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Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2007.08.24 14:09:00 -
[1]
First let me preface by saying, yes, I'm an alt. I use this alt when I don't want to idiocy that has become some of the alliance threads to play a part in the discussion. If you are unaware of this idiocy then you haven't read COAD in 8 or so months.
One thing I have been is around the block for about two years in EvE. I've been in my share of major alliances some of which lost their space, and others which took someone else's. This isn't a sour grapes post.
But somewhere alliance warfare has just become....boring.
Its boring to win and boring to lose, and its the first time I've really questioned what the devs vision is for the game.
Blobs are an issue in that the servers can't handle it. The ability to lag out a system has become a valid tactic in alliance warfare, but instead of adding features to make blobing less of a necessity, they seem to be increasing it. The sovereignty system, the way pos's can be deployed, the stront times, the huge amount of hitpoints, all mean you need X hundred people and the other side has time to bring Y hundred people. Taking 5 hours getting a fight set up for a POS only to have your ship take literally 10 minutes to respond to a command (if at all) is not fun, its boring. I think it takes 12 minutes to send a command to the mars rovers, so basically EvE might as well have their servers on Mars when it comes to fleet combat.
Then its the time sink. Now games like WoW have time sinks which I think most EvE players would say are very boring and frustrating. Having to get 40 people to play for 8 hours at a set time to get a 1% chance of a drop that you need to pay for with participation isn't fun for most sane people. Yet EvE has time sinks just as big. Destroying and reping POS structures takes hours of doing basically nothing, the same applies to station services. So they had 20 guys pound on your clonebay out of prime time, and now you have guys repping it. The guys attacking the clone bay were bored. The guys repairing it are bored. This is pretty much a daily occurrence.
Now I can understand where this still might be fun for alliance leadership, they get to play a grand game of RISK, but for the rest of us who are the grunts, whats the point anymore?
I can see why CCP is going this direction. They were afraid that somehow 0.0 would become a monopoly and that would be bad for their subscription numbers. This is something CCP Wrangler as stated as the most important priority to CCP in a different post, and a long time player is no more valuable to CCP than a new one. As long as the numbers are good, they don't really care what the issues might be.
That being said, another way for 0.0 to be less of a monopoly would instead of making it very hard to capture space, make it very hard to hold space. If any group with a battle ship fleet could give you a hard time you would see less of a static situation in 0.0 and get more participation from people (and less need to blob) . More importantly it would be FUN.
When words like hard work and dedication are used to describe your gaming experience, something is broken. I set my alarm clock so I can make it to work on time, I shouldn't have to do that to play a game.
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Malcanis
High4Life Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 14:54:00 -
[2]
Or: let's just have a couple more regions of NPC 0.0 space, with 4 or 5 entry points each instead of 1 or 2. No sovereignty there, so no POS spamming. Lots of scope for small alliances and corps to get a foothold into 0.0 and enjoy some small gang pew-pew.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
TOTALHELLDEATH
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Posted - 2007.08.24 14:58:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jenna Shame
First let me preface by saying, yes, I'm an alt. I use this alt when I don't want to idiocy that has become some of the alliance threads to play a part in the discussion. If you are unaware of this idiocy then you haven't read COAD in 8 or so months.
One thing I have been is around the block for about two years in EvE. I've been in my share of major alliances some of which lost their space, and others which took someone else's. This isn't a sour grapes post.
But somewhere alliance warfare has just become....boring.
Its boring to win and boring to lose, and its the first time I've really questioned what the devs vision is for the game.
Blobs are an issue in that the servers can't handle it. The ability to lag out a system has become a valid tactic in alliance warfare, but instead of adding features to make blobing less of a necessity, they seem to be increasing it. The sovereignty system, the way pos's can be deployed, the stront times, the huge amount of hitpoints, all mean you need X hundred people and the other side has time to bring Y hundred people. Taking 5 hours getting a fight set up for a POS only to have your ship take literally 10 minutes to respond to a command (if at all) is not fun, its boring. I think it takes 12 minutes to send a command to the mars rovers, so basically EvE might as well have their servers on Mars when it comes to fleet combat.
Then its the time sink. Now games like WoW have time sinks which I think most EvE players would say are very boring and frustrating. Having to get 40 people to play for 8 hours at a set time to get a 1% chance of a drop that you need to pay for with participation isn't fun for most sane people. Yet EvE has time sinks just as big. Destroying and reping POS structures takes hours of doing basically nothing, the same applies to station services. So they had 20 guys pound on your clonebay out of prime time, and now you have guys repping it. The guys attacking the clone bay were bored. The guys repairing it are bored. This is pretty much a daily occurrence.
Now I can understand where this still might be fun for alliance leadership, they get to play a grand game of RISK, but for the rest of us who are the grunts, whats the point anymore?
I can see why CCP is going this direction. They were afraid that somehow 0.0 would become a monopoly and that would be bad for their subscription numbers. This is something CCP Wrangler as stated as the most important priority to CCP in a different post, and a long time player is no more valuable to CCP than a new one. As long as the numbers are good, they don't really care what the issues might be.
