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l3xz
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:46:00 -
[1]
Edited by: l3xz on 28/08/2007 12:54:03 I applaud CCP for trying to balance out the game, espeically the NOS nerf, I think this is great. However, they forgot to look at a couple other ships that are unbalanced to the rest of the game.
Unfortunatly, for all you minmatar lovers out there, I'm ragging on 2 of your favorite ships in particular. The Vagabond and Sabre. In my opinion any ship that can go faster than interceptors using identical mods, need to be nerfed.
The vagabond is an excelent example of this. The ship is too damm fast. I understnad it's need for speed, but come now, 10k+ m/s is too damm fast for a Heavy Assault Ship. Also the sabre, I know many sabre pilots that do 9k m/s or faster. This gives this little ship to great an advantage over larger ships.
Now I completly understand that certain ships are designed to best others 1 on 1 in PvP. Now this latest patch has nearly killed the Curse, Pilgrim, and Domi as far as how they have been flown. And I like the change those ships are going through, as they are no longer going to be the be all end all of most PvP engagements. However, speed ships are now going to fill that role. The only ships I know of that have a chance against a vagabond in 1 on 1 PvP is a huggin or rapier.
1: Is it fair that the same race has both the fastest ships in game as well as the ones that get bonus to statis webifier range?
2: Why do those ships need such an insain speed bonus as compared to the rest of the races.
Again, I can understand a vagabond being slightly faster than say a deimos, but there is a huge difference between those 2 ships as far as speed goes. I'm sure CCPs initial thought was for the vagabond to be an AB using ship as opposed to MWD.
So why not make the speed bonus only affect the AB on a vagabond? that would balance that ship out in my opinion. so instead of the current speed bonus per lvl of HAC, make it bonus to AB effectiveness per level of HAC amking an AB on the vagabond perform like a MWD would for any other ship. the vagabond would still have a good advantage against other gunboats out there as it would still be faster, and it wouldn't get the sig radius hit that it currently gets from the MWD. I know many of you might not like this idea, but in all fairness, I think it would be a fair compromise.
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Zathuraa
Applied Cyronics
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:48:00 -
[2]
WALLOFTEXT = I cba to read
---------- Dregann Director of Media Control |
Steini OFSI
Gallente Minigame
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:48:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Zathuraa WALLOFTEXT = I cba to read
QFT
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xHalcyonx
Amarr Lucian Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:55:00 -
[4]
Originally by: l3xz The Vagabond and Sabre.
Leave these ships alone. Nerf Pirate Implants. There is no way to reach those 10km speeds reasonably without a Domi MWD + LG Snakes + 3% or 5% or 8% Speed Hardwirings. ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn |
River Myst
The Littlest Hobos Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:59:00 -
[5]
Minmatar have always been the fastest hit-and-run style of ships since Beta. The kind of speeds you mentioned are only acheivable with rigs, Snakes and Gistii MWDs, which hurt to lose!
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Sauromugue
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Posted - 2007.08.28 12:59:00 -
[6]
Oh for God's sake keep it to one ****ing THREAD.
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Great Artista
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:01:00 -
[7]
Originally by: River Myst Minmatar have always been the fastest hit-and-run style of ships since Beta. The kind of speeds you mentioned are only acheivable with rigs, Snakes and Gistii MWDs, which hurt to lose!
With "hurt to lose" he means OUCTHSZ!!1 _______
◕◡◕ Space perverts and forum warriors united. [PERVS]
My opinions rather rarely represent my corp, not to mention my alliance hihihi... |
tyanid
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:05:00 -
[8]
How funny you say this now that the deimos got a speed buff, i have seem them going around 9k/s in the test server already , and you fail to explain that a vaga going 5k/s+ will fail to damage anything due to gun tracking but other ships like the isthar can still inflict 400+ DPS at the same or higher speed without dropping a single m/s.
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Damned Force
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:06:00 -
[9]
u can have the speed of an inty without snakes. with rigs? yes, but the drake had rigs too if everyone cryed for nerf, and the drake had almost no dps. Yes, the Vaga is better than other ships in the same class, thats why almost in every roaming gangs every minm pilot use a vaga if he can fly
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Draahk Chimera
Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:10:00 -
[10]
Going 10km/s in a vaga require the following: Hi grade snake set (=2 billion), Tech 2 rigs and gistii mwd (=500m). In short, vagas that go that fast have a 2.6b invenstement behind them (yes I can do math I included the cost of the ship). If you spend that on your favorite ship im sure it will be equally good in 1 vs 1. For example, if you like nos, why not buy a Bhaalogorn and fit it with a -90% web and a few faction nosses and neuts. Opti+ falloff on a vaga is around 22km so even with "normal" named nosses/neuts he will be screwed.
