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RyGy
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Posted - 2007.08.15 05:01:00 -
[1]
Ive always thought the concept of a weapon built into the structure of a ship to be interesting (I got into space sci fi with Homeworld, Ion Frigs ftw) and was wondering if there was some way to implement them in EVE. Heres a few ideas.
A new type of hardpoint called a "Superstructure Hardpoint" that would allow new, capital-sized weapons to be fitted. These hardpoints would be found on a new set of tier4 cruisers each with only a single high slot. Basiacally, each race gets a new cruiser specifically designed to mount a massive gun that essentially takes up the majority of the ships hull. These would do damage on par with a capital weapon (or possibly some level between large and capitol), but the catch is, they arent turreted. The entire body of the ship has to be moved to aim, meaning it is only really effective against large, slow moving ships at moderate to long ranges.
These ships would be cruisers in every other sense - same price range (though the weapons and ammo would probably be a bit more expensive), same armor, same speed. They would be very vulnerable to and same ship class size or smaller would eat them up. But these, in turn, would be the bane of every capitol ship out there. Faster smaller ships such as cruisers and frigates would be needed to take them out.
This would give a cheaper, less skill intensive, method for bringing heavy firepower at the cost of higher manpower and increased vulnerability to smaller ships.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.15 05:56:00 -
[2]
Pretty much a giant flying gun?
Not a bad idea, bit of a Goonswarm dream come true though. But I like it, it has a (presently unfilled) role, it has a definite drawback (normal ships eat it alive), and it makes a cheap, effective cap ship killer on strafing runs. However, if that capital has a good support fleet, the sniper BS and anti-support cruisers tear it a new one. Remains vulnerable to Carrier's fighters and drones, but that's probably a good thing.
Might become the new POS-basher of choice, which is not what we want though. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Teldar Orion
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Posted - 2007.08.16 01:13:00 -
[3]
The poor Amarr version, dumping all of its cap into 1 shot.
Anywho, I like this idea, but only if they have sub-par slots for a cruiser. They would be tech 2 I assume? Downsides - the perfect sniper ship. Few would want to use BS for fear of being insta-poped. And miners, oh god man, think of the miners! "Eat this Mr barge!"
They would make POS attack and defence much more.. hectic, thats for sure. Imagine several Dreds attacking a bubble, while several defenders in these cruisers spit dread-sized ammo right back at em :) lower cost, cheaper to build. Hmm.
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RyGy
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Posted - 2007.08.16 03:00:00 -
[4]
Edited by: RyGy on 16/08/2007 02:59:55 The original concept is for tech1 cruisers that require level 4 racial cruisers skills. While the ships themselves wouldn't be too hard to train for, the weapons would still require some high level skills. Another thing to consider is the size of ammo. While obviously the Amarr wouldn't have to worry about ammo, the other weapons would have essentially a 1 shot capacity, with their reload time determining their refire rate. And of course, significant cap use for the giant laser beam.
Maybe if I see a few more positive/constructive responses, I'll try to come up with some more detailed info on the ships for each race as well as the weapons, though if someone else wants to be my guest. As of right now this is just a general concept.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.16 06:32:00 -
[5]
What you are suggestin is the concept of "spinal weapons", weapons integralm to a ship and build around the main axis of the ship (or to better put it the whole ship is build around the weapon ). It is widely used in SF novels and tabletop games.
It is very interesting and would be nice to integrate it in EVE. Today the only ships with something similar are the Domsday Devices of the titans, but those are AOE weapons with 360¦ coverage.
In SF the typical spinal weapons are in 2 models: single target very powerful weapon with a medium activation time and area effect weapon with a limited frontal firing arc (between 15¦ and 45¦) high damage and long activation time.
Both models have usually a very limited to inexistant tracking (firing only forward from the ship), range is very variable.
To introduce the first model (single target) in EVE seem hard, as it will require manual aiming.
The second, forward firing AOE weapon, seem more interesting.
To make it similar to what is depicted in the SF novels and to avoid (as someone pointed) the problem of depleting all the cap of the ship in a single shot, the best option seem to make it use fuel. To activate it you power up the weapon, that start consuming power and loading a separate capacitor. When it is ready (at least 10 second, better more) the capacitor change color and you have a limited period to fire the weapon (10-20 seconds). If you keep the charge for longer period your ship start getting damage (heat seem a perfect solution here).
