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Morn Judith
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:36:00 -
[1]
It seems to me that ECM is now nearly obsolete. I used to be a pretty advance Caldari EW pilot before I took a break and scrapped my characters. I've been back for a while now, and recently trained Recons. But it seems to me in returning to PvP that no one uses ECMs anymore. The flavor of the day is now Remote Sensor Dampeners.
Why is this? I know there was a change made to ECM mods, what exactly was that? And did this change result in the abandonment of ECM mods, and the dedication of damps to PvP?
I'm asking this because if ECM is mostly useless now, or rather Damps are just better, then I'd rather not waste my time on training the relevant skills, and going through the pain of losing ships to figure out that they hardly work now.
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:38:00 -
[2]
yeah ecm recieved a hard nerf, infact they nerfed it too far. YOu now have to fit a low slot strength mod for your ecm. You can also only fit ecm on dedicated ships. The results of these changes mean you completely forgoe an armor tank to have effective ecm thats chance based. You would be better off with sensor damps.
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NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:39:00 -
[3]
ECM is not obsolete - it is however not the no-skill omnimodule of doom it once was. RSD's work great - especially in gangs and there's no real counter for it.
A skilled Rook or Falcon pilot IS a great asset.
Post count: 214515
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Old Flatface
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:40:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Old Flatface on 13/08/2007 18:44:21
I used to feel as you do, but no, it's not obsolete. In fact, it's used quite often in gangs (falcon/rook).
The nerf, which happened a while ago now, just keeps people from fitting ECM on every ship. Which in retrospect is a good thing, even though my ECM arb pwned all.
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:41:00 -
[5]
ecm is still fine when fitted on bonused ships, you also need to install one or two strength mods, but then it's quite nice. it's just not the module you'd fit on every free midslot in every ship anymore, that's the damper now.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:41:00 -
[6]
Quote: I used to feel as you do, but no, it's no obsolete. In fact, it's used quite often in gangs.
The nerf, which happened a while ago now, just keeps people from fitting ECM on every ship. Which in retrospect is a good thing, even though my ECM arb pwned all.
not quiete. Even on dedicated ships, you can't achieve the same jam strenght that you could prior to the nerf. YOuy also forgoe, tank or any damage mods just to make it effective, while RSD can fill their lows with whatever they want..... RSDS are much more effective at the moment.
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Old Flatface
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: I used to feel as you do, but no, it's no obsolete. In fact, it's used quite often in gangs.
The nerf, which happened a while ago now, just keeps people from fitting ECM on every ship. Which in retrospect is a good thing, even though my ECM arb pwned all.
not quiete. Even on dedicated ships, you can't achieve the same jam strenght that you could prior to the nerf. YOuy also forgoe, tank or any damage mods just to make it effective, while RSD can fill their lows with whatever they want..... RSDS are much more effective at the moment.
I think you missunderstood what I wrote m8.
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Morn Judith
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:47:00 -
[8]
Mother of God that was a lot of fast responses.
Ok, so it sounds like a dedicated Rook/Falcon pilot is still good. Thats good.
So, if ECMs were nerfed to no longer be fitted on every ship, why are Damps still able to be put on every ship? Does that make sense?
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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NoNah
Unseen University
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:48:00 -
[9]
Originally by: KD.Fluffy
Quote: I used to feel as you do, but no, it's no obsolete. In fact, it's used quite often in gangs.
The nerf, which happened a while ago now, just keeps people from fitting ECM on every ship. Which in retrospect is a good thing, even though my ECM arb pwned all.
not quiete. Even on dedicated ships, you can't achieve the same jam strenght that you could prior to the nerf. YOuy also forgoe, tank or any damage mods just to make it effective, while RSD can fill their lows with whatever they want..... RSDS are much more effective at the moment.
Yeah, and webs are alot more effective than scrams, Apples are better than oranges, and yellow beats the crap out of number 8.
