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Author |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
428
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Posted - 2012.01.15 22:15:00 -
[1] - Quote
Please add something to the description of battleships or add requirements to fly them, such as medium turret type V.
I have seen so many newbies getting ganked in their badly fit battleships then rage quitting it isn't even funny. It is just too easy for them to get into them with minimal skills and they spend too much ISK on them for their level.
As it stands this is - bad for players because there are less for us to play with. - bad for CCP because they are losing subscribers over such a small possible change. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Goose99
673
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Posted - 2012.01.15 22:16:00 -
[2] - Quote
Make BS harder to gank instead. |
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Bellum Esca
80
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Posted - 2012.01.15 22:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
If they didn't quit then they would just quit slightly later on, muppets are muppets regardless. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
429
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Posted - 2012.01.15 23:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:If they didn't quit then they would just quit slightly later on, muppets are muppets regardless.
Further on they don't have stars in their eyes and aren't so full of dreams. At the point I am talking about, they are investing all they have done, all they hope and all their ISK into one egg basket. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
46
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Posted - 2012.01.15 23:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Goose99 wrote:Make BS harder to gank instead. 1) Make BS harder to bank by buffing BS. 2) Gankers start using more battleships.
EDIT: Forgot to say I support this post :D the number of times I see horrific fits with full meta4 or deadspace items is horrendous. Losing those things must seriously make some new players want to rage quit. Keep them in battlecruisers etc. until they're ready, it'll cost them less and they'll perform better in them with low SP. |
Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 11:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
I believe tier 3 BCs are just about the right compromise.
I have been avoiding Battleships ever since I started playing eve less than a year ago, because of the price tag, the skill requirements and the risk of losing them.
Recently, I bought a Talos and fitted it for ratting purposes, and I think it is quite instructive about how to handle large guns, while still allowing some safety thanks to the speed and agility of the ship. This first approach to the bigger guns has changed my mind about BSs, and I now plan on skilling for and buying a Megathron.
The pricetag is roughly the same as for tier 1 BSs, true, but you can try them out with only large gun skills added to your BC skills, which is less frustrating of a skillplan. |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
77
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Posted - 2012.01.16 11:50:00 -
[7] - Quote
There are a lot of game mechanics (missions and other PVE specifically) that actually do tell newbies to go up in ship class as fast as they can.
How about we just reform that? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
430
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:03:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:... that actually do tell newbies to go up in ship class as fast as they can. ...
Never noticed that myself but maybe it depends on the missions, which I don't do many of as it is.
As for Tier 3 battle cruisers, I think they will and should have a nerf to tracking, tracking enhancers, tracking computers and webs. Besides which, Tier 1 and 2 battle cruisers can do L4 missions and they have more active tank. Tier 3 also doesn't stop players skipping battle cruisers to go straight for the battle ships. Cruiser III I think is the requirement?
Should be Cruiser IV, Battle Cruiser IV and Medium turrets V Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
77
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Quote:Never noticed that myself but maybe it depends on the missions, which I don't do many of as it is.
In order to make any real amount of money in missions you need to run level 4s...which are best done in battleships. |
Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:[quote=Kahega Amielden]
Should be Cruiser IV, Battle Cruiser IV and Medium turrets V
Medium turrets V is an awfully long skill for a new player. Plus it doesn't help the noob flying his BS in any way.
How about the core competency certificates ? Have the standard version be a prereq for battleships sounds like a more reasonable solution. It's even longer than Medium Turrets V, that's true, but at least it helps the noob with balancing his skillplan. |
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Jenshae Chiroptera
430
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Posted - 2012.01.16 13:42:00 -
[11] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:... In order to make any real amount of money in missions you need to run level 4s...which are best done in battleships. ... groups with T2 fits and a dedicated salvager.
Iris Bravemount wrote:... Medium turrets V is an awfully long skill for a new player. Plus it doesn't help the noob flying his BS in any way. ...
The Medium V skills make for a really good battle cruiser and have a lot of supporting skills that will de-n00b the guns on a battleship somewhat.
Certificates are odd but possible I guess. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 14:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote: The Medium V skills make for a really good battle cruiser and have a lot of supporting skills that will de-n00b the guns on a battleship somewhat.
Certificates are odd but possible I guess.