That being said, another way for 0.0 to be less of a monopoly would instead of making it very hard to capture space, make it very hard to hold space. If any group with a battle ship fleet could give you a hard time you would see less of a static situation in 0.0 and get more participation from people (and less need to blob) . More importantly it would be FUN.
When words like hard work and dedication are used to describe your gaming experience, something is broken. I set my alarm clock so I can make it to work on time, I shouldn't have to do that to play a game.
>But somewhere alliance warfare has just become....boring.
crap, alliance warfare is best thing of complete eve, their is nothing better than have a large scale fleetfight.
The only stupid thing is the EVE - Engine, it breaks on fights with more than 200 player. You get lag, you got desync and you cant login back fot 6 - 10 minutes if you got disconnect.
But i will not say i dont wanna fights with 200+ people, all this "anti-blob" - things are totaly stupid. if i wanna have small scale pvp i go and play counter strike or battlefield2.
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Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.24 15:15:00 -
[4]
It would be if the screen would load the 500 fighters that block out the sun and would thusly make me fight in the shade
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Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.24 15:30:00 -
[5]
Your wrong about the 'make it hard to defend space' idea. That's the way it used to be before POS's and Soverignty. Roving gangs could just shoot a station's shield and claim it. If you remember that, you'd remember just how much that sucked in comparision to today's Soverignty claims.
Honestly, what we need is the ability to fight in 200-vs-200 man fights. If the hardware can ever handle that, you'd have a good alliance warfare system.
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Zimjin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.24 15:36:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Zimjin on 24/08/2007 15:37:09 One thing they could consider would be to try and spread out these big fights.
For example, Planetside --
There were 3 ways to capture a base, basically. You could do a frontal attack and take over the capture point and hold it against all comers for 10 minutes OR you could destroy the spawn tubes, stopping the enemy from spawning there OR you could destroy the generator, which shut down the whole base.
Defenders needed to defend all 3 spots. They couldn't just focus on one thing. Attackers could shift from one to another based on how the fight seemed to be going. Attackers had their own spawn spots to defend, as well, which the base defenders could reach out to attack in addition to defending their 3 vulnerable areas.
The net result was less lag. You still have 200 people fighting, but not all in the exact same place, which is where the real lag comes from. Even if EVE handles it, even if the client can handle it, odds are your connection can't handle it and it costs the developers a bundle to even support that much burst bandwidth.
My suggestion would be for CCP to ponder something like this for POS fights.
Find a way to spread it out a bit. It could still be 300 people in the same system fighting each other, but come up with a way to spread them out so they don't all have to fight in the same spot.
That might not only reduce lag, but make the battles more strategic as well.
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Nub tard
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Posted - 2007.08.24 15:55:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Nub tard on 24/08/2007 16:01:36 I agree with the OP a 100%. And this is not a gripe, maybe some moaning here and there.
Alliance warefare is boring. Putting up POS's is boring, reping shields on POS's is boring, yet, to do all this boring work you have to have equipment in ships that can add up to over a billion isk investment like a carrier with remote shield transporters, or a carrier with remote armor reps. I think alliance warefare killed my interest when our FC convoed the enemy FC asking for a fair numbers battle when the enemy fleet kept running away from us, but not going home, just running back and fourth between sectors. Blobbing is becoming more of a tatic lately, and the lag just makes it no fun at all. To enter a sector with a fleet battle, and having to wait 15 to 30 seconds before the ship responds to clicks or keyboard strokes is just wrong, and not very fun. See in Counter Strike Lag can be handeled by the player more easily because there is not that much of a time sink. In EVE people get ****ed when their stuff gets destroyed because they couldn't issue commands quickly enough because of LAG.
I agree with the OP that it seems the direction in EVE is turn it into one big game of RISK for the big alliances, and the little people are forced to do grunt work if they want to live in 0.0 space.
I think there needs to be alliance anchorable gate sentry guns like the ones in empire. Limit four at a gate. Now things get very interesting in 0.0 warefare.
EVE is a time sink game. Want to build- you have to mine or spend your time traveling vast distances gathering minerals. Want to PVP - gotta have the isk, so you spend your time running missions, complexes, or ratting. All of which gets pretty darn boring after four hours, in some cases 1 hour. But some people like this, I guess..100K + subscribers can't be wrong, or do we all love this game so much we accept that we have to have these time sinks to be bigger, stronger, and better than the enemy? In either case, most things in eve take to much time. EVE needs to be like X2 where you can control your ships remotely and give them orders. That way a player can mine, mission run, and pvp all at the same time. The option to multitask to the player needs to be there, instead of performing one task at a time, I think that would be the biggest value to the game added since the warp to 0 option.
Today my alliance may be involved in a big op, and I tell you what is going to happen- It's going to take three hours to get everyone organized, then at the last minute someone that kisses @ss will need to refit their ship and the FC will sit and wait on them. Then we will leave for our destination, where we will sit and wait. People will tell stupid stuff over vent, and then we will attack some ships. Unfortuntly I rarely get in kill mails because they get truncated, and then I get harassed by the alliance for not being apart on any kills. Alliance warefare has it's MOMENTS of fun, and that's what they are moments, compared to the HOURS of doing nothing and boringness staring at a computer screen waiting for something to happen.