Post count: 293626
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Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:52:00 -
[10]
A Rook with racial jammers is an amazing asset to have in small gang pvp.
Just keep range and warp out if someone locks you that you don't have a jammer ready for.
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slothe
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:53:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Wayward Hooligan A Rook with racial jammers is an amazing asset to have in small gang pvp.
Just keep range and warp out if someone locks you that you don't have a jammer ready for.
what he said
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Zoe Forias
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:58:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Morn Judith So, if ECMs were nerfed to no longer be fitted on every ship, why are Damps still able to be put on every ship? Does that make sense?
Because they are different types of module. One ECM fitted in a spare medslot used to be amazingly effective at short, medium and long range. One remote sensor damp in a spare medslot isn't going to be anywhere near as effective. It'll only significantly hurt a target at longrange.
There is still an ECM module which can fit in the "spare medslot" of any ship and be somewhat effective - that's the ECM burst which got boosted. 'course, that's only effective at short range, and has been limited so you can only fit one of them.
It's good to have that level of complexity. It shouldn't be that only EW ships use EW. The differing uses and limits of modules like tracking disruptors, RSDs and ECM bursts help to create varying setups.
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KD.Fluffy
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 18:58:00 -
[13]
Quote: A Rook with racial jammers is an amazing asset to have in small gang pvp.
Just keep range and warp out if someone locks you that you don't have a jammer ready for.
I would prefer an arazu that can warp scram and doesnt miss...... my .02
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ElCholo
Minmatar FarCry Inc Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Zoe Forias
Originally by: Morn Judith So, if ECMs were nerfed to no longer be fitted on every ship, why are Damps still able to be put on every ship? Does that make sense?
Because they are different types of module. One ECM fitted in a spare medslot used to be amazingly effective at short, medium and long range. One remote sensor damp in a spare medslot isn't going to be anywhere near as effective. It'll only significantly hurt a target at longrange.
There is still an ECM module which can fit in the "spare medslot" of any ship and be somewhat effective - that's the ECM burst which got boosted. 'course, that's only effective at short range, and has been limited so you can only fit one of them.
It's good to have that level of complexity. It shouldn't be that only EW ships use EW. The differing uses and limits of modules like tracking disruptors, RSDs and ECM bursts help to create varying setups.
Nah - they just havnt nerfed RSD yet, give em time - they cant nerf everything at once.
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Morn Judith
Caldari Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Wayward Hooligan A Rook with racial jammers is an amazing asset to have in small gang pvp.
Just keep range and warp out if someone locks you that you don't have a jammer ready for.
Thats the way I flew it before the nerf. Rooks and Falcons, and often Scorpions, were always the first to be targed. I got used to warping in and out often.
But I just re-noticed that the Rook only has 2 low slots. That kinda blows!
Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
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GreGh Rakrot
Naughty 40
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:15:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Morn Judith
So, if ECMs were nerfed to no longer be fitted on every ship, why are Damps still able to be put on every ship? Does that make sense?
hm if we take that even further then why are webs allowed on anything but huggin/rapier, why is scrambler allowed on anything but arazu/lachesis ... it would be silly ... i think damps are fine as they are ... dont take this as attack on you tho pls :) just tryign to point that ecm was pwning mod and damps arent really ... in big numbers yes but not like ecm was
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Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:22:00 -
[17]
RSD are the current FOTM. That doesn't mean other forms of EW are ineffective or broken.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:24:00 -
[18]
ECM is fairly well balanced now. People in general don't seem to like blanced things and instead go for what is overpowered, and that is RSDs atm (even if only when you fit at least two). And of course combining the two is really nasty. My current scorp setup features 4 ECM and 4 RSD. That alone says a lot about how powerful RSD are.
