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Slade Bolgard
Caldari Debiloff's Vanguard Combined Planetary Union
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:25:00 -
[871]
Originally by: Borasao
The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different...
80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in.
Well, I haven't been going through these pages with a calculator trying to do the math, but I fall into the latter category: I'm ****ed that my Pilgrim is going to become completely useless. It takes finesse to fly, and is far from a "wtfpwnmobile," but for my purposes it works as intended. The NOS nerf completely removes the point of the Pilgrim even being in the game, along with my 1.2 million skill points I sunk into the damn thing (before Recon Ships).
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:29:00 -
[872]
Originally by: Skool Daze Do not bring this crap to tranquility.
NOS is good as it is, it just needs stacking nerf because people are equipping 4-5 of them on same ship. It should stacking nerf like all other modules like
1. 1.0 2. 0.8 3. 0.5 4. 0.2
so on.
About Khanid changes, the game didn't have an armor tanking missile ship, it's good to have few.
Doesn't fix the problem of BS nos being able to absolutely nuke a frigate's cap in short order. 1-2 heavy nos will still cap out a frig in 2-4 cycles, a cruiser in 4-8. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:29:00 -
[873]
Originally by: Rylai
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06
Originally by: Borasao
Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand,
Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school.
Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water...
Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and *boom* you got it.
hurr hurr
Osmosis is, by definition, the diffusion of water
If you're going to nerf nos...nerf amount or do the sig radius...don't make it useless
Yes, by definition it is about water but the concept is very similar, as explained. An area of high free electron density is connected to an area of low free electron density... what do you think will happen? The low density will be sucked up by the high density? No... current will flow from the higher charge area to the lower charge area (positive charge terminal to ground terminal) just like it works in your iPod when you connect the battery to a circuit. Since ground is "zero", the battery will eventually even out with the other terminal and both terminals will be equal with each other in charge. See also: connecting batteries in parallel.
NOS isn't useless as has been discussed over and over. It does eliminate some use of it but it isn't completely useless, particularly for laser boats that routinely are low on cap. If you're up against a target that has cap, they work exactly as they did before. If your target is also a cap sucker, then you're both in trouble or, if your target doesn't need cap but the pilot is smart enough to dump their cap, you're in trouble. You just have to think a little bit more, is all... it's no longer a solopwnmobile.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:31:00 -
[874]
Originally by: Slade Bolgard
Originally by: Borasao
The OP specifically mentions Khanid changes, not NOS changes. If the OP had mentioned NOS changes, the breakdown would have been different...
80% were people who trained Curse/Pilgrim because they were solopwnmobiles and are now mad at the change. 15% simply can't understand how to fly anything other than cookie cutter F1-F5 /afk pvp 5% are (legitimately, IMO) upset that the Pilgrim and some faction ships are screwed with these changes, but a change to the bonus from just NOS to NOS/NEUT will help those out but the Pilgrim is currently not salvagable in its current state and needs some serious help if these NOS changes go in.
Well, I haven't been going through these pages with a calculator trying to do the math, but I fall into the latter category: I'm ****ed that my Pilgrim is going to become completely useless. It takes finesse to fly, and is far from a "wtfpwnmobile," but for my purposes it works as intended. The NOS nerf completely removes the point of the Pilgrim even being in the game, along with my 1.2 million skill points I sunk into the damn thing (before Recon Ships).
Yup... Pilgrim is in a world of hurt, I agree. Faction ships need their bonuses to apply to both NOS and NEUT.
Khanid changes are nice. Curse is still reasonably nice and usable (in fact, it's just like it was before really... you just have to not be afk is all).
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Matroshka
Crimson Squall Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:34:00 -
[875]
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: Rylai
Originally by: Borasao
Originally by: N1fty Edited by: N1fty on 01/08/2007 16:12:06
Originally by: Borasao
Quote: I have read all 27 pages of this thread [bored at work the past couple of days] and while I think this NOS change will fix NOS, its not particularly elegant, its quite hard to understand,
Only to those who have failed/forgotten 3rd grade science. osmosis It never fails to amaze me what people think "they'll never need later in life" from school.
Thats fine if the capacitor is filled with water...
