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El Codge
El Codge's Emporium of Exotic Delights
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Posted - 2007.08.12 15:28:00 -
[1]
Edited by: El Codge on 12/08/2007 15:32:34 As the name says, i'd like to see T1 module production become a lot easier to make money with.
As it stands at the moment, the perception is that there a lot more PvPers in the game than industrial types. This basically means that the demand for T2 modules is only going to increase, making the T2 production cartels a lot richer, leaving newer players who might be interested in this aspect of the game struggle to make a living.
Currently as I see it, there is no incentive to get into T1 production, with the possible exception of Battlecruisers and Battleships. T1 modules can be bought from NPC corps and there is plenty of it dropped in loot from missions as well.
To give the t1 industry a boot up the back side, I would like to see what would happen if the following changes took place:
NPC corps no longer produce T1 unnamed equipment - only sell the BPOs.
No more unnamed drops from Mission loot.
Make Named drops a lot scarcer, but possibly with an increase in salvagable items.
Allow invention on T1 BPOs to create named items, eventually leading on further down the line to...
Research on module's stats (less cpu, less PG, higher ROF etc)
This should pretty much hand the entire market over to the players. The benefits of this I think would be:
Encourage newer players to take up industry as a profession,
Give younger players more to do at beginning of their game
Increased demand for minerals - making mining more attractive,
Decreased supply of T1 items, slightly raising prices - more attractive to Newbie traders. This would also have the benefit of making pirates aware that all the modules on their ships are made by the people they're currently ransoming / ganking:-) Pirates could then ransom for standings / cheap item supply instead of just the isk.
More chance of getting yourself into a niche production market - no one corp can make everything to start off with. It would also help to develop player brand names - E.G If my corp heavily invested in research in CPU needs for Missile Launchers, [ECEED] could become the next "Malkuth". Another corp may research the ROF, becoming the new "Arbalest" for example.
Research would work a lot like skills levels do now - 5 levels, each taking 5xlonger than the last to research, with various ranks to them - e.g. CPU need (-5%) may be rank 1, whilst ROF (-5%) would be rank 5. Mineral costs would increase with each level gained to offset this.
Researching named items would be the same as T2 - it produced a BPC, but the success rate would be greater the lower you aim - e.g. it should be easier to invent Malkuth than it should be to invent Arbalest (which is almost T2).
Obviously this would require a lot more research slots opening, but rather than simply add more to the existing NPC stations, make it easier to us POS research posts. They should appear in the science and industry tab with all the other stations - the cost and tax being set the by owning corp, with your standings to that corp being taken into account the same as an npc corp would be. Basically try and make it so you don't have to set up an alt corp and join a small alliance just to research some BPOs.
This would also have the benefit of encouraging more player interaction - Is that POS charging you too much for research? Perhaps setting up a contract to supply fuel for the POS would give you a standing increase to make research cheaper!
This would be a sort of mid-end game for empire based production corps to aspire to before moving fully into the tech 2 game.
I don't have all the answers, but any critique or suggestions on expanding this are most welcome!
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Carniflex
Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project
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Posted - 2007.08.12 16:26:00 -
[2]
Most of those ideas were considered but did not make it. Instead we got invention in it's current form.
As far as 'branding' goes at least. In any case it's not likely that CCP would let you research BPO's. At best you might hope to get it implemented on BPC's.
T1 production is already viable. Profit margins are just relatively low in most cases but if you pick your spot wisely it's feasible.
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El Codge
El Codge's Emporium of Exotic Delights
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Posted - 2007.08.12 17:16:00 -
[3]
Fair comments.
I guess the primary point of this thread is to generate ideas for things to do in the lower end of the market.
The past couple of expansions having "added on" (i.e. extending the end game) rather than "adding in" or fleshing out what already exists.
By branding, I didn't necessarly mean that on the "show info" it would say "El Codge's Heavy Destructomatic 2000 launcher", but rather you'd sell it like you normally would - via your bio, trade channels, forums etc. You'd get the advantage from your niche: "my launchers are reknowned for their conservative use of CPU" for example.
Another feature to facilitate this could be in-game player corp advertising (possibly in the backdrops of the station hangars)?
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Elite Marksman
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Posted - 2007.08.12 17:52:00 -
[4]
The problem with that is that each "branded" module would require its own entry in the database. One solution is that you could research a BPC to turn it into a named BPC.
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Gretek Lal
Minmatar Fractal Holdings Ltd.
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Posted - 2007.08.13 00:45:00 -
[5]
Well, I really like your ideas. They would particularly benefit players like me, casual players who just don't have the time to play Eve 24/7 or log on every 15 minutes to train new skills.
