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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 14 post(s) |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
928
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Posted - 2012.01.12 11:49:00 -
[1] - Quote
With Crucible we introduced the amazing ability of Time Dilation, a major step forward in the War against Lag!
Now that Time Dilation got activated on several occasions, we would like to ask for your feedback. Did you notice any difference compared to your 'normal' fleet fights? Was your EVE experience affected in some positive or negative way? Did you notice any strange or unexpected behaviour?
Let's help our brave developers and support them in the fight against the evil lag monster with good feedback!
CCP Phantom - German Community Coordinator |
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inexistin
Rubbish and Garbage Removal Cascade Imminent
13
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Posted - 2012.01.12 12:35:00 -
[2] - Quote
Didn't participate to any Time Dilated fight, unfortunately |
Raid'En
Apprentice Innovations
168
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Posted - 2012.01.12 13:16:00 -
[3] - Quote
since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago |
ChromeStriker
The Riot Formation
48
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Posted - 2012.01.12 13:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Raid'En wrote:since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago
It was only activated for a few fights, with dev supervision, not across the whole cluster - Nulla Curas |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
295
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Posted - 2012.01.12 14:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
ChromeStriker wrote:Raid'En wrote:since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago It was only activated for a few fights, with dev supervision, not across the whole cluster This is correct, and will be the case for this weekend. If things are going great, then we'll likely go cluster-wide next week. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
185
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Posted - 2012.01.12 14:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:Raid'En wrote:since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago It was only activated for a few fights, with dev supervision, not across the whole cluster This is correct, and will be the case for this weekend. If things are going great, then we'll likely go cluster-wide next week.
I like that Idea of testing something "in Production" even if it killed that fight with WN.
Looking forward to see it in action... DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
Alua Oresson
The Dominion of Light BLACK-MARK
57
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Posted - 2012.01.12 15:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:Raid'En wrote:since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago It was only activated for a few fights, with dev supervision, not across the whole cluster This is correct, and will be the case for this weekend. If things are going great, then we'll likely go cluster-wide next week.
Was the node crash problem ever fixed? Or was that due to the server being ready to crash already and flipping the switch just pushed it over the edge? (Referring to the CFC vs Raiden/WN fight) |
Neo Agricola
BLACK-MARK
185
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Posted - 2012.01.12 16:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
Alua Oresson wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:Raid'En wrote:since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago It was only activated for a few fights, with dev supervision, not across the whole cluster This is correct, and will be the case for this weekend. If things are going great, then we'll likely go cluster-wide next week. Was the node crash problem ever fixed? Or was that due to the server being ready to crash already and flipping the switch just pushed it over the edge? (Referring to the CFC vs Raiden/WN fight)
afaik: They fixed that problem on the day after that fight... DISSONANCE is recruiting Members: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=70361#post70361 Black-Mark Alliance Recruitment: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=6710 |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
58
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Posted - 2012.01.13 19:42:00 -
[9] - Quote
mmm i cant wait for this veritas! will buy you a beer as and when i go to fanfest sometime! |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
204
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Posted - 2012.01.14 18:13:00 -
[10] - Quote
Looks freaking awesome at 10% \o/
Ships slowing down coming out of warp is particularly cool. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/39006524/DumbHiseccers.jpg |
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
352
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Posted - 2012.01.15 09:17:00 -
[11] - Quote
Pros:
TiDi seems to help increase client performance in that it feels as though the computer isn't struggling to keep up in eve-real-time.
TiDi exposes the most frustrating bugs in EVE.
Cons:
The bug when locking a target with weapons hot and the module activating as soon as a lock is established is MUCH more visible.
It feels like the server doesn't receive the weapons hot command + lock established in the same packet.
The stack of instructions (not the requests) for jumping while on a TiDi node is a VERY painful experience. It feels like the period of where your client is loading the next system is also dilated and blows monkeyballs.
TiDi exposes the most frustrating bugs in EVE
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS GOOD AND HOLY: Please, I beg you, fix the bug of updating corp/alliance/standings after a jump into a system so my EVE friends don't show neutral after jumping into combat. To reproduce: remove the ability to see blues on your overvew (you might wanna have CCP set one side of the next engagement you monitor blue to CCP Alliance) and load grid on a friendly fleet. After loading a grid via session change, many pilots standings are not refreshed.
As I understand, the character info location is retrieved somewhere else... on another node?
Potentially you can have that node be set so that after a request for corp/alliance is made... a few ticks later this node automagically sends the same stack of requests for corp/alliance/standings to the fight to refresh it. Right now it seems as though this series of requests is done once and the update requests I make a then pulled from a cache.
something... I don't know.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
mercuryyy
Overplayed Associates Ltd. Fatal Ascension
1
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Posted - 2012.01.16 11:59:00 -
[12] - Quote
Prioritize actions that result in people leaving the system. As in "leaving through a gate", "using a jump drive out"(when not agressed maybe,needs research) or "clonejumping elsewhere".
TiDi happens because there are too many players in the system, doing to many things at once that all have to be relayed and transmitted to each and every client.
I was in a fleet (3 combined fleets for that matter) last weekend. Tried traveling together, but soon got streched out. Gatelag is bad enough already when a few hundred players try to use the same gate. Its much worse when you dont have to wait 30 seconds after the jump command (and get a bunch of traffic advisory notifications in the process) to actually see a jump animation, let alone wait for you to load the next system.
Its absolutely worse waiting those 30 seconds being dilated to 10%. And when finally loading the new system, being at the emergency warp position. Yes, it took us the better part of an hour to travel 7 Jumps. As soon as a few pilots activated a gate for jumping out, one could see the dilation notifier in the corner turn and turn and turn.. Being this was only a test probably saved the GMs from getting time dilated as well, as there briefly was an idea of about 700 pilots just stopping to try to leave a system, but file "stuck" petitions all at once We talked that one out of the idea though.
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
297
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Posted - 2012.01.16 12:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
mercuryyy wrote:Its absolutely worse waiting those 30 seconds being dilated to 10%.
Can you explain this part, specifically?
I know (very well) that jumping hundreds of players around is a very painful experience. How exactly does Time Dilation make it worse in your opinion? CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Zagdul
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
353
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:08:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:mercuryyy wrote:Its absolutely worse waiting those 30 seconds being dilated to 10%. Can you explain this part, specifically? I know (very well) that jumping hundreds of players around is a very painful experience. How exactly does Time Dilation make it worse in your opinion?
I don't mean to speak for him, but the process of jumping feels like it's bugged to hell and back. Putting it into TiDi exposes it and you feel the entire process failing and bugging out far more during TiDi than you would without.
The process of jumping through a gate needs help, potentially something more drastic than optimization.
It's not Rocket Surgery |
mercuryyy
Overplayed Associates Ltd. Fatal Ascension
1
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Posted - 2012.01.17 11:46:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:mercuryyy wrote:Its absolutely worse waiting those 30 seconds being dilated to 10%. Can you explain this part, specifically? I know (very well) that jumping hundreds of players around is a very painful experience. How exactly does Time Dilation make it worse in your opinion?
Well, it felt (and was) a lot longer than usual. Sadly, i didnt think about frapsing how it actually looked on our end.
For instance, take the process how its happening on a lagged, but not dilated node.
-You warp to a gate. -Click the jump button. -Wait a moment -See the jump animation on your ship -Wait another moment -See the ships around you disappear one after another (the ones that had the jump animation before you had it, that is). -Ocasionally still have shield boost/hardener animation of ships around, but the ships themselves not. (I specifically recall a Maelstrom next to me that was just its shield - the shield was there, and animated, but the ship model itself was not.) -see traffic advisories or other random text notifications Then eventually you see the "jumping" text down there in the middle, see your local clear, your overview clear and disappear, come back and filling again (if youre lucky). That took us about a minute per jump before arriving in dilated systems.
Then, in dilation, the wait was just longer. Everything concerning that lagged jump to the next system happened as i described it above, but much much slower. The ship jump animation happened fairly quickly, but time between you disappearing and loading new system were considerably longer. Somehow it felt as if there was some timer that determines how many people within a specific timeframe the server considers safe to move off to another node (and therefore accepts or delays) which just got dilated as well.
I mean, to explain why i think of this here, we all know how the optics of a big jump look at a gate. Everyone is at the gate, FC commands jump. People may or may not click all at once, but i think its fair to assume everyone clicks within 2 seconds after that command. Whatever happens that everyone should have seen by recreating a fleet consisting of players trying to jump at once, people seem to get "grouped". You start to see a bunch of ships at the gate begin to play their jump animation. half a second later the next ones. then again, about the same timespan later, the next bunch. and so on.
But to my knowledge, the jump animation on the client is in no way representative to the actual session change over to the other system. Whatever logic tries to "group"stuff or actions or whatever there seems to delay things more then necessary.
The wait between the clicking of the jump button and the actual jumping out of the system was far greater than expected, and a multiple of that we had with the same amount of people traveling before or after coming into dilated constellations.
We got stretched out by that a fair bit, so i figure both sides of the gate were not coping very well with the load (regardless of dilation) so the warp back to the gate after jumping because you nearly dropped and already did an emergency warp on the other side was nearly always the case in jumping dilated. Never had any emergency warps on the other cide before switching the client session (as i may call it because i have no real clue besides basic understanding of network techniques that may or may not be used here, translate into your intern CCP vocabulary as you must) to your ship in the new system. Only times i had emergency warps after jumping without dilation was logging back in after the server was so lagged that it dropped the entire client connection with a timeout.
I think time dilation should help the server ease up a little under the load thats been put on it by the players interacting with it. But then it should be able to serve such session changes even faster. A non-dilated server will just peak out at 100% load when a huge fleet changes systems. A dilated one should be able to free ressources from other stuff that is going on to help with jump lag. Even if the entire node (thats all systems on that node) is completely empty of any players or interaction besides the fleet jumping, it should at least be the same time until all sessions are changed over to the next system. If it needs to dilate down in order to process the session changes more eficciently there should at least be a small improvement, not a nearly tenfold increase of needed processor time.
Maybe you can even create these effects yourself in your Dev Sandbox in Jove space somewhere. Put a bunch (200 should do) ships of whatever type (doesnt matter for session changes, does it?) in a system with activated dilation. make them fleetwarp to a gate, and use it. Maybe not all at once, but about 10 or 20 at once every few seconds. This part might need some twiddling with numbers and timeframes to represent a fleet traveling. You should see time dilation getting active, and getting cranked up all the way down to nearly 10% within a few seconds. From there, every following pilot will take a good while until arriving in the next system. Try the same without dilation, you should see a difference.
I suspect there are general inperformancies in how a session change is done, in the various steps somewhere where things need to get notified of the new statuses and so on. And it might have something to do with timers that depend on the ingame time, which makes them act up so violently when time gets dilated. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
333
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Posted - 2012.01.17 12:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
As said, the hand off of players between systems seems to be getting affected by the dilation, and (Based on what Veritas was saying in local this weekend) the high cpu cost of changing systems on the server is causing the dilation to go straight from 50% or so down to 10%, and then make the jumps take 10x as long as they would normally.
Make jumping exempt from dilation, or make its cpu cost not affect the dilation, perhaps? o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
219
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Posted - 2012.01.17 16:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Does time dilation effect our ability to warp our pods out by spamming warp? Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Elise Randolph
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
111
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Posted - 2012.01.17 18:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
We got to experience TiDi a few times in the last week, and it was nothing short but amazing today. It made a fight that would have surely been ruined by lag easily playable (and fun too). CCP Veritas saves the day! |
Timural
High Flyers RED.OverLord
3
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Posted - 2012.01.17 18:15:00 -
[19] - Quote
Just had time dilation in a 700 man fleet fight and it was very playable.
My only problem with it is that time dilation adjust itself to much and drastically, basically going from 15% to 90% and everywhere in between all within a minute. It should work in stages.
