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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.18 03:33:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Goumindong
No really, i am not messing with you, the 5 turret eagle would be overpowered
how on earth is that overpowered? That's exactly how it SHOULD be. Low damage at short range, relatively high damage at long range. That's its exact role.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.18 12:17:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Goumindong
You seem to be missing the part where the Eagle is outdamaging the Zealot and Muninn at all ranges avove 50km.
There's no muninn on that graph, and you seem to be missing the part where the Eagle is fitted with its best faction ammos, and the zealot in that situation is fitted with its low-damage range ammo. When you fit the zealot comparably, it ****s all over the eagle within the 0-100km range. That is exactly how it's meant to work.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.18 22:57:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Elmicker on 18/08/2007 22:57:40
Originally by: Goumindong
You seem to be missing the part where the Eagle is outdamaging the Zealot and Muninn at all ranges avove 50km.
Roles:
Zealot = short/mid range wtfdps boat
muninn = short/mid range slightly less wtfdps boat, but with high alpha
eagle = long range, low-mid dps.
in the cruiser arena, 0-10km can be considered short range, 10-50 mid range, and anything above 50km long range. The majority of engagements occur in the 0-10km range, where the muninn and zealot will hammer the eagle.
Again, i fail to see how you're proving that adding a 5th turret would make the eagle overpowered in its role of long-range cruiser. If anything, you're disproving yourself with every point you make 
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.18 23:17:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Elmicker on 18/08/2007 23:18:07
Originally by: Goumindong
Neither the Zealot or the Muninn achieve that goal within that area. They are primarily snipers.
...
...
You've never flown any of these ships, have you?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.19 22:17:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Elmicker on 19/08/2007 22:20:11
I don't know why you're all bothering to argue with him. Just remember that he's arguing on the basis that the zealot and muninn are both sniping cruisers, the same way that an eagle is a sniping cruiser. It takes a special kind of idiocy to completely ignore the actual roles of a ship for the purpose of whining against a much-needed buff.
Quote:
Neither the Zealot or the Muninn achieve that goal within that area. They are primarily snipers.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.20 16:28:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nyxus
PS- If the Munnin isn't a sniper, then what is it really good for?
Doing short-ranged damage at mid-range, same as the zealot. It can be used in a sniping capacity, but it is (should be) nowhere near as effective as the dedicated sniping ship.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.20 17:06:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Goumindong
That might be what a Cerberus is good for[490 DPS @ 40km w/ HAMS, 5km/s flight speed], but not a Zealot or Muninn.
Again i must ask whether you've actually flown any of these ships, or are you just going on pure theory from spreadsheets and EFT?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.22 14:04:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Juha85
No they dont.
Yes they do
Quote:
When moving a big fleet of snipers its faster to just destroy a bubble if u end up in one on jumping through a gate.
Dictor bubbles.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.08.22 16:44:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Elmicker on 22/08/2007 16:44:00
Originally by: Juha85
Fitting an mwd on a fleet sniper is in no way mandatory.
You. Are. Wrong.
There, i even put it in short sentences.
MWDs provide a BS-heavy fleet with versatility if (when) the situation changes from your pre-set "sitting at your optimal range" scenario. If you set two identically commanded fleets with identical setups against each other, then took away the MWDs from one of the fleets, the MWD-equipped fleet would win every time.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Goumindong
Now tell me, if a deimos is only going to be shooting at cruisers, why not bring a Battleship instead?
Comparable dps, lower sig, faster, lower lock times, higher tracking, to mention but a few reasons.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 00:22:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Goumindong
Luckily for you, an inty only has about 1000 combined shield and armor.
My crow has a shade under 1,800 effective hitpoints.
My sniper eagle (192 optimal) deals 119 DPS.
15 seconds to kill an interceptor.
15 seconds to do the job the ship is supposedly specialised to do.
This is, of course, assuming the crow is sitting still at 192km, waiting to take the 3 volleys it will take. My crow can reduce that 192km to 24km in approximately 18 seconds. Good luck hitting me once i've gotten under 100km
.
The fact is, in every field that this ship operates, it is outclassed by the other hacs. The muninn is a better anti-support "sniper", the deimos is a better blaster boat and mid-range gang damage dealer? .
And hey. While we're on the subject of Eagle vs. Light Support lol.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 03:35:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 03:40:03
Originally by: Goumindong
Your crow may travel 8km/s, but it wont make it the distance in 18 seconds, not with that transversal. And yea an eagle will hit you under 100km even if you have a high transversal.