You ideas would benefit casual players and players who don't really care about being uber.
As things are, there just isn't much new content at the lower end of the game. Everything is oriented toward pvp and 0.0.
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Triana
Gallente MMK Design and Logistic
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Posted - 2007.08.13 09:42:00 -
[6]
Well i must say i disagree somewhat with OP. T1 production is profitable under few conditions: 1- research investment to lower production cost 2- secure steady and low cost mineral supply 3- Work on volume 4- Choose your selling points (very important)
with those conditions u can make a steady profit out of T1 production -- War is like any other bad relationship. Of course you want out, but at what price? And perhaps more importantly, once you get out, will you be any better off? |
Pizi
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.13 17:42:00 -
[7]
they said in the mat compression thread that they will rework the loottables to not dropin so many T1 _______________________________________________ EVEpedia[Deutsch/German] add
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Caligulus
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:41:00 -
[8]
T1 production can be very profitable if your in the right place and have an extensive BPO collection. At least, I make more money then my friend that does T2 ship invention. haha
I mission run and I produce a lot of goods for the t1 market. If you rework the loot tables to drop no standard T1 mods and fewer named mods then you'll be hurting mission runners and producers alike quite substantially. A lot of minerals sold on the market derive from reprocessed loot. What exactly would the developers do to replace this? Put larger bounties on mission NPCs? It still screws producers and consumers on mineral costs.
I definitely think that NPC stations shouldn't be selling any T1 gear with the exception of shuttles.
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Moonpusher
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:22:00 -
[9]
I agree with the T1 lack of production feasability. I've only been in the game for five days or so, and I optomized my character for manufacturing, thinking "awesome, I can make stuff and sell it to people, what a great game" sadly, this is not the case.
I purchased a Minmatar Slasher BPO, and started making a few from resources I mined. I sold them relatively cheap, but then I realized, thanks to an Excel sheet, that it was 50% more cost effective to actually straight up sell the refined minerals than to make the ship. I thought, okay, maybe because its the second ship that most Minmatar will own in the game, so there's an NPC advantage.
I looked into the Minmatar Thrasher earlier today and did a cost analysis of manufacturing it from a BPO. In fact, you get nearly double the price for just selling away your minerals instead of making it a ship. You actually LOSE VALUE by manufacturing. I did this calculation with both my character's skills, and the "perfect" skills, and the results did not change much. I looked at the possibility of manufacturing ammo or rockets but still there seems to be no profit in it, compared to the NPC price.
Does this get any better in higher levels? Why is this so flawed?
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Behedwin
RSP Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:25:00 -
[10]
I think the idea of inventing a t1 bpo into a named bpc is good. Maybe you can choise what you want to invent on, t2 or named. Or it should be chance based like everything els... you start invention and a t2 or named bpc drops out or you just get nothing.
But some named stuff is worth less than the t1 module (atleast i think so).
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RSP Enterprises .
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Elite Marksman
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:41:00 -
[11]
The only named items that are worth less than t1 are the 'basic' items. Although I'm not sure if they are variants of the t1 item or their own item.
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Behedwin
RSP Enterprises
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:36:00 -
[12]
Ok might be that. So then being able to boost market with named stuff frome bpc¦s that you invented could be nice... You should ofc not know what named thing you would get... some are sold for alot more than the t1 and the t2 module and some is bairly a profit.
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RSP Enterprises .
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Heartcarver
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:41:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Moonpusher I agree with the T1 lack of production feasability. I've only been in the game for five days or so, and I optomized my character for manufacturing, thinking "awesome, I can make stuff and sell it to people, what a great game" sadly, this is not the case.
I purchased a Minmatar Slasher BPO, and started making a few from resources I mined. I sold them relatively cheap, but then I realized, thanks to an Excel sheet, that it was 50% more cost effective to actually straight up sell the refined minerals than to make the ship. I thought, okay, maybe because its the second ship that most Minmatar will own in the game, so there's an NPC advantage.
I looked into the Minmatar Thrasher earlier today and did a cost analysis of manufacturing it from a BPO. In fact, you get nearly double the price for just selling away your minerals instead of making it a ship. You actually LOSE VALUE by manufacturing. I did this calculation with both my character's skills, and the "perfect" skills, and the results did not change much. I looked at the possibility of manufacturing ammo or rockets but still there seems to be no profit in it, compared to the NPC price.
Does this get any better in higher levels? Why is this so flawed?