Anyways I love it. |
Hedliner
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
0
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:14:00 -
[20] - Quote
We got this for the aforementioned 700 man fight earlier, we loved it and it worked. Thanks for implementing something which works! Please never take it away. |
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BlueMajere
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
2
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:14:00 -
[21] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:ChromeStriker wrote:Raid'En wrote:since when is it active ? it was not on my last fleet fight, 4 days ago It was only activated for a few fights, with dev supervision, not across the whole cluster This is correct, and will be the case for this weekend. If things are going great, then we'll likely go cluster-wide next week.
[17:54:26] CCP Veritas > Don't ever not shitpost.
HELLO
TiDi 0wns |
KSUDruid
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
7
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:17:00 -
[22] - Quote
TiDi is one hell of an addition, don't you ever take it away! |
ChuckBass
Bass Industries
0
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:25:00 -
[23] - Quote
time dialation was great today, thanks a ton to CCP for the work you've put into this, it really makes larger fights a lot easier.
you're my boy ccp veritas |
Centra Spike
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
103
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Veritas owns, TiDi owns. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Ev0ke
44
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Posted - 2012.01.17 20:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
Makes me envious I was so far only part of the inaugural node-death. :( |
DeLaBu
CAF Industries
21
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Posted - 2012.01.18 10:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
It would be nice to see a video of time dilation in action in a real fight (not one of the SISI tests).
Anyone has a link to something like that? |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
297
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Posted - 2012.01.18 11:37:00 -
[27] - Quote
Time Dilation is now active on the cluster by default. Keep the feedback comin'~ CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
564
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Posted - 2012.01.18 11:58:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Time Dilation is now active on the cluster by default. Keep the feedback comin'~
A historic day! |
Archetype 66
Pleasure and Pain Ares Protectiva
115
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Posted - 2012.01.18 13:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Et la foule scande : "Veritas, Veritas, Veritas !" |
KevinleBeu
Pleasure and Pain Ares Protectiva
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 13:23:00 -
[30] - Quote
Oh Yeah |
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Apollo A
Heimr BLACK-MARK
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 15:37:00 -
[31] - Quote
getting server lagg in cloud ring, cant right click and open others character info and getting overview bugs |
Donedy
Xenon Inc. Nap or War
1
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Posted - 2012.01.18 15:38:00 -
[32] - Quote
That may explain the odd lag i had 30mn ago.
A drake which i blow up took 2-3 mn to explode (and the killmail was buggy, he dropped some loots but the km didnt show anything, as if it was unfitted with nothing in cargo).
I was unable to join fleets, i mean the option was there but clicking on it didnt make anything change.
And finally i had a very odd lag which made me undock while i was in station without doing anything. I explain, i wanted to undock, but something was buggy and my ship stayed in station (i was raging click on undock), well finally i resigned cause my target left.
5mn after, without clicking on anything my ship undocked alone itself.
What is odd is that the usual lag seemed to be "time dilated".... |
Shan'Talasha Mea'Questa
The Perfect Harvesting Experience The Gurlstas Associates
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 15:38:00 -
[33] - Quote
I have the impression Time Dilation ate Right-Click... and truthfully... I rather have the latter. |
Magis
Heimr BLACK-MARK
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 15:42:00 -
[34] - Quote
Today time dialation made me log of and not really want to log on i will do it though cause i like to suffer to CCP ideas reason why i still play but OMG took 10min + to right click invite to fleet and still nothing happned...........
and with the time dialation experience i have had in fleets mostly traveling trough gates thumbs down from me for sure |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
304
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Posted - 2012.01.18 16:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Hi,
This afternoon's problems have been identified and the fix has been deployed. They were not related to Time Dilation. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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ed jeni
SKULLDOGS RED.OverLord
3
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Posted - 2012.01.18 17:06:00 -
[36] - Quote
TiD when active seems to break the broadcast system, whether target or logi broadcast, the system seems to stop working altogether then some min later all of the broadcasts appear at once.
broadcasting should have a delay directly related to the system delay to make things fair and even,
if you need more info let me know.
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Zerephin Audeles
Capital Ships Inc. Important Internet Spaceship League
1
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:15:00 -
[37] - Quote
Took about 45 secs to undock with time dilation at 83%.
Am I correct in thinking this was meant to be for large fleet fights, as it seems to also affects systems with only 6 in local.. Its made everything so slow in normal scenarios, not a welcome addition for me i'm afraid.. |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
154
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:16:00 -
[38] - Quote
ed jeni wrote:TiD when active seems to break the broadcast system, whether target or logi broadcast, the system seems to stop working altogether then some min later all of the broadcasts appear at once.
broadcasting should have a delay directly related to the system delay to make things fair and even,
if you need more info let me know.
Hi,
I tried to reproduce this problem on a test-server, but I was not able to find any problem. It would be very helpful to get more information about this, for example through a bugreport. It might be possible, that this issue is not related to Time Dilation at all, but we need more details.
Information, which could be helpful:
- Was your whole fleet having this problem, or was it only happening to you?
- When exactly were the broadcasts coming in?
- Was this also happening in other fights, which were not time dilated?
- A screenshot of the delayed broadcasts.
- Logs from logserver.
Thanks! CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance
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Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
18
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
I just got the TD in a one man fight against a rat
It seems there is one system I fly by that is having the TD kick in when you jump in. I was the only person in system, (and the region is kinda empty too) and engaging a rat or initiating warp caused the TD to start up. Warp took forever. Not sure if this is related to the other problems of the last day, but one you jumped out of the system either way everything was fine in the surrounding systems. |
Timural
High Flyers RED.OverLord
4
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
There is a significant fleet fight going on. 800+ its possible these other systems share the same node and are dealing with time dilatation because of it. Or TiDi is too sensitive and needs to be tuned back. |
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CCP Habakuk
C C P C C P Alliance
154
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:39:00 -
[41] - Quote
Zerephin Audeles wrote: Took about 45 secs to undock with time dilation at 83%.
Am I correct in thinking this was meant to be for large fleet fights, as it seems to also affects systems with only 6 in local.. Its made everything so slow in normal scenarios, not a welcome addition for me i'm afraid..
Manssell wrote:I just got the TD in a one man fight against a rat ...
Timural wrote:There is a significant fleet fight going on. 800+ its possible these other systems share the same node and are dealing with time dilatation because of it. Or TiDi is too sensitive and needs to be tuned back.
There was indeed a significant fleet fight going on and many other systems shared the same node, which caused TiDi in all systems on this server node (without TiDi they would have been just lagged out). CCP Habakuk | EVE Quality Assurance
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Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
18
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Posted - 2012.01.18 18:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
CCP Habakuk wrote:Zerephin Audeles wrote: Took about 45 secs to undock with time dilation at 83%.
Am I correct in thinking this was meant to be for large fleet fights, as it seems to also affects systems with only 6 in local.. Its made everything so slow in normal scenarios, not a welcome addition for me i'm afraid..
Manssell wrote:I just got the TD in a one man fight against a rat ... Timural wrote:There is a significant fleet fight going on. 800+ its possible these other systems share the same node and are dealing with time dilatation because of it. Or TiDi is too sensitive and needs to be tuned back. There was indeed a significant fleet fight going on and many other systems shared the same node, which caused TiDi in all systems on this server node (without TiDi they would have been just lagged out).
I think I'm a couple of regions away for that fight though. Granted I'm not sure how the nodes are actually set up and what systems are on wich ones, but the two neighboring systems seem to both be fine (just tested it agian and one of them is getting the TD but a lot less than the problem one). |
Sirius Cassiopeiae
Perkone Caldari State
58
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Posted - 2012.01.18 20:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
About that TiDi. Can you guys please make that ship computer say to us something like "Ships sensors discovered time flux anomaly generated by unknown source. Ship computer cant predict time variables in this conditions." when that system is under influence of TiDi so that all things don't just go slow... give it a story behind it so that ppl know that's not a bug. And i every space stories there are some time anomalies so... its story vise actually nice thing... |
non judgement
Without Fear Flying Burning Ships Alliance
742
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:02:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm a little disappointed that Jita with over 1600 pilots doesn't have TiDi.
On that note. Is using station stuff/market and CQ affected by TiDi? I'm guessing that it only affects everything in space? |
Rixiu
North Star Networks The Kadeshi
78
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
non judgement wrote:I'm a little disappointed that Jita with over 1600 pilots doesn't have TiDi.
On that note. Is using station services/market and CQ affected by TiDi? I'm guessing that it only affects everything in space? This was already answered somewhere, possibly? I might go looking for the answer myself.
TiDi would be useless in Jita since most of the people are docked in the station. How would tidi work there? Making it take longer to set up a contract or market order?
Edit: The fact that TiDi affects all the systems on the node is very annoying. Wouldn't it be possible to use virtualization be useful for this, using one virtual server for each solar system? Then again I guess performance would suck big time... Any plans to solve this though? |
Swidgen
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 21:31:00 -
[46] - Quote
CCP Habakuk wrote:[quote=Zerephin Audeles]There was indeed a significant fleet fight going on and many other systems shared the same node, which caused TiDi in all systems on this server node (without TiDi they would have been just lagged out). I won't pass judgment on your TiDi design decisions, but I will say this: If the granularity is not enough to target individual solar systems - i.e. other systems on the same node have to be dragged under when one system needs TiDi - I think you're in for a world of hurt and rage. |
Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
35
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Posted - 2012.01.18 22:06:00 -
[47] - Quote
Not sure if TD have anything to do, however today the whole game is really unresponsive. Takes ages to install manufacturing jobs, clicking on the undock button, and for 10 seconds nothing happens. |
ASadOldGit
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
103
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Posted - 2012.01.18 23:11:00 -
[48] - Quote
Sirius Cassiopeiae wrote:About that TiDi. Can you guys please make that ship computer say to us something like " Ships sensors discovered time flux anomaly generated by unknown source. Ship computer cant predict time variables in this conditions." when that system is under influence of TiDi so that all things don't just go slow... give it a story behind it so that ppl know that's not a bug. And i every space stories there are some time anomalies so... its story vise actually nice thing... and/or add some in space graphic that will show us some anomaly that cause that time anomaly... That will be addition to game gameplay as well then... Perhaps a small visual indicator, like the session timer, or a percentage (whether a % of full speed, or % slowdown) would be better. I can imagine an audio alert would get really annoying, really quickly, if it played every time lag hovered around the TiDi threshold (depending on how often it's calculated).
My container is NOT imploding! It's just a bit upset that it only sees cheap crap. |
Sluht Hunter
ProtoStar Trading United Abominations
0
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Posted - 2012.01.18 23:44:00 -
[49] - Quote
The lag caused by TiDi to the rest of us not in the fleet fight or even in 0.0 where its going down is a bit annoying.
Trying to get your right click menu to respond so you can warp to a bm, or station can take 5-10 seconds to appear.
If running a mission guns/mods don't turn off until almost half way through another cycle after target is dead.
I understand why TiDi was introduced, I have been in lag fest fleet fights in the past. But myself I am not liking the effects of this new system on game play in empire space. I know I am not the only one that finds it annoying. Others I have talked with are pissed. This needs fixed asap it could cause lost subscriptions if every one else has to pay for the few to get their jollies in a fleet fight. JMHO |
J Kunjeh
331
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 23:49:00 -
[50] - Quote
Is TIDI the reason I've been getting pop-up's that say something like "major lag...whoa boy"? I've never before that I can recall seen these, but got 2-3 in about 10 minutes today sitting in a station in Sinq doing nothing at all....weird.
"The world as we know it came about through an anomaly (anomou)" (The Gospel of Philip, 1-5)-á |
|
Nikolai Kazansky
Three Wise Fish Invision Group
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 00:23:00 -
[51] - Quote
Let me guess. TiDi is the reason I can no longer right-click in open space (only on celestials) and cannot access my places in people in places. Kind of makes it hard to warp to a bookmark if I cannot access a menu which has them. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasnt for the fact that I am in a wormhole and can't go anywhere if I can't able to access my bookmarks >.<. And I don't even want to think about trying to scan whilst this is going on.
