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Bizz Lizz
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Posted - 2007.08.26 22:59:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 26/08/2007 23:03:36
Originally by: Magazaki
- There is no such thing as "EM" damage. Period. There are "EM" pulses that wreak havoc on electronics (so conceivably shield generators but not armor on hull), and radiation can damage the DNA of living beings. But while Kinetic and Thermal energy in sufficient quantities can break stuff (and an explosion is just a kinetic shockwave usually caused by thermal energy) EM can do nothing of the sort.
A high energy laser pulse still an electromagnetical wave (EM). If I understand the mechanism right, when the laser hits some metal, there is an electromagnetical field that interacts with the electrons. The energy carries over. Then energy of those electrons is absorbed by the atom grid, heating it up (THERMAL). The area expands with high speed (KINETIC) and that's what we call an EXPLOSION.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.26 23:26:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Venkul Mul For al I know it is possible even in real life to seea a difference in kinetic and explosive damage (even if from a physic point of view that don't exist).
Exactly...from a physics point of view is all that matters as that is what is actually happening.
Not really. A reactive armor will work against a shaped charge but would have no effect against an undirected charge.
So while at the physics description level there is no differente, at the macro level of human perception a difference exist. As I was pointing before a defence that work against 1 kind of attack don't work against the other, so you can use a pratical differentiation in the damage.
BTW, railguns (those in experimentation today) aren't limited to a kinetic penetrator, as the projectile can easily transport an explosive charge. The difference is only in the system used to accelerate the project.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.26 23:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Del Narveux
Originally by: Bumbum George gallente really need explosive and em damage!!
so here it is, I am asking for it, so GIMMEEEEHHHH!!!
They have this actually, its called drones and racial drone bonuses. OP has a point, one of the problems with Amarr is theyre the only race that cant do all 4 damage types with their primary weapon.
Primary gallente weapon = hybrid guns Secondary gallente weapon = drones
Primary Amarr weapon = lasers Secondary Amarr weapon = drones or missiles (the have ships giving bonus to both)
So Amarr have approximately the same capacity of doing all 4 damage tipes that Gallente have.
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Spenz
Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.26 23:36:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Magazaki Actually, it is High EXPLOSIVE anti-tank, and heat propagated has nothing to do with it. It is just a kinetic warhead that explodes inside the tank. Its name does not imply it's "hot" or anything.
ACTUALLY ( and I hate to nit-pick but eh), HEAT does rely on heat to penetrate a target. You must be thinking about APHE, an armor piercing shell that had a small explosive charge inside. HEAT uses a shaped charge and copper to create a jet of superheated plasma. This jet melts through the armor and sprays inside the target. HEAT rounds do not rely on kinetic force. If they did, ERA and spaced armor wouldnt stop these rounds (both of which disrupt or prematurely detonate the plasma stream, preventing it from penetrating the armor).
If lasers were to get a new damage type, it would have to be explosive. I mean like someone pointed out, a high powered laser would create an explosive force when it vaporizes the target surface.
If I had an Alt I would probably post with it... |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:53:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Spenz
Originally by: Magazaki Actually, it is High EXPLOSIVE anti-tank, and heat propagated has nothing to do with it. It is just a kinetic warhead that explodes inside the tank. Its name does not imply it's "hot" or anything.
ACTUALLY ( and I hate to nit-pick but eh), HEAT does rely on heat to penetrate a target. You must be thinking about APHE, an armor piercing shell that had a small explosive charge inside. HEAT uses a shaped charge and copper to create a jet of superheated plasma. This jet melts through the armor and sprays inside the target. HEAT rounds do not rely on kinetic force. If they did, ERA and spaced armor wouldnt stop these rounds (both of which disrupt or prematurely detonate the plasma stream, preventing it from penetrating the armor.
Actually it is nothing to do with temperature and the penetration effect is purely kinetic,
Originally by: Wikipedia
Contrary to a widespread misconception, HEAT rounds do not depend in any way on thermal phenomena for their effectiveness. In particular, the shaped charge jets do not "melt their way" through armor. This confusion is merely an unfortunate side-effect of the name HEAT
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Patch86 "Particle Beam" technology is already in EVE- its called "blasters". A laser is, by definition, Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. The weapons Amarr use are called "beam laser" and "pulse laser", and are so most definitely (unless some Amarr engineer has decided to name his invention with a completely irrelevant name, relating to a technology no longer, apparently, in use) amplified light.
Thanks for the unneeded lesson in what a laser is. Not sure why you included that though. I am not arguing about what a laser is. Just saying it does not apply EM damage (it is all thermal). Yes it is an electromagnetic wave. Still thermal damage. A bullet is lead but you do not die from lead poisoning, you die from the kinetic imapact.
And I always thought Blasters were plasma guns. Essentially plastering you with superheated plasma which melts your ship. This is NOT the same as a particle beam gun. Particle Beam Weapons would use a particle accelerator to accelerate sub atomic particles that have mass (so not a photon) to near light speed.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:10:00 -
[37]
Well why does a antimatter hybrid charge do thermal and kinetic damage? it should be mainly explosive. And while we are doing the forum science thing lets not forget that explosive damage does both chemical energy damage via the exothermic chemical reactions taking place which ultimately does thermal damage and kinetic energy damage because of the shock waves compressive effects and and shrapnel.