Small gang pvp is almost gone from eve, at least in conquerable space. the last time I was in a small gang, we found an even match and started our pew pew. then a few carriers jumped in from the opposing side and it was over, so I rarely particpate in small gang pvp in 0.0 because this happens a lot. A small gang sets a trap for the other small gang, and then what fun is it, to jump your small carrier force in and take out a few cruisers and battlecruisers?
I think CCP needs to limit the amount of mass of ships that can be in a sector. For instance a fleet consiting of frigs and cruisers could have more ships in their fleet vs the enmey fleet of Battleships, but who can get in the sector first with their entire fleet? Or maybe add in a gate recharge time.
Anyway 'nuff said I gotta get back to work.
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Price Watcher
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Posted - 2007.08.24 15:58:00 -
[8]
Large gangs are no fun at all.
1. Sound off.
2. Turret effects off.
3. All other effects off.
4. Zoom out until you can't see your own ship or anyone else's ship.
5. Fight, at a frame rate of 1/2 frames per second.
6. Desync. Die a useless death.
Yep, Alliance fighting is about as much fun as a spreadsheet calculation.
POST WITH YOUR ALT! |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.24 15:59:00 -
[9]
Well I really think CCP must hire a psycologist. Thier changes clearly ignore nature of human mind and do not attempt to predict how people will counter them.
Moving POS stuff outside the bubble was great move, statiosn services great idea, but giving them ridiculously high HP was not. People simply blob more and MORE to kill them fast. If you want targets to be achievable by small gangs Do it! But keep in mind, targets must be achievable in a handful of minutes by a small gang, like 10 minutes. Otehrwise if it takes 1-2 hours (like it is now) just make people get angry and bring 300 people to do the job in a reasonable time!!
CCP MUSt put thin in their mind, Small gangs will only be used to attack strategic targets, if they can achieve some success (like disabling a POS module) in few minutes of engagement.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
mlyp
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Posted - 2007.08.24 16:37:00 -
[10]
Originally by: TOTALHELLDEATH all this "anti-blob" - things are totaly stupid.
Much like your posting.
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Leroy Payne
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:05:00 -
[11]
yeah large-scale alliance **** is boring and for brainless drones in my opinion. That's why I use the regions that already exist like Syndicate and enjoy the small gang stuff very much.
Perhaps that's what you are looking for. If you want a break from total lag death and hellish engagements of boredom, and want to get back to some real pvp where your contribution actually amkes a difference - message me I might have a corp for you.
cheers.
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Nub tard
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:20:00 -
[12]
Hmm just learned something new, but it would just show I don't forum ***** enough.
Leory I agree with you too. I am a past resident of Stain, and some of the best fun in EVE that I have had as taken place in Stain. I still call Stain home, even though I don't know if I'll ever be able to return there.
But for the momement I have to defend an alliance's space and attack another alliance's space, so that means the way of the LAG. Oh don't you just love it when a titan comes in but you never knew until after the DD because of the Lag?
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Nobler
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:23:00 -
[13]
/signed
I agree with the OP |
Hemroid
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:25:00 -
[14]
/signed |
Mikuhl
Caldari Messerschmitt Shipyards
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:27:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Jenna Shame
First let me preface by saying, yes, I'm an alt. I use this alt when I don't want to idiocy that has become some of the alliance threads to play a part in the discussion. If you are unaware of this idiocy then you haven't read COAD in 8 or so months.
One thing I have been is around the block for about two years in EvE. I've been in my share of major alliances some of which lost their space, and others which took someone else's. This isn't a sour grapes post.
But somewhere alliance warfare has just become....boring.
Its boring to win and boring to lose, and its the first time I've really questioned what the devs vision is for the game.
Blobs are an issue in that the servers can't handle it. The ability to lag out a system has become a valid tactic in alliance warfare, but instead of adding features to make blobing less of a necessity, they seem to be increasing it. The sovereignty system, the way pos's can be deployed, the stront times, the huge amount of hitpoints, all mean you need X hundred people and the other side has time to bring Y hundred people. Taking 5 hours getting a fight set up for a POS only to have your ship take literally 10 minutes to respond to a command (if at all) is not fun, its boring. I think it takes 12 minutes to send a command to the mars rovers, so basically EvE might as well have their servers on Mars when it comes to fleet combat.
Then its the time sink. Now games like WoW have time sinks which I think most EvE players would say are very boring and frustrating. Having to get 40 people to play for 8 hours at a set time to get a 1% chance of a drop that you need to pay for with participation isn't fun for most sane people. Yet EvE has time sinks just as big. Destroying and reping POS structures takes hours of doing basically nothing, the same applies to station services. So they had 20 guys pound on your clonebay out of prime time, and now you have guys repping it. The guys attacking the clone bay were bored. The guys repairing it are bored. This is pretty much a daily occurrence.
Now I can understand where this still might be fun for alliance leadership, they get to play a grand game of RISK, but for the rest of us who are the grunts, whats the point anymore?
