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Queen Hopy
Your Friendly Booster Company
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Posted - 2007.09.12 18:32:00 -
[1111]
Originally by: Goumindong
This is by using terror rage assault missiles? Did u know that the explosion radius skill doesnt apply to them, which means that you will need to be shooting at a bc or larger if you hope do even close to the theoretical maximum dps? Also the explosiun velocity of the rage hams is a measly 375m/s and the maximum speed on a cerb (unless there is something wrong wit h EFT is only 3375m/s which will further decrease your dps in most cases.
CN Terror assault missiles. The explosion radius penalty on ranges is immaterial if any target larger than a frigate is using its microwarp drive.
Explosion velocity is independant of the speed of the missile launcher. You are thinking of tracking which is dependant on both the speed of the launcher and the speed of the person taking damage.
ed: Hey Zixxa, i know you are a professional troll, but it would be really nice if you didnt falsely quote me in your signature.
Well its pretty much your own stupidity if you wont shut the mwd down once u are in range to shoot at the missile ship
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.09.12 19:09:00 -
[1112]
Originally by: Goumindong
CN Terror assault missiles. The explosion radius penalty on ranges is immaterial if any target larger than a frigate is using its microwarp drive.
You are demagogue. Using mwd is finished after enemy ship is out of range of HAM either in the range of blasters. In both cases Cerb is dead.
Originally by: Goumindong
Explosion velocity is independant of the speed of the missile launcher. You are thinking of tracking which is dependant on both the speed of the launcher and the speed of the person taking damage.
You lie. Tracking depends from radial speed target and ship. Which far to be equal the velocity of the target. Every pilot of ceptor knows what is it insta-pop. To tank missile your target needs only speed.
Originally by: Goumindong
ed: Hey Zixxa, i know you are a professional troll, but it would be really nice if you didnt falsely quote me in your signature.
You lie, as usually. I quoted you well enough in signature. So shut up. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.12 21:51:00 -
[1113]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: As well, assuming the Zealot starts in range, the Cerb only has a disadvantage for about 30 seconds. And most targets will last 30 seconds into a fight.
not sure what you fighting but in most of my combat experience targets dont last 30 seconds... especially not in the fleet blob you claim the game should be balanced around.
Really targets dont last 30 seconds from the time you lock them to the time they explode? I would be suprised. You should start counting.
I dont claim the game should be balanced around a fleet blob, but i do claim that you have to accept that fleet warfare is a part of the game and so balance ships with that in mind.
However...
1. If we arent talking about fleet warfare then we arent talking about medium range. Oh hey, what was that now we arent talking about a pulse zealot or ham cerb, but an precision light cerb and a beam zealot?
2. If we arent talking about fleet warfare then the 5th turret doesnt fix the eagle because rails suck balls outside of fleet warfare.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.12 21:52:00 -
[1114]
Originally by: Queen Hopy
Well its pretty much your own stupidity if you wont shut the mwd down once u are in range to shoot at the missile ship
If you make it, yes.
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Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.09.12 22:08:00 -
[1115]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis
And in the end, the Rokh will still outdamage the Eagle as well. Even with 5 turrets.
Not against interceptors, frigates, and interdictors it wont.
Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis
Originally by: Goumindong Why did everyone think the Hawk was going to be overpowered? Its an AF, they suck.
And months from now, when CCP unnerf the Eagle, someone will post i a thread:
"Why did 'everyone' think the Eagle was going to be overpowered?"
It was the same paper-not-play bullcrap that you're using.
"OMG THE HAWK WILL KILL ALL FRIGS AND DRONES WITHING 439563427568KM!"
I don't know what game you play, but my Hawk is more agile than a Caracal, not by much though.
You're still using spreadsheets to argue against people who have actually used the ships, and know that numbers lie.
The Deimos got its much-needed fix, the Eagle's turn should be next, along with AFs.
The difference is that HACs dont suck.
The eagles fix should not be in the manner of a fifth turret, but in drone bay and/or a swaped bonus such that damage is kept constant
So rather than fixing the sniping hac by giving it a 5th turret, you'd fix it by breaking the role and giving it a drone bay?