Hurr, hurr... it works similar in concept with many other things... including electricity... an area of high concentration when connected to an area of low concentration will cause a flow such that two areas are equal in concentration (current). Put a diode on the NOS ship's side to prevent its charge from flowing towards the target (for when its cap is higher than the target's cap so no current flows in that direction) and *boom* you got it.
hurr hurr
Osmosis is, by definition, the diffusion of water
If you're going to nerf nos...nerf amount or do the sig radius...don't make it useless
Yes, by definition it is about water but the concept is very similar, as explained. An area of high free electron density is connected to an area of low free electron density... what do you think will happen? The low density will be sucked up by the high density? No... current will flow from the higher charge area to the lower charge area (positive charge terminal to ground terminal) just like it works in your iPod when you connect the battery to a circuit. Since ground is "zero", the battery will eventually even out with the other terminal and both terminals will be equal with each other in charge. See also: connecting batteries in parallel.
NOS isn't useless as has been discussed over and over. It does eliminate some use of it but it isn't completely useless, particularly for laser boats that routinely are low on cap. If you're up against a target that has cap, they work exactly as they did before. If your target is also a cap sucker, then you're both in trouble or, if your target doesn't need cap but the pilot is smart enough to dump their cap, you're in trouble. You just have to think a little bit more, is all... it's no longer a solopwnmobile.
Diffusion -------------
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:46:00 -
[876]
Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 18:46:59
Originally by: Matroshka Diffusion
Yup. Thanks :) For an electrical model, it can be easily modeled as a two batteries connected in parallel with a diode and a load between the two positive terminals.
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Vampire Lord
World Order The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:00:00 -
[877]
There are a few ways to fix this problem without rewriting code. Make modifications to the mods that have some logical since. Like increasing the power grid upwards to match Neuts. Add rigs or mods the increase your resistance to NOS.. Option 1: NOS Increase the power grid NOS takes to be fitted. Upwards to almost match Neuts. This change alone fixes most of the problems with NOS.. As stated NOS is overpowered and has been. It's widely used an easy to fit. So you change the ease to fit. Forcing NOS tanks to lose a large Portion of their tank to be a NOS boat. While still allowing EVE.. The player controlled environment to remain controlled by players. Also add in a MOD an rig that increases NOS resistance. Rigs add 20% Resistance... Stacking Penalty Mods add 25% Resistance... Stacking Penalty By using this option you can tell the people who cry wolf about NOS to fit a resistance rig or mod on their ship. While at the same time limiting how many NOS can be fitted on your ship. Debuffing NOS all together without modifying what it does. Yes this option still means that some people will still use NOS boats but it will cost them and they have to worry about facing ships that are NOS resistance. T2 Ships Alongside with the Shield Resists bonus T2 ships get a 3-5% per lvl to NOS & Neut Resists. Changes that could be made with a good reason an yet again nurfing NOS but with good reason an logic behind it. This also allows T2 Pilots to feel a little bit better about training hard to fly the ships. They deserve it. What do you guys feel about what I've just talked about?
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition New Eve Order
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:32:00 -
[878]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 01/08/2007 19:32:29
Originally by: Vampire Lord There are a few ways to fix this problem without rewriting code. Make modifications to the mods that have some logical since. Like increasing the power grid upwards to match Neuts. Add rigs or mods the increase your resistance to NOS.. Option 1: NOS Increase the power grid NOS takes to be fitted. Upwards to almost match Neuts. This change alone fixes most of the problems with NOS.. As stated NOS is overpowered and has been. It's widely used an easy to fit. So you change the ease to fit. Forcing NOS tanks to lose a large Portion of their tank to be a NOS boat. While still allowing EVE.. The player controlled environment to remain controlled by players. Also add in a MOD an rig that increases NOS resistance. Rigs add 20% Resistance... Stacking Penalty Mods add 25% Resistance... Stacking Penalty By using this option you can tell the people who cry wolf about NOS to fit a resistance rig or mod on their ship. While at the same time limiting how many NOS can be fitted on your ship. Debuffing NOS all together without modifying what it does. Yes this option still means that some people will still use NOS boats but it will cost them and they have to worry about facing ships that are NOS resistance. T2 Ships Alongside with the Shield Resists bonus T2 ships get a 3-5% per lvl to NOS & Neut Resists. Changes that could be made with a good reason an yet again nurfing NOS but with good reason an logic behind it. This also allows T2 Pilots to feel a little bit better about training hard to fly the ships. They deserve it. What do you guys feel about what I've just talked about?