Suffice to say that TiDi in a wormhole is HELL. Please look into this. |
Katherine Starlight
Apex Tech Xenogenesis Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:12:00 -
[52] - Quote
Breaking News!
CCP gave up the long war on lag and commited treason towards its pets, they made The Lag blue, now they are working together with The Lag machines to crush the puny human players. This is just the beginning of the end.
Sums up Time Diliation in an actual EVE enviroment |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 02:29:00 -
[53] - Quote
ASadOldGit wrote:Sirius Cassiopeiae wrote:About that TiDi. Can you guys please make that ship computer say to us something like " Ships sensors discovered time flux anomaly generated by unknown source. Ship computer cant predict time variables in this conditions." when that system is under influence of TiDi so that all things don't just go slow... give it a story behind it so that ppl know that's not a bug. And i every space stories there are some time anomalies so... its story vise actually nice thing... and/or add some in space graphic that will show us some anomaly that cause that time anomaly... That will be addition to game gameplay as well then... Perhaps a small visual indicator, like the session timer, or a percentage (whether a % of full speed, or % slowdown) would be better. I can imagine an audio alert would get really annoying, really quickly, if it played every time lag hovered around the TiDi threshold (depending on how often it's calculated). They have one its just out of the way where it should be. Watch the Dev video. |
Khors
El Barco Pirata
51
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 08:52:00 -
[54] - Quote
FC's talks slower during time dialation to the point where they might fall asleep. Tread carefully CCP. |
totalamd5
OEG Goonswarm Federation
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 10:45:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Veritas, how can we see that TD is active? Is there small circle on the corner like in your video? |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 10:48:00 -
[56] - Quote
totalamd5 wrote:CCP Veritas, how can we see that TD is active? Is there small circle on the corner like in your video? Yes there is that small circle. I have seen it during mass tests on Sisi showing the degree of TIDI. |
Covert Kitty
SRS Industries SRS.
141
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:11:00 -
[57] - Quote
Quote:Wouldn't it be possible to use virtualization be useful for this, using one virtual server for each solar system? Virtualization would compound the problem. Each node is almost certainly a separate process, making the server run a whole operating system for every one would increase resource use by a metric ton.
Quote:CCP gave up the long war on lag and commited treason towards its pets, they made The Lag blue, now they are working together with The Lag machines to crush the puny human players. This is just the beginning of the end. TD is a fantastic addition to the package of tools CCP can bring to bear against the lag issue. Theres really only a few things you can do about lag:
1: Optimize (see the changes to missiles and other efforts) 2: Reduce features (not very popular) 3: Slow things down / increase server cycle time, which is what TD is all about. 4: Increase resources (See server reinforcement / node migration)
The challenge with eve is that there are tens of thousands of systems, and no good way to predict where the resources will be needed. Clearly buying tens of thousands of jita quality servers is simply not an option. CCP has been trying to address this from all of the possible angles, and there IS more that can be done in all those areas, but TD is a major step forward.
Future efforts might include a way to "live migrate" a node to a beefy server, but things like that get really tricky to make work well.
So way to go CCP! Keep up the good work :) |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
811
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 01:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
Most of the complaints in this thread are not tidi related.
Also, the ones which are tidi related are unfounded. Without time dilation, your mission/ratting ship would lag out and die, as your modules fail to work and you can't move. |
Sluht Hunter
ProtoStar Trading United Abominations
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 16:47:00 -
[59] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Most of the complaints in this thread are not tidi related.
Also, the ones which are tidi related are unfounded. Without time dilation, your mission/ratting ship would lag out and die, as your modules fail to work and you can't move.
This is simply not true. Before Tidi I had no lag issues while ratting or pve. Only now that they have put this in place do I notice the lag. And I am not the only one that has noticed.
As I stated in my last post. I understand the awfulness that is massive lag in a huge fleet battle. However I still do not understand how CCP can justify lagging out the majority of subscribers to benefit the minority of subscribers. Lets look deeper into this.
Lets make up some supposed numbers for the sake of argument.
It is now the weekend and say 45,000 subscribers are logged into EvE.
There is a tasty system PL wants to take from another very large alliance in null space. So between the 2 alliances fighting it out for sov, say 2,500 subscribers show up to fight.
Lets do some math.
2,500 subscribers is aprox %6 of subscribers online at time of massive battle.
That leaves the other %94 of subscribers cussing at their monitors because they have to suffer the Tidi so that %6 of online players can have a massive lag free fleet battle.
*note*
I realize that not all %94 of players not in the battle will suffer the Tidi but many will.
Basic logic dictates, The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
233
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 16:55:00 -
[60] - Quote
It might be good if we had some sort of idea of what each "node" covers. That way people who don't want time dilation can avoid the systems in that node. Maybe they already told us and I missed it. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
|
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Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 21:26:00 -
[61] - Quote
When they can break off low usage nodes to other server blades without freezing the action in the stressed node they will do so but in its current form that is not possible. The issue of what systems are in what server blades is pretty random but the diffrent types hs/ls/0.0 amd WH are not mixed. The issue mentioned is on the back log though and once some of the gate jumping timing bugs get worked out they can focus on the next issue on the back log.
i would prefer more work on splitting Crime watch off to a second CPU be a higher priority before active removal of systems while system is stressed because it will effect more people and help the CPU load in more cases. |
Michael Banki
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 00:04:00 -
[62] - Quote
I was in a big fight, there was TIDI but lag was BAD. Might be that tidi was juming on and off alot or that I had lag on my client.
So could tidi change SLOWER if there are 1000 ppl in system. And another thing:
Woulndnt it be great if there was a client lag indicator?
So that we know when to get a better computer... |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
631
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 06:52:00 -
[63] - Quote
Michael Banki wrote:I was in a big fight, there was TIDI but lag was BAD. Might be that tidi was juming on and off alot or that I had lag on my client.
So could tidi change SLOWER if there are 1000 ppl in system. And another thing:
Woulndnt it be great if there was a client lag indicator?
So that we know when to get a better computer...
Try Ctrl-F to turn on the FPS monitor - which might tell you whether the issue is your graphics card not keeping up..
|
Deros
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 13:35:00 -
[64] - Quote
I have been in two fights that have involved time dilation, simple story is this: its horrible, get rid of it.
lag > time dilation.
|
GR0N
VVS Corporition Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 14:38:00 -
[65] - Quote
Dear CCP.
Pls remove this f..n TD and return back old lags or do something new. This is impossible to play in this game w. TD. We are like slowpokes.
4 jumps from destination system w. fight 200x200ppl - TD 20%. local 7ppl are you kiddin? |
Cyzlaki
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
210
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 15:04:00 -
[66] - Quote
Had it affect the entire IPS-QB constellation when a 100 man fleet flew through it. No fight was had, and the fleet didn't even stop in a system. They were direct warping gate to gate. The TD remained on for 5-10 minutes after they left. I was the only person in local when it happened. The effect was quite crappy and sucked. |
GR0N
VVS Corporition Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 15:16:00 -
[67] - Quote
TD 30-35% When we warped w. 200+fleet from one gate to another. And the same lags like before(before TD) when you tryin to jump to the gate. I think old lags will be better than lags w. TD |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
85
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 15:43:00 -
[68] - Quote
Cearain wrote:It might be good if we had some sort of idea of what each "node" covers. That way people who don't want time dilation can avoid the systems in that node. Maybe they already told us and I missed it.
Doesn't work that way.
The cluster shares load, so a good scrap kicks up time dialation for a couple systems around (we were seeing it 6 out today). NOW try to move 400 ships through a gate and you end up with 10% dilation factors that essentially stops the system.
I literally got up, took a bio break, came back, and made if before my scimitar aligned for the next gate.
There could be some tweeking here. |
Boratz
Cosmic Crew
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 18:15:00 -
[69] - Quote
K-IYNW 18:00 21/01/2012
Time dilation is awful, all locals logged off. How anyone can call this amazing when it's just lag with a different name, even worse it is self imposed lag from CCP.
I can just hear the tech guys at CCP "Oh Hans, lets give lag a name, make a cool video and everyone will love it" We can introduce lag I mean Time Dilation into the next patch, oh this is going to be so awesome"
|
Boratz
Cosmic Crew
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 19:21:00 -
[70] - Quote
Update: Well after what seems like an eternity (1.5 hours) i've decided to f**k this sh*t and i'm logging off. Maybe it works for large fleet fights but damn, sucks so hard elsewhere. As far as bad ideas go, this beats Captains Quarters. |
|
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
314
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 19:28:00 -
[71] - Quote
Boratz wrote:K-IYNW 18:00 21/01/2012
There's a gigantic fight going on on this node. I guarantee you that if TiDi wasn't active, you'd be taking >5minutes to turn any modules on.
We can debate whether that's better or worse than time slowing down, but let's not pretend like this system would have been cupcakes and roses without TiDi. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 19:52:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Boratz wrote:K-IYNW 18:00 21/01/2012 There's a gigantic fight going on on this node. I guarantee you that if TiDi wasn't active, you'd be taking >5minutes to turn any modules on. We can debate whether that's better or worse than time slowing down, but let's not pretend like this system would have been cupcakes and roses without TiDi. CCP Veritas. Is the node reinforced? And how close is the tech now to hot swap full nodes and reinforce them on the fly, while spliting off none contested systems? |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
315
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 20:00:00 -
[73] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Veritas. Is the node reinforced? And how close is the tech now to hot swap full nodes and reinforce them on the fly, while spliting off none contested systems? No, there are 75 systems on that node today.
The tech to move systems around has recently gone through a very nice refactoring, but remains destructive - people in the moved systems are still disconnected. It's definitely on our wishlist to make this non-destructive, but work toward that goal is not currently on anyone's roadmap that I'm aware of. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
mkint
719
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 20:00:00 -
[74] - Quote
Boratz wrote:K-IYNW 18:00 21/01/2012
Time dilation is awful, all locals logged off. How anyone can call this amazing when it's just lag with a different name, even worse it is self imposed lag from CCP.
I can just hear the tech guys at CCP "Oh Hans, lets give lag a name, make a cool video and everyone will love it" We can introduce lag I mean Time Dilation into the next patch, oh this is going to be so awesome"
The problem with tidi is that it was advertised. Stupid people read advertisements and not devblogs.
Tidi is so (slightly) technical, noobs all over new eden have no idea wtf to expect from it. ArrTeeEffEmm, dude. You're gagging on a mouthful of stupid. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 20:10:00 -
[75] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Veritas. Is the node reinforced? And how close is the tech now to hot swap full nodes and reinforce them on the fly, while spliting off none contested systems? No, there are 75 systems on that node today. The tech to move systems around has recently gone through a very nice refactoring, but remains destructive - people in the moved systems are still disconnected. It's definitely on our wishlist to make this non-destructive, but work toward that goal is not currently on anyone's roadmap that I'm aware of. Thanks for the info. Looks like TiDi is a success. Any luck tracking down the group jump issue to make it more smooth for pilots in TiDi situations now that we have groups of 500 or so moving around together? |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
315
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 20:14:00 -
[76] - Quote
Salpun wrote:Thanks for the info. Looks like TiDi is a success. Any luck tracking down the group jump issue to make it more smooth for pilots in TiDi situations now that we have groups of 500 or so moving around together? It was actually one of the first cases of extreme load that we identified once thin clients came online. It's one complicated bugger to fix though - there have been some improvements to the process as we have epiphanies, but the real fix is going to be a bare-fisted brawl.
