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The Economist
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:26:00 -
[1]
Edited by: The Economist on 03/08/2007 16:27:43 First off; it sounds great.
However, I think I've spotted a little balance issue from the dev blog:
"What will it cost? The initial investment will be similar to that of a carrier to build"
"Like other ships in its class, the ORE Capital Ship will also: * Have the ability to fit a clone vat bay"
The first quote defines it as a capital, the second quote however states that it is getting a module that's relegated solely to super-caps (the context of which implies that either it is a super-capital, which it can't be if it has the same cost as a carrier; or someone at ccp is under the impression that carriers can fit clone vat bays, which would seem more likely).
I reckon it should not be able to fit a clone vat bay, otherwise it's just gonna de-value super-caps further.
It would be cheaper and more logistically sound to buy 10 ORE cap ships, have a fleet put ships and clones in them and park them at a pos for everyone to clone jump to; than it would be to get a mothership or titan and use that as intended. Surely this can't be what ccp wants.
Please consider this.
Cheers.
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NoNah
Marzipan Monkeys Distant Star Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:32:00 -
[2]
Perhaps it's just me, but supercapitals is a term defined by players, it's nothing set in stone and nothing new ships must be aligned to or follow at all. It's just there to help describe.
As for the mothership industrial comparisson, the mothership still has quite a few things going for it, such as EW-immunity and well... the ability to do anything but... be a carebear in huge bearmobile.
Post count: 295157
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MyOwnSling
Gallente RONA Corporation FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:38:00 -
[3]
It seems to me that carrier types and now this ORE ship are largely logistics oriented with other areas they specialize in. The clone vat bay just perpetuates this logistic minded approach to certain capital ships. ------------- Stop whining.
Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face...
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Crimson11
Legacy State
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:42:00 -
[4]
Im curious to see if the ship actually can mine or if it is going to be a logistics capital. More or less a freighter with a jump drive and few other neat tricks. This might be ccps attempt at bring capital ORE ships without killing the mineral market. Also this ship might replace the carrier as the main 0.0 transport of large amounts of goods through dangerous territory. Hence why ccp nerfed the gscs in industrials in the ship array in carriers.
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Il Reverendo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.03 16:57:00 -
[5]
Seriously does no-one see the problem here?
Which way is better for moving a non-bs fleet?
A) Mothership, clone vat bay, ships in hold etc, can't jump as far as a carrier, costs 25bil and up to try and buy.
B) 25x ORE cap, clone vat bay, ships in hold etc, jumps a similar range to a carrier, and therefore further than an ms (assumed), costs somewhere around 900mil-1bil
For the same cost in isk the ORE caps will do the job much better.
...and they're supposed to be industrial ships, not fleet logistics.
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.03 17:58:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Il Reverendo Seriously does no-one see the problem here?
Which way is better for moving a non-bs fleet?
A) Mothership, clone vat bay, ships in hold etc, can't jump as far as a carrier, costs 25bil and up to try and buy.
B) 25x ORE cap, clone vat bay, ships in hold etc, jumps a similar range to a carrier, and therefore further than an ms (assumed), costs somewhere around 900mil-1bil
For the same cost in isk the ORE caps will do the job much better.
...and they're supposed to be industrial ships, not fleet logistics.
Who says there's a problem, here. Different ships have different roles It's not at all outlandish to think an industrial capital would out haul a combat capital, even a combat supercapital. It basically boils down to: What would you rather have butting heads with the enemy: One Nyx, or Fifty OREcaps? You're welcome to relegate your industrial carriers to warfare, if a capital graveyard is your thing... ---
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Il Reverendo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:15:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Il Reverendo on 03/08/2007 18:15:26
Originally by: Tamoko
Who says there's a problem, here. Different ships have different roles
...and with this module the ORE industrial capital ship will be able to very efficiently fill a decidedly non-industrial role. More efficiently than ships specifically designed for fleet logistics.
Carriers shouldn't have clone vat bays. ORE Industrial Caps shouldn't have them either.
Letting Industrial Capitals that cost the same as a carrier fit clone vat bays will only serve to screw up game balance.
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Ruciza
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:27:00 -
[8]
We also don't know how many clones the bay can store. In addition, you won't be able to store as many ships in it by far. From what I've heard it comes down to space for four Hulks.
I goes without saying that if you have a jump capable miner support ship it's nice to quickly have miners on site to use it. A clone vat bay is a wonderful help to organize mining ops.
If the vat can store 20+ people, then it's cool to jump additional barges out there with a carrier. People can easily take part in the op from all over the universe.
And yeah, it will be used to support combat ops, no doubt. I would love it. Who cares about 25 billion isk motherships, they shall be devalued, even if they can store many more ships, have long range area effect ECMs, are supertanked and do high damage to all ships. Or 60 billion isk Titans, which have superweapons, and can provide any ship with a jump drive, including freighters.
ORE capitals are not excluded to the combat logistics role. Any military uses trucks and ships which are pretty much civilian vehicles with a darker paint job, sometimes they even load their tanks on just normal freighters rented for the occasion, like the US military.
