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JAHJAH LOVEGANGA
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Posted - 2007.08.12 06:06:00 -
[1]
Many committed eve players are well invested in Inventions these days. I am here to ***** cause I strongly believe that ship invention needs some love.
Even with the increase of mechanical engineering research agents, the cost is still too high per invention when the fail rate is so huge. I have been inventing for about 3 months, and my success rate is less than 15%. Even with great skills it is still very poor. The success to fail ratio on ships to me is a freaking mystery. although the idea of anyone being able to invent t2 ships is a good idea, i think its not where it should be. I mean I am losing money trying to invent ships...I could have just made the 10 jumps to Jita and bought them myself.
I thought the point of invention was to make it so the average eve player can build a t2 ship himself, I got some news for you CCP...the average eve player pays real money for their isk to fill their hangers...while the dedicated eve players (like myself) are wasting the money they worked for in game on spaceship invention.
i think for now I'll go back to hauling...
Bottom line....Ship Invention is not tight...
wheres our invention skill? WE WANT IT NOW!!!!NOT LATER!!!!
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Brutor Shaun
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Posted - 2007.08.12 08:24:00 -
[2]
I'm in the same boat as you, while others seem to be making a tidy profit.
I'm wondering if there isn't some part of the chance equation that takes into account the players name? (Joking)
It looks to be going the same way as the T2 lottery, but to a lesser extent. Some people were very luck, quite often. Others were lucky once. Others got nothing.
Me and you are in the 'nothing' group.
I gave up months ago.
Bookmark Idea - My skills
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Braaage
Laborius Chapter
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Posted - 2007.08.12 08:42:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun I gave up months ago.
Ditto! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- eve-guides.com POS, Outpost and Sovereignty info |
Del Torres
Caldari A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.08.12 11:28:00 -
[4]
I did yesterday calculate the costs of inventing Astartes. After 3 hrs of looking up all prices and hacking them into a table calc, I came to the conclusion: Even with 50% base chance of success (and we all know that is not true for ships) there is no way to make money out of it. Invest 400m, get lucky to get one 10 run bpc (yeah with the 0.4 modificator), buy mats for it, build ship, sell for market price - and get 400m win out of it. Yay for those with BPO and good ME levels. I thought invention was introduced to get rid of the monopoly of the BPO users ?
I mean, even with ME 0 level for invention, a BPO user would still have advantage cause he does not need to invest the mats for inventing... and then, if you take the real chances of success.. well..
Really sad to see how this works out.
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Tratok Aran
Minmatar Alternative Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.12 11:43:00 -
[5]
Originally by: JAHJAH LOVEGANGA I thought the point of invention was to make it so the average eve player can build a t2 ship himself
It never was a point. A point was to make it so dedicated industrialist can build t2 ships. To remove T2 BPO owners monopoly. Average eve player can make t2 modules pretty easily though.
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Liv Dawn
PPN United Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.12 11:48:00 -
[6]
I tend to agree. Though i am a strong supporter of the "the market will do it" - idea i see the ship invention a bit behind to module invention because of the addition of three effects:
* sucess gives 1 run instead of 10 for modules and * it takes 4 times as much datacores and * base sucess chance seems to be the half of the modules one.
Besides it takes longer etc but i think its many steps behind the modules. So adapt and invent 40 Runs of Cargohold II or whatever every 2,5 hours instead of 2 Vagas in two days.
(without decryptors)
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Kaaii
Caldari Equilibrium LLC
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Posted - 2007.08.12 16:19:00 -
[7]
While module invention seems to be working "correctly" (whatever that is) percentages of ship invention seem to be way off. Ive read 30% for some, and I personally just broke a 77 run failing streak with a 1 run munin.
I get more successes with lvl 4 encryption than lvl 5. I have two races at lvl 4 and a 3rd at level 5 so i have a pretty hard baseline of what is what.