It's flawed because its early in the game for you. When you have production efficiency 5 (which is absolutely necessary to make isk) and well researched BPO's you start to make a good amount of manufacturing. Problem is without prod eff 5, you do make more isk selling minerals
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aklein24
Absolutely No Return
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:40:00 -
[14]
I like your "branding" idea. I think that all the stats of the end item should be researchable. As in, I buy a standard missile launcher bpo, and instead of just being able to research ME/PE alone, I can research ME/PE, ROF, reload rate, PG, CPU and so on. Then you could eliminate the Malkuth/Arbys and you could just buy a researched item. Or maybe all the stats could be researchable/improvable on the end item. Either way it would open up new markets and careers.
-Andy
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Rafein
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:32:00 -
[15]
only problem is named mods are almost always better than Tech 1. If rats are changed to only drop named mods, the only reason for T1 to exist is to turn into T2.
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Arwen Ariniel
Gallente Shaolin Legacy
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:37:00 -
[16]
Being in the T1 manufacturing business for two and a half years now, I can only say it isn't flawed, if you play it smart. Profit margins of 100% and more can be found, but you have to do your homework. And selling slashers in minmatar space is not exactly doing your homework.
And just for the record, the T1 manufacturing did get some love recently with increased production times on ammunition, which raised prices considerably and opened up a lot of room for new players to get into manufacturing (and gave my corp a hell of a boost on margins )
One proposal I do like, is the possibility to research/invent T1 named items. Inventing it and getting a random bpc would be best tho, in my opinion, else everyone would just start researching arbalest cruise missile launchers and crash that market segment. |
pandymen
Caldari Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
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Posted - 2007.08.14 23:18:00 -
[17]
Yeah, umm..sorry, but I have over 20+ items atm on sell orders that I make a decent profit off of. T1 production is hardly faulty, and npcs do not make t1 modules...it's all player driven. It's just that there is a large supply for certain things and you may have to look elsewhere or at other items.
---------------------------------------------> Red Dwarf is currently recruiting missioners, miners, and 0.0 ratters. Please contact me in-game for details or join channel Red Dwarf Recruitment. |
El Codge
El Codge's Emporium of Exotic Delights
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Posted - 2007.08.15 01:50:00 -
[18]
Thanks for all the comments so far - plenty of constructive crits here
In regard to named invention, I was basing it on the fact that each item already has an "item value" that helps with the chance of inventing anyway. I was just pondering whether this could be opened up - if you aim lower, the higher chance you get, eg:
Name: Item level: Chance: Heavy Launcher II 5 12.5% Arbalest Heavy 4 25% XR-3200 Missile 3 37.5% Advanced Limos 2 50% Malkuth Heavy 1 62.5%
This is just an example of context - obviously the chance would need to be balanced a bit, but the gamble should be put into the player's hands. Malkuth's are obviously not as immediately profitable as Arbalests, but with a much higher success rate, it may prove more profitable in the long run?
It would then be a case of the player weighing the costs / time. I feel this may be better than the random named option - you could put a ton of work, time and money into it and still only come out with a Malkuth BPC, which I don't think would be fair.
Again, crits are most welcome!
you'll have to excuse the crummy formatting
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Brucette
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Posted - 2007.08.15 02:12:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Caligulus ...Put larger bounties on mission NPCs? It still screws producers and consumers on mineral costs.
Not to pick on you in particular, but why to people seem to regard belt rats as some sort of sacred cow? I would like to see _all_ rats have their drops brutally reduced. Belt rats cause just as many, possibly even more (given that mission rats have already been brutally nerfed), economic problems as mission rats.
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Artemdorius
Gallente Puzzleball Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.15 06:01:00 -
[20]
As a manufacturer for over a year now, I have to comment that I see very little problems with the current T1 system. Is every T1 BPO profitable? No. But most are. You just need to pick your markets. (Hint: The farther away from 1.0 you get, the more profitable manufacturing becomes)
As for the plethora of T1 loot dropping from rats, I don't really see the problem with that either. If, in the example given above where the ship sold for 50% of it's build cost, it becomes an item ideal for reprocessing into minerals, thus cutting your build costs on more profitable items significantly. I have found many times that placing buy orders for crap loot and then refining them was much more lucrative than simply buying minerals or mining them.
A second point with lowering T1 loot drops would be that it could very well cause a shortage of higher end minerals in empire, which would actually make manufacturing less profitable in the long run, since our only supply would be 0.0 alliances hauling stuff back to empire.
AFAIK with the exception of some of the smaller ships NPC corps don't sell T1 unnamed equipment currently.