I can see why CCP is going this direction. They were afraid that somehow 0.0 would become a monopoly and that would be bad for their subscription numbers. This is something CCP Wrangler as stated as the most important priority to CCP in a different post, and a long time player is no more valuable to CCP than a new one. As long as the numbers are good, they don't really care what the issues might be.
That being said, another way for 0.0 to be less of a monopoly would instead of making it very hard to capture space, make it very hard to hold space. If any group with a battle ship fleet could give you a hard time you would see less of a static situation in 0.0 and get more participation from people (and less need to blob) . More importantly it would be FUN.
When words like hard work and dedication are used to describe your gaming experience, something is broken. I set my alarm clock so I can make it to work on time, I shouldn't have to do that to play a game.
/signed |
FuQue
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:32:00 -
[16]
Agreed! Fleet warfare is boring as hell. Sitting around shooting station services or POS guns for HOURS is NOT my idea of a "fun" game. The only way I see to make things better is by using the strategy mentioned in a previous post ^.
Spread out the targets. Make them easier to kill. Yes, some corp might (and will) blob these targets to kill them in a few minutes, but overall I honestly believe more strategy will be used. As it stands now, gates, POS's and Stations are the only places battles take place. My suggestion is to add some things to the mix - Lowered station services hitpoints (easier to kill AND repair). Lowered POS module hitpoints (again - easier to kill AND repair). Gate modules. ADD THEM! Sentry guns. Gate scanners. Gate LOCKERS. The cyno jammer was a great idea, but HOLY HELL why does it have so many hitpoints? It's almost as if CCP WANTED large fleet battles. There's no other explanation for the huge amount of hitpoints these things have. It's rediculous. And Now - POS's are even HARDER to kill with a large group - Sig Resolution has been increased, making it harder for a large fleet of Battleships to do their thing - so now, we need MORE! I don't GET IT CCP! You say one thing, then do another in-game. You are leaving your player-base VERY confused, irritated, and just plain lost. The latest changed to POS Scan Resolutions is a /perfect/ example that CCP doesn't know how to implement something without making more BLOBS. I refuse to sit and shoot at POS's for hours on end. I refuse to repair services and POS modules for hours on end. I refuse to engage a 400 pilot blob with assurance that I'll be obliterated before I see my own ship. It's a waste of my time, and a lot of others feel the same way, I'm sure. To Re-iterate: STOP MAKING CHANGES THAT INCREASE BLOB WARFARE. GO THE OTHER WAY FOR ONCE. Thanks.
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cuteboylookingatyou
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Posted - 2007.08.24 17:49:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Malcanis Or: let's just have a couple more regions of NPC 0.0 space, with 4 or 5 entry points each instead of 1 or 2. No sovereignty there, so no POS spamming. Lots of scope for small alliances and corps to get a foothold into 0.0 and enjoy some small gang pew-pew.
It is what everyone asks for.
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:04:00 -
[18]
Seems CCP simply and patheticaly freaked out about the chance of POS being disabled too easily by BS and made things so hard so hard that they had the exect oposite effect. You cannot face a PSO without a HUGE fleet.
VEry VERY bad work ccp. Incredbly bad work.
Try start solving things by droping Station Services Hp to 1/8 of what they are and POS modules to 1/4 of what they are. Also make POS guns track a bit worse. A nano BC with AB running 1 km/s at 10-15k m form POs guns is simply hit 90% of time.. All wrong here. The only way to face POS with a huge fleet to remote repair you.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Praesus Lecti
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:04:00 -
[19]
It really is quite sad that one of the biggest draws in this game is also the source of the most depressing complaints. There are those of us out there who are preparing themselves to eventually head out into 0.0 space but then reconsider when reports come in about the boring and frustrating nature of alliance warfare.
I have zero problems losing my ship or my pod to another person(s)when the only factors involved are my abilities pitted against theirs. But when I lose a ship/pod due to circumstances such as hardware that is incapable of processing that fight I think twice about even considering a move to 0.0 space.
Let me fight other players..do not make me fight the server hardware.
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Bizz Lizz
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:36:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 24/08/2007 18:37:49
Originally by: Zimjin
One thing they could consider would be to try and spread out these big fights. For example, Planetside --
It's not directly comparable imho. One difference is that in Planetside, the population per continent is restricted for each side and balanced.(-> pop-lock). Besides that sizes and power of the 3 empires on the server was a bit self-balancing, too, because if one empire had less numbers than another one, it got a bonus. So battles in planetside happen under relatively fair and forseeable conditions with known max-numbers. You were not able to blob.
If Planetside was like EVE and allowed unlimited unbalanced numbers, it would have been often like 1000 vs. 200 players trying to fight on one continent I guess. Probably worse than in EVE.
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.24 18:53:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Price Watcher Large gangs are no fun at all.
1. Sound off.
2. Turret effects off.
3. All other effects off.
4. Zoom out until you can't see your own ship or anyone else's ship.
5. Fight, at a frame rate of 1/2 frames per second.
6. Desync. Die a useless death.
Yep, Alliance fighting is about as much fun as a spreadsheet calculation.
I wish it was as fun as a spreadsheet calculation.