Its my belief that lvl 5 encryption chances are "broken" as was the tact shield skill for the last year, before they finally found and fixed the error (after saying it was "working as intended")
"Id rather fall beside 10 Lions, than stand with 1000 sheep.."
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Jastra
Gallente Core Domination Big Bang Quantum
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Posted - 2007.08.12 17:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Kaaii
While module invention seems to be working "correctly" (whatever that is) percentages of ship invention seem to be way off. Ive read 30% for some, and I personally just broke a 77 run failing streak with a 1 run munin.
That's incredible patience! - thanks for posting this stuff because it just underlines that the time and expense of getting into the market is not yet worth it for most.
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Lady Natacha
Minmatar Water and Power
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Posted - 2007.08.12 17:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kaaii
I get more successes with lvl 4 encryption than lvl 5. I have two races at lvl 4 and a 3rd at level 5 so i have a pretty hard baseline of what is what.
Its my belief that lvl 5 encryption chances are "broken" as was the tact shield skill for the last year, before they finally found and fixed the error (after saying it was "working as intended")
I have seen a noticeable drop in the success rate of one of our regular module invention jobs right after getting one of its primary engineering skills to level 5 (was 4/4/4, now is 4/5/4). The tactical shield manipulation skill bug came immediately to mind.
250M implant may disappear: Linkage
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JAHJAH LOVEGANGA
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Posted - 2007.08.12 19:32:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Del Torres I did yesterday calculate the costs of inventing Astartes. After 3 hrs of looking up all prices and hacking them into a table calc, I came to the conclusion: Even with 50% base chance of success (and we all know that is not true for ships) there is no way to make money out of it. Invest 400m, get lucky to get one 10 run bpc
NOT TO MENTION stolen formula (best chance gallente data core) is over HALF THE COST THE SHIP ITSELF...
i was going for amarr command ships and i failed 2 in a row last night, and i just had to yell at something...
i think if they just made an invention skill to better the chance of success it would fix everything. |
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Yaong
MoonRabbit Council
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Posted - 2007.08.13 00:33:00 -
[11]
My thinking is,
Rise datacore price. Rise success chance rate. Total result/cost ratio will not be changed.
But It will make invention business more predictive.
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Phoenix T'ril
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.13 02:19:00 -
[12]
When I started looking into the possibility of expanding my repertoire of 'stuff to do', or to get into, I looked into Invention. I painstakingly started plotting out all of it; the datacore and startup costs versus the expected sell prices for the modules, and even the blueprints alone, and the chances I'd actually see something I could produce.
Conclusion:
Nothing was profitable, save three types of modules, and it wasn't worth my time to try for those three because the competition was driving the price down steadily to where it wasn't profitable. -- I do not speak for my corp, or my alliance. |
Queen Hopy
Your Friendly Booster Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 05:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: JAHJAH LOVEGANGA Edited by: JAHJAH LOVEGANGA on 12/08/2007 19:35:07 Many committed eve players are well invested in Inventions these days. I am here to b**** cause I strongly believe that ship invention needs some love.
Even with the increase of mechanical engineering research agents, the cost is still too high per invention when the fail rate is so huge. I have been inventing for about 3 months, and my success rate is less than 15%. Even with great skills it is still very poor. The success to fail ratio on ships to me is a freaking mystery. although the idea of anyone being able to invent t2 ships is a good idea, i think its not where it should be. I mean I am losing money trying to invent ships...I could have just made the 10 jumps to Jita and bought them myself.
I thought the point of invention was to make it so the average eve player can build a t2 ship himself, I got some news for you CCP...the average eve player pays real money for their isk to fill their hangers...while the dedicated eve players (like myself) are wasting the money they worked for in game on spaceship invention.
i think for now I'll go back to hauling...
Bottom line....Ship Invention is not tight...
wheres our invention skill? WE WANT IT NOW!!!!NOT LATER!!!!
You got it all wrong. Invention already did what it was ment to do, it brought t2 down to affordable level. For example hulks now cost what, 120mil? When they used to cost 500mil.