and how exactly is a pilgrim supposed to fit that? using a powergrid rig as it is now, and i'm at 30 some odd left
why dont you re-read my post asking the dev's how we're supposed to fit.
edit: Page 32 and no dev response yet
The Beginning <-- crap quality, need to redo, sorry :( |
Trebor Notlimah
Gallente Gunfleet Logistics Rogue Method Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:33:00 -
[879]
/not signed. The NOS nerf is wayyyyyyyy too much. Back to the drawing boards.
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Wyliee
Taurus Inc Karnal Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:37:00 -
[880]
<<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>>
please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna.
something i dont think ccp have even thought about.
if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target..
then noz are going to be less effective for me?
if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place....
then noz are going to be great for me?
so nerf high skills and boost low skills?
or have i got this completely wrong?
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:57:00 -
[881]
Originally by: Wyliee <<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>>
please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna.
something i dont think ccp have even thought about.
if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target..
then noz are going to be less effective for me?
if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place....
then noz are going to be great for me?
so nerf high skills and boost low skills?
or have i got this completely wrong?
yea pretty much can't get on sisi though but that pretty much looks right to me *wishes he didn't max cap skills and controled bursts* just imagine how quick i could nuke someones cal with 7 mega pulse II on an abaddon :D
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Devourment
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:06:00 -
[882]
I am very disappointed in these changes.
NOS This makes the NOS useless.
1) NOS was used for keeping tank going. Now with the changes, a tank will not be maintained, especially in multiple ship engagements. NOS a target, hit equilibrium and tank stops, all the while all the other ships are still pounding on you.
2) NOS were also an effective anti-frigate weapon seeing as even light drones cannot keep up with the current ultra fast interceptors. A NOS or 2 could keep the ceptors at bay while not draining precious cap that is needed for tanking.
Thumbs Down
Khanid MKII
I am all for adding another missile specific and initially was for changes until I looked into the details. These changes have made the Khanid ships one dimentional. They can ONLY be close range ships to take advantage of their bonuses. All other ships have options for close AND long range fighting, enabling the player to tailor the fitting to thier style or current situation. You cannot do that with thee changes.
1) Malediction is dead. Only close range means it HAS to be ultra fast and close before long range Caldari, Gal and Min ships.
I have also noticed a trend in fleet type engagments to include 1 or 2 Smart Bomb BS's to take out drones and tacklers. Malediction does not have a way to avoid these ships and add DPS to the engagement.
2) Heretic with Missiles or Med Beams could drop a bubble and then orbit at range and add DPS. Now it is in the same boat as Malediction. I see the Heretic becoming a ultra cheap interdictor with 2 Bubble launchers and dropping all weapon systems.
3) Absolution..DOA No DPS...who would want to fly one? Total nerf of one of the more fun to fly command ships.
Over all the concept of making another line of ships missile capable is a good idea. Forcing the issue to only close range is very shortsighted (no pun intended). It is almost as someone felt they needed to find a way to get players to use the underpowered Rocket and Hvy Assault weapon systems and are forcing the issue with the Khanid ships creating a Ship/weapon system that will go into mothballs.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:11:00 -
[883]
Originally by: Santa Anna 210 for an EWar cruiser is pretty good. Complain to a Rook or Lachesis pilot about your dps.
WTS: clue. It is actually sub-average for the EW cruisers.
Rook does with navy ammo 175 dps which is barely below and unlike the curses/pilgrims dps not destroyable. Lachesis does with plain out t1 ammo around 100 more dps. In both cases without damagemods.
Come again?
Quote: You can tell when someone is repping and when they stop if you look at their ship. The thing that stops them from getting to their peak recharge is you.
Hello? You still fail to understand the problem.
You sit at 30% cap. Which you NEED to keep to keep your scram and EW up. So by which magical means will you stop them from getting from lets say 20% to 30% cap again? Nos does not work. And you have no free cap for neuts.
Those-tactics-do-no-work-for-1v1. What is so difficult to understand there?