While range/damage can be a issue the best solution seem something with a range equivalent to the unmodified range of a long range gun for a ship of that class, for example for a cruiser 24 km, the base range of a 250 mm rail, with an fall off of the same lenght. If the weapon as a wide angle (45¦) the range should be shorter and falloff more pronunced.
After firing the weapon will require a cool down period.
An additional feature can be the loss of all the target lock in the area of effect (powerful electromagnetic wave), both from withing the area to the targets out of the area and from outside the area to the targets in it. That will give surviving targets a chance to escape/react.
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari Free Traders
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Posted - 2007.08.16 07:12:00 -
[6]
that would need new ship models.
Imagine how you would integrate a spinal weapon into the Moa or Blackbird. However Gallente ships would be full of it ...
Originally by: JP Beauregard The experience with Exodus playtesting has scarred me for life. Those were bug-reports, not feature requests, you numbskulls....
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2007.08.16 07:33:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 16/08/2007 07:34:24 I like the idea, but the implementation is easier than you think. You dont have to make a "superstructure hardpoint". You can just make cruisers (or other ships) with low amount of slots and one hi slots for the weapon, practically zero cargo hold, slow speed, give this ship a reduction bonus on pgrid use of capital weapons (and cap reduction bonus for amarr ones).
Quote: The entire body of the ship has to be moved to aim, meaning it is only really effective against large, slow moving ships at moderate to long ranges.
I think that isnt necessary because of the sig resolution and tracking of this weapons although I would not make a capital missile carrying one for the caldari but hybrid instead.
with this new cruisers or whatever class ships, taking dedicated tracking disruptors/target painters ships would make much more sense then.
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joshmorris
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Posted - 2007.08.16 10:54:00 -
[8]
If its integrated you wouldn't need a high slot for the weapon ?? I like this idea but imo you should make the cruiser very slow and not very maneuverable. Also with very few structure hit points and only 1 or 2 low and medium slots. For the manual aiming you could align then shoot or just press shoot on your target and it aligns you automatically (like warping but it shoots instead of warps) And i think it should be skill intensive with a cost of around 40 mill mineral price. (You wouldn't spam them anywhere with that price you would make sure you have support, maybe bring a really good role for the logistics to help with)
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.16 10:58:00 -
[9]
capital guns are more or less useless unless you're in siege mode --------- im ghey xD |
Washell Olivaw
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Posted - 2007.08.16 11:30:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Baxalusx capital guns are more or less useless unless you're in siege mode
Ok, so far:
Align for warp can be used as targeting mechanic. Bonusses on the ship can make a single cap gun *****ble. Would need new models, probably of the guns too. The sig resolution of the gun makes it fairly useless for smaller targets. And to the above, that can be fixed with a bonus on the ship, perhaps making the gun less powerful then a dread in siege mode.
I like it.
Quote: Everybody has a photographic memory, some people just don't have film.
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Ferreus Malukar
The X-Trading Company
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Posted - 2007.08.16 11:54:00 -
[11]
Wow I sure love this Idea! (Homeworld fan )
If those cruisers then need a siege mode to fire, so be it. --- This is my main. There are many like it but this one is mine. I must master it as I must master my life. Without me, my main is useless. Without my main I am useless. |
Triana
Gallente MMK Design and Logistic
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Posted - 2007.08.16 13:45:00 -
[12]
Spinal mount ? so u can take a weapon one or two size above what u can normally use on that class of ships and make it a fixed design running whole length of the ship? i kinda like the idea to be honest -- War is like any other bad relationship. Of course you want out, but at what price? And perhaps more importantly, once you get out, will you be any better off? |
Triana
Gallente MMK Design and Logistic
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Posted - 2007.08.16 13:47:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka that would need new ship models.
Imagine how you would integrate a spinal weapon into the Moa or Blackbird. However Gallente ships would be full of it ...