I tackled an eagle tonight that i approached from 100km (warped in from his align point to a gate @ 100km, he was @ 200km). He hit me once. It tickled a bit. Didn't kill him, unfortunately, as he was packing a jammer and broke my point before the gang warped in.
Quote:
And no, as we have shown, the Muninn is not a better anti-support sniper.
You've shown it on paper using DPS. Anti-support sniping is all about alpha, as you're likely to only get one hit before the target warps or gets under your transversal. Not to mention the ever-so-useful tracking bonus. In real-life situations, the muninn will be instapopping what the eagle is just tickling. Oh, and let's not forget the muninn can pack 5 warrior IIs, and is lighter than the eagle.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 04:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 04:33:11
Originally by: Goumindong
Muninns alpha is not enough to 1 volley any interceptor
lvl 5 muninn alphas at 1448. lvl 5 effective crow hp is 1862. A single lucky shot and you've popped him. Also, support isn't just ceptors.
Quote:
since the Muninn is unable to fit tracking computers or even 3 tracking enhancers.
If you're willing to sacrifice the MWD, you can easily fit the standard 3/3 damage/range for a sniper fit. You can actually get away with it too, as the muninn is absurdly fast for what it is.
Though... still. I'd like to see both ships boosted. They're both laughably bad at the jobs they're supposedly specialised to do.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 15:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Goumindong
because holy lord, if the Deimos sucks at shooting interceptors[and it does]
It does? Have you ever flown one? Or is this quickfit coming to the fore again?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:12:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:12:34
Originally by: Goumindong
its performance in the long range where it is the best
It's not hard to be the best when you're the only cruiser hitting at 200km.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:27:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:28:21
Originally by: Goumindong
Nope, but it still performs admirably to the extent of anti-supports effective range.
If you can prove it, then i'll believe you.
and NO. Showing graphs of the eagle doing 106 dps at 200km is not proving it is an effective anti-support ship (if anything, that's disproving it).
I gave you an example of me, a light support ship, easily engaging an eagle from long range, but failing to kill it, and then i gave you another example of an eagle, backed up by a sabre (ultimate anti support ship), getting utterly spanked by 3 ceptors.
I could find you more proof, but i feel you've walled yourself into your little box of "OMG THE EAGLE IS GODLIKE." and there's no way out.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Goumindong
4 turret + 5 turret eagle + competition against typical target
4 turret is in yellow[red is tech 2], 5 turret is in blue
In all honesty... I don't actually see a problem with this graph...
Muninn dominates as midrange damage dealer.
Zealot is the middle damage dealer for most of the midrange theatre (should be higher, but that's an inherent problem of lasers rather than the ship. However in reality, the zealot will be fitted with pulse rather than beams for the shortrange damage role)
Eagle dominates the long and ultra-long range, unless it only has 4 turrets, in which case it is simply "comparable" in the area it is supposed to excel.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.04 16:42:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:41:53
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.04 16:54:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:54:50
Edited by: Elmicker on 04/09/2007 16:54:13
Originally by: Goumindong
Pulse lasers do not work for fleet combat.
What the **** has fleet combat got to do with this? HACs operate almost exclusively in small gangs, where, shock horror, the close-range damage dealer is supreme.
Quote:
"Mid range" starts at 40km, the Muninn is already equal to the Eagle at those ranges, not even considerering the problems with drones
Mid range, for a cruiser, starts at 20km, and extends to approximately 75km. Anything above this can easily be considered long range, and anything above 150km ultra-long range.
Originally by: Goumindong
Until you realize how ridiculous those fits are.
Ok then, show us how we should be fitting them, oh god of sniping HACs.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.05 03:38:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
"Well, if you start a 100 page thread whining for a buff like the Deimos had..."
It wasn't the thread that got the deimos the buff. It was someone pointing out to a dev on sisi how poor the ship was.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.05 13:27:00 -
[21]
Quote:
The issue is about how good it makes the ship relative to everything else that performs the role as well as the ability to balance said ships for said role.