Quote: You can always repeat the process if he does manage to get over peak recharge.
Exept you do not have the cap for it, as you apparently do not understand.
Quote: No one on Sisi seems to be having any problems with the new nos on the Curse.
OH RLY? In gang vs gang it works. In 1v1 however it does not - unless you fit a cap injector and your target doesn't.
Otherwise you have zero-zip-zilch chance to get your target below optimal cap recharge. You can get it with good timing slightly below optimal recharge, but have then no way to stop it from recharging to optimal because you have no cap reserves left to use your neuts.
Quote: Half the curse pilots on TQ have snakes. Why is that a big deal?
And half of all shieldtankers use gistii boosters, right?
Faction modules and implants give a *significant* boost. They are no the rule but the exeption. A faction fitted curse can *of cource* disable multiple targets. ANY factionfitted ship can.
The "big deal" is that comparing a factionfitted ships performance vs a t2 fitted ships performance = fallancy. You might as well compare a t1 fitted ship vs a t2 fitted ship. Yes, thats gonna be a balanced comparsion...
Quote: Get on Sisi and play around with it. You seem to be whining an awful lot without trying it.
I am not whining, I am stating facts. You could use some testing, since you quite obviously haven't tested your "smart" tactics.
Quote: The second ship the guy killed was soloed with a handicap (curse was already damaged and that ship's cap was already down).
Funny, I never saw him writing that his ship was damaged or how much down its cap was. Ah, you are now desperate enough to starting to draw assumptions as you please?
Quote: You can tell when he reps. If you have him down to charges, he'll be repping after he uses a charge. Cap injectors and medium neuts have the same cycle time. You also don't need to be anywhere near perfect (no BS has 1035 m3 cargo, and they also have ammo).
Newsflash: he does not need to rep instantly after a charge. If he does he will use it in that way that way that there will be no cap left after it. Aaaand a wasted cap charge for you.
Quote: A nos/neut curse or a curse with an injector would make waiting a bit of a gamble.
Noooo? If you need to run your rep only once every 20 sec to negate the complete damage you get why on EARTH would you run it continuously? You would only make it easier for the curse to get your cap down?
Think then post.
Quote: Well obviously if you get primaried by a BS gang you get out. In a Force Recon if you get anything more than stray drone damage in a gang environment your tank will have trouble.
And getting into webdistance of a target which won't die quickly will really help a pilgrim to get out, right?
Also, your standard 2 LSE rapier fit can actually take quite a bit of a beating. A falcon will be out of drone control range if he has any clue. And an arazu can field nearly the same tank as a pilgrim.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:12:00 -
[884]
Originally by: Santa Anna
Quote: And in either case, the whole point is that a pilgrim can only use half it's boni when in a gang.
I already agreed with you that a nos range bonus would be more useful than a nos amount bonus. I'm not sure why you feel the need to argue with someone who agrees with you on a subject.
So you say you were wrong and agree that the pilgrim is no good gangship?
Quote: 2x damps = disabled. 1x damp < 1x TD for SR turret bs.
A 1 TDed BS will still hit your own BS in the gang *just fine*. 1 TD is only a partial disabeling. Nevermind that there are still missiles, drones, nos/neuts, webs, scrams and EW.
Quote: 3x multi, 2x racial > 1 TD. Less, TD is better vs turret BS.
Se above. Also, in both cases you ignore that the arazu and falcon have 2-3 more slots available for EW then the pilgrim.
Quote: Curse gets 2 ewar bonuses for recon. Rook is only analogue. Pilgrim keeps the less useful bonus. 3x bonused TD's + covops cloak can be useful in gangs if you fly it
We are talking about the pilgrim here, not the curse. And to repeat myself:
And in either case, the whole point is that a pilgrim can only use half it's boni when in a gang.
Yes, a pilgrim can be "useful" as in "better than nothing" in a gang. Every ship is. A dominx can be "useful" in a sniper gang. That does not make it a good idea to use it there.
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SencneS
Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:29:00 -
[885]
Edited by: SencneS on 01/08/2007 20:32:19 Whoever said "Training Missile skills takes less time then Armor Tanking skills" needs to grow a brain. I took a Gallente Character, no Missile, No Armor, no Amarr or Caldari skills. All of these training times are with no learning skills and no implants Actual time would be considerably less if Implants and Learning skills where included.