Thank god you're not a dev. -------------- Fulfilling 0.0 Ammo needs since 2 days after being made. |
Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.09.12 22:30:00 -
[1116]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Silence Duegood
Originally by: Goumindong
And you know what? The Zealot IS a dedicated sniping ship, it sucks balls with pulses. The muninn is also a dedicated atry ship. Its inferior in every way to a Vagabond with autocannons.
Explain how the Zealot is a dedicated sniper when it has one range bonus? Please, moron.
Are the eagle and ferox snipers?
The Zealot is a dedicated sniper because in the short range it is outtanked, ganked, ranged, and speeded by at least one ship at all ranges. Because it has an optimal range bonus, because the only thing its half good at is shooting anti-support in a fleet.
So if it's a dedicated sniper because it's not the best ship for closerange, what the hell is the Eagle?
Yes the Eagle is a dedicated sniper, it has two range bonuses, and no damage bonuses. The ferox is as much a dedicated sniper as the Brutix is a dedicated blasterboat. The Vulture is a dedicated sniper/gang platform. -------------- Fulfilling 0.0 Ammo needs since 2 days after being made. |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 01:27:00 -
[1117]
Originally by: Hyuuga Veralis
So rather than fixing the sniping hac by giving it a 5th turret, you'd fix it by breaking the role and giving it a drone bay?
Thank god you're not a dev.
The eagle is not broken as a sniping HAC
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.09.13 02:52:00 -
[1118]
Eagle should be a proper long range sniper right?
So how about this.
Give it SIX TURRETS.
And then chop its PG down, to the point where the only way to get 6 turrets on it is with RCU/ACR and NO OTHER HIGH GRID MODS.
So it can fit 6 guns and sniper kit for decent damage at long range, but the second it closes the distance it doesnt have the grid to even fit 4 turrets and even a half decent tank.
Hey presto, now it really really snipes, and REALLY REALLY sucks up close.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed dimensions of 400x120 pixels and filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected]) |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 03:25:00 -
[1119]
Originally by: bldyannoyed Eagle should be a proper long range sniper right?
So how about this.
Give it SIX TURRETS.
And then chop its PG down, to the point where the only way to get 6 turrets on it is with RCU/ACR and NO OTHER HIGH GRID MODS.
So it can fit 6 guns and sniper kit for decent damage at long range, but the second it closes the distance it doesnt have the grid to even fit 4 turrets and even a half decent tank.
Hey presto, now it really really snipes, and REALLY REALLY sucks up close.
I would like to introduce you to my friend the electron blaster.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.13 03:31:00 -
[1120]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: bldyannoyed Eagle should be a proper long range sniper right?
So how about this.
Give it SIX TURRETS.
And then chop its PG down, to the point where the only way to get 6 turrets on it is with RCU/ACR and NO OTHER HIGH GRID MODS.
So it can fit 6 guns and sniper kit for decent damage at long range, but the second it closes the distance it doesnt have the grid to even fit 4 turrets and even a half decent tank.
Hey presto, now it really really snipes, and REALLY REALLY sucks up close.
I would like to introduce you to my friend the electron blaster.
I dunno that 6 Electrons would do more than 4x Neutrons. Care to make a graph?
Liang
Yarr? |
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bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
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Posted - 2007.09.13 03:36:00 -
[1121]
Whoopty ******* doo.
So now its fitting 6 Electrons and a crippled tank at close range.
Compare it to a Deimos that can now quite comfortably fit 5x Neutron II's and an 800 RT plate and its going to get ******.
But whack 6x 250 II's and a few sensor boosters and its great at range.
Why do you think that an Eagle should be good up close?
It should be utterley useless at close range.
It isnt a shield tanking Deimos FFS.
Everything you have ever suggested was geared towards making it better at close range, where quite clearly the only thing that would ever make it decent up close is a 50 cube bay, 5 turrets and a double damage bonus.
And thats called a Deimos.