The good use of those ORE capitals will drive ice prices down, and in general the effort to get capital jump fuel. Carriers can then be used much more cheaply to transport larger ships to the frontlines, making more jumps.
Quote: the second quote however states that it is getting a module that's relegated solely to super-caps (the context of which implies that either it is a super-capital, which it can't be if it has the same cost as a carrier; or someone at ccp is under the impression that carriers can fit clone vat bays, which would seem more likely).
That's your impression only. Not carriers do fit vat bays, ORE capitals do. Totally different type of ship. Although it would really be neat if carriers would do so too. I wouldn't have to do 35+ jumps to an op.
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Counterparty
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:32:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Il Reverendo clone vat bays will only serve to screw up game balance.
Game breaking module spotted: Nerf the clone vats now!
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Il Reverendo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:36:00 -
[10]
Since I'm lazy and feel I've already made the pertinent points, I'll just home in on two of the things you said:
Originally by: Ruciza We also don't know how many clones the bay can store. In addition, you won't be able to store as many ships in it by far. From what I've heard it comes down to space for four Hulks.
Clone bay capacity = level of cloning facility operation skill. 5 clones per level. "Not able to store many ships" and "Space for four Hulks" are two very different statements. If it can fit four hulks it has a capacity of 1 million m3; this equates to around 11 hacs/recons or a lot more inties and dictors. By no means insignificant.
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Il Reverendo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:39:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Counterparty
Originally by: Il Reverendo clone vat bays will only serve to screw up game balance.
Game breaking module spotted: Nerf the clone vats now!
You utter arse-bandit.
What I said was "Letting Industrial Capitals that cost the same as a carrier fit clone vat bays will only serve to screw up game balance."
Posted since as we all know, a lot of people start at the bottom and read up till they find something to flame.
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Anubis Xian
Vertigo One E.A.R.T.H. Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.03 18:45:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Crimson11 Im curious to see if the ship actually can mine or if it is going to be a logistics capital. More or less a freighter with a jump drive and few other neat tricks. This might be ccps attempt at bring capital ORE ships without killing the mineral market. Also this ship might replace the carrier as the main 0.0 transport of large amounts of goods through dangerous territory. Hence why ccp nerfed the gscs in industrials in the ship array in carriers.
The whole 'killing the mineral market' was supposed to happen when Covetors came out.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:18:00 -
[13]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis The volumes of the mining barges and exhumers have been reduced by 50,000m3 and provisionally we are looking at 3-4 hulks worth of ship maintenance bay.
I think this is the solution, if it's just extended a bit further. Adjust ship volumes so that people can't transport more than 2 battleships at a time in an ORE capital, but there's space for about 4 hulks.
------ Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant tanking |
Meat Wadd
Caldari Aquateen Hunger Force
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Posted - 2007.08.03 20:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Meat Wadd on 03/08/2007 20:51:19 Edited by: Meat Wadd on 03/08/2007 20:49:24
Originally by: Crimson11 Im curious to see if the ship actually can mine or if it is going to be a logistics capital. More or less a freighter with a jump drive and few other neat tricks. This might be ccps attempt at bring capital ORE ships without killing the mineral market. Also this ship might replace the carrier as the main 0.0 transport of large amounts of goods through dangerous territory. Hence why ccp nerfed the gscs in industrials in the ship array in carriers.
The ship has no turret slots so no it can not mine. Also it has only a 5LY jump range. So I dont think it is going to haul much of anything ... anyplace
Aqua Teen Hunger Force. Number 1 in the Hood, G |
Sirilonwe
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.04 06:01:00 -
[15]
Just one question: It is able to jump in/out from hi sec systems? Or it is low sec only? ____________________________________ A gift for pirates |
Per Bastet
Amarr B.O.O.M
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Posted - 2007.08.04 07:39:00 -
[16]
Holy Hell people.
Chill. They are just using a Carrier as a base ship to test the Modules, Nothing more.
It will be its own Class of Ship and will be balanced. Who's to Say that that there may not be a Smaller scale version released that does carrier level and the first one won't be the Be all end all like a mothership?
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Chewan Mesa
coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 07:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Sirilonwe Just one question: It is able to jump in/out from hi sec systems? Or it is low sec only?
You cant cyno-jump a ship into high-sec, and since this ship seems to only be able to use its jump-drive, it would be a no, it cant enter highsec.
Concerning the balance between moms and this ship, they do have different roles, and they dont seem to interfere.
The ability to move the size of 4 Hulks doesnt make it a more valuable ship than a Mom, cause it has no EW invulnerability, nor any other offensive power for that matter. And "just" for bringing lots of HACs or Inties to the front line you can already use a carrier anyway, which is better suited for that too, since it has some DPS too.
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Ramblin Man
Empyreum
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Posted - 2007.08.04 08:58:00 -
[18]
Have you guys actually read the dev comments in the blog thread, or just gone off half-cocked?
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achoura
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Posted - 2007.08.04 09:19:00 -
[19]
/me is amused at the number of whiners who must run to the forums and start nerf threads with alts then ***** with alts months before anyone will actually be able to lay hands, and therefore test, a ship.