Time to Train EVERY SINGLE ARMOR TANKING skill you need to level 5 141d 21h.
Time to Train EVERY SINGLE HAM and Missile skill to make them effective to level 5. 496d 12h.
Here is the same toon direct path to Command Ship 5 Damnation. 443d 21h.
Damnation from scratch with Cap skills to level 5, Damnation to level 5 and Armor to level 5 637d 19h.
Here is a Damnation with Heavy Beam Lasers II's to level 5 and all it's support skills to level 5. 1248d 7h.
Now here is a Damnation with HAM II to level 5 and all it's support skills to level 5. 1314d 8h.
You have to be aware this is from a Gal noob character with no Missile, Laser, or Armor skills. The reason I chose Heavy Beam Lasers II is the current Damnation has Distance bonuses which is what Beam Lasers are designed for, Range rather then speed.
As you can CLEARLY see, the current Damnation takes 66days less time to completely MAX out training, then with the new proposed Damnation. Also keep in mind, the HAM-II layout HAS NO LASER SKILLS at all! which means you're spending 637 days training for the Damnation and you have NO WEAPONS on any of the other Amarr ships you train alone the way!
Here is skill set for the Damnation minus the weapons. Keep in mind these is CAP and Armor + Damnation itself. Although you would train more skills to be even more effective this skill set is JUST for what the Damnation is designed for. Advanced Weapon Upgrades V Amarr Cruiser V Amarr Frigate IV Battlecruisers V Command Ships V Electronics II EM Armor Compensation V Energy Management V Energy Systems Operation V Engineering III Explosive Armor Compensation V Gunnery II Hull Upgrades V Kinetic Armor Compensation V Leadership V Logistics IV Long Range Targeting V Repair Systems V Signature Analysis V Spaceship Command V Thermic Armor Compensation V Warfare Link Specialist IV Weapon Upgrades V
Here is the HAM-II and Missile support skills. (1314days, 102,483,000 ISK) Guided Missile Precision V Heavy Assault Missile Specialization V Heavy Assault Missiles V Missile Bombardment V Missile Launcher Operation V Missile Projection V Rapid Launch V Standard Missiles III Target Navigation Prediction V Warhead Upgrades V
Here is the HBL-II and Turret Support Skills. (1248days, 102,903,000 ISK) Gunnery V (although Gunnery II is in Missiles it's required to get Advance Weapons Upgrades) Medium Beam Laser Specialization V Medium Energy Turret V Motion Prediction V Rapid Firing V Sharpshooter V Small Beam Laser Specialization IV Small Energy Turret V Surgical Strike V Trajectory Analysis V
Yes, Missiles you have to learn 1 additional skill over HBL-II skill set.
Like I've said before and I'll say it again - You'll be lucky if you find anyone flying Damnations after this patch..
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Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama! |
Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:09:00 -
[886]
Originally by: CCP Wrangler -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Ive quoted Jim's Siggy and Wranglers words for this small blurb of mine:
Wrangler's words are exactly the opposite of what is happening to Eve-online. Ok the Khanid changes came...it was needed since I always wondered why it had armor bonuses when supposedly the Khanid used shields like caldari...
But the Nos thing is too much. CCP is starting to cave into the whining and moaning of new players. I've played Eve for 3 years. I hated Nos because of the Nos domi and thought it needed nerfing, but I learned how to adapt...This nerf is taking it to such an extreme that it damages an entire faction. Lemme get this straight then....does that mean that the extra Nos ability of the Bhaalgorn, cruor and Ahimu get changed now to Neut?
This used to be Eve-online: play at your own risk, while having fun and seeing the harshness of life in space. Now it has become that happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures that I was trying to avoid with WoW.
------------------- New account on EvE-Online...$19.95 100 Day GTC...$49.95 2 Month supply of German beer...$200.00
Having your computer die because of Hello Kitty online...Priceless |
Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:10:00 -
[887]
Originally by: Wyliee <<ALL POSTERS IN THIS TOPIC PLEASE READ>>>>
please can forum users clarify this..seen as ccp dont wanna.
something i dont think ccp have even thought about.
if i have great cap skills and have more total cap and faster recharge than my target..
then noz are going to be less effective for me?
if on the other hand i have low skills and burn cap all over the place....
then noz are going to be great for me?
so nerf high skills and boost low skills?
or have i got this completely wrong?