I fully understand why giving it a 5th turret and additional grid/cpu to fit them could make it unbalaned up close, because as it sdtands it will fit 4 Neutron II/s, an active tank and 3 damage mods with no real hassle.
Upping that to 5 Neutrons and an active tank and you have a dangerous close range ship, even if it cant tackle.
But a ship that can fit 6x 250 II, 3 sensor booster II, 2 tracking comps II's, 3 MFS II, 1x RCU II, 2x ACR for sniping
OR
6x Electron II, MWD, injector, large booster, 1mfs, 3 rcu's, and a couple of rigs....
Its awesome at range and ****ty up close.
Which is what an Eagle is meant to be.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.09.13 06:25:00 -
[1122]
Originally by: bldyannoyed Whoopty ******* doo.
So now its fitting 6 Electrons and a crippled tank at close range.
Compare it to a Deimos that can now quite comfortably fit 5x Neutron II's and an 800 RT plate and its going to get ******.
But whack 6x 250 II's and a few sensor boosters and its great at range.
Why do you think that an Eagle should be good up close?
It should be utterley useless at close range.
It isnt a shield tanking Deimos FFS.
Everything you have ever suggested was geared towards making it better at close range, where quite clearly the only thing that would ever make it decent up close is a 50 cube bay, 5 turrets and a double damage bonus.
And thats called a Deimos.
I fully understand why giving it a 5th turret and additional grid/cpu to fit them could make it unbalaned up close, because as it sdtands it will fit 4 Neutron II/s, an active tank and 3 damage mods with no real hassle.
Upping that to 5 Neutrons and an active tank and you have a dangerous close range ship, even if it cant tackle.
But a ship that can fit 6x 250 II, 3 sensor booster II, 2 tracking comps II's, 3 MFS II, 1x RCU II, 2x ACR for sniping
OR
6x Electron II, MWD, injector, large booster, 1mfs, 3 rcu's, and a couple of rigs....
Its awesome at range and ****ty up close.
Which is what an Eagle is meant to be.
I hate to burst your bubble, but your suggestion won't work because of this:
Heavy electron blaster II - 105PG 250mm railgun II - 236 PG
so 6x250mm II = 1416 PG (of course without skills like awu, but they work both ways)
6xElectron II + MWD II = 795 PG (current Eagle can fit that with fitting to spare)
Any ship that can fit a full rack of largest longrange guns CAN fit lowest closerange guns + mwd without any problem with fitting to spare. You simply cannot make that work based just on fitting.
(Yeah I know I said I am out of this thread ... but I could not help it ...)
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.13 06:29:00 -
[1123]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
(Yeah I know I said I am out of this thread ... but I could not help it ...)
Well, I'm glad you pointed it out... I wasn't going to. :P Welcome back? ;-)
Liang
Yarr? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 06:38:00 -
[1124]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I dunno that 6 Electrons would do more than 4x Neutrons. Care to make a graph?
Liang
Please stop trolling.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.13 06:40:00 -
[1125]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I dunno that 6 Electrons would do more than 4x Neutrons. Care to make a graph?
Liang
Please stop trolling.
Hmm, but you're so much fun to troll. ^_^ Mostly, because you talk complete nonsense about Caldari and make sense about some other stuff.
TBH, I've liked most of your ideas. Just that you have no idea what to do with an Eagle.
Liang
Yarr? |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 06:45:00 -
[1126]
Originally by: bldyannoyed I fully understand why giving it a 5th turret and additional grid/cpu to fit them could make it unbalaned up close, because as it sdtands it will fit 4 Neutron II/s, an active tank and 3 damage mods with no real hassle.