In other words, we know what we need to do, but it's a large project so we've been hitting easier things with sizable wins instead. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 20:20:00 -
[77] - Quote
Devblog on Monday? |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
315
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 21:02:00 -
[78] - Quote
Salpun wrote: Devblog on Monday? Probably not tbh. Bit of a deployment on Tuesday, I'm rather swamped. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 21:07:00 -
[79] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Salpun wrote: Devblog on Monday? Probably not tbh. Bit of a deployment on Tuesday, I'm rather swamped. Yay 1.1 The word of this fight needs to go main stream on the gaming news and the easiest way is a devblog or press release. Looking forward to all the pretty graphs. |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
315
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 21:20:00 -
[80] - Quote
Salpun wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Salpun wrote: Devblog on Monday? Probably not tbh. Bit of a deployment on Tuesday, I'm rather swamped. Yay 1.1 The word of this fight needs to go main stream on the gaming news and the easiest way is a devblog or press release. Looking forward to all the pretty graphs. It's true. Hopefully the deployment goes smoothly and I can put something together by the end of the week. We'll see how it goes... CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
|
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 21:20:00 -
[81] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Veritas. Is the node reinforced? And how close is the tech now to hot swap full nodes and reinforce them on the fly, while spliting off none contested systems? No, there are 75 systems on that node today. The tech to move systems around has recently gone through a very nice refactoring, but remains destructive - people in the moved systems are still disconnected. It's definitely on our wishlist to make this non-destructive, but work toward that goal is not currently on anyone's roadmap that I'm aware of.
Would it be possible to "hiccup" the system, everything freezes and everyone session changes into the new node? Place a further one minute cooldown before ships are placed to get everything loaded and flash a message "node overloaded, moving to reinforced, please request a reinforced node for your large fleet fights next time." Also include a loading bar so people know how long they have to go. It doesn't have to be seamless, especially if there's an indication that this is partially a penalty TO for failing to properly request a node in advance.
|
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
315
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 21:30:00 -
[82] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:[quote=CCP Veritas]Would it be possible to "hiccup" the system, everything freezes and everyone session changes into the new node? Place a further one minute cooldown before ships are placed to get everything loaded and flash a message "node overloaded, moving to reinforced, please request a reinforced node for your large fleet fights next time." Also include a loading bar so people know how long they have to go. It doesn't have to be seamless, especially if there's an indication that this is partially a penalty TO for failing to properly request a node in advance.
It's possible of course, but our systems are not architected in such a way that makes this easy. Off the top of my head I'd guesstimate about a year's worth of work for someone who's already up to speed with the cluster solution and the gameplay implementation, plus a heavy dollop of QA time. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
338
|
Posted - 2012.01.21 22:33:00 -
[83] - Quote
After another fight which was mostly under TD, I have to say that logi loves it... its painful, horrible, and terrible, but in a way that can be worked with, instead of being totally random like before. Fix the jump gates and I think it will be just about the perfect solution(other than eliminating lag totally, which so far seem to require turning off the servers) o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Benedic
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 00:50:00 -
[84] - Quote
I just wanted to publically thank CCP for tidi! This is my first fleet fight since it's been introduced and it is the first fleet fight in literally -years- that I was able to participate in properly without lagging to the point that everything was completely broken. I actually quit playing Eve back during the initial war against BoB because i lost ship after ship to the same situation where I'd warp in and be dead before I ever loaded grid. It would take 45-50 minutes to load.
Today I was able to fully participate (albeit painfully slowly so I missed 99% of kills while watching the 20 second locks) but I was able to load grids and warp in and out relatively well. We were under huge time dilation but at least when I engaged modules they activated.
I am very much happier as a result of this - I stopped doing large fleet stuff altogether because of how bad it had been over the last years but I will log in much more often if this is the kind of experience I'm going to have in future.
I know you've taken a lot of flak for this feature in this thread but I think it's -amazing-. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
270
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 06:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
As I understand it, tons of people fought (~2000 pilots over several hours), two titans, some dreads and a metric crapton of subcapitals died while the node didn't die. This alone makes TiDi a huge win.
The fact that it happened on an unreinforced node that also ran 70something other systems on it (who naturally got TiDi:d hard as well) is nothing short of amazing. If some carebear five systems over was "lagged" by 10% TiDi, it is pointless to whine - without it he would've been staring at the loading screen trying to log back on as the node would have died horribly.
I unsubbed from EVE after Dominion broke fleet fights to a point of unplayability and resubbed when news of this deploying to live servers was announced. Glad to see it working.
http://dog-net.org/brdoc/?brid=3453 = overview of the battle. I hope I'm not blapped by the mods for posting this link, it is merely to illustrate the massive size of the battle.
Alliances involved: 33 Corporations involved: 252 Players involved: 2073
|
Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Ev0ke
126
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 09:46:00 -
[86] - Quote
It would be pretty cool if ccp could state which level of tidi were there if IT had happened on a reinforced node
I heard mostly positive comments from those involved |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
85
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 10:02:00 -
[87] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Veritas. Is the node reinforced? And how close is the tech now to hot swap full nodes and reinforce them on the fly, while spliting off none contested systems? No, there are 75 systems on that node today. The tech to move systems around has recently gone through a very nice refactoring, but remains destructive - people in the moved systems are still disconnected. It's definitely on our wishlist to make this non-destructive, but work toward that goal is not currently on anyone's roadmap that I'm aware of. Would it be possible to "hiccup" the system, everything freezes and everyone session changes into the new node? Place a further one minute cooldown before ships are placed to get everything loaded and flash a message "node overloaded, moving to reinforced, please request a reinforced node for your large fleet fights next time." Also include a loading bar so people know how long they have to go. It doesn't have to be seamless, especially if there's an indication that this is partially a penalty TO for failing to properly request a node in advance.
We use blade clusters where I work.
Dynamic load sharing is EXTREMELY hard to to do, particularly in performance oriented high bandwidth applications, it literally took us 5 years to to mange it on an elemental basis (as in elements of a larger system), we haven't gotten it to a true load determinate allocation yet. |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 11:39:00 -
[88] - Quote
Overall a great feature!
However, TD becomes a huge problem when combined with lag. :D
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
339
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 11:50:00 -
[89] - Quote
John Maynard Keynes wrote:Overall a great feature!
However, TD becomes a huge problem when combined with lag. :D
uh... I think you fail to understand what TD is.
Its FORMALIZED lag, so that the system has a way to handle it gracefully. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
85
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 12:33:00 -
[90] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:John Maynard Keynes wrote:Overall a great feature!
However, TD becomes a huge problem when combined with lag. :D
uh... I think you fail to understand what TD is. Its FORMALIZED lag, so that the system has a way to handle it gracefully.
Not to mention the player.
Everything happens in the right order, so you don't go from cruising along fighting to back in station without ever being yellowboxed. |
|
Zleon Leigh
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 13:08:00 -
[91] - Quote
So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
340
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 13:19:00 -
[92] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... Jita is getting TD? All right, its time to go do some jita undock camping o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Finde learth
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 13:39:00 -
[93] - Quote
Sluht Hunter wrote:[quote=DarkAegix] *note* I realize that not all %94 of players not in the battle will suffer the Tidi but many will. Basic logic dictates, The needs of the many out weigh the needs of the few. How many will? Do you know TiDi only affect few systems? |
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CCP Lemur
169
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 13:44:00 -
[94] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs....
I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future.
QA Guy | Special Ops Picture up to your IMGination. |
|
Zleon Leigh
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:42:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future.
I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:44:00 -
[96] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future. I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME. And some where else 1000 pilots are shooting another 1000 pilots in the face fair trade in my book. |
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra Gallente Federation
274
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:46:00 -
[97] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future. I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME.
I think you fail to understand that single physical server can run multiple solar systems.
In the case of this huge fight, reportedly the same node (server computer) ran 75 solar systems. One of them has a huge fight and all 75 get time dilated because they are all on the same server.
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:52:00 -
[98] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future. I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME. I think you fail to understand that single physical server can run multiple solar systems. In the case of this huge fight, reportedly the same node (server computer) ran 75 solar systems. One of them has a huge fight and all 75 get time dilated because they are all on the same server. If its that bad jump clone to high or ls and do something there.
or play on an alt. Hopefully the system they want to fight in today got reinforced and the lag is only going to be the in route traffic which should help alot. |
Zleon Leigh
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:54:00 -
[99] - Quote
Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future. I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME. I think you fail to understand that single physical server can run multiple solar systems. In the case of this huge fight, reportedly the same node (server computer) ran 75 solar systems. One of them has a huge fight and all 75 get time dilated because they are all on the same server.
LOL Trust me... I understand. There is no reason for TiDi to kick in for all systems on a node - that would just be stupid. You dilate the stressed systems and fork off the low end systems to other nodes. You don't turn the clock down on the entire CPU stack.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Zleon Leigh
67
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:56:00 -
[100] - Quote
Salpun wrote: If its that bad jump clone to high or ls and do something there.
or play on an alt. Hopefully the system they want to fight in today got reinforced and the lag is only going to be the in route traffic which should help alot.
ROFLMAO - it's not bad to play under. But it shows technical fail.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 15:58:00 -
[101] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Salpun wrote:CCP Veritas. Is the node reinforced? And how close is the tech now to hot swap full nodes and reinforce them on the fly, while spliting off none contested systems? No, there are 75 systems on that node today. The tech to move systems around has recently gone through a very nice refactoring, but remains destructive - people in the moved systems are still disconnected. It's definitely on our wishlist to make this non-destructive, but work toward that goal is not currently on anyone's roadmap that I'm aware of. That ability is still in the planing stages. I think Veritas as switched to client lag for the moment. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
58
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:18:00 -
[102] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future. I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME. I think you fail to understand that single physical server can run multiple solar systems. In the case of this huge fight, reportedly the same node (server computer) ran 75 solar systems. One of them has a huge fight and all 75 get time dilated because they are all on the same server. LOL Trust me... I understand. There is no reason for TiDi to kick in for all systems on a node - that would just be stupid. You dilate the stressed systems and fork off the low end systems to other nodes. You don't turn the clock down on the entire CPU stack.
its VERY evident that you dont understand! ill put it as plainly as i can...
a metric **** ton of systems are handled by 1 server node and all of eve are separated into these big clusters of systems that are handled by one node or another. and by that i dont mean all of eve is handled by 2 nodes, theyre handled by a fair few nodes.
A server node is a term for server blade, the ones u see in rack cases in big companies, its like your computer at home but more likely, quite a bit more powerful. Almost everything a player does in game in one of these clusters of systems are handled by this one computer. please PLEASE note the use of the word almost in that sentence. Certain things like requiring info from databases (eg market transactions etc...) can request info from other nodes.
but the main point is that theres 1 computer with only a finite amount of processing power able to process what happens in those systems.
before Time DIlation when theres a fleet fight occuring on one of those systems its like back at home on your computer, 600 or more people at a house party wanting to open and use 600 different applications all at the same time expecting it to work and load everything straight away and run smoothly. some will work before others and some people only wanting to write something on notepad will take longer to do so than sum1 opening up a file on photoshop.
You could look at the problem by saying we'll process stuff one at a time and people will just have to wait. this process of waiting for your turn is called SERVER LAG. people hate it cause it means if your fighting in a time sensitive battle, you can die way before ever realising it.
Time Dialation is basically a process that says "woah, calm the **** down, i can process all of your stuff at the same time, just bit by bit. its not ideal i know, and things will take longer to do, but you'll all see stuff happening sooner rather than later."
so just to clarify...
TiDI can only kick in on all systems on the node cause theyre all handled by the same computer resources aka 1 physical CPU + RAM etc...
Eve Onlines Server Architecture cant remap players to different server blades without forcing them to disconnect. and if uve got like 75 systems on that server blade, thats quite a lot of systems to push to other places. and possibly a fair few people that WILL complain that theyre being randomly disconected from eve for no apparent reason. that kinda thing can cause people to loose expensive ships, for example if theyre in a DED complex or an Incursion.
Also theres no stack of CPUs on one server blade. the server architecture is not multi-cpu compatible, and the servers clock speed doesnt go down when TIDi is active.. if anything its running at absolute max clockspeed possible.