That's one way to look at it... the other is to know you're going to have more cap so burn more of it to compensate (meaning you'll be doing more stuff). For example, turn your armor rep on before you really need it to bleed off just a little more. Cycle a webber/scram on a target even if you don't need to. Enter the fight really low by onlining an offlined module. There are plenty ways to bleed off a little cap.
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Crash Sagramo
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:10:00 -
[888]
Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 01/08/2007 21:12:28 No reply from ccp, may be they forgot about us?
I've found one positive moment - i don't care about loosing my curse, soon it will be useless string in market... nos will be to.
Everybody, who says that nos can be used don't understand, that they won't be usefull enough to spend you grid/cpu i/d better fit smart o use more powerfull turrets
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:14:00 -
[889]
Quote: Hello? You still fail to understand the problem.
You sit at 30% cap. Which you NEED to keep to keep your scram and EW up. So by which magical means will you stop them from getting from lets say 20% to 30% cap again? Nos does not work. And you have no free cap for neuts.
Those-tactics-do-no-work-for-1v1. What is so difficult to understand there?
If you are at 30% and your target is at 20%, it is going to NOS you. Ignoring that... why not plan ahead and charge up to 35% (instead of 30%) so you can use that neut and drop back down to 25% to 30%?
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:15:00 -
[890]
Edited by: Borasao on 01/08/2007 21:18:48
Quote: 3) Absolution..DOA No DPS...who would want to fly one? Total nerf of one of the more fun to fly command ships.
There was no change to the Absolution at all. You might mean 'Damnation'.
Quote: 1) Malediction is dead. Only close range means it HAS to be ultra fast and close before long range Caldari, Gal and Min ships.
I have also noticed a trend in fleet type engagments to include 1 or 2 Smart Bomb BS's to take out drones and tacklers. Malediction does not have a way to avoid these ships and add DPS to the engagement.
Must you add DPS to the engagement? I fly a Malediction now with only launchers on it as it is to save cap for other things. I don't feel the need to always even be doing DPS at all. You can tackle just fine without firing any high slot module at all. DPS on the Malediction is just icing on the cake and the Mk II adds even more icing.
Quote: 2) Heretic with Missiles or Med Beams could drop a bubble and then orbit at range and add DPS. Now it is in the same boat as Malediction. I see the Heretic becoming a ultra cheap interdictor with 2 Bubble launchers and dropping all weapon systems.
Heh... for the previous lines about being worried about not contributing DPS... this doesn't make sense. The Heretic should be able to do decent DPS at a decent range without using *any* cap at all or worrying about tracking *plus* the rocket launchers use small amounts of grid. It doesn't make sense not to put rocket launchers on it unless you just don't have the skills... and then that's OK too because you can still perform the main task which is drop bubbles.
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Darian Hazedango
Dawn of a new Empire Pure.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:19:00 -
[891]
I've been thinking and thinking, and I still can't feel good about the NOS nerf. Diminishing returns, reduced effectiveness vs ships with less cap than yourself, there are other options out there that would take far less to impliment and would not be such a huge punch in the gut to players that have well settled into their preferred play stile.
To the folks that say "FIT A NEUT!", yes, that is an option. It would be nice if the nerf made it so that it would be a decent alternative. But I think these changes will pound NOS so far into uselessness that neuts become the ONLY practical option, not an alternative. This isn't an ajustment, it's a complete restructuring for something I don't believe requires a complete restructuring. If a smaller ajustment still isn't enough, then you can always ajust it some more later.
As for the Amarr ships, I don't really fly Amarr so I can't relate too much. But it does seem as if you're asking a lot of players to greatly change their style of play and spend a lot of paid time in game to train skills they wouldn't otherwise want to invest time into.
I wouldn't be taken back so much if you kept the large changes down to a couple of ships. Hell, I'd think it'd be great to have one or two ships for each race bust out of the box a bit. (A projectile Gallente ship or a beam Minmatar anyone?) But you just made sweeping changes to an entire line of ships. I think you would do better to focus your attention to a smaller amount of ships that need it more.