No other ships perform the same role as the eagle. The only one that comes close is the muninn, which should be a limited mid-range damage ship, yet still manages to outperform the eagle as a long-range anti-support ship.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.05 18:22:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Goumindong
It just utterly trounces all the other HACs in DPS at all ranges
That's only because the other "sniper" hacs also need another turret added. This also doesn't stop the eagle from being underpowered in its role. It just makes it overpowered compared to other hacs which are also underpowered in their own roles.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.05 22:10:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Elmicker on 05/09/2007 22:13:11
Originally by: Goumindong
The answer, though, to those problems, is not to make the eagle obsolete other fleet anti-support
A 20dps difference at ultra-long range (with still a large difference in alpha) is hardly obsoleting. When that's your specialist range, that's exactly where it should be.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.05 22:22:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Goumindong
Yea, it really is though.
Such insight.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.05 22:42:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Elmicker on 05/09/2007 22:43:46
Originally by: Goumindong
Look, if you dont think 25% more dps than the competition at all ranges is unbalanced then you have got to figure this game out.
25% increase onto 4 is only 5. The fact is that at the ranges concerned the dps is so laughably low that it makes nearly no difference.
Also, your maths make little sense. As it stands, the eagle has 4 turrets and does significantly less dps that all the other hacs. Adding another turret is a 25% increase. Doing 25% more post-buff would mean it's currently doing the same dps at all ranges?
Quote:
As it is right now, the 30 dps differene is enough that many people consider the Megathron to be the better sniper.
Actually it's more the tracking bonus  . Fleets ONLY engage @ 165km or below, as such, the range bonus of the rokh is useless, as it still needs to use spike to realistically reach that range. At this point, its tracking is ignificantly worse than the mega's and the 30dps difference simply skyrockets. That tracking bonus provides far more flexibility of range, and it's flexibility of engagements that is the key factor in fleets. A homologous fleet of rokhs would actually annihilate just about anything else in the game.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.06 00:05:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Elmicker on 06/09/2007 00:14:22
Originally by: Goumindong
I have no clue what the sentense after that was supposed to mean.
You said after the buff, it would do 25% more DPS at all ranges. This is after a 25% DPS boost. This means it is currently doing the same damage as the other ships at all ranges, which simply isn't true.
Quote:
No, it only does less dps in the short range. It does more dps in the very long range, and about equal dps in the medium ranges.
Yes, and? It's supposed to do that. However, disregarding the relation to the other hacs, its dps is LAUGHABLE. You can't kill the weakest ships in the game while they're sitting still at your optimal range. Sod the effects on the other hacs - if it makes the eagle overpowered, boost them, too. Lord knows they need it since the tier 2 BC introduction.
Quote:
...if engaging below 150km...
*sigh*
Again with the quickfit warrioring; basing your arguments off on-paper DPS-only situations that will NEVER happen
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.06 18:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Elmicker on 06/09/2007 18:16:44
Originally by: Goumindong
I hate to break this to you, but there are no people in this thread who regularly engage in 0.0 fleet warfare.
There's at least a dozen judging by alliance tags alone, and probably more sitting behind alts, or with tags turned off.
Originally by: Goumindong
At sniping ranges it does ropughly equal or better damage compared to the other HACs throughout the spectrum.
Eeeh gads, thread over. The only opposition to the buff admits that the specialised sniping cruiser is only as good as the non-specialised cruisers fitted for sniping.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.06 19:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Goumindong
Better when engaging in longer ranges
Because it's the only cruiser that can engage at that range. When your only competition is yourself, it isn't exactly hard.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.10 19:01:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Goumindong
The Moa is faster and more versitile than a Hawk.
It is?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.10 19:30:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Goumindong
But, Caracal > Hawk in gank.
Erm.
Fixed.
Barely.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.10 20:41:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Elmicker on 10/09/2007 20:43:36
Originally by: Goumindong
Then Moas and Eagles OMFGWTFPWN all frigs in fleet combat just dandily
No. They can't track sufficiently, and are unable to maneuver to respond to fast support changing range.
Also.
Your caracal setup is a bit lol. No one in their right mind would fit a caracal like that. Actually, no one in their right mind fits a hawk like that, either. (Actually, hawk is ridiculously difficult to fit without faction gear. Needs a CPU boost)
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:30:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You cannot be serious with this post. Prove it.
Refering to the hypothetical 5 turret double damage bonus eagle w/ 50 cubes, not the current.
What about without the 50m3 drone bay? Most people simply want a turret, not more drones. Drones should not be present on a sniper ship, especially a caldari one.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.14 16:15:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/09/2007 16:15:01
Originally by: Zixxa
reasonable drone bay is must.
Not when you've been given the ability to kill them with your turrets. 50m3 is just insane. 15m3 wouldn't go amiss, however
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 19:36:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Goumindong
[This is why i think it would be best to make changes that increase the viability of the ship in the short range without impacting its ability in the long.