The eagle would make the Deimos look like a joke with 5 turrets a double damage bonus and its current configuration, hell, its current fitting as well
5x Electron II, 1x HAM II MWD, Web, Scram, LSE II, LSE II DCII, MFS II, MFS II, MFS II
5x Hammerhead II
742 DPS. Bigger passive tank than anything a 3 MFS deimos could put out
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MailFan
Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.13 08:18:00 -
[1127]
Originally by: Goumindong
The eagle would make the Deimos look like a joke with 5 turrets a double damage bonus and its current configuration, hell, its current fitting as well
5x Electron II, 1x HAM II MWD, Web, Scram, LSE II, LSE II DCII, MFS II, MFS II, MFS II
5x Hammerhead II
742 DPS. Bigger passive tank than anything a 3 MFS deimos could put out
Everybody knows a 50m3 5 turret Eagle and a double dmg bonus is not going to happen. It was just an example of how much of a boost the Eagle would need to come close to a Deimos. --
I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
Boost the Eagle |
Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 17:56:00 -
[1128]
Edited by: Goumindong on 13/09/2007 17:56:52
Originally by: MailFan
Originally by: Goumindong
The eagle would make the Deimos look like a joke with 5 turrets a double damage bonus and its current configuration, hell, its current fitting as well
5x Electron II, 1x HAM II MWD, Web, Scram, LSE II, LSE II DCII, MFS II, MFS II, MFS II
5x Hammerhead II
742 DPS. Bigger passive tank than anything a 3 MFS deimos could put out
Everybody knows a 50m3 5 turret Eagle and a double dmg bonus is not going to happen. It was just an example of how much of a boost the Eagle would need to come close to a Deimos.
except that such an Eagle would utterly trash a Deimos. The eagle needs no such boost to be usefull in that capacity, giving it other bonuses that are usefull in the roles, but not similar while giving it a reasonable drone bay would not break it, and nor would it bring it anywhere near the ridiculous idea of what it would need.
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Dalyn Arathon
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.09.13 18:15:00 -
[1129]
/signed to please give the Eagle its full turret complement + fitting for (plus the Ferox and Vulture along with).
I won't argue or say anything more complex than that.
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MailFan
Stormlord Battleforce Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.13 18:22:00 -
[1130]
Originally by: Goumindong
except that such an Eagle would utterly trash a Deimos. The eagle needs no such boost to be usefull in that capacity, giving it other bonuses that are usefull in the roles, but not similar while giving it a reasonable drone bay would not break it, and nor would it bring it anywhere near the ridiculous idea of what it would need.
The Deimos would still be faster, more agile, a better locking speed, more powergrid and can use 2 slots for damage mods and 4 to tank, while still having 3 med slots to use for tackling or an injector.
Maybe the Eagle would still win, but it would far from trounce it.
However, this goes far beyond the cause for this topic. (almoste) Everybody agrees the Eagle needs a boost. In the end it's up to the Devs. Who seem to hide under a rock, shock of double MWDed Ravens. --
I'm in this mood because of scorn. I'm in a mood for total war
Boost the Eagle |
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.13 18:37:00 -
[1131]
Originally by: MailFan Edited by: MailFan on 13/09/2007 18:35:16
Originally by: Goumindong
except that such an Eagle would utterly trash a Deimos. The eagle needs no such boost to be usefull in that capacity, giving it other bonuses that are usefull in the roles, but not similar while giving it a reasonable drone bay would not break it, and nor would it bring it anywhere near the ridiculous idea of what it would need.
The Deimos would still be faster, more agile, a better locking speed, more powergrid and can use 2 slots for damage mods and 4 to tank, while still having 3 med slots to use for tackling or an injector.
Maybe the Eagle would still win, but it would far from trounce it.
However, this goes far beyond the cause for this topic. (almost) Everybody agrees the Eagle needs a boost. In the end it's up to the Devs. Who seem to hide under a rock, shock of double MWDed Ravens.
You think a deimos can do with 4 slots and less powergrid what an eagle can do with 3 and more?
The electron eagle there outdamages a 2 damage mod neutron Deimos.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.09.14 07:05:00 -
[1132]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: MailFan Edited by: MailFan on 13/09/2007 18:35:16
Originally by: Goumindong
except that such an Eagle would utterly trash a Deimos. The eagle needs no such boost to be usefull in that capacity, giving it other bonuses that are usefull in the roles, but not similar while giving it a reasonable drone bay would not break it, and nor would it bring it anywhere near the ridiculous idea of what it would need.