Sidenote: t2 fitted vaga with no implants or gangbonus but with maxed skills do around 4k same with sabre.
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Noxious IV
Militaris
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:13:00 -
[11]
@ the OP, post with your main
Regarding AB's on Vaga - STFU, Epic fail
These speeds you mention at a waste as you have no damage when orbiting that fast. You can't track effectivley and shoot as you just won't hit.
The problem isn't the ships, its the 500mil+ mods on the ship and 3-5 bil on implants and hardwiring. These make the ships go sickingly fast :) This is reasonably fair cause u loose these then it really hurts your wallet.
Can ppl please stop asking for nerf's. I am actually hating you as much as Macro's.
Finally, how many of you actually see these 10km vaga's. I rarely see them and i live in low sec / 0.0? Sure you may see the odd 1 or 2 but the OP gives impression there as common an IBIS's.
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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:17:00 -
[12]
Isk shall and will never be used as a balance... - I'm a nice guy!!
MOA is NOT UGLY!!! It's A FREAK SHOW!!!! |
Jai Cee
Quam Singulari M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:30:00 -
[13]
Lets look at the speed of a Sabre. Using my skills I've tried out some fits:
1MN MWD 2 + 2 OD2 = 4777m/s Gistii MWD + 2 OD2 + 2 Poly rigs = 5567m/s 1MN MWD 2 + 2 OD2 + 2 Poly rigs = 6289m/s Gistii MWD + 2 OD2 + 2 Poly rigs = 7397m/s
In comparison lets look at a crow since "any ship that can go faster than interceptors using identical mods, need to be nerfed":
1MN MWD 2 + 3 OD2 = 6336m/s Gistii MWD + 3 OD2 = 7446m/s 1MN MWD 2 + 3 OD2 + 2 Poly rigs = 8449m/s Gistii MWD + 3 OD2 + 2 Poly rigs = 9986m/s
This is without implants but they would only increase the differences. As you can see the Sabre isn't faster than a similarly fitted interceptor, you can even make the slow taranis go faster than one if you like and the crow is miles ahead. To me it looks like rigs are out of whack, polycarbon rigs give a much greater boost than faction so before you whine on the forums run some numbers.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:41:00 -
[14]
As much as I love the Sabre it is in a complete class of its own in comparison to the other 3 interdictors. There is simpily no competition from them, even after Khanid II. The speed business is a problem across the board, not just with minmatar ships.
Something needs to change in that regard.
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Corphus
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:43:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Corphus on 28/08/2007 13:45:25
Originally by: l3xz Edited by: l3xz on 28/08/2007 12:54:03 2: Why do those ships need such an insain speed bonus as compared to the rest of the races.
Again, I can understand a vagabond being slightly faster than say a deimos, but there is a huge difference between those 2 ships as far as speed goes. I'm sure CCPs initial thought was for the vagabond to be an AB using ship as opposed to MWD.
So why not make the speed bonus only affect the AB on a vagabond? that would balance that ship out in my opinion. so instead of the current speed bonus per lvl of HAC, make it bonus to AB effectiveness per level of HAC amking an AB on the vagabond perform like a MWD would for any other ship. the vagabond would still have a good advantage against other gunboats out there as it would still be faster, and it wouldn't get the sig radius hit that it currently gets from the MWD. I know many of you might not like this idea, but in all fairness, I think it would be a fair compromise.
1st: the vaga has no bonus to ab/mwd effectivness nor a bonus for hac skill level. it has only a 5% base speed bonus on the ship per cruiser skill lvl which is also existant on the stabber tI class version.