... damn i think ive just been trolled :/
|
Zleon Leigh
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:22:00 -
[103] - Quote
Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :) Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:38:00 -
[104] - Quote
On the one hand TiDi is a great feature, however it introduces new problems the people will be bitching about sooner or later.
The time on the TiDi node runs slower, so that it becomes easier to send reinforcements in and continue the fight infinitely. (1min on TiDi node = 10 minutes on other nodes).
It is now easier to react to certain situations. You can see dictors coming closer switch your targets in time so that they can't bubble your supers. You have more time to broadcast for reps as soon as you see that you get yellowboxed.
This happens when you try to fight the symptoms and not the cause.
New Eden became "too small" due to jump drives and bridges. Even if you rf 100 structures all around eden, the defender can wait till the enemy arrives at one of them and deploy his entire blob to this particular system. This would be by far more difficult without the awesome mobility we have now. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
342
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:42:00 -
[105] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :) Then you should realize that distributed load processing across an HPC cluster using a single threaded application(which the eve server is, being written in stackless python) would require a complete rewrite of the core system, mean many man years dedicated to just that task, and then more dedicated to re-writing everything else to work with it.
Its actually a current work in progress, as they convert code to C++(last I heard) and that will resolve a large number of the core issues like this. Til then they have to maintain the current codebase actively, and continue work on it to keep the game alive and kicking.
But, I don't have to tell someone who used to design supercomputers that o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Zleon Leigh
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
Correct. So what the should have been done is limit fleet engagements to what was practical for the given software arch and hardware that meets business goals (can't afford super-shiny boxes) and satisfies the customer base (not just one particular group of players). Instead they continue to reach for the pie.... Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
342
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:50:00 -
[107] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Correct. So what the should have been done is limit fleet engagements to what was practical for the given software arch and hardware that meets business goals (can't afford super-shiny boxes) and satisfies the customer base (not just one particular group of players). Instead they continue to reach for the pie.... And how do you limit engagements? hard cap on number of people in a system? We will just pile that many people into the system so no one can challenge us.
Limiting engagements has been batted around for years, and no one has come up with a solution that can't be gamed. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Zleon Leigh
68
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 19:55:00 -
[108] - Quote
Dunno.. but no matter what solution they reach for this way it can have the same consequence - ever larger groups will break it, with ever more catastrophic results. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
342
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:02:00 -
[109] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Dunno.. but no matter what solution they reach for this way it can have the same consequence - ever larger groups will break it, with ever more catastrophic results. TD, in theory, fixes that(or at least helps mitigate it).
With the current technical limitations(put in place by people who mostly don't work there as devs anymore) they can't move systems from one node to another without kicking everyone in the affected systems off the game. We are in a be patient holding pattern for more significant fixes(as I said, you can see from dev blogs they are converting the codebase to C++ slowly but surely, which will allow them alot more options) and the bandaid fixes and mitigation fixes will keep coming to try and keep up with how we break the system.
Oh yeah, you also have to remember that CCP is 100% a Microsoft shop, so all the servers are running on a windows server platform, the database is MSSQL, etc etc etc. In that building, its either microsoft, or in house, which might explain some of the other behavior we see. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
58
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 20:54:00 -
[110] - Quote
and im pretty sure that the mssql thing is an 8 year old issue too... cause at that time for a start up company it probably seemed a sensible choice given their location, assets and available employee skillpool.
im fairly certain every dev there knows now that unix/linux would probably be greatly preferable, but eves server codebase i guarantee u cant be ported to it without a significant re-write! u might find that Dust514 will be written server side to be used on unix/linux and just coded to allow information to be translated between eve and dust servers, and most likely only possible due to outside investors (eg Sony).
but until ccp have the funds available to dedicate significant dev man years to Eve Online itself, fixes to the current system are the only viable option on the table. and TiDi is a shining example of what can be done on a limited system with some creative thinking and coding.
i for one think Veritas is a f**king legend =) |
|
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
9
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 21:59:00 -
[111] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Dunno.. but no matter what solution they reach for this way it can have the same consequence - ever larger groups will break it, with ever more catastrophic results.
Catastrophic like "some people elsewhere experience lag"?
That's not very catastrophic at all. I'm pretty much certain that previously a 1k man fight on a node split 75 ways would have crashed the entire node a year ago. Now, it slows down a bit.
Oh, as they say, noes. Given the choice between 0.1% of EVEs star systems slowing down for a while, and never having any four-figure-pilot fleet fights, I think this'll do. |
Finde learth
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
4
|
Posted - 2012.01.22 23:46:00 -
[112] - Quote
DeLaBu wrote:It would be nice to see a video of time dilation in action in a real fight (not one of the SISI tests).
Anyone has a link to something like that? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L4-gSIRssw&feature=player_embedded |
Jita Rich
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 00:47:00 -
[113] - Quote
As a PVP'r: TiDi is freaking awesome. Gate movement seems smoother. Modules actually work in fights (~400 total pilots). It does seem to come up pretty often though. Especially when bridging through titans.
As a PVP'r carebearing: Complete crap. It's really hard to earn isk under time dilation. Unfortunately TiDi is limited to within the eve server and does not apply to real life. Therefore, my time is being devalued in the game.
I think TiDi could scale better if it worked on a per system basis rather than per node. I understand this means less performance, but it just doesn't make sense to be slowed down if you're 10 jumps away from a 100man moving fleet. An alliance with many players could easily use the current implementation to meta by slowing down other players. They wouldn't even need more than rookie ships. Basically its DDoS w/ spaceships. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
58
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 01:31:00 -
[114] - Quote
Jita Rich wrote:
I think TiDi could scale better if it worked on a per system basis rather than per node. I understand this means less performance, but it just doesn't make sense to be slowed down if you're 10 jumps away from a 100man moving fleet. An alliance with many players could easily use the current implementation to meta by slowing down other players. They wouldn't even need more than rookie ships. Basically its DDoS w/ spaceships.
well it can work on this basis, but it requires ccp to remap a single system to the reinforced node at a downtime before the fight takes place. unfortunately that means people predicting a fight to take place when theres no actual guarantee it will.
even if the fight does take place on the reinforced node as predicted, generally theres several fights that take place in and around the area that can collectively impact the rest of the mapped systems.
so you see it is possible, its just not do-able in a dynamic ad-hoc way currently. |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2886
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 01:46:00 -
[115] - Quote
Wonders if the next hurdle is going
Dynamic Node Remaps
DynR
So that when massive amounts of lag pops up on one node they start shuffeling off the low load solar systems off of it. (much better than shoving a high load to a dedicated first.
|
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
179
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 02:01:00 -
[116] - Quote
Nova Fox wrote:Wonders if the next hurdle is going
Dynamic Node Remaps
DynR
So that when massive amounts of lag pops up on one node they start shuffeling off the low load solar systems off of it. (much better than shoving a high load to a dedicated first. Depends how many large fleet fights happen in the next month. I think the issue will be solved faster with core game play decisions/ functionality. All this hinges on when the crime watch rewrite gets done. Take that off the main core, fix the client lag when you have a large number of pilots in the overview, possibly while breaking it up into more watch list type windows and then we can go back to server side issues.
That sayed the earlier DynR gets in the game the better. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
118
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 07:59:00 -
[117] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Its actually a current work in progress, as they convert code to C++(last I heard) and that will resolve a large number of the core issues like this. Most execution time is already spent on C++ code held together by Stackless Python "glue". The problem here is Pythons GIL, that effectively serializes execution. Here is a devblog with some snippets. |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
827
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 12:39:00 -
[118] - Quote
If someone actually filled the fleet fight notification form to gain their own special super node for that massive fleet fight, there would be a lot less baseless crying in this thread.
Also, time dilation across an entire cluster is better than everyone in the cluster having their modules break and client crash. |
Vegare
Das zweite Konglomerat The Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 13:18:00 -
[119] - Quote
I participated in two ~1400 man fights last weekend and have to say: TiDi is awesome!
Everyone who was there knows fights like those would have not been possible not long ago.
To all those whiners: obviously there are lots of gameplay issues to being dilated down to 0.1 but its IS gameplay contrary to being blackscreened. |
Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises Tactical Narcotics Team
60
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 17:07:00 -
[120] - Quote
I too was in Branch this past weekend in ~1400 man fleet fights.
TiDi is the bomb, it rocks, one of the best additions for big blob fests.
I actually got on my first titan kill which was because of TiDi & the fact the titan just couldn't log off like in the old days.
I can only see TiDi getting better & better in the future. Way to go CCP. |
|
Lyron-Baktos
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 18:00:00 -
[121] - Quote
experienced TiDi over the weekend and was in a system, maybe more than 1, and it was just out gang of 9 people. It sucked On holiday. -áIn some other world. Where the music of the radio was a labyrinth of sonorous colours. To a bright centre of absolute convicton. -áWhere the dripping patchouli was more than scent. -á It was a sun |
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
2891
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 19:47:00 -
[122] - Quote
Well here is an update I found eve searching around
CCP is already considering DynR (Dynamic Remaps is this the offical name for it now?) from the devs so far they commented that shuffeling server loads with curent technology is 'destructive' or in lamen terms forces players to log offs, and they're currenlty working on a way to not cause that so that the load shuffel can happen without the disconnects.
Either way should be interesting I rather be a small lag spike if it means nobody gets booted off then tidi dials a bit down as things speed back up with the load shuffeled off.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
875
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 20:24:00 -
[123] - Quote
Quote:experienced TiDi over the weekend and was in a system, maybe more than 1, and it was just out gang of 9 people. It sucked
Again, you were likely on a node that a large battle was happening in. The battle may have been no where near you on the map, yet you could have been on the same node. If you think about it, that is actually wise programming.
Would you prefer a slow down, or for the game to inexplicably (from your point of view) crash and not let you back in for awhile... Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Rasz Lin
43
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 20:52:00 -
[124] - Quote
-Every SOL is running IN ONE THREAD ON ONE CORE (usually more SOLs on one core, unless its reinforced system).
-You cant partition load on few cores, you cant even divide SOL into grids so if there are 10 battles in one SOL they ALL run in ONE THREAD ON ONE CORE. -There is no mechanism for live migration, CCP cant just freeze SOL and migrate it to another core :/ It should be easy now that they figured out time dilation - freezing is just slowing time to infinity :)
Sarina Rhoda wrote: >Correct me if i'm wrong but time dilation wasn't created to fix lag..... Time dilation was introduced to make fights fairer under >extreme lag conditions. Previously the server would just randomly accept some peoples commands while completely >ignoring other peoples. This meant some people were able to fight as if there was nothing wrong whilst other people were >completely locked out.
>Time dilation was simply a method of slowing everything down so that the server has a fair chance and processing >everyone's commands.
not server, one THREAD bound to ONE cpu core :((( Instead of letting server compute more of the battle they are throttling the battle to "fit" on one CPU.
Zleon Leigh wrote: >TiDi is implemented because there does not exist a hardware solution that will handle the computation load and also the >time of flight problem across the net.
Not true, There are FPS games (for example Mount And Blade Warband) currently that run smooth with >200 players bashing each other with melee/thrown/shooting weapons in the face. With server tick time 0.1sec (means steps per second stuff is updated server side). Eve has server tick time 1sec so by extrapolating those FPS games could handle 2000 FPS players at 1sec tick, all unning around, changing directions, waving melee weapons, hitting each other, shooting at each other, all on one map. EVE doesnt really have directions, when it comes to calculating tracking it doesnt matter where your ship is pointing. EVE is EASY compared to FPS engines, all you need to worry is position and status of incoming/outgoing damage.
+There was an example of optimisation on dev blog ~year ago that showcased some piece of code that was O(n2) for every missile shot (or just object in space, dont rememer). There are still monsters like that in the code. Stupid client side example - EVERY TIME session changes (jump/undock) your ASSET window is drawn at least 3 times. -First it is initialized from some dataset in the memory, drawn with default alphabetical order of items. - then it is REINITIALIZED and sorted according to your selection. - then it is AGAIN reinitialized and drawn with remembered positions and station item trees open/closed.