Medium V only leads to tech 2 skills. How good that is for BC pilots isn't what matters here IMHO. What matters is that noobs don't fly BSs without the appropriate set of skills, so core competency standard comes in handy. While we are at it, core competency basic could be a prereq for BCs.
Noobs don't need help to understand that you need your weapons skill, but they need it to understand the importance of support skills. And I speak of experience here. I was sitting in a Myrmidon before I even realized the potential of my Vexor and then I wondered why my BC was so weak. It's only after extensive explanations from online tutorials and corp mates that I understood how things work. |
Nestara Aldent
EVE University Ivy League
29
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Posted - 2012.01.16 14:59:00 -
[13] - Quote
Prerequisites are fine, and upping them isn't the way to prevent people from doing stupid, silly things. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
431
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
I was trying to be general and it would only be level 1 of the specialisations but they can make a case function for it:
MgunsT2 = boolean
Set MgunsT2 = Case MgunsT2() when Autocannons Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Artillery Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Blasters Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Railguns Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Beams Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true // et cetera copy paste and edit End;
IF MgunsT2 = TRUE AND Cruisers IV = TRUE AND Battle cruisers IV = TRUE THEN Battleships = TRUE Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:Prerequisites are fine, and upping them isn't the way to prevent people from doing stupid, silly things.
That's true, but they can still be a good guideline. If you force people to up their support skills before even can get into BSs, they will realize all by themselves how much they help them. |
Nestara Aldent
EVE University Ivy League
29
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:07:00 -
[16] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:I was trying to be general and it would only be level 1 of the specialisations but they can make a case function for it:
MgunsT2 = boolean
Set MgunsT2 = Case MgunsT2() when Autocannons Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Artillery Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Blasters Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Railguns Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true when Beams Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true // et cetera copy paste and edit End;
IF MgunsT2 = TRUE AND Cruisers IV = TRUE AND Battle cruisers IV = TRUE THEN Battleships = TRUE
Why T2 medium guns should be a prerequisite for a battleship? Do you plan to put undersized guns on it? And why BC to IV should be a prerequisite, as well? That adds unrelated BC training to a BS.
You can't see how much your proposal DON'T make sense? For example here in E-UNI we advise training to a BC and BS to be a priority because newbie will be able to join an incursion fleet and his ISK problems will be gone. Do you realize your proposal wont help that but hinder it? |
Jenshae Chiroptera
431
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:...Why T2 medium guns should be a prerequisite for a battleship? Why BC to IV should be a prerequisite, as well? ...
Medium guns T2 + BC IV is a good stepping stone before training a battleship and it gives me a good idea of what a battle cruiser can do. Requirements for T2 mediums are the same support skills that Large guns need; ergo T1 Large would at least have support skills.
I am trying to look at some other skills that the support gunnery and missile ones can be put under.
Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Medium guns T2 + BC IV is a good stepping stone before training a battleship and it gives me a good idea of what a battle cruiser can do. Requirements for T2 mediums are the same support skills that Large guns need; ergo T1 Large would at least have support skills.
I am trying to look at some other skills that the support gunnery and missile ones can be put under.
The problem is that what you propose wouldn't prevent our dear noob from training straight to Med Weapon Spec 1, without any support skills (not even gunnery support skills) and then jump into his BS. It wouldn't fix anything and only add a bit more futile training time.
By using certificates as prereqs, he gets a whole set of skills that will actually help him with his BS. |
Nestara Aldent
EVE University Ivy League
29
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:42:00 -
[19] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Nestara Aldent wrote:...Why T2 medium guns should be a prerequisite for a battleship? Why BC to IV should be a prerequisite, as well? ... Medium guns T2 + BC IV is a good stepping stone before training a battleship and it gives me a good idea of what a battle cruiser can do. Requirements for T2 mediums are the same support skills that Large guns need; ergo T1 Large would at least have support skills. I am trying to look at some other skills that the support gunnery and missile ones can be put under.
No.
How about pirate battleships, you'll have to need two medium T2 gun or missile skill to fly them? Why? Just because _you_ perceive ganking of newbies in battleships to be a problem. But there isn't such a problem at all.
In all your care about those newbies you'd achieve only to prevent them to get easily into pirate BS for running incursions, and if your proposal gets by some miracle into the game, these same newbies will rage because of it.