And anyway its stupid inventors that drive down the ship invention profit by selling their ships too cheap. Wait until they run out of ISK and the price will settle at something like invention cost + 10% or something similar. In the meanwhile, invent modules.
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Athanasios Anastasiou
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.08.13 07:06:00 -
[14]
Originally by: JAHJAH LOVEGANGA Edited by: JAHJAH LOVEGANGA on 12/08/2007 19:35:07 Many committed eve players are well invested in Inventions these days. I am here to b**** cause I strongly believe that ship invention needs some love.
Even with the increase of mechanical engineering research agents, the cost is still too high per invention when the fail rate is so huge. I have been inventing for about 3 months, and my success rate is less than 15%. Even with great skills it is still very poor. The success to fail ratio on ships to me is a freaking mystery. although the idea of anyone being able to invent t2 ships is a good idea, i think its not where it should be. I mean I am losing money trying to invent ships...I could have just made the 10 jumps to Jita and bought them myself.
I thought the point of invention was to make it so the average eve player can build a t2 ship himself, I got some news for you CCP...the average eve player pays real money for their isk to fill their hangers...while the dedicated eve players (like myself) are wasting the money they worked for in game on spaceship invention.
i think for now I'll go back to hauling...
Bottom line....Ship Invention is not tight...
wheres our invention skill? WE WANT IT NOW!!!!NOT LATER!!!!
Yay one less person inventing ships... Less competition and more iskies for me.
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Trak Cranker
Serenity Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.13 12:48:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kaaii
While module invention seems to be working "correctly" (whatever that is) percentages of ship invention seem to be way off. Ive read 30% for some, and I personally just broke a 77 run failing streak with a 1 run munin.
I get more successes with lvl 4 encryption than lvl 5. I have two races at lvl 4 and a 3rd at level 5 so i have a pretty hard baseline of what is what.
Care to expand on what ingredients you used for those 78 runs?
And as far as hard baselines go, could you outline how many tries you have had at each level?
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Eton Favre
Instagate Corp Shroud Of Darkness
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Posted - 2007.08.13 16:15:00 -
[16]
Just because something is inventable does not mean it will be profitable. Invention was never intended to bring T2 production to the average player.
It requires both dedicating skills and isk to the project. Any industry in eve you are going to have players that are good at it because they have invested time in researching the market and what ingredients produce the most profit, and those that spend 400 mil to invent a 3 mil ship.
the people who loose tons of money get out of invention due to being broke. T1 production is the same way I use to but T1 ships below mineral cost and relist them. I am not talking about frigates. go into Jita and look at some T2 modules there are a number of them below what Jita build price is.
-- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=573770 Industy nerf Incoming - CCP devs Hate Carebears |
Jastra
Gallente Core Domination Big Bang Quantum
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Posted - 2007.08.13 16:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Eton Favre Just because something is inventable does not mean it will be profitable. Invention was never intended to bring T2 production to the average player.
It requires both dedicating skills and isk to the project. Any industry in eve you are going to have players that are good at it because they have invested time in researching the market and what ingredients produce the most profit, and those that spend 400 mil to invent a 3 mil ship.
the people who loose tons of money get out of invention due to being broke. T1 production is the same way I use to but T1 ships below mineral cost and relist them. I am not talking about frigates. go into Jita and look at some T2 modules there are a number of them below what Jita build price is.
If people with high skills still only have a remote chance based success rate then what you've said doesnt hold water, I could be uber skilled and still fail many many times, as was stated elsewhere. That isnt replacing the t2 lottery, thats just moving the lottery to become something possibly even more frustrating and actually costing you ISK in the process. If the chances we fixed, and generally reported, like it will always be 25% with this mixture and these skills, that I could accept, blind faith I cant, no one in the right mind can build a business off blind chance, I can build a business on t1 manufacture.