I do like the idea of making named BPCs an option in invention. But I think it should be entirely random. When you attempt an invention job, there could a % chance you get a T2 BPC, a % chance you get a named BPC (some of which could be more valuable than the T2 equivalent) and a % chance you get nothing.
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CCP Chronotis
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Posted - 2007.08.15 07:07:00 -
[21]
Interesting comments and I would tend to agree that even in its fairly saturated state, tech 1 profits are to be had (with some very high margins) with the right choice of items to make, especially something as simple as ammo if your near a mission running hub for example as a nice starter.
As I mentioned in a comment elsewhere, we are looking to overhaul loot tables and decrease the drops of player made tech 1 in exchange for meta equivalents for eg to help reinvigorate the market a little as an ongoing project.
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Battlecheese
Caldari Cheers Restaurant and Bar Coalition Of Empires
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Posted - 2007.08.15 08:14:00 -
[22]
There is a lot to be said for carefully looking at the market, and then not giving up after a few days.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.15 15:47:00 -
[23]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Interesting comments and I would tend to agree that even in its fairly saturated state, tech 1 profits are to be had (with some very high margins) with the right choice of items to make, especially something as simple as ammo if your near a mission running hub for example as a nice starter.
As I mentioned in a comment elsewhere, we are looking to overhaul loot tables and decrease the drops of player made tech 1 in exchange for meta equivalents for eg to help reinvigorate the market a little as an ongoing project.
I find it interesting that CCP wants to remove ISK bounties from missions and yet INCREASE loot drops to compensate. Greater loot drops == fewer people making money in T1 equipment.
I understand the need to stop injecting ISK into the economy but you are doing it at the expense of beginning and intermediate manufacturers....
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Vigor Ekem
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Posted - 2007.08.15 16:20:00 -
[24]
STOP SELLING IN JITA!!!!!
No really , you need to do some research first..As has been said prod eff 5 is a must for ships along with good prints.. My advice for new builders is , 1.build consumables while training skills = ammo , drones and such. frigs will net very little profit, cruisers more so and so on . 2.sell away from places like jita, rens. try systems near 0.0 pipes or mission hubs. 3.start small and build up I have made biliions on t1 stuff and continue to plus much more with t2 invention added 4.dont be ina hurry to sell. sell just above the lowest price 1-2 spots above. 5.sorry anything else is classified
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swoj
The New Order. United Connection's
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Posted - 2007.08.15 17:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
I find it interesting that CCP wants to remove ISK bounties from missions and yet INCREASE loot drops to compensate. Greater loot drops == fewer people making money in T1 equipment.
I understand the need to stop injecting ISK into the economy but you are doing it at the expense of beginning and intermediate manufacturers....
I thought it was just a case of lvl5 missions not having isk rewards, therefore not creating a new isk source in the game, not that they are removing existing isk sources. With lvl 1, 2 and 3 (and I think 4) being left as they are, there would be little effect on the beginning characters, it would just affect the high level players you are probably kitting their ships with T2 or better anyway.
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong :)
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.15 19:20:00 -
[26]
Originally by: swoj
I thought it was just a case of lvl5 missions not having isk rewards, therefore not creating a new isk source in the game, not that they are removing existing isk sources. With lvl 1, 2 and 3 (and I think 4) being left as they are, there would be little effect on the beginning characters, it would just affect the high level players you are probably kitting their ships with T2 or better anyway.
I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong :)
Not just level 5s, ALL factional missions have no bounties on them (yes, including the level 1-4 ones). This represents the majority of the "new" missions of all levels.
But no, they haven't altered any of the non-factional missions *yet*.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Dr Aryandi
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:27:00 -
[27]
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Interesting comments and I would tend to agree that even in its fairly saturated state, tech 1 profits are to be had (with some very high margins) with the right choice of items to make, especially something as simple as ammo if your near a mission running hub for example as a nice starter.
As I mentioned in a comment elsewhere, we are looking to overhaul loot tables and decrease the drops of player made tech 1 in exchange for meta equivalents for eg to help reinvigorate the market a little as an ongoing project.
But that doesn't help at all. The only thing I make is ammo and ships, I experimented with modules and looked at the market and it was virtually pointless...
Why?
Because anyone with any money immediately buys named stuff, I don't remember the last time I fitted a non-named item to my ships. Even as a newbie I used low end named stuff.
Simple example. Lets say I decide 'Power Diagnostic Systems' are a good module, I'll start making them. So I go and buy the BPO and research it and make 50 and put them on the market for a small markup. But no-one will buy them except the occasional noob and maybe the odd cheapskate fitting for pvp.
Why would you buy a 5% module when a little bit more isk will get you a 6 or 7% one.