@iris
They'd get blown up in some other ships instead of battleships. You really want to make running incursions and L4 missions harder for these newbies, dont you? |
Max Von Sydow
Droneboat Diplomacy
159
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Posted - 2012.01.16 15:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
How about updating the fitting window so that it can identify bad fits and warn the player about it. Like if they guy are mixing weapons, tank etc, then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons (in a nice way) and tell them what the problems are. |
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Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
0
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Posted - 2012.01.16 16:08:00 -
[21] - Quote
Max Von Sydow wrote:How about updating the fitting window so that it can identify bad fits and warn the player about it. Like if they guy are mixing weapons, tank etc, then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons (in a nice way) and tell them what the problems are.
I like the idea, but some fits could seem ******** to the script while they actually aren't (projectile weapons on amarr ships for instance).
@Nestara
The pirate ships could only have relevant weapon certificates as prereqs. I wasn't thinking of using the prereqs for the BS skills, but for the BSs themselves.
Lvl 4 missions can be run in a BC with decent skills, much easier than in a BS with crappy skills btw.
I don't want to make things harder for noobs. i want to make things easier for them by preventing them from blindly rushing to BSs without appropriate skills, loose their BS and end up broke.
And while some griefers may find it funny to blow up noobs in expansive ships, it IS a real problem for it can make them quit the game.
Edit : Wow, I didn't think that reta***d would be filtered out... |
Nestara Aldent
EVE University Ivy League
29
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Posted - 2012.01.16 16:12:00 -
[22] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Max Von Sydow wrote:How about updating the fitting window so that it can identify bad fits and warn the player about it. Like if they guy are mixing weapons, tank etc, then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons (in a nice way) and tell them what the problems are. I like the idea, but some fits could seem ******** to the script while they actually aren't (projectile weapons on amarr ships for instance). @Nestara The pirate ships could only have relevant weapon certificates as prereqs. I wasn't thinking of using the prereqs for the BS skills, but for the BSs themselves. Lvl 4 missions can be run in a BC with decent skills, much easier than in a BS with crappy skills btw. I don't want to make things harder for noobs. i want to make things easier for them by preventing them from blindly rushing to BSs without appropriate skills, loose their BS and end up broke. And while some griefers may find it funny to blow up noobs in expansive ships, it IS a real problem for it can make them quit the game.
Its not true. Everybody with BS skill can get into a Raven or Domi and run L4s with zero danger given the proper fit. What fit is necessary to run them in a Myrmidon, for example, with same level of safety?
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Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
2
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Posted - 2012.01.16 16:27:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote: Its not true. Everybody with BS skill can get into a Raven or Domi and run L4s with zero danger given the proper fit. What fit is necessary to run them in a Myrmidon, for example, with same level of safety?
High
t1 guns (based on preference you can use hybrids or ACs)
Med
t1 AB t1 Webber (short range) or TP (rails) t2 Cap rechargers in the remaining slots
Low
t2 Med Armor Repper x2 4 mission specific hardeners (or 3 and a damage mod if you feel like it)
rigs
MCCx3
Drones
t2 Med drones
This worked fine for me. Not very fast, bcs of relatively low dps, but you don't get killed and it's still more profitable than L3 missions.
This seems a bit off topic though...
PS : I used this a few months ago. With capacitor related skills improving, you can get an even better fit of course, but this is what I'd consider the minimum. |
Nestara Aldent
EVE University Ivy League
29
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Posted - 2012.01.16 16:48:00 -
[24] - Quote
What about missions like The Blockade? Your tank will be insufficient if you get webbed because BS will tank twice the DPS that setup can. Sorry but that BC fit don't have the tank of usual BS L4 fit. Also, what about L4 missions where more than two hardeners are needed?
And your DPS will suck and even if you can break the tank of elite BS rat, it will take ages to bring it down.
And wait, its just because you see the problem of newbies getting ganked in a BS, that none else sees, and your solution creates more problems than it solves. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
433
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Posted - 2012.01.16 23:43:00 -
[25] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:... The problem is that what you propose wouldn't prevent our dear noob from training straight to Med Weapon Spec 1, without any support skills (not even gunnery support skills) and then jump into his BS. ...
Nothing thus far as I know uses certificates. I don't have many of them because I mix races, such as Gallente Industrial and Minmatar war ships.
Medium Autocannon Specialisation I requirements. - Motion Prediction IV - Gunnery - Small Auto Cannon Specialisation - and ... darn it. I didn't look at it closely enough.