Still, I like being part of a gigantic swarm taking space. ---
Grismar.net |
FreelancerAlpha
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Posted - 2007.08.24 19:20:00 -
[22]
I find myself somewhat agreeing with the idea of npc 0.0. Lowsec isnt being used, add some new gates, take away sec status and sentrys..let some corps enjoy what has to be the best part of eve pvp: roaming gangs.
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Zimjin
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:00:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Bizz Lizz If Planetside was like EVE and allowed unlimited unbalanced numbers, it would have been often like 1000 vs. 200 players trying to fight on one continent I guess. Probably worse than in EVE.
That happened a lot, actually. One side's "main attack continent" would be the other side's "secondary defense continent" and you'd have 300 attackers vs like 30 defenders or less.
The idea isn't to make things even or fair.
The idea is to simply take whatever numbers you have and get some of them out of sight of each other so you don't bog the system down.
I'm not sure what kind of mechanic EVE could introduce to do this, though. Maybe a POS needs two support structures, located no less than 1 AU away from the POS and you cannot assault the POS without capturing and holding these support structures. Now instead of 1 thing to fight around, there's 3, well seperated from each other, and you need to handle them all fairly simultaniously.
Cause really, if you look at places like Jita, the game doesn't really bog down until you get about 1500 people in there. So the problem isn't that having 1000 people in a system is bad, it's that having 1000 people in a system all within line of sight of each other is unsupportable. Change the mechanics to spread them out and you're probably fine. Or at least better off than before. Even an MMO has limits to how much data it can handle in one place at one time.
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Hayah Theos
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:49:00 -
[24]
AAAAAHHH! The sound of success! It is finally sinking in to people that for 80 - 90 percent of the pilots in Eve, their only function is to be cannon-fodder cogs in the BORG Empire's machine. Well, I'm glad you are waking up to the truth about the pitiful resource model in Eve and your irrelevency, except as grist for the BORG's entertainment mill.
Until the Developers rebalance the AVERAGE pilot's access to real isk source opportunities, there is no place in Eve for you except as monkeys on the music-grinder's leash.
ENJOY EVE.
(P.S. BORG = Beta Organization Resource Group)
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Falbala
Gallente Les Enfants de Gaia
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Posted - 2007.08.24 20:58:00 -
[25]
It's interesting because when I started Eve, the initial idea with my corp was to become an ecologist group, and attack and destroy the giant secure containers that were littering all around the jump gates. But it appeared that a giant secure container has a gigantic amount of hp, and afterwards they've been nerfed anyway.
With POS it is the same problem. I understand that conventional weapons would be inefficient but there should be some special missiles, ammunition or laser that would be able to attack this more efficiently, at the cost of range or precision for instance. As I see it, it is easily fixable if CCP decides once for all that such equipment should be more easily destroyable.
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Gestation
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Posted - 2007.08.24 22:51:00 -
[26]
Originally by: "OP"
Is alliance level combat fun for you?
Not by a long shot.
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Ron Lycan
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Posted - 2007.08.25 00:32:00 -
[27]
Alliance blobbing is by far the most boring and degrading feature of EVE at this moment.
I'd rather PvP with my gang mates of 20 roaming then join an alliance fleet of 150 or more to destroy a Station that I can't even manuver through due to massive lag.
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gestation
Originally by: "OP"
Is alliance level combat fun for you?
Not by a long shot.
Yup.
If I had to do alliance combat in the state its at atm, I'd go psycho. Here's the thing - empire building, its a cool concept, I don't knock it.
However, the way CCP have chosen to go about it, with emphasis on blobs, invulnerable Sov 4 systems, POS takedown after POS takedown, it sucks. Bottom line.
Until they fix the servers to handle blobs, and remove the POS mechanics that influence sovereignty, there's no way I'm doing alliance combat.
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althan gnartians
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:54:00 -
[29]
The problem as I see it with sov warfare is it¦s fixed around pretty short timeframes, but takes massive planning, and due to the massive metagaming deployed buy alliances like BoB(or BoB-lite/Goonswarm), the planning is kept from the grunts, meaning that you spend five hours taking orders from someone not telling you half of whats going on in order to have the whole fight go down in a matter of 2-3 laggy minutes.
It need to be refocused around something different then hit points on solid structure and more about maintaining a presence in an entire constellation.
Heres a few suggestions
Make all sovereignty based on constalation and not system count of posÆes.
Make a station in contested space a concord sanctioned free trade hub usable by all involved parties.
PoS in reinforced should not burn stront when noone is firing at them plain and simple, force the attackers to hold the system for the duration of the reinforced mode, but give them far less HP.
Separate Moon mining PoSÆes from sov holding structure and limit the amount of places for anchoring sov holding structures (use something like inhabited planets as base instead of moons).
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darkmancer
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Posted - 2007.08.25 13:12:00 -
[30]
Allow external structures to be shut down though hacking as well as being shot down. Give a 10min + countdown so a defense can be organised.
Now it doesnt matter if you have 1 or 1000 people, you can still hurt the enemy.
You'd have to disable the hacking ships for the duration of the hack to stop hack and runs, but as long as you control the space you can hurt the enemy.
