the mega with 4.32 cap/s
So we result in one NOS behaiving exactly the same as before, adding a second gives a severe stacking penalty, but its good enough to halt the majority of regen, while giving the nosser a nice cap boost to sustain tank and whatnot, adding a third nos onto one target is pretty fruitless.
In terms of big NOS vs Small ships, you're only taking the cap regenerated and not the reserves, so a small ship can't be zapped in one or two cycles of a nos.
Issues
Small ships vs Big ships will need some sort of limit on how much energy NOS can steal, because if Small NOS take 40% of a Battleships regen then thats a huge amount of cap. But I dont think you can say small nos only takes 10% because then thats useless against other frigs.
In order to fix this problem we simply take the transfer amount from before and use that as a MAX Cap/s transfer figure. In this way Frigates using Small Nosferatu I can only take a maximum of 2.6 Cap/s, no matter what ship they attack.
What if the mega is on 100% cap? I get 40% of 0 regen!
Fit a neut/make him activate some mods, pull his cap down until you think it is around 30% and then switch to nos, thus adding a tactical element to Neut/NOS combo's. Ideally you want to get someone at 30% with your nos because this is where maximum regen is achieved.
EDIT: Made a big mistake on my maths - fixed. EDIT: Added some more of that maths stuff. EDIT: Added answers to possible issues, formatting.
This is a nice and very elegant approach, because: a.: you have to use neuts to kill the targets cap b.: a heavily nossed ship can still survive for quite some time (cap booster) c.: it doesnt break dedicated NOS ships
Excellent! Much better than what CCP has in mind.
Lets just hope someone from CCP is reading this epic thread and flags the idea up for consideration. *Prays*
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NOS change based on %regen |
IPyric
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:59:00 -
[799]
indeed lets hope they come to their sences
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Olaf Rasmussen
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:01:00 -
[800]
Great changes! Really good boost to Amarr and blasterboats.
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Hammar Wolf
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:04:00 -
[801]
Originally by: PhantomVyper
Originally by: Hammar Wolf
The CPU killboard is new. But keep trolling you might find our forums and keep posting there in case this thread dies. Check my pilgrim kills while you're out there - I also post here as Bad Liz and I'd love to meed someone here who kills more per day in a Pilgrim than I do.
I'm not trolling I'm trying to get you guys to post some reasonable coments on how this changes really are that bad for the Curse / Pilgrim.
So I extend the question I just made to the alliance mate to you: how does this change affects your gang going Pilgrim?
You also mentioned as Bad Liz that you had tested the changes on Sisi. How badly did it wen't? What ships where you able to kill before that you can't kill now? What wen't wrong in those fights? What kind of weaknesses did you find in your setup that you think can't be overcome with a diferent setup?
Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death.
Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly.
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aldarrin
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:05:00 -
[802]
on the bright side, Amarr players will finally be able to deal kinetic, explosive damage. Maybe the damnation will replace the nighthawk as the ultimate PVE ship.
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Bad Liz
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:07:00 -
[803]
There is also simply no way a pilgrim can have 2 NOS power a running neutralizer and an armor rep at the same time. Again, instant cap death.
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Hammar Wolf
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:08:00 -
[804]
Originally by: aldarrin on the bright side, Amarr players will finally be able to deal kinetic, explosive damage. Maybe the damnation will replace the nighthawk as the ultimate PVE ship.
With heavy assault missiles? I know where you're coming from because I have been there myself, most refer to its as happy fun drug land.
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Matroshka
Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:09:00 -
[805]
I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't. -------------
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:10:00 -
[806]
Originally by: Matroshka I love the Khanid changes. Honestly I don't understand how any Amarr characters don't.
Fortunately you have about 29 pages of posts to study for your answer. |
Elliminator
Amarr Dark and Light inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:11:00 -
[807]
i think the kanid mk 2 changes are stupid amarr is a laser based race not missiles now all amarr pilots hav to learn missile skills. we are putting or hav put alot of time in lasers to make them effective now we hav to train all over again to be able to use missiles/ use the ships effective like we did before
if i wanted a missile based race i would hav choosen the bloody caldari race. but i didnt and want to keep the lasers instead of the missiles as alot of amarr ppl will agree to i think
plz dont nerf the khanid mk2 ships Pod Or Be Podded.. |
Quilan Masaq
Caldari Combat Systems
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:12:00 -
[808]
Love the new Khanid ships, they fit nicely into a niche not usually explored. Short range missile brawlers, lovely jubbly.
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Maximus Caelum
Clan Eshin
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:12:00 -
[809]
W00T. I'm glad you're nerfing nos. I hate it. Go go cap guns.
But seriously: Dont do a Sony, listen to your players.
The stacking penalty idea sounds good. Coulnt you just add it in the missiles/guns limitations where you can have a max number on your ship?
my 2 cents.
Max
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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:14:00 -
[810]
Originally by: Maximus Caelum W00T. I'm glad you're nerfing nos. I hate it. Go go cap guns.
But seriously: Dont do a Sony, listen to your players.
The stacking penalty idea sounds good. Coulnt you just add it in the missiles/guns limitations where you can have a max number on your ship?
my 2 cents.
Max
Exactly - I have no problem with them tweaking Nos - adding diminishing returns, or whatever. As long as it's well-thought out and doesn't completely break a line of ships.
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