Ammo is good to make - as the faction ammo is rare and expensive.
Ships are good to make - as faction ships are rare and expensive.
Drones are ok, fighters are good money. Again there are no faction alternatives.
Any module where NPCs drop named version is basically worthless to an industrialist. The BPOs might as well not exist.
I used to make large shield transporters. Got a nice profit on it too. Then NPCs started dropping them and I've sold 3 since that patch.
So I tried invention. For modules it wasn't too bad but I recently tried inventing a nighthawk. Out of 9 tries we got one success. A vulture.
With the negative ME it would cost nearly 100 mill to build (even building the tech 2 components ourselves). Thats right. Even without invention costs factored in just building the ship gives a 15 mill loss per ship.
With a decent success rate it would have been worth writing off the vultures as a loss and building nighthawks for profit, but I guess we are screwed there too.
If you want player industry to go places then it needs a complete inversion of the loot situation. Stuff dropped by NPCs should be WORSE than that made by players, not far better. After all why can some pirate faction somewhere create better missile launchers than the combined knowledge of the 4 empire's pod pilots.
At the very least players should be able to improve their BPOs and gradually work up to producing named items. Ideally we could create entirely new items of our own.
Some simple steps:
Allow ME research on BPCs or better yet get rid of the ridiculous negative ME on invention. We already have the invention costs that BPO holders don't so why hit us a second time? If we can stick that vulture BPC in a lab for a week or two and get it to ME1 or 2 then the whole cost equation changes.
Allow research on tech 1 BPOs that has a chance to take them up to being a bpo for a named item. Named items would need steadily more materials (and more expensive materials). The research could even have a chance to destroy the BPO - so do you risk your malkuth bpo to try and turn it into an arbalest one or not?
The first of those should be a trivial change - the second is bigger but is certainly nothing like as much work as invention and you already have the items graded by meta level to do the upgrade steps.
Blueprint Research Service Available See thread for details.
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Bado Sten
Minmatar Sten Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.16 09:40:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dr Aryandi
Allow research on tech 1 BPOs that has a chance to take them up to being a bpo for a named item. Named items would need steadily more materials (and more expensive materials). The research could even have a chance to destroy the BPO - so do you risk your malkuth bpo to try and turn it into an arbalest one or not?
The first of those should be a trivial change - the second is bigger but is certainly nothing like as much work as invention and you already have the items graded by meta level to do the upgrade steps.
This is a lovely idea! It would also make the research field more interesting as well
As for T1 production in general, we do a lot of it and do quite fine. But, you have to watch your sell orders and the market, and be prepared to adapt.
It seems there are trends to what people are making, so finding what they are not - but that still have demand, is key. For periods we've done great on WCS, then Invul fields, then cargo expanders etc.
Now we are set up in an NPC region in 0.0, and making the right kind of T1 items here can be very profitable as well. -- Do you need research services for your blueprints? We have available slots in Metropolis region. Look up my bio for info! |
Swifties
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Posted - 2007.08.16 11:19:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Bado Sten
Originally by: Dr Aryandi
Allow research on tech 1 BPOs that has a chance to take them up to being a bpo for a named item. Named items would need steadily more materials (and more expensive materials). The research could even have a chance to destroy the BPO - so do you risk your malkuth bpo to try and turn it into an arbalest one or not?
The first of those should be a trivial change - the second is bigger but is certainly nothing like as much work as invention and you already have the items graded by meta level to do the upgrade steps.
This is a lovely idea! It would also make the research field more interesting as well
As for T1 production in general, we do a lot of it and do quite fine. But, you have to watch your sell orders and the market, and be prepared to adapt.
It seems there are trends to what people are making, so finding what they are not - but that still have demand, is key. For periods we've done great on WCS, then Invul fields, then cargo expanders etc.
Now we are set up in an NPC region in 0.0, and making the right kind of T1 items here can be very profitable as well.
I think its a very bad idea to make it possible to invent named T1 items. For now, an arbalest heavy laucher does around 10-13 mil a piece. This is a nice extra income for people like me doing a lot of rats hunting. If invention on named T1 becomes reality, T1 named prices will drop to nothing, as seen on the T2 mods market today. Then we are gonna be back where we started, that is: lousy profits on T1 mods (including the named ones) and crappy profit margins on T2 mods. The fact is, there a too much people trying to make easy money doing manufacturing/invention. So, like said many times before me, selling T1 mods can be very rewarding, but pick your stations!! Make isk on the lazyness of your fellow EVE players, not by screwing yet another market, in this case, named T1 stuff.
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