Some mor balances may need to be added but least it ofters an alternative to the almighty blob. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong |
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Zombie Network
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 14:00:00 -
[31]
I enjoy Alliance combat because you can make a tangible differance to the game, when you defeat you enemies you drive them from their homes, force them back to NPC 0.0/Empire and often make their alliance disband (look at LV/D2 for good examples of this), and you also risk having the same being done to you. It is a high stakes game where the outcome of a war makes a big differance to you and your alliance, giving a massive sense of acheivement or loss that I have never seen in any other game.
That said, what you have to do to acheive this sucks. Spending hours upon hours killing POS and requireing superior numbers (in almost every case) to do so is really boring.
I would like to see a lot (and I mean a LOT) more intermediary strategic objectives that can be acheived with a gang of 30-50 pilots with a mixed fleet setup (not 50 BS) in a reasonable amount of time (20-30 minutes). Instead of a 200 person fleet, you would have 4-5 wings (sup fleet system) working independantly to acheive muliple strategic goals simultaniously over multiple systems at once. A large 200 pilot fleet could defend a single objective easily, at the cost of losing 2-3 other objectives at the same time making the 'blob' relatively ineffective short of engaging another 'blob' of equal size.
Raw numbers will still have the advantage, and they should, but it gives the oppertunity for a numerically challenged opponent to defend by engaging the smaller groups of enemies seperately using superior skill and tactics. Lots more skirmishes around 50 on 50, less sitting around waiting for 200 people to join gang before you are capable for launching an assult/defense, and less of a reliance on the 'superblob' to win the day without even having a fight.
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Sakura Nihil
Tabula Rasa Systems The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.08.25 14:01:00 -
[32]
The answer is simple, really.
Tie sovereingty only to stations. Fleets defend stations from other fleets, stations have reasonable strontium reserves to force a time of engagement, a single takedown op rather than killing dozens of POSes and not shooting a single player ship for hours. POSes go back to their previous industrial-focused uses, shipyards, factories, mining centers, the works.
Problem solved on the whole in my mind.
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Celeste Coeval
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2007.08.25 14:17:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Celeste Coeval on 25/08/2007 14:17:28
"If you are out to describe the truth, leave elegance to the tailor."
-Albert Einstein
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.08.25 14:43:00 -
[34]
I actually used to much prefer the days of station ping-pong, before 'sovereignty' was introduced.
I mean, just what is 'sovereignty'? How does this magical thing allow your towers to use less fuel? Or make deployment of certain structures possible? Or grant an outpost invulnerability? Does that really make any sense whatsoever from a background perspective?....
...which leads onto the next question, do we really need the 'sovereignty' mechanic at all?
From my experience, the fun has dimimshed and the lag increased, since this mechanic got more and more entwined in alliance warfare.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2007.08.25 17:47:00 -
[35]
Well its pretty clear that no one enjoys alliance warfare at this juncture.
CCP's crown jewel, the one thing eve can truly offer that no other MMO comes close to, is boring.
My RL issues are keeping me mostly out of game, but I find I just don't miss it.
I don't see CCP changing direction though, shame.
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Vivian Azure
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Posted - 2007.08.25 18:30:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Vivian Azure on 25/08/2007 18:33:33 First off, yes I'm an alt, as I'm not allowed to post with my main.
Alliance warfare is no fun at all, when it comes to claiming space. It's just a question of numbers, rather then skill or experience. So it's more fun to roam around in gangs of around 10 pilots, killing everything on the side of the street until you get killed yourself by a big blob, rather then loosing 200 ships in one big, lagged out fight.
Reduce the real big fights to station-systems only. No POS-spamming-sovereignity-system and all this crap. If you own the station-system, you gain constellation sovereignity, plain simple. So you only have to defend that one system, where you can have enough ressources, to undock all the time in a brand new ship.
All POSs would reduced to strategic or industrial targets, but the POSs in the station-system. That would make it easier for small alliances to simply deploy a station somewhere in a free constellation and there they go.
I think this would encourage more raoming gangs and small gang-warfare, as you simply can give the others a hard time to enjoy their claimed space, rather then shooting their POSs for weeks.
It would also encourage smaller groups to simply deploy a POS somewhere trying to make money with it, therefor lowering the price-tag for POSs.
But I'll never see this I believe.
The only thing we'll see is more and more frustrated people trying to activate a module after jumping into a grid with 200+ ships.
So long, fly safe everyone.
"edited for spelling"
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.08.25 18:43:00 -
[37]
I hardly play my main anymore due to the way alliance warfare works atm. The capital pilotes get at least some action, even if shooting pos is more like mining than pvp, but the socalled supportfleet just sits around twiddling their thumbs... I spent whole weekends like that, and honestly im sick of it.
You spend whatnot in time to train all kinds of nifty t2 ships and then you get to fly a grand total of 1 ship: fleetbs. Btw, anyone noticed that 20 man gangs dont even work anymore? You fly around with with 20 peeps and whambam 12 carriers drop on you assoon as you find some targets. Sure you get easily away from that, but you might aswell forget any pvp in that region for the time being or call on the blob .