I'm impressed with your willingness to go great lengths to improve upon game mechanics, but lets reel it back in a little bit before clubbing it about the head, eh? You can always tweak it more later. Baby steps people. :P
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:20:00 -
[892]
Originally by: Crash Sagramo Edited by: Crash Sagramo on 01/08/2007 21:12:28 No reply from ccp, may be they forgot about us?
They usually don't reply in these... they just watch the turmoil.
Quote: I've found one positive moment - i don't care about loosing my curse, soon it will be useless string in market... nos will be to.
Can I have it? I'll give you 10m isk for it... since it's worthless, you'll be making out like a bandit!
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LvxOccvlta
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:22:00 -
[893]
No... the same Nos setup on the Curse after the Nos nerf does NOT work like it used to. What the hell are you guys thinking?
The Curse used the Nos first to bust the cap (and drain cap injectors) of it's target so it can't deploy modules. Then the Drones come in and damage it while the Nos holds the cap down so that the target can't repair.
Because Nos does not empty the cap, the Curse no longer breaks tanks. Therefore, it does not work like it did before.. The pilgrim is even worse off, and after months and months training to use these ships, we have every reason to be a little ****ed.
Give Nos a special hard point AND make it Sig radius dependent, if you want to nerf it.
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RossP Zoyka
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:23:00 -
[894]
I don't think that the "curses and pilgrims will have kind of a hard time taking out Battleships 1v1 after the NOS nerf" is a valid argument against the NOS nerf.
If anything it is a reaffirmation that they are doing something right. The fact that a Curse still can take out most BS 1v1 even after the nerf is actually pretty humorous.
Also, the argument that "I now have to train missles to fly sweet Khanid ships! That's awful!" is not a good argument against that change either. Oh well, don't train up the skills. If you could fly the Khanid ships well before the patch, then you can fly the other T2s better anyways.
Now the Khanid are finally different enough to be more effective.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:24:00 -
[895]
Quote: Like I've said before and I'll say it again - You'll be lucky if you find anyone flying Damnations after this patch..
Can I has ur Damnation? It's not like it can't give gang bonuses anymore.
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:26:00 -
[896]
Originally by: RossP Zoyka I don't think that the "curses and pilgrims will have kind of a hard time taking out Battleships 1v1 after the NOS nerf" is a valid argument against the NOS nerf.
If anything it is a reaffirmation that they are doing something right. The fact that a Curse still can take out most BS 1v1 even after the nerf is actually pretty humorous.
Also, the argument that "I now have to train missles to fly sweet Khanid ships! That's awful!" is not a good argument against that change either. Oh well, don't train up the skills. If you could fly the Khanid ships well before the patch, then you can fly the other T2s better anyways.
Now the Khanid are finally different enough to be more effective.
Well said... those who can fly Sacrileges well now can, even now, fly Zealots well (and it's even a better ship). Same for all the rest. If you don't want to train missiles, don't. I, for one, welcome the new Khanid ships. I think they'll be fun to pilot.
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SleepyOSU
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:27:00 -
[897]
Originally by: E Vile I don't see what all the crying is about with Nos. Now it just takes cap to suck cap dry. Just mix in more neutralizers.
Personally I like the change. Now if you want to suck someone dry you need to risk having your own cap low.
M8, don't screw all the armor tankers just cauz u fly a passive myrmidon thats not effected.
They way they want to do it makes nos a defensive weapon the only way cap drain could be used offensively now will be if ur in a bigger ship, and this hurts high class ships also.
However if they do this change it will be passive tanked neut boats that will come from it.
This also makes it crazy hard to kill a supper cap. |
LvxOccvlta
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:31:00 -
[898]
Wanna hear a good argument against the NOS nerf?
I can fit a 4 million ISK Arbitrator with 3 rigs, and it'll be nearly as effective as an 80 million ISK Pilgrim with 2 rigs.