Spinal mount thorax .....instant love -- War is like any other bad relationship. Of course you want out, but at what price? And perhaps more importantly, once you get out, will you be any better off? |
Neuromandis
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Posted - 2007.08.16 15:56:00 -
[14]
This is a very very interesting proposition, and it sounds easy enough to implement, as long as someone actually makes the ships, that is. I can see: * A definite role, that is unfullfilled today (capship-killers) * Drawbacks (being the most vulnerable mofo evah to conventional ships) * Balancing factors (a single highslot for a gun means no cloaking nonsense and the like, this one is a "heavy bomber" through and through) * Nothing gamebreaking to begin with.
I like it immensely. GJ.
I definately think that the firepower of a single capital gun is what is needed.
Oh, and you don't actually have to do anything fancy to say it's not turreted - just give it a freakishly low tracking speed, and screw the graphics.
Again, nice idea. --- If someone else from my Corporation or Alliance agrees with me, he will say so. Assume nobody does :) --- WTB: Scorpion wing (left)
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.16 17:20:00 -
[15]
I like it a lot. A new model or at least a modified model wouldn't be THAT bad since the new engine is coming out soon anyway. You wouldn't need too much stuff either. A new ship and a single new module- an inverter or something.
Ship has: fitting bonus for cap weapon tracking/explosion velocity/radius penalty very low sig resolution low speed and maneuvering Some sort of fueled device (probably using stront) to convert cruiser power to prime the cap weapon...
Cheap, usable, not gamebreaking at all... and FUN! holy crap.
I mean, a post like this, I feel like I should say something that tears the idea to shreds but I can't think of anything. it's a good solid idea and it would look cool.
And as a homeworld nerd myself, I envision recruiting noobs, cramming them into as many of these things as I can muster and having them all fire on a dread or POS at the same time... Remember the way that looked when you attacked Higara and had like 23927423 captured ion frigates attacking the heavy cruisers? HELL YES! ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
RyGy
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Posted - 2007.08.16 21:01:00 -
[16]
Updated the name to be a little more descriptive.
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Rei Sara
Duty.
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Posted - 2007.08.16 22:28:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Rei Sara on 16/08/2007 22:30:31 Great idea!
The trouble with it would be working out the manual-alignment targeting.
I know the "add a module that temporarily changes ship attributes" bit is getting used a lot these days, but that would probably be a good alternative for this situation.
My idea (Kinda stolen from Yamichi Wiggin above, but tweaked a bit):
- Give the ships an inherent penalty to weapon accuracy (maybe have the penalty reduced slightly per level of skill with the ship's class) that makes the capital weapons nearly useless against anything moving at all.
- Implement a fuel-free siege-mode-like module that temporarily (20-30 second cycles) immobilizes the vessel but improves weapon tracking to effective levels and reduces weapon capacitor usage to something a cruiser can manage. This module could also cut your max number of targets to 1, and possibly force your ship to align to that one target.
This would partly require the previously mentioned idea of having the Caldari version use a hybrid turret rather than citadels to keep it balanced.
Edit: Made a clarification.
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Jurgen Cartis
Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:23:00 -
[18]
Gotta have the big gun that effectively takes up the whole ship and aligns directly to the target to make it look cool. And if the recoil knocks it back 20km, all the better. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales |
Strife Phoenix
Acerbus Vindictum
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Posted - 2007.08.17 09:53:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are suggestin is the concept of "spinal weapons", weapons integralm to a ship and build around the main axis of the ship (or to better put it the whole ship is build around the weapon ). It is widely used in SF novels and tabletop games.
In present days: The A10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog / Tank Killer)
ACERBUS-VINDICTUM - Revelare Pecunia! |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.17 13:52:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Strife Phoenix
Originally by: Venkul Mul What you are suggestin is the concept of "spinal weapons", weapons integralm to a ship and build around the main axis of the ship (or to better put it the whole ship is build around the weapon ). It is widely used in SF novels and tabletop games.
In present days: The A10 Thunderbolt II (Warthog / Tank Killer)
Right, or all of the different airplanes/ships build around a single weapon plus some small secondary. (the thunderbolt has too much "other" weapons to be the best example)
The best example I think is the B 25G and H B25 variants with a 75 mm (2.95 inch) gun in a airplane.
My idea is that the weapon should be a part of the ship, not an added module.