There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:24:00 -
[19]
Well maxed out Rook with T2 ECM, 2 T2 SDA and 2 Rigs will get a racial strength of 13.8 / multi strength of 9.2. Thats ok for most ships but other recons or ECCMed BS. The problem is, if you are not at 150km and you miss a cycle, you will loose against RSD, because you wont be able to lock again.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:45:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:41 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:04 Well maxed out Rook with T2 ECM, 2 T2 SDA and 2 Rigs will get a racial strength of 13.8 / multi strength of 9.2. Thats ok for most ships but other recons or ECCMed BS. The problem is, if you are not at 150km and you miss a cycle, you will loose against RSD, because you wont be able to lock again.
Add: just as a little prove: a maxed out Lachesis with 2 RSD + rigs can put down a maxed rook with gangbonus and 1 sensor boost (with an estimated locking range of 300km) to less that 27km locking range
Lordy knows I'm not the best person for this, but I'm almost 100% positive that it won't be happening at 150km. RSD's don't seem to "reach" that far.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 19:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:41 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:04 Well maxed out Rook with T2 ECM, 2 T2 SDA and 2 Rigs will get a racial strength of 13.8 / multi strength of 9.2. Thats ok for most ships but other recons or ECCMed BS. The problem is, if you are not at 150km and you miss a cycle, you will loose against RSD, because you wont be able to lock again.
Add: just as a little prove: a maxed out Lachesis with 2 RSD + rigs can put down a maxed rook with gangbonus and 1 sensor boost (with an estimated locking range of 300km) to less that 27km locking range
Lordy knows I'm not the best person for this, but I'm almost 100% positive that it won't be happening at 150km. RSD's don't seem to "reach" that far.
Liang
Thats why i said if you are NOT at 150km.. i meant if you are closer..
And i found that you can reach 15.4 ecm strength with a maxed Eos + Information warefare link in gang.
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Zoe Forias
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:12:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:41 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:04 Well maxed out Rook with T2 ECM, 2 T2 SDA and 2 Rigs will get a racial strength of 13.8 / multi strength of 9.2. Thats ok for most ships but other recons or ECCMed BS. The problem is, if you are not at 150km and you miss a cycle, you will loose against RSD, because you wont be able to lock again.
Add: just as a little prove: a maxed out Lachesis with 2 RSD + rigs can put down a maxed rook with gangbonus and 1 sensor boost (with an estimated locking range of 300km) to less that 27km locking range
What do you suggest as a solution?
At the moment one type of EW beats another type quite often at a certain range (between 30km and a 150km, I guess). That said, ECM is more universal, as it can break lock at any distance, whereas RSDs only reduce lockrange, and therefore are ineffective against shortrange setups, as well as midrange setups unless fitted on a specialised ship with bonuses.
That seems to be me to be okay balance. They're very different types of modules and one is better than the other in different situations. As has been pointed out, best results occur when you combine the two forms of EW. One damp and one racial ECM, coming from bonused, rigged EW boats will more often than not entirely disable an enemy ship.
But, outside of long range, a single bonused ECM is going to ruin my day faster than a single bonused RSD.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that things are a lot more complex than just "RSDs are better than ECM". Yep, maybe the balance could be improved, and I'd be interested as to how you'd do that, but just nerfing them so they aren't used anymore doesn't seem to me to be a good answer.
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Fenderson
Endgame. Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:15:00 -
[23]
ECM is still awesome, but only on specialized ships (falcon, rook, blackbird, scorpion) and you probably want to fit a SDA or two.
my understanding was that they cut the strength of ECM modules in half but gave dedicated ships a double strength bonus, so dedicated ECM ships should have been more or less unaffected by the nerf. the main point was to decrease the effectiveness of fitting 1 or 2 ECM mods on a non-specialized ship.
RSD's seems to be the flavor of the month because they still work well on non-specc'd ships, so alot more setups use them.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:22:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 13/08/2007 20:22:59
Originally by: Zoe Forias
Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:41 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 13/08/2007 19:35:04 Well maxed out Rook with T2 ECM, 2 T2 SDA and 2 Rigs will get a racial strength of 13.8 / multi strength of 9.2. Thats ok for most ships but other recons or ECCMed BS. The problem is, if you are not at 150km and you miss a cycle, you will loose against RSD, because you wont be able to lock again.