Whole GUI was refactored, yet it is still inefficient and is redrawing parts of the screen that dont change at all, it seems nothing is being kept in buffers, compositioning just doesnt exist. You open Market screen and it will call GPU EVERY frame drawing every single font one by one instead of generating that window ONCE into a bitmap buffer and just using it untill something changes. Even Android finally uses proper compositioning and only redraws part of the screen that change - GUI in your phone is smarter than GUI in this game :)
They are working on those things, just toooo slow. There was a time Market was running on same cpu core as the rest of the system, afaik now there are dedicated market nodes. Next step would be enabling separate grids to run on different cores and live migration between CPU cores, preferably over the network so they could migrate them between servers and not only between cpus on same machine. Of course best case scenario would be rewritting "battle code" into something MULTITHREADED so one big battle can use more than one CPU on a Node (nodes are multi CPU, CPUs have HT) dividing load. Calculating distances, misses, damages, movements, it could all be multithreaded and done at the same time instead of doing it in sequence.
In simple terms tidi SUCKS MONKEY BALLS and is a clear evidence you rather ducttape crap together like minmatar battleship than fix fundamental problems. DROP python server side already. |
Rasz Lin
43
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 21:05:00 -
[125] - Quote
Michael Banki wrote:I was in a big fight, there was TIDI but lag was BAD. Might be that tidi was juming on and off alot or that I had lag on my client.
So could tidi change SLOWER if there are 1000 ppl in system. And another thing:
Woulndnt it be great if there was a client lag indicator?
So that we know when to get a better computer...
its simple - when your framerate drops its your computer, or more precisely its lame Python code trying to fill all the brackets info that gets displayed on your screen. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
878
|
Posted - 2012.01.23 21:46:00 -
[126] - Quote
No, you are correct.
It would be a much better idea to shut down EVE completely for a few years while it is rewritten to function as you describe.
Except, of course, nobody but you appears to want that... and your proposed solutions are problematic at best in light of the information CCP has already provided as to the "hows' and "why's" of the EVE code base. Revenge should not stop at the ship!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 11:16:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP I just want to say Time Dilation is awesome
Large fights are possible again, EVE does has a future |
Florestan Bronstein
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
396
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 11:22:00 -
[128] - Quote
Rasz Lin wrote: Not true, There are FPS games (for example Mount And Blade Warband) currently that run smooth with >200 players bashing each other with melee/thrown/shooting weapons in the face. With server tick time 0.1sec (means steps per second stuff is updated server side). Eve has server tick time 1sec so by extrapolating those FPS games could handle 2000 FPS players at 1sec tick, all unning around, changing directions, waving melee weapons, hitting each other, shooting at each other, all on one map.
if I have to update 200 players over each other player's status every 0.1 sec how many operations per second is that?
if I have to update 2000 players over each other player's status every 1 sec how many operations per second is that?
edit: as for the actual topic - experienced TiDi when undocking in a ~50 man fleet from a station. Cleared within 20-30s after everybody had finished undocking but still annoying. Of course I might just not have noticed the lag created of undocking such a small fleet before and the TiDi indicator only makes it obvious but still - would never have expected that this creates issues with server load. |
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
836
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 11:23:00 -
[129] - Quote
Lyron-Baktos wrote:experienced TiDi over the weekend and was in a system, maybe more than 1, and it was just out gang of 9 people. It sucked I'm sorry, but there was probably a 500+ blob a few systems away. Without tidi you ship would have exploded in lag, and client crashed to desktop. |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
353
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 11:34:00 -
[130] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:Rasz Lin wrote: Not true, There are FPS games (for example Mount And Blade Warband) currently that run smooth with >200 players bashing each other with melee/thrown/shooting weapons in the face. With server tick time 0.1sec (means steps per second stuff is updated server side). Eve has server tick time 1sec so by extrapolating those FPS games could handle 2000 FPS players at 1sec tick, all unning around, changing directions, waving melee weapons, hitting each other, shooting at each other, all on one map.
if I have to update 200 players over each other player's status every 0.1 sec how many operations per second is that? if I have to update 2000 players over each other player's status every 1 sec how many operations per second is that? edit: as for the actual topic - experienced TiDi when undocking in a ~50 man fleet from a station. Cleared within 20-30s after everybody had finished undocking but still annoying. Of course I might just not have noticed the lag created of undocking such a small fleet before and the TiDi indicator only makes it obvious but still - would never have expected that this creates issues with server load. Wait til your 800 man blob hits a jump gate.....
Basically, session changes lag the hell out of the system, and tidi makes it screamingly obvious. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
|
Iniquita
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
28
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 12:02:00 -
[131] - Quote
Warping seems to be an issue, TiDI warps can take forever and it seems impossible to cancel warps with a control space anymore. |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
160
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 13:28:00 -
[132] - Quote
Better than black screen. Still ****.
Piloting anything that has to actually move or kite is almost impossible.
I personally would prefer hard limits and proper fights. |
mirel yirrin
Ore Mongers BricK sQuAD.
15
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:03:00 -
[133] - Quote
Time Dilation was activated in BWF a few weeks ago. The 500 man combined fleets three way brawl that was going on at the time went for laggy as usual to completely lagless and highly responsive. The frame rate suffered a bit for me, but that is because I have everything turned up to max + sound during fleet battles, for extra immersion. Was down from usual 60FPS to about 25 - 30.
To sum;
zero module lag zero ship command i.e warp commands, movement commands lag maximum awesome.
Darius III for CSM! Or your money back! |
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
355
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 14:06:00 -
[134] - Quote
Holy One wrote:Better than black screen. Still ****.
Piloting anything that has to actually move or kite is almost impossible.
I personally would prefer hard limits and proper fights. I had no problems... Once I realized that it was taking 10x as long to accelerate/turn/etc, just like it was taking them 10x as long to lock/fire/etc.
At least its fair. o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
56
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 16:23:00 -
[135] - Quote
Vegare wrote:I participated in two ~1400 man fights last weekend and have to say: TiDi is awesome!
Everyone who was there knows fights like those would have not been possible not long ago.
To all those whiners: obviously there are lots of gameplay issues to being dilated down to 0.1 but its IS gameplay contrary to being blackscreened. If I read all those comments correctly this will happen:
- less reinforced fleet fights (because 1400+ is possible on a 75 system node and the TiDi is not much worse than on a reinforced node.. plus you can fight anytime, anywhere, no need to fill out forms and stick to it) - more fleet fights anytime, anywhere - more bystanders being pulled into TiDi in other sol-threads - no way for bystanders to avoid TiDi nodes (is there a map option for this? am I supposed to move to enjoy TiDi = 1 ratting?) bystanders become really mad
@CCP Veritas or Lemur How do you intend to tackle this scenario?
Is there any possibility for the thread causing the whole node to get a TiDi < 1 to be restricted to 95% of the maximum load possible AFTER all other nodes that are peacefull and quiet have been processing their stuff at TiDi = 1? Can your technology do that?
Example of what I'm thinking: Node_XYZ running 50 sol threads (CPU usage 30%, each thread is being monitored for it's usage, breathing room would be 70%) 49 threads handle the usual stuff with a low population. Thread 50 is becoming overloaded and causes the CPU load to go up. The other threads stay within their power envelope Thread 50 should now be restricted to increase it's power envelope so that the total load of the node doesn't exceed 95%. The other 49 threads stay at TiDi = 1 and have a 'breathing room' of 5% if any of the threads needs a bigger power envelope.
The point is.. thread 50 will have a TiDi <<< 1 anyway, but why should all the other threads on that node suffer the same fate?
Asking the same the other way round: Do you have any metrics that would show the benefit of the whole node being at a TiDi <<< 1 versus 49 threads at TiDi = 1 and 1 thread at TiDi <<<< 1 ?
|
Avo Lina
The Lone Patrol Tactical Narcotics Team
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 21:55:00 -
[136] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Jarnis McPieksu wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:CCP Lemur wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So - we're seeing TiDi engage in empty systems and in Jita. Fail? Oh wait!! By engaging it in empty systems you can lower how much hardware you need to field. Guess returning nodes to vendor is next step after layoffs.... I'm not a Veritas but I assume that since some nodes host a bunch of low load systems at once TiDi would kick in for all of these when one gets a sudden spike of activity. Or would you rather have the ones just screwed without any indicators? And I'm sure we are not giving any nodes back rather getting better ones like we have always been doing in the past and will continue to be doing in the future. I'm in a 0.0 system with 17 pilots in it, several docked in station, NO FIGHTING, peaceful as can be - TiDI kicked in. LAME. I think you fail to understand that single physical server can run multiple solar systems. In the case of this huge fight, reportedly the same node (server computer) ran 75 solar systems. One of them has a huge fight and all 75 get time dilated because they are all on the same server. LOL Trust me... I understand. There is no reason for TiDi to kick in for all systems on a node - that would just be stupid. You dilate the stressed systems and fork off the low end systems to other nodes. You don't turn the clock down on the entire CPU stack.
You are so FFing dumb, you don't even realize how stupid the nonsense is you are spewing forth |
LethalGeek
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2012.01.24 22:00:00 -
[137] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :) You're either lying or purposefully ignoring what people are telling you about how the current server software is written. |
Othran
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
151
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 11:35:00 -
[138] - Quote
Florestan Bronstein wrote:Of course I might just not have noticed the lag created of undocking such a small fleet before and the TiDi indicator only makes it obvious but still - would never have expected that this creates issues with server load.
Is it a fleet where individual members are likely to have a lot of bookmarks?
|
Tallian Saotome
Fractured Core Fatal Ascension
361
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 11:44:00 -
[139] - Quote
LethalGeek wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :) You're either lying or purposefully ignoring what people are telling you about how the current server software is written. Given how long its been since he posted, I'm gonna say he didn't realize it was an artificial software limitation, instead thinking we were saying it was hardware.
Seems to understand the issue now ;)
o/`-á Lord, I want to be a gynecologist.. KY, rubber gloves, and a flashlight.-á o/` |
Holy One
SniggWaffe EVE Corporation 123566322353
165
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 13:47:00 -
[140] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:Holy One wrote:Better than black screen. Still ****.
Piloting anything that has to actually move or kite is almost impossible.
I personally would prefer hard limits and proper fights. I had no problems... Once I realized that it was taking 10x as long to accelerate/turn/etc, just like it was taking them 10x as long to lock/fire/etc. At least its fair.
*shrug
I don't have any desire to spend 4-5 hrs doing what normally takes 2. |
|
Zleon Leigh
75
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 22:44:00 -
[141] - Quote
Tallian Saotome wrote:LethalGeek wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :) You're either lying or purposefully ignoring what people are telling you about how the current server software is written. Given how long its been since he posted, I'm gonna say he didn't realize it was an artificial software limitation, instead thinking we were saying it was hardware. Seems to understand the issue now ;)
Sorry - been busy.
Correct. Didn't realize that EVE software had been implemented so poorly. Thought all the 70's programmers had retired before they had a chance to work on EVE. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Zleon Leigh
75
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 22:45:00 -
[142] - Quote
Avo Lina wrote: You are so FFing dumb, you don't even realize how stupid the nonsense is you are spewing forth
yep, that really sets you up on a pedestal. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Daedalus II
Helios Research Combat Mining and Logistics
86
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:46:00 -
[143] - Quote
I wonder if it would be possible to give all systems with less than 10 people on a node priority over those that actually cause the TiDi? That way in the 75 system on one node scenario, most of those systems would still not have any TiDi while those where the actual fighting happened maybe would have 91% slow down instead of 90% to compensate.
Basically if the system has less than 10 people in it, it is executed before anything else and can't be TiDi:ed, and that's ok, because there aren't enough people in those system to cause lag anyway. To compensate the high lag systems instead gets slightly higher TiDi. |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
62
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 04:00:00 -
[144] - Quote
Daedalus II wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to give all systems with less than 10 people on a node priority over those that actually cause the TiDi? That way in the 75 system on one node scenario, most of those systems would still not have any TiDi while those where the actual fighting happened maybe would have 91% slow down instead of 90% to compensate.