Coming up with scientific reasons to explain anything to do with science fiction is a non brainer really as long as something sounds plausable it can make for good content, So why not give Amarr a "Graviton plaser" (Gravimetric plasma laser) that does kinetic and explosive damage?
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Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:12:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Patch86 on 27/08/2007 01:13:45
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: Patch86 "Particle Beam" technology is already in EVE- its called "blasters". A laser is, by definition, Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. The weapons Amarr use are called "beam laser" and "pulse laser", and are so most definitely (unless some Amarr engineer has decided to name his invention with a completely irrelevant name, relating to a technology no longer, apparently, in use) amplified light.
Thanks for the unneeded lesson in what a laser is. Not sure why you included that though. I am not arguing about what a laser is. Just saying it does not apply EM damage (it is all thermal). Yes it is an electromagnetic wave. Still thermal damage. A bullet is lead but you do not die from lead poisoning, you die from the kinetic imapact.
And I always thought Blasters were plasma guns. Essentially plastering you with superheated plasma which melts your ship. This is NOT the same as a particle beam gun. Particle Beam Weapons would use a particle accelerator to accelerate sub atomic particles that have mass (so not a photon) to near light speed.
All I meant to imply is that a "laser" cannot have kinetic energy, and Amarr use lasers. Particle beams may indeed involve kinetic energy, but why bring it up? Unless we suddenly start pretending that "pulse laser" is a sort of artistic euphemism for "particle beam", it's really neither here nor there.
A definition of a plasma beam by Wikipedia is:
Quote: A particle beam is an accelerated stream of charged particles or atoms (often moving at very near the speed of light) which may be directed by magnets and focused by electrostatic lenses, although they may also be self-focusing (see Pinch).
Well, a blaster (as I'm led to understand it) is (according to the item database):
Quote: Blasters fire magnetically contained balls of subatomic particles.
I'm not sure the "subatomic" bit is terribly accurate, judging by the ammo, but that doesn't matter according to Wikipedia anyway (since it can be regular particles in any case). And the "magnetically contained" could easily be a reference to the mentioned "pinching". The "balls" is a bit worrying, admittedly, but judging by the rest of EVE's physics...
Not a perfect match up for sure, but I always assumed that thats the closese RL physics matchup for blasters we're going to get. The whole "plasma gun" thing is really only a variation on a theme- apart from the speed difference (particle beams are meant to be "near the speed of light" while plasma guns make no such demands), they are essentially the same thing. --------
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Magazaki
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:14:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Originally by: Spenz
Originally by: Magazaki Actually, it is High EXPLOSIVE anti-tank, and heat propagated has nothing to do with it. It is just a kinetic warhead that explodes inside the tank. Its name does not imply it's "hot" or anything.
ACTUALLY ( and I hate to nit-pick but eh), HEAT does rely on heat to penetrate a target. You must be thinking about APHE, an armor piercing shell that had a small explosive charge inside. HEAT uses a shaped charge and copper to create a jet of superheated plasma. This jet melts through the armor and sprays inside the target. HEAT rounds do not rely on kinetic force. If they did, ERA and spaced armor wouldnt stop these rounds (both of which disrupt or prematurely detonate the plasma stream, preventing it from penetrating the armor.
Actually it is nothing to do with temperature and the penetration effect is purely kinetic,
Originally by: Wikipedia
Contrary to a widespread misconception, HEAT rounds do not depend in any way on thermal phenomena for their effectiveness. In particular, the shaped charge jets do not "melt their way" through armor. This confusion is merely an unfortunate side-effect of the name HEAT
A C T U A L L Y (), what he said.
Originally by: Spenz If lasers were to get a new damage type, it would have to be explosive. I mean like someone pointed out, a high powered laser would create an explosive force when it vaporizes the target surface.
You can bet it would not. Yeah it might "pop" if it vaporised too fast. But from that to make an actual EXPLOSION (i.e. create and actual DAMAGING shockwave instead of an audible pop effect of vaporising metal), you would need a lot, A LOT more than a laser beam. As much as you would need a lot more than a simple, conventional, kinetic projectile to create an explosion. You could no more create an explosion with a laser than you could with a bullet.
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:25:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Patch86 Yes, because focused light really does carry a lot of kinetic energy...
Explain how lasers are supposed to do EM damage?
the rapid change in current creates a magnetic field.... wait thats in your own ship....... ummmmmmmmmmm............ magic!!!!
yea tried comparing eve damage to real situations. its not pretty, and not worth it.
and *giggle* medium lasers on a bs *giggle*
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Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:03:00 -
[41]
Caldari and Minmatar has a wide range of damage types, whereas Amarr and Gallente does not, where's the logic?