For a cruiser class the damage output should be on par with that of a XL gun as an alpha strike, with long cool down/recharge period (I still think that a special fuel to load it with a charge separated from the main capacitor is a good idea).
To balance the high otput weapons, all the other high mounts of the ship will accept only modules with 1 size less than that of the ship (so only small weapons in a cruiser).
Seein as the weapon will be normally mounted along the main axis of the ship (mmmh, maybe then Caldari can't use them ) and use most of the space there, the ship will not have a drone bay and a small cargohold.
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.17 15:38:00 -
[21]
Caldari ships can use them... We'd just have to fly 30 degrees away from our target so the weird axis coming out of one of the wingtips is pointed at the ship. Also- love the idea of huge recoil :-) Wouldn't make science sense for the lasers though. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Byron Hunter
Gallente Multiverse Corporation The Core Collective
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Posted - 2007.08.17 17:11:00 -
[22]
I hope that CCP likes this idea. Smaller corps could fight the bigger alliences and do some major damage.
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Malcanis
High4Life Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.17 17:29:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Yamichi Wiggin Caldari ships can use them... We'd just have to fly 30 degrees away from our target so the weird axis coming out of one of the wingtips is pointed at the ship. Also- love the idea of huge recoil :-) Wouldn't make science sense for the lasers though.
Maybe the laser drains so much power the engines falter for a few moments?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.17 17:31:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Malcanis
Maybe the laser drains so much power the engines falter for a few moments?
Ohhhh dig it! Huge mass+no engines for 30 seconds = start over. I like that idea a lot! ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Turgun
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Posted - 2007.08.17 17:58:00 -
[25]
i like this idea, reckon it should be for bc's though, i'd like the idea of having a bc type manticore, would make sense to tbh . I think it should work the same as manticores cruise bonus aswell, leave the bc a couple of high slots to mess about with but dont overpower the ships powergrid,cpu and bonuses.
Drake torpedo boat ftw!!!
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.17 18:13:00 -
[26]
yeah- after some thought I'm thinking that they need to be BC level cost. It's easy to get a bunch of noobs into cruisers, spend 10 mil on a ship and swarm a dread fleet. You put out half a bil in ships and take out 15 bil. If the ships cost more like 40-60 mil and are T1 tanks, it should be balanced. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
Randolf Sightblinder
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2007.08.17 19:56:00 -
[27]
Really, I think they should be setup so that they can take out dreads (maybe damage a pos but not as well as a dread.
But why would you need to make them cost a lot, these things would die FAST to a conventional cruiser or BC or even a BS, they, like the idea of a torpedo bomber would force a mixed fleet something thats all dreads would go down to a group of these, something that has support would chew up a gang of just these quick.
Currently the counter to dreads is either dreads or LOTS of BS class ships. These would be interesting, but would need balanced well, which judging by the stealth bomber is going to be a pain.
Randolf
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Ryn Gyviera
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Posted - 2007.08.17 21:33:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Ryn Gyviera on 17/08/2007 21:34:37 Heh, posted with a newbie alt :P
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RyGy
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Posted - 2007.08.17 21:34:00 -
[29]
Well the original idea was for the ships by themselves to be the same as a cruiser, however, the weapon would have to be purchased separately, thus the total cost of an effective capship killer would be on par with a battlecruiser. That would also mean that they aren't insurable for the full cost of the ship plus weapon, so it prevents people from just using a squad of these to gank ships in one shot. It forces them to cover their vulnerability and use them intelligently, rather than completely repalcing a dreadnaught fleet with replacable cruisers.
Of course, i didn't actually think about that when i made the original post, but it sounds good to me :P
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Yamichi Wiggin
Caldari Rising Knights SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.17 21:37:00 -
[30]
I suppose the cost isn't too important. if we basically make a cruiser that mounts capital weapons and has a tracking penalty, then only people able to use capital weapons can fly them. So you won't be able to fast-track noobs into the ships. And if somebody has large hybrid V and all the support skills for it, they probably have other skills that could be more useful. The "cost" then is the fact that you just took your Rokh out of combat in favor of a one-trick pony... so I guess I'm ok with a 5-6M cost (mid level cruiser ish?) for the ship and just mount a capital weapon mount. ------ Pain is weakness leaving the body.
There is no love in fear |
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