The Deimos would still be faster, more agile, a better locking speed, more powergrid and can use 2 slots for damage mods and 4 to tank, while still having 3 med slots to use for tackling or an injector.
Maybe the Eagle would still win, but it would far from trounce it.
However, this goes far beyond the cause for this topic. (almost) Everybody agrees the Eagle needs a boost. In the end it's up to the Devs. Who seem to hide under a rock, shock of double MWDed Ravens.
You think a deimos can do with 4 slots and less powergrid what an eagle can do with 3 and more?
The electron eagle there outdamages a 2 damage mod neutron Deimos.
You cannot be serious with this post. Prove it.
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.14 11:37:00 -
[1133]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You cannot be serious with this post. Prove it.
Refering to the hypothetical 5 turret double damage bonus eagle w/ 50 cubes, not the current.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.09.14 13:02:00 -
[1134]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You cannot be serious with this post. Prove it.
Refering to the hypothetical 5 turret double damage bonus eagle w/ 50 cubes, not the current.
ah that ... but then you have actualy a deimos itself not an eagle :-)
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:05:00 -
[1135]
Originally by: Goumindong A standard unrigged HAC 5 Eagle has a tracking of .049 on its 250 II railguns.
A standard unrigged HAC 5 Muninn[tracking bonus] has a tracking of .044 on its 720 II artillery
what are u smoking?
250mm on eagle 0.028 720mm on munin 0.037
on proper setups:
250mm 0.049 720mm 0.056
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:22:00 -
[1136]
Originally by: Goumindong
You think a deimos can do with 4 slots and less powergrid what an eagle can do with 3 and more?
The electron eagle there outdamages a 2 damage mod neutron Deimos.
a) You lie as usually. b) Your answer does not related to the question. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and |
Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:30:00 -
[1137]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You cannot be serious with this post. Prove it.
Refering to the hypothetical 5 turret double damage bonus eagle w/ 50 cubes, not the current.
What about without the 50m3 drone bay? Most people simply want a turret, not more drones. Drones should not be present on a sniper ship, especially a caldari one.
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:47:00 -
[1138]
Originally by: Elmicker
What about without the 50m3 drone bay? Most people simply want a turret, not more drones. Drones should not be present on a sniper ship, especially a caldari one.
In modern times, when every second ceptor flying at 10+ km/s, reasonable drone bay is must. Why all HACs except stupidiest Caldari( and Zealot) have drone bays? Btw, 5 small droneas means around 90-100 DPS. It is serious for any tackler, except heavy one. --------------------------------- "Zealot is sniper, because Dominix has better tank" (c) Goumindong R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and |
Elmicker
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.09.14 16:15:00 -
[1139]
Edited by: Elmicker on 14/09/2007 16:15:01
Originally by: Zixxa reasonable drone bay is must.
Not when you've been given the ability to kill them with your turrets. 50m3 is just insane. 15m3 wouldn't go amiss, however
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.14 17:29:00 -
[1140]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
You cannot be serious with this post. Prove it.
Refering to the hypothetical 5 turret double damage bonus eagle w/ 50 cubes, not the current.
ah that ... but then you have actualy a deimos itself not an eagle :-)
With 5 meds and a shield resistance bonus, yes.
IRT: "what about no drones"
An eagle would look pretty good in the short range with 5 guns and a double damage bonus.
But in order to make that not horribly overpowered in the long range it would need to lose at least one optimal bonus. Which means it wouldnt be the sniper it was anymore.
Personally i dont want to see a change that reduces the range of the ship, or the DPS of the ship at long range.
This is why i think it would be best to make changes that increase the viability of the ship in the short range without impacting its ability in the long. There is no reason that the ship should only be usefull in a fleet, but there is also good reason why the ship should not be overpowered in one.
This is why a good solution adds drones and messes with the bonuses to give the ship more shield hit points in my view, it becomes a unique role with definite advantage in certian areas of commonly occuring pvp.
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