If you had logical, well constructed and clearly presented arguments against this and posted a thread in the dev section then the devs would take notice. But you can't (no access to the offending ship), you haven't and apparently, can't.
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Orvas Dren
The Nest
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Posted - 2007.08.04 10:31:00 -
[20]
To those that are worried about the ORE Capital being used to haul combat ships. Keep in mind that ORE is not well known for their tanking ability. Hulk excluded their ships generally couldn't tank a rock being thrown at them.
Heck, I wouldn't even be surprised if they make it so a freighter tanks better than these.
Either way, short range jumps, high cost, specialized use and probably heavy skill requirements are going to relagate this to the mining foreman's of each alliance.
I will be the first to laugh at an alliance that gets the bright idea to use these as an insurgent weapon. __________________________________________________________
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n0thing
omen.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 10:49:00 -
[21]
A ship that will cost like carrier and have clone-vat bay will be so much used rather in pvp then in mining. Build few of those and jump anywhere you wish for 10x lower cost.
Tbh I think:
- Limit its jump drive range to 1 LY only. That will prevent ninja squards. Tbh, its a capital mining ship. Thus, it HAS to be used in well protected space.
- No offencive modules, none. Like barge.
- Good drone bay, sure.
---
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Alan Bell
Gallente Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:02:00 -
[22]
Originally by: n0thing A ship that will cost like carrier and have clone-vat bay will be so much used rather in pvp then in mining. Build few of those and jump anywhere you wish for 10x lower cost.
Tbh I think:
- Limit its jump drive range to 1 LY only. That will prevent ninja squards. Tbh, its a capital mining ship. Thus, it HAS to be used in well protected space.
- No offencive modules, none. Like barge.
- Good drone bay, sure.
1 ly? have you flown a capital ship before? you wont be able to go anywhere in that range. considering the jump skill adds a %, you wont be going very far...
wasnt there a fighter sized drone that could mine?
Baka! |
n0thing
omen.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Alan Bell
Originally by: n0thing A ship that will cost like carrier and have clone-vat bay will be so much used rather in pvp then in mining. Build few of those and jump anywhere you wish for 10x lower cost.
Tbh I think:
- Limit its jump drive range to 1 LY only. That will prevent ninja squards. Tbh, its a capital mining ship. Thus, it HAS to be used in well protected space.
- No offencive modules, none. Like barge.
- Good drone bay, sure.
1 ly? have you flown a capital ship before? you wont be able to go anywhere in that range. considering the jump skill adds a %, you wont be going very far...
wasnt there a fighter sized drone that could mine?
Ok, 2 ly + skills. But giving it more will make it next best thing to fly in pvp. Due to again, the clone vat bay. ---
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SIR PRIME
Minmatar Equinox Eternal Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.04 11:55:00 -
[24]
"Tbh, its a capital mining ship."
It can't fit any mining lasers at all (its a gang support ship with mineral compression capability and improved scanning) if you read the blog its explicitly supposed to be for ninja mining gangs.
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.08.04 13:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Il Reverendo Since I'm lazy and feel I've already made the pertinent points, I'll just home in on two of the things you said:
Originally by: Ruciza We also don't know how many clones the bay can store. In addition, you won't be able to store as many ships in it by far. From what I've heard it comes down to space for four Hulks.
Clone bay capacity = level of cloning facility operation skill. 5 clones per level. "Not able to store many ships" and "Space for four Hulks" are two very different statements. If it can fit four hulks it has a capacity of 1 million m3; this equates to around 11 hacs/recons or a lot more inties and dictors. By no means insignificant.
In devblog comment thread it was commented that current maximum for ORE cap ship is 5 clones (mothership max is 25 clones). In my opinion it's ok. It's not like ppl would be using clonebays on titans and motherships anyway currently so don't see how that makes sky falling. It's just enough to jump your small mining gang (or combat gang if thats what you plan to do) to ship.
Only role it endagers currently is carrier as hauler as it would have bigger ship maint array and thus be able to fit more loaded industrials into it.
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vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.04 13:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: NoNah Perhaps it's just me, but supercapitals is a term defined by players, it's nothing set in stone and nothing new ships must be aligned to or follow at all. It's just there to help describe.
Actually, I disagree. Supercapital may well be a player-created term, but it has a pretty clear definition; ships so big they can't dock or be made in stations. The fact that they take months to build is part of the characteristics, of course.
In any case, what exactly is wrong with a capital industrial, one that can haul goods using a jumpdrive? It's not as if people aren't using carriers (and possibly motherships) in that role already. The objections to that are similar IMHO to the objections, way back in the day, to using battleships to mine. I still remember when the Apoc was the best mining ship, followed by the Megathron.
Why, precisely, do people object to others using their own property the way they want to? ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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n0thing
omen.
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Posted - 2007.08.04 14:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: SIR PRIME "Tbh, its a capital mining ship."
It can't fit any mining lasers at all (its a gang support ship with mineral compression capability and improved scanning) if you read the blog its explicitly supposed to be for ninja mining gangs.
It is still an industrial vessel. Would that make sense if industrial ship will be as common on pvp as carriers?
Its like HAC/Recon/Exumer gang. ---
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