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.08.26 12:58:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Bentula I hardly play my main anymore due to the way alliance warfare works atm. The capital pilotes get at least some action, even if shooting pos is more like mining than pvp, but the socalled supportfleet just sits around twiddling their thumbs... I spent whole weekends like that, and honestly im sick of it.
You spend whatnot in time to train all kinds of nifty t2 ships and then you get to fly a grand total of 1 ship: fleetbs. Btw, anyone noticed that 20 man gangs dont even work anymore? You fly around with with 20 peeps and whambam 12 carriers drop on you assoon as you find some targets. Sure you get easily away from that, but you might aswell forget any pvp in that region for the time being or call on the blob .
Why do you need 20 people to 'find some targets'?...
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.08.26 13:13:00 -
[39]
Fleet fights are not really fun...the first few times it's one of those "wow, look at all these people! This is gonna be sweet! moments if you even feel wowed the third or fourth time that is. I don't find them entertaining at all. I'm more likely to hop in a vagabond and go murder my enemies ratting ships than participating in fleet fights.
I do my job in my own way and try to enjoy the game. Sitting around for an hour waiting for 20+ people to get their stupid ships together in the same system, and then wait for 1 guy to jump ahead and say "all clear" about 30 times to get to X destination HOPING we run into an enemy group that WILL engage us or that we can force to engage us, is just flat out boring. I already sit on teamspeak talking to people...I don't need to sit on teamspeak being told what to do for about 3-4 hours long while we chit-chat in between orders.
Small gang combat is always much better in EVE than fleet crap in my opinion. It's less militaristic...less restrictive...more entertaining because people will actually engage you. Ehhhh I should probably elaborate on some things but I'm just going to cut this short right here. ---
Put in space whales!
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Awox
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.08.26 13:55:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Malcanis Or: let's just have a couple more regions of NPC 0.0 space, with 4 or 5 entry points each instead of 1 or 2. No sovereignty there, so no POS spamming. Lots of scope for small alliances and corps to get a foothold into 0.0 and enjoy some small gang pew-pew.
This. EVE is getting too small.
In regards to OP. I have engaged in many great wars and I have not enjoyed them as much as I have any other thing I could do in EVE.
I am of the opinion that most "PvPers" in 0.0 are just puppets. The only people they serve are the leaders of their alliance. But whatever, if they want a second job.. that's their business.
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Kirjava
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.26 14:22:00 -
[41]
I went on a PvP op in my alliance around 3 to 4 weeks ago. We killed a Cerberus, a shuttle and an interceptor plus their pods. After 6 hours of piloting an interdictor my orders were stay on gate bubble if someone comes in. This was labled a "good op" for reasons I am quite confused about given we were a 200 man gang that managed to kill 3 ships and pods in 6 hours. Alliance PvP is the grind - in mining one can see their money increasing and create plans to make more money - alliance PvP as a Flycatcher pilot I found to be the single most boring part of my entire Eve experience. And I concur with the suggestion for a psycologist for eves content division - more HP = bring more guns in all FC books. I wonder if POS warfare could be compared to the trenches of WW1 - attrition. The dreads are the tanks but the trenches still remain. Have studied neither WW1 nor participated in dreads btw, just what I picked up over the years.
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Mikelio Raijan
Sulithus
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Posted - 2007.08.26 14:33:00 -
[42]
WTB: EvE Classic -The days before the POS's and capships-
You newer players don't know the amazing game you missed.
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Doctor Fruitloop
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Posted - 2007.08.26 14:36:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Mikelio Raijan WTB: EvE Classic -The days before the POS's and capships-
You newer players don't know the amazing game you missed.
You can probably find that if you look around hard enough. I read somewheres about pirate servers running for WoW so Eve isn't too much a stretch of the imagination.
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Shaktipat
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Posted - 2007.08.26 15:13:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Kirjava I went on a PvP op in my alliance around 3 to 4 weeks ago. We killed a Cerberus, a shuttle and an interceptor plus their pods. After 6 hours of piloting an interdictor my orders were stay on gate bubble if someone comes in. This was labled a "good op" for reasons I am quite confused about given we were a 200 man gang that managed to kill 3 ships and pods in 6 hours. Alliance PvP is the grind - in mining one can see their money increasing and create plans to make more money - alliance PvP as a Flycatcher pilot I found to be the single most boring part of my entire Eve experience. And I concur with the suggestion for a psycologist for eves content division - more HP = bring more guns in all FC books. I wonder if POS warfare could be compared to the trenches of WW1 - attrition. The dreads are the tanks but the trenches still remain. Have studied neither WW1 nor participated in dreads btw, just what I picked up over the years.
This sums up pvp in EVE. Unless your in an elite pirate corp or have 20mill sp that u can be part of the better pvp corps, pvp is as much of a grind and hard to find fun fights.
When my alliance is gate camping with 3 capitols and loads of BS's for the sake of one elite AF you have to wonder. And when they did not get the kill they felt like they missed out on pvp.....
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Daelin Blackleaf
No Joy Corp Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.26 15:36:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Price Watcher Large gangs are no fun at all.