Below the Jita build price is lazy missioners or ignorant builders, they wont go broke since they are assuming minerals are free, and thats fine, they may never get rich but they'll still percieve they are making money, and perception is king.
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Space Chicky
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Posted - 2007.08.13 16:55:00 -
[18]
I agree, ship invention is an endless money pit. I have made tens of billions of isk from it, and it doesn't seem to be slowing down all that much anytime soon. I'm glad to hear about so many people getting out of it, more profits for me.
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Trak Cranker
Serenity Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.13 17:08:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Jastra
If the chances we fixed, and generally reported, like it will always be 25% with this mixture and these skills, that I could accept, blind faith I cant, no one in the right mind can build a business off blind chance, I can build a business on t1 manufacture.
Nothing contradicts that chances are fixed to certain percentage for a given set of skills and ingredients. So start accepting.
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Jastra
Gallente Core Domination Big Bang Quantum
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Posted - 2007.08.13 17:56:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Originally by: Jastra
If the chances we fixed, and generally reported, like it will always be 25% with this mixture and these skills, that I could accept, blind faith I cant, no one in the right mind can build a business off blind chance, I can build a business on t1 manufacture.
Nothing contradicts that chances are fixed to certain percentage for a given set of skills and ingredients. So start accepting.
so whats the %?
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Queen Hopy
Your Friendly Booster Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jastra
Originally by: Trak Cranker
Originally by: Jastra
If the chances we fixed, and generally reported, like it will always be 25% with this mixture and these skills, that I could accept, blind faith I cant, no one in the right mind can build a business off blind chance, I can build a business on t1 manufacture.
Nothing contradicts that chances are fixed to certain percentage for a given set of skills and ingredients. So start accepting.
so whats the %?
That's what you gotta figure out doing invention.
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:27:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Braaage
Originally by: Brutor Shaun I gave up months ago.
Ditto!
I haven't given up yet but I'm only going to give it one more go when I've researched up some more BPCs. I had a look at cashing in my RP but they aren't worth anything either.
Overall at present I'm dissappointed..but hopeful. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
This is not a signature |
Zeph Solaris
Caldari Firing Squad Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 21:41:00 -
[23]
My success rate is exactly 12.5% with user manuals. One in eight inventions suceeding with level 4 skills throughout isn't exactly fun. I could use the higher chance decryptors, but they're rediculously expensive and they drive the ME too low to even hope of breaking even. I went to go sell the ship data interface, but the market price has dropped too far and is extremely hard to sell, even in Jita. Seeing that people have level 5 skills and have no better success isn't very inspiring to spend the next 62 days training. It's not mentioned in any of the guides, but would training the skill 'hacking' improve any odds?
Honestly, I wish I had put the 750k skillpoints and 800 million ISK into training something else. I could be in a Hulk if I hadn't trained for invention :(
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Max Hardcase
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.08.13 22:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Lady Natacha
Originally by: Kaaii
I get more successes with lvl 4 encryption than lvl 5. I have two races at lvl 4 and a 3rd at level 5 so i have a pretty hard baseline of what is what.
Its my belief that lvl 5 encryption chances are "broken" as was the tact shield skill for the last year, before they finally found and fixed the error (after saying it was "working as intended")
I have seen a noticeable drop in the success rate of one of our regular module invention jobs right after getting one of its primary engineering skills to level 5 (was 4/4/4, now is 4/5/4). The tactical shield manipulation skill bug came immediately to mind.
If you suspect a mistake/error do a bug report on it.
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Atreus Danerun
Amarr Caldari Bank
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Posted - 2007.08.14 01:59:00 -
[25]
You guys must have hit a slump.
I just had 10 Successful Jobs in last month on Ishtar and Deimos invention. Each job yielded a 4 Run BPC with -4 ME/PE. Thats 20 Ishtars and 20 Deimos, a total of 30 days worth of production.
I used Colission Reports. No meta Items. My skills are all at L5. I ran 30 Jobs altogether, thats a 33.3% success rate.
