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Eltigre
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Posted - 2004.02.04 17:18:00 -
[1]
Ok, I am not an Economics guru or anything like this and I am enjoying the way the EVE market is setup cuz I can make money and all but... there is something seriously wrong with a marketplace in which the use of expensive skills such as Refining yields refined minerals that have a lower value than the raw ore. I mean, it is far easier for me anyway to mine ores for those willing to pay premium prices with NO RISK and then to take those millions of isk earned to the market and look for the cheapest refined ore I can find within close distance from my factories and I end up every single time being able to get the refined ores I need without the use of my own refinery skills and I end up with more money in my pocket at the end of the day. Maybe everybody is going about this the wrong way but as long as people are more willing to pay more for raw ore which has a BIG supply than for refined minerals which is in lesser supply it will always be possible to make money and get the minerals required to make things simply by selling raw ores then buying refined minerals.
Shouldn't there be some kind of additional value placed on the refinery process ? In most other MMORPG's I have played the refined minerals would always cost more than the raw ores because the skills required to refine took time to get and only those players who had committed the time to get those refinery skills would be able to refine higher-level ores. It seems in EVE however there is no value placed on the ability to refine ores other than the value better skills may have to those who are doing the refining. Those who mine ores and also manufacture items can always mine their way to lower prices by committing more time to the mining process regardless of the waste factor of the refining process. The only class of people who will care about having low waste factors during refining are those who sell refined ores on the market and then they could always make more had they hauled their raw ores to those willing to pay more for the raw ores. In the end I am making money off the laziest people in EVE who either can't haul their ore to those willing to pay premium prices or have good enough refinery skills that makes them feel like their refined minerals are worth more than the raw ores.
This is simply my own sense of EVE's way of dealing with the mining/refining processes not making economic sense to me... I do enjoy making money off the lazy people however...
Hey, can we get more lazy people in EVE so the lowest prices for refined minerals can go down some more ? - lol
SWEET routinely sells BPC's in Sing Laison and Essence Regions. |
Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.04 17:30:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Cao Cao on 04/02/2004 19:54:25 What you are failing to note is that these factors are all player-driven. It isn't a broken "mechanic" in the game. The only way a mineral can be worth less than the unrefined ore is if:
(a) the individual selling the mineral's refining skills are not as high as the individual buying the raw ore; or
(b) there is a temporal or spatial price flux affecting the supply and/or demand of the refined mineral.
Either way, it is completely player-driven. If someone has high refining skills, it is completely within the game mechanics and is in fact good business practice for them to buy raw ore off the people who have low refining skills. That is what you call a "win-win" situation: the seller gets a higher price for the end-product (the mineral) than what he could produce (read: refine) himself, and the buyer makes a profit by producing a higher yield, and thus more value, out of the raw ore because of his higher skill.
No problem here.
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dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.04 17:43:00 -
[3]
This is perfectly fine in my opinion (and I do have studied some economics).
Quote:
In the end I am making money off the laziest people in EVE who either can't haul their ore to those willing to pay premium prices or have good enough refinery skills that makes them feel like their refined minerals are worth more than the raw ores.
Just the way it should be.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Cherok
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Posted - 2004.02.04 18:36:00 -
[4]
If you've studied economics, then you should know that people make lots of money off lazy people every day!
Too lazy to cut your grass? Pay someone to do it. Too lazy to make your own coffee? Hire someone to do it. Too lazy to clean your own house? Hire someone to do it. Too lazy to mine for your ores? Pay someone to do it.
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Eltigre
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Posted - 2004.02.04 23:32:00 -
[5]
Quote: This is perfectly fine in my opinion (and I do have studied some economics).
Quote:
In the end I am making money off the laziest people in EVE who either can't haul their ore to those willing to pay premium prices or have good enough refinery skills that makes them feel like their refined minerals are worth more than the raw ores.
Just the way it should be.
Maybe you should take some English courses next time... - lol ! (and I do have studied some economics)
SWEET routinely sells BPC's in Sing Laison and Essence Regions. |
Trevedian
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Posted - 2004.02.05 01:49:00 -
[6]
Keep in mind that English is a second language(Dalman speaks 12 other languages in fact :P) for many EVE players... So STFU and stop criticizing ppls grammar and take issue w/ the content of their message.
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Riddari
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Posted - 2004.02.05 01:56:00 -
[7]
Quote: Keep in mind that English is a second language
and even 3rd, 4th or 5th etc
¼©¼ a history |
dalman
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Posted - 2004.02.05 03:09:00 -
[8]
Quote: Keep in mind that English is a second language(Dalman speaks 12 other languages in fact :P) for many EVE players... So STFU and stop criticizing ppls grammar and take issue w/ the content of their message.