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N1fty
Amarr Galactic Shipyards Inc HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:36:00 -
[899]
Originally by: Hammar Wolf
Well there are several problems. For one the pilgrim can only take on caldari ships if its well tanked and has armor plating to last, with a full tackling fitting such as all scrams or webs or a combo of damps and scrams it is heavily cap dependent. Now currently a Pilgrim vs Raven fight reaches a key point when the raven is sapped for cap but the pilgrim has plenty to go and can outlast the hitpoints on the raven. With the new setup to kill his cap you have to have none yourself, shortly thereafter your mods will turn off and you may well die as the raven can last much longer on its HP than the pilgrim. 2 nos + 1 neut are simply insufficient to fully power the pilgrim for one and its a deadly setup because once the opponent runs out of cap your neut may keep going and drain you to the last ounce you have before you manage to turn it off. Also you are now totally vulnerable to someone throwing a neut onto you, especially at the wrong moment which means fairly instant death.
Was jamming a scorp yesterday while draining him and the fight went pretty well since his nos couldn't really counter mine when he could use it. If I didn't have plenty reserve cap whenever it hit I would have lost all power and this is precisely what will happen with this patch - once you hit low 1 heavy neut will decimate you instantly.
Yeah I think its the fact that this change breaks ships which are supposed to rely on Nos feeding tanks in 1v1. The Curse can do as well as before if it has a couple of targets to work on, same with the Pilgrim, but the Pilgrim really is a 1v1 ship. Fact is that to break a tank you have to kill your own which is fine for non specialist ships, but specialists will always die in this situation, especially if the enemy is firing with no cap [now most ships with Khanid changes].
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NOS change based on %regen |
Vampire Lord
World Order The Imperial Order
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Posted - 2007.08.01 21:41:00 -
[900]
Originally by: Feng Schui Edited by: Feng Schui on 01/08/2007 19:32:29
Originally by: Vampire Lord There are a few ways to fix this problem without rewriting code. Make modifications to the mods that have some logical since. Like increasing the power grid upwards to match Neuts. Add rigs or mods the increase your resistance to NOS.. Option 1: NOS Increase the power grid NOS takes to be fitted. Upwards to almost match Neuts. This change alone fixes most of the problems with NOS.. As stated NOS is overpowered and has been. It's widely used an easy to fit. So you change the ease to fit. Forcing NOS tanks to lose a large Portion of their tank to be a NOS boat. While still allowing EVE.. The player controlled environment to remain controlled by players. Also add in a MOD an rig that increases NOS resistance. Rigs add 20% Resistance... Stacking Penalty Mods add 25% Resistance... Stacking Penalty By using this option you can tell the people who cry wolf about NOS to fit a resistance rig or mod on their ship. While at the same time limiting how many NOS can be fitted on your ship. Debuffing NOS all together without modifying what it does. Yes this option still means that some people will still use NOS boats but it will cost them and they have to worry about facing ships that are NOS resistance. T2 Ships Alongside with the Shield Resists bonus T2 ships get a 3-5% per lvl to NOS & Neut Resists. Changes that could be made with a good reason an yet again nurfing NOS but with good reason an logic behind it. This also allows T2 Pilots to feel a little bit better about training hard to fly the ships. They deserve it. What do you guys feel about what I've just talked about?
and how exactly is a pilgrim supposed to fit that? using a powergrid rig as it is now, and i'm at 30 some odd left
why dont you re-read my post asking the dev's how we're supposed to fit.
edit: Page 32 and no dev response yet
The fix to that would be: IĈm almost sure youĈre using a nano set-up with a MWD. Also note that ships weren't made so that you can fit everything on them. Rigs allow ships to go that extra limit to try to get that perfect set-up. Another easy fix which makes since is make NOS require Cap to be activated. This would be the simplest way to nerf it without thinking too much an coming up with some unrealistic reason or dumb rule that doesn't equate. You say it increases your ships recharge rate too much... so just add a activation of 1/2 the amount it drains. T2 would obviously have a better ratio. What you propose fixes one thing and breaks another. Maybe IĈm missing something but you could do something like start a thread can ask the peoples option an then work from there. At least for major things such as changing NOS which affects a large portion of EVE in almost all races. Over all to me the NOS changes are a Amarr buff. Being that Amarr pilots complain the most about being NOS'd. All these changes are pro Amarr but they do cripple what is now considered the best Amarr ships (pilgrim/curses). An the best recon for that matter. So they payment for better Amarr ships is the lost of solopwning in the curse. CCP are you even reading this???
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