Basically if the system has less than 10 people in it, it is executed before anything else and can't be TiDi:ed, and that's ok, because there aren't enough people in those system to cause lag anyway. To compensate the high lag systems instead gets slightly higher TiDi. I asked the same at page 7.. So far no answer from CCP.
Anyone know when that Dev blog comes out?
PS: I wouldn't hardwire it to 10 pilots per system.. make it self adjusting, take the average population of a timespan and go from there for deciding which system is behaving within it's normal power envelope and which isn't. |
DeLaBu
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
27
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 05:11:00 -
[145] - Quote
I don't think anyone should hold their breath that CCP can set different time dilations on solar systems that share a node.
The simulation on a node happens in a serial fashion- they can's speed up just (your) bits of it. The whole simulation speeds up or slows down, like an un-jumpable queue at the bank. To go faster, they must move you to another queue.
And that, I'm guessing, would be dynamic node remapping. Then you will be moved off of the lagging node and not be affected anymore.
|
Mister Viceguy
Sinisenkuun Laguuni GREATER ITAMO MAFIA
1
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 06:11:00 -
[146] - Quote
The TD could be good in pvp and sort too, cant tell. But when mining its bad. Someone must hade massive battle somewhere even to there was none in 15jump radius. The system i mined hade td at 10% about 30min. Ammount people in system was only 3, so try to tweek it a bit please. Its hurting mining and and my wallet, and nerves when you cycle time is 18min. |
Zleon Leigh
75
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 06:18:00 -
[147] - Quote
Mister Viceguy wrote:The TD could be good in pvp and sort too, cant tell. But when mining its bad. Someone must hade massive battle somewhere even to there was none in 15jump radius. The system i mined hade td at 10% about 30min. Ammount people in system was only 3, so try to tweek it a bit please. Its hurting mining and and my wallet, and nerves when you cycle time is 18min.
This is a very interesting point. Mining sucks as it is... but under TiDI? That hits the wallet hard.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
69
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 17:03:00 -
[148] - Quote
DeLaBu wrote:I don't think anyone should hold their breath that CCP can set different time dilations on solar systems that share a node.
The simulation on a node happens in a serial fashion- they can's speed up just (your) bits of it. The whole simulation speeds up or slows down, like an un-jumpable queue at the bank. To go faster, they must move you to another queue.
And that, I'm guessing, would be dynamic node remapping. Then you will be moved off of the lagging node and not be affected anymore.
I might remember that wrong, but the graphs of that analyser software CCP started using in that dev blog a year ago (or was it a video) showed a serial processing of the physical simulations. And as the stuff is being band-aided together by python I wouldn't expect anything different.
So you got a cpu core, running each of the physical simulations, one after the other.. when all are done it idles and waits for the next tick.. then it starts from the front again.
I get what you're saying... CCP did code it so, that as soon as the node is being overloaded by one of the threads, it will increase tick time.. so all threads will fit into one tick. This means, every action stays within a tick, however long it might be. But as I wrote on page 7, this will create a lot of innocent bystanders being punished without ANY means to avoid the time dilatation. They don't take part in the fleet fight, but still have to suffer. And as the fleet fights work now and especially in not reinforced systems, anytime, anywhere, there will be a lot more unannounced fleet fights that will TiDi more people than before.
So, how about the thread that is getting overloaded will not adjust the tick time of all threads on that node, but instead will scale so, that while the node had 2 ticks, the thread will make just one.
something like this (thread 3 is overloading):
node tick 1: - thread 1, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 2, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 3, half the actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 0.5 - thread 4, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1
node tick 2: - thread 1, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 2, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 3, second half of the actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 0.5 - thread 4, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1
node tick 3: - thread 1, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 2, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 3, half the actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 0.5 - thread 4, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1
node tick 4: - thread 1, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 2, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 - thread 3, second half of the actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 0.5 - thread 4, all actions are done in 1 sec, TiDi = 1 |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.01.29 21:27:00 -
[149] - Quote
Flying a covops (covops, recons, stealthbombers) into/within a time dilated system is just a nightmare. For example, there's no way to tell the cause why we are still uncloaked after activating the cloak after going through a gate is from time dilation or from lag or something else, which means some players could accidentally rehit the button and actually decloak themselves to their doom. |
Jas Dor
Republic University Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 04:44:00 -
[150] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:Flying a covops (covops, recons, stealthbombers) into/within a time dilated system is just a nightmare. For example, there's no way to tell the cause why we are still uncloaked after activating the cloak after going through a gate is from time dilation or from lag or something else, which means some players could accidentally rehit the button and actually decloak themselves to their doom.
I suspect everyone in the hostile fleet is making a note of exactly where you are that they can decloak you even if you beat the lock (and you might not beat the lock now that the inty pilot has time to react).
|
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Doris Dents
Bat Country Goonswarm Federation
12
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 19:21:00 -
[151] - Quote
Makes travel a huge pain but huge fights are everything I've ever dreamed of(albeit in slo-mo)
On balance TiDi rocks! |
TheButcherPete
Titan Inc. Bloodbound.
54
|
Posted - 2012.01.30 20:02:00 -
[152] - Quote
Time Dilation triggered in Kalevala Expanse, up to -80% for nearly half an hour, there were no big fleet fights happen, not even any PVP. EVE was unplayable, there were ~50 people within the constellation.
TIME DILATION SENSITIVITY NEEDS TO BE FIXED. I'd rather lag to hell than deal with this crap. :3 I am Petey :3 Petey is smexy Smexy is Pete |
Zleon Leigh
80
|
Posted - 2012.01.31 02:14:00 -
[153] - Quote
So TiDi is hitting systems across the EVE universe, but the a vocal bunch says that it's not a problem because it isn't bothering anyone. Well it's directly impacting mining and missioning economics - and not in a good way. Grinding isk is bad enough without getting 10's of percentages knocked off your return.
So CCP - ever happen to think of anyone but the monster fleet fights??
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
38
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 21:54:00 -
[154] - Quote
Jas Dor wrote:Sarah Schneider wrote:Flying a covops (covops, recons, stealthbombers) into/within a time dilated system is just a nightmare. For example, there's no way to tell the cause why we are still uncloaked after activating the cloak after going through a gate is from time dilation or from lag or something else, which means some players could accidentally rehit the button and actually decloak themselves to their doom. I suspect everyone in the hostile fleet is making a note of exactly where you are that they can decloak you even if you beat the lock (and you might not beat the lock now that the inty pilot has time to react). The issue is not hostile decloaks, but self decloaking/failure to recloak after breaking gatecloaks since the cloak activation seems to be affected by time dilation. |
Ascendic
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
43
|
Posted - 2012.02.01 23:55:00 -
[155] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :)
For a guy who 'USED to design CPU hardware for supercomputers' you are a f*cking idiot.
I assume that is why you 'USED to' do this. |
Zleon Leigh
81
|
Posted - 2012.02.02 00:34:00 -
[156] - Quote
Ascendic wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:Apparently so... I used to do CPU hardware design for supercomputers... :) For a guy who 'USED to design CPU hardware for supercomputers' you are a f*cking idiot. I assume that is why you 'USED to' do this.
Such sweet words.
Nah, went on to make a helluva lot more money doing something else. EE's salaries were screwed over by the imports.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Vegare
Das zweite Konglomerat The Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 13:02:00 -
[157] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:So TiDi is hitting systems across the EVE universe, but the a vocal bunch says that it's not a problem because it isn't bothering anyone. Well it's directly impacting mining and missioning economics - and not in a good way. Grinding isk is bad enough without getting 10's of percentages knocked off your return.
So CCP - ever happen to think of anyone but the monster fleet fights??
The only difference to the pre-TiDi era is that you now have that little icon telling you about the 'lagged out' node.
Actually, lots of people are raging now because they weren't aware of what was wrong earlier. They had noone to blame for the sudden and laggy behaviour of their clients and their stripminers were happily cycling green without dumping ore into their cargoholds. Now they have the TiDi indicator to direct their anger at.
Ps: Even if your point was justified, the fun of ~1000 players and the destruction of their ships had higher priority than the average miner's m-¦/hour. |
Zleon Leigh
82
|
Posted - 2012.02.04 18:11:00 -
[158] - Quote
Vegare wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote:So TiDi is hitting systems across the EVE universe, but the a vocal bunch says that it's not a problem because it isn't bothering anyone. Well it's directly impacting mining and missioning economics - and not in a good way. Grinding isk is bad enough without getting 10's of percentages knocked off your return.
So CCP - ever happen to think of anyone but the monster fleet fights??
The only difference to the pre-TiDi era is that you now have that little icon telling you about the 'lagged out' node. Actually, lots of people are raging now because they weren't aware of what was wrong earlier. They had noone to blame for the sudden and laggy behaviour of their clients and their stripminers were happily cycling green without dumping ore into their cargoholds. Now they have the TiDi indicator to direct their anger at. Ps: Even if your point was justified, the fun of ~1000 players and the destruction of their ships had higher priority than the average miner's m-¦/hour.
Not true - before the miners were not getting lagged out, just the fleet fights. Now people outside of the fleet system are getting impacted.
Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Vegare
Das zweite Konglomerat The Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 10:38:00 -
[159] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote: Not true - before the miners were not getting lagged out, just the fleet fights. Now people outside of the fleet system are getting impacted.
Unintentionally, you've just proven my point xD |
Deitis Surtic
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
21
|
Posted - 2012.02.07 07:08:00 -
[160] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:As I stated in my last post. I understand the awfulness that is massive lag in a huge fleet battle. However I still do not understand how CCP can justify lagging out the minority of subscribers to benefit the majority of subscribers. Lets look deeper into this.
Fixed that for you. As you're no doubt aware, 1000 players in a fleet battle is actually more than 100 or so carebears in various scattered systems.
Absolutely love TD, it's one of the most effective additions to EVE in recent memory. Had it a few times (both in and out of fleet) and it's either been hilarious (try salvaging a smashed RAIDENDOT Fade invasion at 20% normal speed) or rather bloody good, actually (1000 vs. 720 man fleet with responsive modules, no lag). |
|
Soldarius
United Highsec Front The 99 Percent
144
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 09:08:00 -
[161] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Boratz wrote:K-IYNW 18:00 21/01/2012 There's a gigantic fight going on on this node. I guarantee you that if TiDi wasn't active, you'd be taking >5minutes to turn any modules on. We can debate whether that's better or worse than time slowing down, but let's not pretend like this system would have been cupcakes and roses without TiDi.
QFT. You tell 'em Veritas.
Seriously, this is a far cry better than pressing F1and then taking a coffee break while you wait for your lock to finish and if you're lucky your weapon to actually fire. I've been in fleet fights where locking would take 20 minutes, and then if you're lucky you might get one weapon cycle off. 20 mintes later your guns stop. OOPS! ECM burst! Wait 15 minutes for weapons to stop cycling. Start over. Forget about getting in system.
Tried to log in in a heavily lagged system one day. After 3 attempts all met with nothing bu8t black screen, I quit for the day.
Another time I warped to a fight and got nothing but brackets. No space, no ships, no laz0rs, no missiles, no drones, no background. Nothing but intergalactic blackness and brackets. And you know what brackets does to a large fleet fight.
TiDi >>>> lag. At least you get to participate on an even playing fileld.
The only thing that could use some tweaking is people filing the fleet fight forms so they get a reinforced node and not screw other players over, as funny as that may be.
"How do you kill that which has no life?" |
Zleon Leigh
82
|
Posted - 2012.02.08 16:10:00 -
[162] - Quote
Vegare wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote: Not true - before the miners were not getting lagged out, just the fleet fights. Now people outside of the fleet system are getting impacted.