ROFL.
M.I.A. since 2004-07-30 |
Rawne Karrde
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Posted - 2004.02.05 05:04:00 -
[9]
I want to hear what the poster of this thread says when he sees people selling ships for less than what one would get for simply selling the minerals used to make it... thats eve... sheep mere sheep...
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Jeffor
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Posted - 2004.02.05 09:18:00 -
[10]
I started taking some economy classes last semseter and since it's only my minor I'm not the best one to write about this so I wish a major in economy would contact me but to put it short( I intend to write a longer post on it, with recomended litterature for the devs to read) When Helmar said he dont mind if we use trit as currency he showed that he has litle or no understanding of basic economc principles or the functions of a modernn market. I remember reading some of the old old dev chats where they promised stock markets and hostile takeovers.
But the way the market functions now it's easier to use byom deals and barter than use isk for many people. Which instead of creating increased GDP for the eve economy only creates inflation.
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Li ShangYin
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Posted - 2004.02.05 09:26:00 -
[11]
The norwegian loverboy has a point, however trit as a currency is still not really the case, and people do trade and use ISK, I think the coming changes in Shiva while not having any specifics so far should move the game markets another step towards that first vision of what the EVE market should be. How and when that happens is down to the devs of course. =)
___________________________________ A spring day at the edge of the world. On the edge of the world once more the day slants. The oriole cries, as though it were its own tears Which damp even the topmost blossoms on the tree.
-- Li Shang-yin, Exile, ninth century A.D. |
Jeffor
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Posted - 2004.02.05 10:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Jeffor on 05/02/2004 10:09:45 Who are you calling loverboy ya russian comunist you... Oh sorry finlandish person (I keep forgetting you won that litle skirmish against the russians)
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Agan Rafa
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Posted - 2004.02.05 11:08:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Agan Rafa on 05/02/2004 11:11:21 As someone who does have a bit of an idea on economics (although my background is more financial), I think I can safely say you're all missing the point a little here. The lead-DEV was absolutley right when he said Trit is the base currency of this economy, because it is - full stop. Trit is the common denominator in all features and facets of this game, be it manufacturing, mining or whatever, and thats the main reason why it costs 1 ISK. Think of it in terms of the big mac index, the easiest way to determine what your ISK is actually worth is to see how much trit you can buy with it. Think of it in terms of a gold standard or dollar standard - this market has a trit standard. Inflationary pressure would exist when the amount of trit you can buy for each ISK becomes less and less - your fictional currency has less real value. Equally so, deflation exists when prices of manufactured or refined goods move down, and the value of the currency moves up or sideways. In other words a market situation where goods are sold at less than standardised cost (trit based) would be a deflationary scenario. As it stands, this market has two problems: 1) the liquidity problem. Too much ISK is available at the current time in this world, and deflation has hit the economy. Prices are too low against 'salaries', everyone can buy everything and there is little 'currency burn'. This can be defined as deflation - selling under cost to compete is mainly responsible for this. In real term the 'value' of the currency has hardly changed. CCP is quite obviously no greenspan. 2) The mineral problem. Seen logically, manufacturing and refining should be done in the cheapest way possible, which clearly goes against the logic of having manufacturing or refining in systems that have little to no access to minerals or ores. To account for this, reprocessing should be cheaper (less waste?) in outlying (ie ore access) systems, and much more expensive in core worlds (where mining is not so pervasive). Minerals on the other hand are most expensive where demand is highest - as in where industry is, which in turn is dependent on the availability of workforce, etc. The added value thus created is an incentive to mine, short haul to reprocess, then long haul minerals to industry one way, and finally long haul finished goods the other - thus creating an added value economy and making a clear distinction between raw and finished goods. This, in answer to your question, is the main failure of the economy, its inability to specialise regionally, racially or otherwise (one of Ricardo's main principles for instance is comparative advantage - some regions are better suited to certain things than others), thus undermining an otherwise healthy economy. The cargo capacities needed for ore and minerals and finished goods are a clear indication of this concept: ores are bulky and best not transported over long distances, minerals are easier to transport, and (at least theoretically) the resulting finished goods are the easiest to transport on a relative basis: 10 ore -> 20 mineral -> 30 finsihed goods would be a typical transport cycle. So, your observation is in some ways correct, the refining principle is slightly faulty, and needs to be addressed most notably by moving production inwards, and thus prices upwards. Thereby creating an inflationary cycle which should go some way towards correcting the deflationary situation we currently have.
Carebear extraordinaire |
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