Okay, changing the OP.
Nestara Aldent wrote:... In all your care about those newbies you'd achieve only to prevent them to get easily into pirate BS for running incursions, and if your proposal gets by some miracle into the game, these same newbies will rage because of it. ...
Unless they are buying their way into those ships with real money then it won't happen any time soon. If they are buying into ships, they might as well buy a character.
Max Von Sydow wrote:... then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons ... and tell them what the problems are. Personally I think that would be too much hand holding and limit them to cookie cutter fits. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Iris Bravemount
Airkio Mining Corp Bloodbound.
10
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Posted - 2012.01.17 00:23:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nestara Aldent wrote:What about missions like The Blockade? Your tank will be insufficient if you get webbed because BS will tank twice the DPS that setup can. Sorry but that BC fit don't have the tank of usual BS L4 fit. Also, what about L4 missions where more than two hardeners are needed?
And your DPS will suck and even if you can break the tank of elite BS rat, it will take ages to bring it down.
And wait, its just because you see the problem of newbies getting ganked in a BS, that none else sees, and your solution creates more problems than it solves.
True, I couldn't do some missions, and some required hardener changes between rooms. But it was nonetheless feasable. Believe it or not.
And no, I'm not the only one seeing a problem with noobs getting blown up in expensive ship.
[spoiler] I didn't start this thread. [/spoiler]
My solution doesn't create any problems. It merely keeps noobs from making bad decisions, which in turn avoids ragequits. Don't tell me that you advocate running incursions without the most basic support skills as long as one is sitting in a BS. I expect much better from an EvE University member.
Quote:Unless they are buying their way into those ships with real money then it won't happen any time soon. If they are buying into ships, they might as well buy a character.
I agree. |
Jenshae Chiroptera
433
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Posted - 2012.01.17 00:25:00 -
[27] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:... I agree.
OP updated with an example of skill requirements. Nothing too arduous but enough for enquiring minds to wonder why they are needed. Ideas & stuff EVE - the game of sand castles, either building them or kicking them down. -á Status: Taking a break |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
3
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Posted - 2012.01.17 02:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:... I agree. OP updated with an example of skill requirements. Nothing too arduous but enough for enquiring minds to wonder why they are needed.
The problem they have is based on lack of experience.
Create a helper window that let's them perform test fits on various ships. Let it show automated expectations about default fights against different NPC's.
IE: The rogue drones would destroy this ship in 3:30, consider a more sustainable tank, or guns with a higher DPS.
Put in a pull down menu to select a mission level, and another for NPC type.
(Yes, I know EFT and other programs do similar things, but if they already knew about those, they would not be in this position of flying horrible fits doomed to grief) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4445
|
Posted - 2012.01.17 02:58:00 -
[29] - Quote
Unless you set all the sensible skills as absolute, mechanics-enforced prerequisites, doing it through skills won't help a bit GÇö they'll just rush through the new prereqs and be, in anything, even less prepared for what's coming (since they've wasted all that time on some silly high prereq rather than on building up a solid broad baseline of skills).
What you're talking about is an education problem GÇö not a mechanics problem. It cannot be solved mechanically without some down-right ridiculous restrictions that will only serve to **** off anyone who isn't in the absolute-first-char-and-absolutely-no-clue stage of their EVE life. And even then, the result is questionable: newbies with a brain will just be annoyed that they aren't allowed to think for themselves; newbies without a brain will still not take the time to learn how to fit a ship properly, will still die, and will still quit (now with even more of a rage: GÇ£I spent all this time on this crap and it dies to four frigates?! WTF!!GÇ¥).
The best you can do (aside from other players giving proper advice to newbies in the n00bcorps) is probably to throw even more Aura in there GÇö delayed lectures that are account-time limited (much like newbie help chat) that triggers the first time you try to buy any kind of slightly advanced skill, and which points out the cert recommendations and how they exist for a reason. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Raina Raimo
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.01.17 23:24:00 -
[30] - Quote
I cant really blame them. A lot of the new players have a hard time finding what to do and they migh find that instead of levels, you buy ships and buy better ships. So they just try to rush and grind the money for better ships. Someone should tell them to stop and that the point of the game is to.. Is to.. **** i dont even know myself what the point of the game is. Put a pvp fit to a rifter and go explore 0.0? That is my current project at least, no idea if it is wise. |
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