1. Sound off.
2. Turret effects off.
3. All other effects off.
4. Zoom out until you can't see your own ship or anyone else's ship.
5. Fight, at a frame rate of 1/2 frames per second.
6. Desync. Die a useless death.
Yep, Alliance fighting is about as much fun as a spreadsheet calculation.
Quoted for truth. Alliance warfare makes your skills (both your SP and your RL ingenuity) redundant. Victory is unsatisfying, defeat is no big deal since there was little else you could have done better. I don't want to be just another gun on the ship that is the blob.
...and so I quit 0.0 warfare until such a time as it interests me again. I'll turn up if my alliance needs me, but I certainly don't do it for fun.
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.08.26 16:47:00 -
[46]
If they changed Starbases to This, then completely removed 'sovereignty' except for the little flag on the map showing who owns the station (nothing more than station name: owning corporation/alliance), then maybe, just maybe, we could get back to the point when things were fun...
Perhaps allow the anchoring of a handful of turret batteries around stations/outposts, but leave it at that. Then:
If you want to capture the station, great Shoot it up as we used to pre-Exodus (kick down front door, or guerrilla warfare against poorly defended systems)
If you want to hold the station, Better not over-stretch yourself, so you don't have enough pilots around to defend your stations. Invest in a few stationary defences to slow the enemy down.
At the same time you can still:
Cause economic damage through knocking out starbases if you so choose Raid systems to damage station services Build whatever the heck you like, where you like (starbase bits)
Holding territory then comes down to your pilots (plus the few anchorable batteries round your station), not POS's, not strontium timing. There is no magical 'sovereignty' making things invulnerable, or only allowing certain structures to be placed in system, or requiring endless 'POS bashing' Dreadnought-fests at moons, or rather crucially, lame POS spamming to claim territory.
Starbases themselves become the industrial platform/hanger array/moon mining bases/capital shipyards they should be, not 'magical' devices that control the system.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Montague Zooma
Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.26 17:44:00 -
[47]
There are some very well thought out, valid criticisms of the alliance warfare experience here.
I'd really like to hear CCP's rationalization for why these things are "fun".
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.26 17:53:00 -
[48]
Well re make this post on development forum and lets keep pressure. POlite, beign rude leads to nothing. Btu pressure. We pay them to give us a fun game, its their work and they need to do it better right now
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Imperius Blackheart
Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.26 18:04:00 -
[49]
Meh, I love alliance level warfare, its fun.
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Baaldor
Caldari Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.26 19:16:00 -
[50]
fleet battles..alliance warfare..its a friggin blast.
THE PRIVIOUS VIEWS AND STATEMENTS DO NOT REPRESENT AND OR SUPPORTED BY THE MANY VOICES IN MY HEAD. |
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SchirmerN
Amarr Danish Arms Association
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Posted - 2007.08.26 19:26:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Kagura Nikon Well re make this post on development forum and lets keep pressure. POlite, beign rude leads to nothing. Btu pressure. We pay them to give us a fun game, its their work and they need to do it better right now
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.26 19:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Baaldor fleet battles..alliance warfare..its a friggin blast.
yeap usually from a titan DD or desynced ships blowing up :P
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Dred'Pirate Jesus
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2007.08.26 20:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Malcanis Or: let's just have a couple more regions of NPC 0.0 space, with 4 or 5 entry points each instead of 1 or 2. No sovereignty there, so no POS spamming. Lots of scope for small alliances and corps to get a foothold into 0.0 and enjoy some small gang pew-pew.
I have no idea what the OP said but this reply right under the wall of text is made of Epic Win..
Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
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Doctor Fruitloop
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Posted - 2007.08.26 20:32:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Doctor Fruitloop on 26/08/2007 20:32:27
Originally by: Kagura NikonIf brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Ironic thats your sig as your on the anti-blob camp
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David Devant
Gallente Solarflare Heavy Industries Pure.
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Posted - 2007.08.26 20:42:00 -
[55]
List of things in eve that are not fun: (with notes of which are caused by the sovreignty system)
Mining Ice Mining (caused by sov) Killing POS (caused by sov) Killing POS guns/mods (caused by sov) Killing station services (caused by sov) Repping pos (caused by sov) Repping pos guns (caused by sov) Repping station services (caused by sov) Fueling pos (caused by sov) Carrier fuel runs (caused by sov)
Basically the whole system is boring. Even the changes to make it less boring are also boring. Was supposed to bring squad warfare back...but it takes 100 people 2 hours to kill a station service. As if your 15 man roaming gang is going to sit half a day doing that. Furthermore many alliances just outblob their enemies to keep capitals safe, so the goal in so many ops is NOT TO GET A FIGHT. Thats completely wrong. The entire sov system needs to be reworked so that it benefits both sides to seek a fight rather than avoid one, and minimize the time people spend doing boring tasks. |
Kirjava
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.26 21:47:00 -
[56]
It brings something called "morale" factor to the commanders of this gargantuan Risk game. If you say "we give you xyz and this is needed for the good of the alliance/community" essentialy use emotional blackmain and use you as fodder in some corps - why i left my last corp a year back.
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Akiman
Gallente Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:50:00 -
[57]
remove the lag ccp. That will shut us up fairly...
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