Unintentionally, you've just proven my point xD
Wrong... your point is off. Let's try again - before TiDi only fleet fights were lagged. Now innocent bystanders are getting impacted by a minority event. Incarna - Newest business example of mismanaged capital.
CCP - Continuing to gank independent PI producers every day |
Zifrian
Licentia Ex Vereor Intrepid Crossing
208
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 22:57:00 -
[163] - Quote
Tonight was the first time I've had to experience this. Basically two systems we are in are affected and the large fleet battle going on isn't even in our region.
I appreciate the work that went into this as I know how crappy it was to sit there and not be able to do anything in a big fleet fight but when we have 10 people in a system that can't even do anything all because a fight 30 jumps away...that's just not fun for me. I don't think it's fun for anyone honestly.
Hope you can improve on this idea. Thanks Maximze your Industry Potential! - Get EVE Isk per Hour! |
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University Ivy League
677
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 23:09:00 -
[164] - Quote
One improvement might be for CCP to make systems more likely to be hosted on nodes that host neighboring systems? That would localize the issue (but might have some other very bad side effects). |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
189
|
Posted - 2012.02.10 23:15:00 -
[165] - Quote
I think an option on the in game map that shows what other systems are effected by the TIDI you are effected by would be a good idea. So those on the edge can jump over one system and not be effected by it. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
21
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 08:10:00 -
[166] - Quote
I haven't yet gotten to try time dilation, but given my prior experience without it, I can only imagine it is one of the greatest things to hit nullsec since player-owned stations. |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
42
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 08:56:00 -
[167] - Quote
last night was the longest i've been in a TiDi-ed engagement, 10% for 4 hrs straight, several crashes due to de-sync (grid's not loading), a couple of weird instances when people are not where they're supposed to be and even with time dilation some targets were off-sync (ships already died when they were still alive in overview).
but overall, it's manageable, with almost 1.9k people fighting in local it was understandable, but the client lag are still dominant, even with brackets off. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Tactical Invader Syndicate
191
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 14:53:00 -
[168] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:last night was the longest i've been in a TiDi-ed engagement, 10% for 4 hrs straight, several crashes due to de-sync (grid's not loading), a couple of weird instances when people are not where they're supposed to be and even with time dilation some targets were off-sync (ships already died when they were still alive in overview).
but overall, it's manageable, with almost 1.9k people fighting in local it was understandable, but the client lag are still dominant, even with brackets off. Fixes for your issues client side are on Sisi hopefully to deploy this week but most likely next week. |
Vegare
Das zweite Konglomerat The Initiative.
20
|
Posted - 2012.02.11 21:42:00 -
[169] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:
Wrong... your point is off. Let's try again - before TiDi only fleet fights were lagged. Now innocent bystanders are getting impacted by a minority event.
Just to keep feeding the troll: nope, all systems were lagged out to the same degree as they're now being dilated to the same degree, for reasons others stated earlier. Additionally you're definition of minority is a little off.
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Darth Gustav
Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
89
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Posted - 2012.02.13 18:21:00 -
[170] - Quote
Zleon Leigh wrote:Vegare wrote:Zleon Leigh wrote: Not true - before the miners were not getting lagged out, just the fleet fights. Now people outside of the fleet system are getting impacted.
Unintentionally, you've just proven my point xD Wrong... your point is off. Let's try again - before TiDi only fleet fights were lagged. Now innocent bystanders are getting impacted by a minority event.
Remember all those mysterious reboots? Remember the DB corruptions? Remember the black screens?
Before, everybody paid, but it was all-or-nothing.
All you have to do is move to a different system if you're TiDi'd unintentionally. You can still adjust market orders. You are still in the game.
Before, not so much.
Think about it. |
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Welsige
SregginWaffe Elite Space Guild
0
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Posted - 2012.02.16 16:46:00 -
[171] - Quote
I had an experience with TiDi, and didnt liked what i saw.
I get the idea, and understand that it makes big battles fair looking the big picture.
But let me tell my history.
I had a 4-5 gaming window to play. After that i had family issues to attend. Hardly a fleet in eve would take more than that, because you either win or would be dead by then.
Then time dilatation kicks in, Big battle drags on and on and on..... with the server running at 10%. 1 hour passed, then the other 3h.
By the end of my gamming session, i was still there, the battle seemed that it would still drag for hours of slow motion action.
I was praying to get destroyed. I even thought about letting the enemy tackle me so I could "safelly" get out the hostile system. I ended by safing up and logging again the next day to make way home.
In short, I am warry that with TiDi I wont be able to participate anymore in fights, because some people have other bussiness to attend than spend the entire day playing what would be like 4 hours in normal game time. Tidi may have an impact on more causal players and their participation within alliance fleets.
TiDi is conceptually good, but 10% server speed should not be accepted. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E. Comic Mischief
453
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Posted - 2012.02.16 23:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
Welsige, you do realize what that battle would have been like without TiDi? I would not have been faster. With the server that loaded you would have sat there for the same time, just instead of watching a slow motion battle, you would have been watching targeting timers sit at zero for half an hour, or guns that should be firing sit there blinking at you for half an hour, or still firing while blinking red for half an hour, or perhaps just a black screen for the entire battle.
With or without TiDi an overloaded server will result in a slow battle. TiDi does not make it slower, it just makes it fair. I am running for the CSM https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=779668#post779668 |
highonpop
Void.Tech BLACK-MARK
8
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Posted - 2012.02.20 19:43:00 -
[173] - Quote
Yesterday, There was a massive mobilization of CFC forces to the Fade Region.
The Fade node was in and out of TiDi the entire time. I actually like it, even though it makes you feel like you are moving through thick mud mixed with caramel, it really does help out with the lag. I like this feature and think more time should be spent developing it further.
I also would like to see the TiDi graph from yesterday with several 100+ man fleets moving around the Fade node. There was chatter in TS that some CFC members had alerted CCP to the coming influx of pilots on the Fade node, but no one knows if it was reinforced. |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Limitless Inc.
261
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Posted - 2012.02.22 03:23:00 -
[174] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Did you notice any difference compared to your 'normal' fleet fights? Was your EVE experience affected in some positive or negative way? Did you notice any strange or unexpected behaviour?
Let's help our brave developers and support them in the fight against the evil lag monster with good feedback!
1) EVE is not only about fleet fights you know, one of your CSM members even defended CCP when I pointed out TiDi is another blob incentitive and useless for anyone bar the <5% that sits in those lagfests. So, how is it now, you mention fleet fights and want specific feedback on that, or is TiDi a feature for everyone?
2) Yah, my EVE experience has been negative in many, many ways. - I almost lost a covert ops to unresponsive client. Had just jumped through a gate, system is empty, when suddenly a stealthbomber comes trough same gate I just went through. I've already sent command to warp off and cloak, but thanks to TiDi it still havnt' executed. I'm not able to stop and cloak either, no command work while the older commands try execute. But for some reason, this stealthbomber is allowed to approach and start lock me. Thankfully, his lock speed was delayed too and for some reason my warp command executed half a minute later. - TiDi makes NPC's permajam, instead of having lag, or crash back to acceleration gates, you just sit there while being unable to do jack **** while they just re-apply their jam non-stop. A single scenario with ten NPC's on grid, one of which can jam, kept me permajammed for towards an hour.. - TiDi has no warning, and happens when it makes no sense. I been casually moving around, minding my own business, with systems having 0-1 people for several jumps, when suddenly - boom, my game is completely unresponsible due with TiDi going 65-90%. One would think players who deliberately stay away from blobs, blobby systems, blobby areas, wouldn't get this. And one would think that players who run 4-6 clients just fine, would get a warning instead of massive delays on all of them out of the blue? At least give us the option to log off in time.. - And since Crucible, sometimes one of my clients will randomly stop update the overview. Tabbing it down, swapping the 'hot-tab' on top, etc, has no effect, only way to solve it is to relog. I can run 4-6 clients same time and this just happens to one of them, seeminly randomly.
3) I'll be happy to give you some feedback to fight the lag monster: kill all blob incentitives you have. Remove moon mining or make it very weak, change faction warfare to actually be small scale combat over the bunkers or similar, remove all sov upgrades and spread out resources, make belt ratting more profitable then lv4/incursions, make belt mining highly sought after again, kill jumpbridges (both at POS and from Titans), spread players out. Let outposts be destructible, remove fighterbombers and give supers back their dronebay, etc. All small scale PvP buffs, and kill off all blob incentitives you keep adding. TiDi is not an improvement for this game at this current state, rather the opposite. And to not make this complete whining: one thing you have done good since the early days in EVE, is ship balancing, nos/damp fixes, missile revamps (multiple times), etc. We need highsec dwellers out in low- and null, but spread out.
Just get rid of the damn blobs, that'll be the best lag fix you could ever have done. this is a signature |
Ezekiel Sulastin
Shiva Initiative Mercenaries
3
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Posted - 2012.02.22 07:08:00 -
[175] - Quote
You heard it here first folks: warned graceful degradation is inferior to unwarned unnoticed complete failure! (I mean, seriously, haven't any of these moronic "Waahh my minr r brok" ragers ever been on the same node as a lagfest before?) |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
140
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Posted - 2012.02.23 03:58:00 -
[176] - Quote
Ezekiel Sulastin wrote:You heard it here first folks: warned graceful degradation is inferior to unwarned unnoticed complete failure! (I mean, seriously, haven't any of these moronic "Waahh my minr r brok" ragers ever been on the same node as a lagfest before?) If only they had the option to just crash themselves, they'd be better off.
Tidi works nicely, I was in a rather large fight on homeland defence. We were TiDied all the way to something like 40% right as it started (all undocking at once) but then it improved to 90% and by the end of it no TiDi. Quite smooth all the way though despite us drakes spamming missiles everywhere. Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
65
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Posted - 2012.03.03 06:25:00 -
[177] - Quote
ive had the fortune of being in a fair few Tidi active fights as of late, and being a vet of the old huge slugfests of old (like O2O) i can without a shadow of a doubt say that with Tidi is sooo much better. Ive also had experiences of Tidi while doing more mundane tasks and yes it can get rather frustrating. I would consider suggesting this though:
CCP to code and implement a hardwalled system for star system allocation to nodes. To expand on that i mean precisely to break high sec, low sec and null sec from ever being shared on the same server node.
Sure big fights can occur in low as easily as null much like just over a year ago on the valentines day massacre of Uemon but i think this would go a long way to shielding peoples more mundane daytime tasks from Tidi related incidents that are in no way related to their type of space. I am also fairly certain that CCP also allocates a few servers to clear up stray systems not taken by other nodes and can in some cases create random pockets of Tidi activations when there appears to be nothing in the vicinity.
on the finer points of Tidi - most of its working well, and i know the eve community have pushed tidi to its limits already with that epic 4 hour slugfest up north, i would however say that it IS a triumph against blobs as prior to this invasion tactics became a first come, first serving killmails scenario of being in system and loading grid before the enemy. what that was, was an abuse of the shortcomings of the eve servers. what i would say against it however is that there are some missed and fairly important strategic items that need to be affected by tidi that arent now or at least werent when id last checked. one of them being the anchoring and onlining of towers and warp disruption bubbles.
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Deathwing Reborn
11
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Posted - 2012.03.05 00:00:00 -
[178] - Quote
What is up with this whole TD in locations not even near a fleet fight? We do not have a fight anywhere in our region and I have 50% TD while trying to rat or mine......
This is rediculas haing 12 min strip miner cycle times. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Against ALL Authorities
97
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Posted - 2012.03.06 08:36:00 -
[179] - Quote
Deathwing Reborn wrote:What is up with this whole TD in locations not even near a fleet fight? We do not have a fight anywhere in our region and I have 50% TD while trying to rat or mine......
This is rediculas haing 12 min strip miner cycle times.
An un-reinforced node has something like 70 systems running on it, those systems are in no way geographically related. So a good fight may TiDi a system a couple regions away.
Its a bit disconcerting jumping into a system with 30% TiDi and like 8 people in local but it happens...its just dumb luck. |
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