You've got totally the wrong end of the stick.
The ship shouldn't be effective in the short range. It should be shat on by all the other hacs in that range. It is a v. long range cruiser. "Not affecting its ability in the long" just turns it into a short range cruiser, as it is currently nigh on useless as a sniper. The only things it can kill are pods, and non-mwding frigates. At everything else it fails.
If the "best" suggested buff (the 5th turret) makes it too effective in the short range, then the short range hacs should be bumped up to maintain the status quo.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 20:25:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Goumindong
elm: the problem is not that the eagle gets too good in the short range its that ie eagle gets too good in the long range.
So your problem is that the long range cruiser of the long range race is too good in the long range?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 22:05:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Goumindong
Just like the Myrmidon
No.
The myrmidon's (and to a lesser extent the eos') overpoweredness come from its versatility. The situations in which the Eagle would be "overpowered" would be quite specific and easily countered.
(Also, the myrm was meant to be the gallente's midrange support BC. The brutix is the close range damage dealer)
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 22:50:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Goumindong
No downsides, only advantages...
No downsides, other than having to constantly switch ammo to maintain its advantage, being a fat bastard of a boat, having poor tracking, doing laughable damage, having no form of point defense, being a ***** to fit effectively for fleet action and still being outclassed in its niche by the muninn.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.14 23:57:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Goumindong
You have to do no such thing with Ammo, you can simply load an advantaged ammo[the 99km ammo] and then keep using it.
In which case, you lose your DPS advantage when they close the gap.
Quote:
You just choose where to be shooting.
I refer you to the point of it being a fat ***** of a ship.
Quote:
[no, an unrigged Muninn doesnt tracking .56 since it cant fit the tracking computer].
Why not? Muninns require TCs. Not using them is idiocy; wasting your bonus.
Quote:
You have perfectly acceptable DPS similar to all other snipers in the same range.
Similar to the other snipers? Such as? What other cruiser engages at 190km? You're comparing the eagle... to the eagle.
Quote:
[also, this might be your problem]
Nice. Ignoring the actual argument and going for the personal attack.
I was referring to the fact that fitting all the required fleet modules (MWD, 2-3x SBs, 3 damage mods, 3 tracking mods) leaves little to no room for anything else. You can fit a wonderful 2 standard missile launchers to fill your last highs dealing a wintastic 25dps to anything under your optimal and within 42km. Let's not even consider fitting remote reps, it just gets silly, then.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.15 18:46:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Goumindong
At 100km the eagle does similar dps to the Muninn
Fitting the Muninn for max range and tremor gets 114+22, and fitting the eagle with CN Uranium gets 114+15. So, comparable range in the 100km theatre. Muninn deals 223 dps with a frankly insane 1448 alpha, the eagle deals 173 dps (607 alpha). 33% less DPS.
This also assumes the eagle pilot is carrying a wide enough range of ammos to suit the range of engagement.
Quote:
Its not a personal attack if your support skills arent up to snuff you will have a hard time fitting these ships well.
It has nothing to do with support skills, you ****ant. The example i was using was with max skills. Once you've got an MWD on, you haven't got the PG to fit real launchers in your last 2 slots.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.15 18:54:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Goumindong
Protip: dont use tech 2 ammo, despite its higher numbers, it does less damage than tech 1 ammo in the situations you will be using it.
RF Carbonised lead then does 192dps and 1249 alpha, with a greatly increased tracking. Still a full 19 DPS more than the eagle.
Quote:
also, make sure the ship can lock to that range before you assume it can shoot there.
The fit concerned can lock to 167.36km.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.15 19:54:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Goumindong
Not at 114km it doesnt. Drop down another ammo and you will see the Eagle does 194 dps.
With lower tracking, lower falloff, lower alpha and a healthy dosage of cap use. Muninn will still do higher effective dps.
Quote:
Then its got no mwd.
Correct. However, drop a single sensor booster for an MWD and you're still locking at 110km, which gang skills bump to 121km. Then add a single targeting range rig, and you're at 142km. Anything else?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.15 19:58:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
There are *lots* of reasons not to fit a MWD on a sniper ship, just FYI
No there's not. Not one. I was silly for trying the fit without it. However, Using a single rig, there's still plausible fits that do exactly the same thing.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.15 20:15:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Actually, there is. =/ System defense works really well without them.