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:09:00 -
[42]
Caldari only get the missiles but Minmatar have projectiles and missiles
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Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:14:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Sazkyen Lasers should do EM/Kinetic/Thermal in my opinion.
Kinetic? I didn't realize beams of light hit so hard.
Train for a different weapon system, or go with Khanid ships and missiles, or focus on killing what lasers kill well.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:17:00 -
[44]
Originally by: General Apocalypse You know that our Apoc can house all the Weapon Systems in EVE right ?
yes that's why it is one of the best battleships in it's own right. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room... |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in
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Posted - 2007.08.27 03:22:00 -
[45]
well my point will be that it can't be a lens. A lens could not transform light into a particle beam. you would need a hole new weapons system. a new gun type, or ship.
hell I bet the ammar don't have it because particle beams are used by the jove ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP need...more room... |
Admus
Mobius Construct Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.27 04:18:00 -
[46]
Anyone hear heard of a theoretical technology called "solar sails?" They supposedly used focused light (lasers) to propel an object fitted with a large sail apparatus.
Here is what Wikipedia has to say on the subject.
Interesting.
---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way." |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.27 04:23:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr Caldari only get the missiles but Minmatar have projectiles and missiles
You know, some Caldari DO actually use Railguns. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
UGWidowmaker
Caldari The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.08.27 07:19:00 -
[48]
in theory you would be able to make a beem of light wherin you can send an object. teleportation. so in THEORY you can teleport a bomb ( explosive damage ) thrue a amarr weapon. OMFG
I am the widowmaker stay tuned.
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Kastar
Memphis Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.27 07:47:00 -
[49]
Ladies, we need phasers & photon torpedoes, noting more nothing less Then I finally can name my Absolution "Defiant"
Seriously, while we can use sth... it's nearly impossible to kill angels eg, it's not that bad though. -----------------------------------------------
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.27 08:00:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Patch86 Seriously though, Amarr do need something to boost their lasers a little. But I don't think Kinetic is the answer (EVE already makes very little sense, physics wise). I'm all for the much suggested rebalancing of EM and Thermal- more Therm, less EM. Therm is a very respectable damage type (arguably the best multi purpose one).
Unfortunately Amarr, for consistency purposes, are stuck with EM damage because it's their racial damage type. Minmattar = explosive, Amarr = EM, Caldari = Kinetic, Thermal = Gallente. Now, a nice damage boost to lasers might make them a bit more fearsome.
It's never been explicitly stated that there are 'racial' damage types...at least not in the four years I've been here, unless you've heard something different in game from a dev/GM.
----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..." |
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J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.27 08:11:00 -
[51]
Edited by: J''Mkarr Soban on 27/08/2007 08:12:48
Originally by: MotherMoon
Originally by: General Apocalypse You know that our Apoc can house all the Weapon Systems in EVE right ?
yes that's why it is one of the best battleships in it's own right.
And the Typhoon, Maelstrom, Tempest, Mega, Hyperion, Scorpion, Raven, Rokh, Abaddon. In fact there are very few that can't fit them all, which are the Domi and the Armageddon. Some of them have a far greater range of fitting the weapon systems, too.
----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..." |
Magazaki
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Posted - 2007.08.27 12:03:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Magazaki on 27/08/2007 12:05:00
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Patch86 Seriously though, Amarr do need something to boost their lasers a little. But I don't think Kinetic is the answer (EVE already makes very little sense, physics wise). I'm all for the much suggested rebalancing of EM and Thermal- more Therm, less EM. Therm is a very respectable damage type (arguably the best multi purpose one).
Unfortunately Amarr, for consistency purposes, are stuck with EM damage because it's their racial damage type. Minmattar = explosive, Amarr = EM, Caldari = Kinetic, Thermal = Gallente.
It's never been explicitly stated that there are 'racial' damage types...at least not in the four years I've been here, unless you've heard something different in game from a dev/GM.
It doesn't need to for crying out loud. It's there for everyone to see. Each race has 2 racial favorite types that its ships mainly do, and their main enemy has these two types as his best resistances. Minnies do expl/kin and tank em/thermal, while amarr do em/thermal and tank explo/kin. Gallente do thermal/kin and tank kin/therm, while caldari do kin/therm and tank therm/kin. If you don't believe me, check again the weapons, the ships and take the result. Gallente do 50/50 kinetic/thermal with hybrids and add usually thermal with drones, while Caldari do 50/50 kinetic/thermal with hybrids and add usually kinetic with missiles. Amarr do em/thermal period with usually some more thermal or em from drones, or misiles, and minmatar do explosive/kinetic and usually add some different damage of their choice on top. T2 resistances reflect EXACTLY this situation. So is there that you need to be spelled out by a GM? Are you blind? It is like saying that in the 4 years I have not been playing eve, no GM actually said that the raven is a caldari ship or that autocannons are Minmatar weapons. It is obvious.
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Destiny Calling
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.27 12:06:00 -
[53]
I could wtfbbq all lvl 3 missions in my Absolution. However I was never fussed about going as far as lvl fours.
I do look forward to my Khandid missile ships.
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