Just because some people do not get any lucky strikes on invention, it does not mean it is not working for others. The price of HACs and Hulks is the testament to it. Although, I must admit I did not do invention for about two months prior to running this batch, I just had some extra ISK to burn and I cashed in my Mech. Eng. Agent for datacores finally, so I ran the jobs to see how it will go.
T2 SALES & SERVICE RESELLER OPPORTUNITY |
Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.14 12:13:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Andrue on 14/08/2007 12:13:55 Could it be that the chance is game-wide rather than player-specific?
If the %ge was per player then I think that 25% chance would mean 1 in 4 jobs succeeded for you. With this system you'd be guaranteed some success.
OTOH if it's game-wide then it only means that of all the jobs currently running only 1 in 4 jobs will succeed regardless of who is running them. In this case you aren't guaranteed anything.
Does anyone know? The advantage of the latter is that it rewards those that treat invention as a career. Those people will run more jobs and that makes them more likely to be amongst the winners.
Put crudely: Player A is a part-time inventor and only runs one job a week. Player B is a full-time inventor and runs three jobs a week.
If the %ge chance is 25%, game-wide and we assume that one job will succeed then I think player A has a 1 in 4 chance of success. Player B has a 3 in 4 chance of success.
Game-wide chance would be closer to the original lottery idea and CCP might want to reward those that take it more seriously. -- (Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
This is not a signature |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.14 12:43:00 -
[27]
I want cheaper T2 ships so I fully support this thread! \o/
- Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas |
Schneiderr
Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:59:00 -
[28]
t2 is already pretty cheap, invention is working well, you guys ever checked the market? prices are fine and if it wouldnt calculate for all those inventors, they would be little higher... or do you think they are all throwing isk out of the window just to give the rest of the pilots cheap ships to buy?
and tbh the prices and profit margins for t1 frigs are a lot better than for t2 stuff anyways... also easier to build, less time consuming :)
/me loves the vigil
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Lord Dynastron
Mystical Knights Legionnaire Services Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:03:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Atreus Danerun
The price of HACs and Hulks is the testament to it.
Really,, thats all there is to it as is stands currently. Invention is working VERY well. Too well if you are a HAC or Hulk or various other BPO owner.
And, here is the rub... if it works 'too well' then profits for all inventors start to fall. I have done some inventing,, for me, it always end up a break even scenario. I need less people in invention so the prices go back up thus making it profitable again.
So,,, umm... I need it to be a tad less successful. I made pretty good money when Hulks were up around 200m... but now.. pfft... not worth it.
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Trak Cranker
Serenity Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:07:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 14/08/2007 16:09:17 Edited by: Trak Cranker on 14/08/2007 16:08:39
Originally by: Andrue Edited by: Andrue on 14/08/2007 12:13:55 Could it be that the chance is game-wide rather than player-specific?
It not only could be, it most assuredly is. Otherwise it would be meaningless to make it chancebased.
Originally by: Andrue
Does anyone know? The advantage of the latter is that it rewards those that treat invention as a career. Those people will run more jobs and that makes them more likely to be amongst the winners.
And exactly for that reason it is a somewhat good idea. Except they wont be more likely to be among the winners - but be more likely to outlast bad runs.
Originally by: Andrue
Put crudely: Player A is a part-time inventor and only runs one job a week. Player B is a full-time inventor and runs three jobs a week.
If the %ge chance is 25%, game-wide and we assume that one job will succeed then I think player A has a 1 in 4 chance of success. Player B has a 3 in 4 chance of success.
You can never assume that a hit will come in any given streak, though. He has 1-0,75^3 = 0,578125 = 0,58% chance of at least one success.
Originally by: Andrue
Game-wide chance would be closer to the original lottery idea and CCP might want to reward those that take it more seriously.
Closer yes. Except the chance of winning has been increased immmensely while the prizes have been decreased. And for just the reason you assume, I beleive.
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