Only if you plan on losing the system.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.15 21:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: d026
mwd is not mandatory on a sniper. 1. align ! 2. have capable recon pilots providing additional warpins.
We went over this many pages ago, but here's 2 situations.
1) You come into your first warpin. Oh shi-! A dictor uncloaks and bubbles your entire sniper fleet. Good luck getting out of that at 125m/s.
2) A shiny, juicy target comes up 2 jumps away, but there's a large bubble on both out gates. You absolutely must kill it within the next 5 minutes (i.e., siege cycle). How do you get there in time with no mwd?
ALL pvp ships should have a mwd on. Otherwise, you'll just end up outmaneuvered and moving slowly everywhere which will quickly result in your annihilation.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.15 21:38:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Elmicker on 15/09/2007 21:44:13
Originally by: Liang Nuren
1. Do you really keep your entire sniper fleet all together? We've had pretty good success with having them dispersed.
Whatever, doesn't matter. Half your sniper fleet gets bubbled. The point is you need an MWD.
Quote:
2. Don't take sniper cruisers to kill a dread.
The situations were with reference to battleships, though they still stand with cruisers.
(edit: for some reason i wrote battleshops :P)
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.16 00:26:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Goumindong
Add another turret and now it doesnt.
After playing with fits for the two ships, beyond the standard 3 range/3 damage/1 mwd fleet fits, i'm actually starting to agree with you. As far as i can see, one of the main contributors to the problem is faction ammo. It's just too common and too powerful compared to T2, once you factor in T2's penalties.
However, that is not a reason to not buff the eagle. I'd actually like to see the other ranged turret hacs buffed to keep up with the eagle. Because, while it may be comparable or slightly worse to the shorter ranged ships (and rightly slow) it is currently far too underpowered to do its job. Would you actually have any objection if all 3 of the hacs got an extra turret?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.16 01:04:00 -
[47]
Surely it'd better to have an eagle that is slightly better than the zealot and muninn, than to have an utterly useless hac, or than to have a raft of ultrapowered hacs?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
|
Posted - 2007.09.16 02:10:00 -
[48]
Originally by: d026
Edited by: d026 on 16/09/2007 01:55:11
how about to give it just a 5th turret? nobody needs 10% shield hp.
Haven't read the thread at all, have you? Even on this page alone we've demonstrated that the eagle is currently on par (or very slightly below par) with the muninn, its main competition, which is supposed to do more damage. Putting a 5th, triple bonused turret would put it waay ahead of any competition, at all ranges.
Removing the damage bonus to an extent, lowers its effectiveness in the ultra-short range as most engagements there will happen close enough for anyone to close to max damage range so the damage bonuses from your range bonuses go out the window. However, then adding the 5th turret brings the ship up to par in the close range theatre, slightly behind the other close range HACs which feature pure damage bonuses. It then allows it to excel in the mid-long range, where its range bonuses can be abused to the max.
Also. 10% HP and 25m3 of drones would probably make this thing a serious beast.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.16 02:34:00 -
[49]
Originally by: d026
5 turret eagle without the 25% dmg (hac lvl 5) does exactely the same damage as the 4 turret eagle.
That's assuming HAC5. Most pilots only have HAC4, in which case, they're still getting a 4.1% damage boost. Plus drones.
Quote:
also i do not agree that the eagle is on paar with the muniinn
Why not? They do similar dps across the mid-long (up to 120kmish) ranges.
Quote:
and eagle needs a dmg buff not shield hp.
Well, would you care to suggest ways to give the eagle a damage buff that doesn't involve it dealing 500dps at 10km?
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.16 02:50:00 -
[50]
Originally by: d026
no because the muninn is able to deal +100 dps more at 10k.
eh?
Max skills, 3 gyrostabs, 425mm AC 2s w/ barrage and 5 hobgoblin iis, and you're just dealing 500dps at 4.5km. 2 HAM launchers give you another 80 dps or so, so you're nearly bumping 600. However, that's at half the range suggested. So, i don't know where you're pulling your figures from.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.18 17:45:00 -
[51]
Raven in a fleet fight? . Bring a scorp.
/Offtopicness.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.18 18:38:00 -
[52]
Originally by: d026
probably YOU suck not shooting the dictors and let them get close!
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.18 20:31:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Bad Borris
The eagle in its niche role should outperform other sniping sniping hacs by some considerable margin.
It does.