Add: just as a little prove: a maxed out Lachesis with 2 RSD + rigs can put down a maxed rook with gangbonus and 1 sensor boost (with an estimated locking range of 300km) to less that 27km locking range
What do you suggest as a solution?
At the moment one type of EW beats another type quite often at a certain range (between 30km and a 150km, I guess). That said, ECM is more universal, as it can break lock at any distance, whereas RSDs only reduce lockrange, and therefore are ineffective against shortrange setups, as well as midrange setups unless fitted on a specialised ship with bonuses.
That seems to be me to be okay balance. They're very different types of modules and one is better than the other in different situations. As has been pointed out, best results occur when you combine the two forms of EW. One damp and one racial ECM, coming from bonused, rigged EW boats will more often than not entirely disable an enemy ship.
But, outside of long range, a single bonused ECM is going to ruin my day faster than a single bonused RSD.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that things are a lot more complex than just "RSDs are better than ECM". Yep, maybe the balance could be improved, and I'd be interested as to how you'd do that, but just nerfing them so they aren't used anymore doesn't seem to me to be a good answer.
I think that range is closer to between 30 and 90km. Maybe a bit less, because I think you're well into falloff for damps at 90km IIRC.
Note: I say this because I had a 3 damp double damp rigged bonused ship get locked and put into structure at 85km by Nighthawk (that I was "damping").
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Zoe Forias
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:26:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Liang Nuren I think that range is closer to between 30 and 90km. Maybe a bit less, because I think you're well into falloff for damps at 90km IIRC.
Note: I say this because I had a 3 damp double damp rigged bonused ship get locked and put into structure at 85km by Nighthawk (that I was "damping").
Cheers. Thanks for correcting me.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:27:00 -
[26]
RSD need the same nerf as ECM got imo. Make it barely worth fitting on a non dedicated ship (like ecms are) and let them be the same at dedicated ships.
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Benn Helmsman
Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:29:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think that range is closer to between 30 and 90km. Maybe a bit less, because I think you're well into falloff for damps at 90km IIRC.
Note: I say this because I had a 3 damp double damp rigged bonused ship get locked and put into structure at 85km by Nighthawk (that I was "damping").
Liang
45km + 90 km fallof -> 50% chance to hit at 135km
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:31:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Zoe Forias
Originally by: Liang Nuren I think that range is closer to between 30 and 90km. Maybe a bit less, because I think you're well into falloff for damps at 90km IIRC.
Note: I say this because I had a 3 damp double damp rigged bonused ship get locked and put into structure at 85km by Nighthawk (that I was "damping").
Cheers. Thanks for correcting me.
NP. I think you're right though... its fairly balanced. And Damps are 100% useless up close. I ganked an Arazu in my Myrmidon that started 20km off when I got the first lock (I surprised him on a gate).
He didn't have enough time to align + warp out before I was on top of him with web/scram. So they're not *THAT* uber.
I think the main problem comes from the fact that people want to fit some ewar on their ships - and nothing ****es someone off like just sitting there waiting to die.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:33:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Benn Helmsman
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I think that range is closer to between 30 and 90km. Maybe a bit less, because I think you're well into falloff for damps at 90km IIRC.
Note: I say this because I had a 3 damp double damp rigged bonused ship get locked and put into structure at 85km by Nighthawk (that I was "damping").
Liang
45km + 90 km fallof -> 50% chance to hit at 135km
And a 50% miss chance. I'd say at 130km, the Arazu is gonna be permajammed.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.13 20:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Aramendel A rook will have around the same chance to jam the arazu. With the right racial - the arazu does not need the correct version of damps. It will have the advantage there.
I don't know any competent ECM pilot that flies without at least one Gallente racial jammer. The ships are too prevalent in PVP to ignore.
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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