Admittedly, it's not difficult when the other HACs are dealing less than 100 dps, but it still does.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.18 22:30:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Silence Duegood
They should dominate at sniping.
And they do. The eagle consistently deals more damage than the muninn and zealot above 80km or so, with better tracking and the ability to still shoot further if needed. Adding another turret just makes the others nigh on obsolete.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.18 22:42:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Goumindong
They are better up close yes. But they both suck up close so its not much of a consolation.
To be fair, the same argument can be applied to the eagle. IT's better at long range, but it's still ****.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.18 23:22:00 -
[56]
Originally by: d026
WRONG! The Munnin outps the Eagle (even if you give it another turret) at 105 to 125k!
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.21 18:54:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Terror DeBiaN
I've been asked to provide a summary of the PROs/CONs in the first post of this thread. But seeing SO many opinions and so many options, I have a hard time summarizing the 47 pages of posts. Anyone want to throw a quick UNBIASED PRO/CON post up I can push up to the initial post?
Thanks!
Terror
Pros:
The eagle would actually be worth something at its maximum range (where its currently pants)
cons:
The eagle would be overpowered in comparison to to the zealot and muninn in the short-mid ranges as a result of the 5th turret and/or drone bay increase.
That's about the top and bottom of it.
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Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising
FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.22 01:00:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Elmicker on 22/09/2007 01:01:09
If there was some way to fiddle the damage bonuses so that they are only effective in the v. long (100+) range, you could probably slap on the 5th turret with no bother. The problem with sticking a fifth triple bonused turret on the thing, is not that it turns this thing into a mini deimos (without the speed) that is able to adjust on the fly to engage out to 200km.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.24 17:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Zixxa
You lie as usually.
At least RA+Goons and AAA knows how to kill better than BoBs.
looks for AAA killboard
HACS flown:
1. Vagabond [1]
2. Munnin [11]
3. Zealot [23]
4. Eagle [26]
He was talking about ships involved in fleet battles.
Also, to goumindong's figures. They're not THAT unbalanced, once you factor in the fact caldari players make up about 1/2 the game.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.25 16:07:00 -
[60]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
the muninn CAN alpha cruisers though sheesh. Who says the muninn is required to switch ammo before it shoots cruisers? It may have t2 ammo loaded to start with....... lol.
Alpha with max skills and RF EMP is a little under 2300. Base effective HP with 0 fitting and 0 skills on a rupture is over 6,000.
Stop posting ****e.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.25 17:53:00 -
[61]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
I never said insta pop, i just said a much more effective alpha.
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
the muninn CAN alpha cruisers though sheesh....
Again, i ask you to stop posting ****e. I don't see the word "effectively" there. All i say is you saying a muninn can alpha cruisers. To alpha something is to kill it with your alpha strike. Mk?
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.25 23:34:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Zixxa
you lie, you do not need to overfit Munnin to make them better than Eagle
Comparably, the munnin is overfit. The comparison made required max skills, and lacked several essential modules that the eagle had, which could have dropped to improve performance.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.01 18:20:00 -
[63]
Originally by: SATAN
I dont know what fuzzy logic calculator you are using but even if you had maxed skills and all the implants your dps on a cruise raven would never exceede 600. Please refrain from commenting on things when you cant even run simple math.
Only if you ignore drones. Cruise IIs w/ CN cataclysm, 3x BCU IIs, 2x ogre IIs, 1x HH II, 1x HG II: 696 DPS.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.15 01:09:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Goumindong
It wont be insta-popping ceptors, just doing a lot more DPS than it ought to be. A HAC that could insta-pop ceptors at sniping range would be doing BS/near quality dps, even a Muninn[which can just barely two volley most untanked inties]. A muninn would have to be doing 384 dps with carb lead and Eagle about 582 with CN thorium in order to achieve that feat[and then both would do it just barely]
That is, unless they gave them a destroyer-esque RoF penalty in exchange for a massive damage bonus.
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.16 18:56:00 -
[65]
/me cries that his -RoF +moar alpha!!!1! suggestion was missed.
Keeps dps the same, makes the eagle so, so much nicer as an anti-support sniper. No more taking 5-6 volleys to pop a single frigate  .
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Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.10.16 23:54:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Magazaki
Cloaking changes. Made cloaked ships scannable/probeable, people gave feedback on that and was tested and they didn't like the results, so they never brought it to sisi and they reversed the change.
Erm, no. They planned the change, and still have the change planned (soonÖ). It was never introduced to the test server because they couldn't implement it properly.
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