2nd: m8 u fail to understand that insane speeds do not help you killing an opponent by means of dps. the vagabond is one of the lowest dps hacs available. additionally it has almost no active tanking abilities compared to other hacs. the vagabonds speed is used for getting in range of ur target fast and dictate the range so u dont get webbed and shredded by the enemy fire. the vagabonds speed is its lifeinsurance.
atm there a lot of ships similar to vagabonds. every interceptor is capable of reaching far over 10km/s with a load of investment in rigs and implants. and even than these ships cant run their mwd forever since its a very cap consuming way of operating ur ship.
i can understand that ur angry that u got defeated by an ship 10 times faster than u but it deffo isnt the fault of ccp and false gamebalance. the stabber and the vagabond such as the deimos and thorax are only viable ships reaching their high speeds using mwd. they are both closerange ships and rely on rangedictation. u have to live with that.
imo the biggest problem here isnt the vagabonds capability to reach its speed (which is around 5km/s using only most of your lowslots, rigs and top skills). the problem lies within the imense boost u get from pirate implants. combined with expensive faction equipment and the according gangwarfare bonuses from an friendly commandship ull be able reaching ur 11km/s.
the vagabond is fine reaching its speed. it cant hit u while flying that fast and it has awful dmg since ull use at least 3 of ur 5 lows for speed modules aswell as 2 rigs (50mil a piece) to get u over the 5km/s. it also thins out its cap using an mwd which cuts 25% off capacitor capacity making it the hac with the lowest cap capacity (no tanking for u lil vaga). the dmg with this setup is roughly about 200dps. this is less than i reach with my taranis interceptor which is also able to reach over 5km/s (suprise)
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.28 13:49:00 -
[16]
Originally by: welsh wizard As much as I love the Sabre it is in a complete class of its own in comparison to the other 3 interdictors. There is simpily no competition from them, even after Khanid II. The speed business is a problem across the board, not just with minmatar ships.
Something needs to change in that regard.
This.
I hoped that maybe new heretic will be at least good match for sabre, but it doesn't have a chance(6 launchers, 20% more mass, ... )
-------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
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King Hopy
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Posted - 2007.08.28 14:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: l3xz
Again, I can understand a vagabond being slightly faster than say a deimos, but there is a huge difference between those 2 ships as far as speed goes. I'm sure CCPs initial thought was for the vagabond to be an AB using ship as opposed to MWD.
Then again the deimos should do only slightly more dps than a vaga. Therefore I suggest that the drone bay of deimos will be removed and its second dmg bonus will be changed into a bonus for small hybrids only. This would make the deimos very effective using small hybrid turrets.
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Reto
The Last Resort
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Posted - 2007.08.29 11:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: King Hopy
Originally by: l3xz
Again, I can understand a vagabond being slightly faster than say a deimos, but there is a huge difference between those 2 ships as far as speed goes. I'm sure CCPs initial thought was for the vagabond to be an AB using ship as opposed to MWD.
Then again the deimos should do only slightly more dps than a vaga. Therefore I suggest that the drone bay of deimos will be removed and its second dmg bonus will be changed into a bonus for small hybrids only. This would make the deimos very effective using small hybrid turrets.
sarcasm. (hopefully)
Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
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twit brent
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.08.29 12:08:00 -
[19]
EVE Should never be blanced arround isk like that.
You say that its fair because the cost of the implants, but the thing that makes the implants so expensive is their ubberness.
If say talisman implants were effective as snakes their price would rocket up to the price of snakes, then everyone would say it doesnt matter that they were overpowered because they are expensive.
It just doesnt work.
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SlaineMor
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.08.30 13:14:00 -
[20]
As long as the Khanid changes makes the heretic more popular and hopefully the Sabre will stop costing 3x more than the other dictors! (coz personally I good at loosing them!)
Eat my Rusty Bullethole! |
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Dominique Vasilkovsky
Techmart Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.30 13:50:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Jai Cee Gistii MWD + 2 OD2 + 2 Poly rigs = 5567m/s
Cool, where did you get that MWD?
Signature approved by Eldo |
Stuart Price
Caldari Havoc Inc
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Posted - 2007.08.30 13:50:00 -
[22]
Eagle.
5th turret.
Waiting ages now.
Life ain't fair.
Nobody ever said it would be.
Deal with it. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier" |
MrTripps
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.30 14:06:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Noxious IV Finally, how many of you actually see these 10km vaga's.
Just about every time I play. Kill their drones hit them with a damp and they like kittens. Another nerf is not needed.
Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli |
Tomsudy
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.30 14:14:00 -
[24]
Originally by: l3xz Edited by: l3xz on 28/08/2007 12:54:03 I applaud CCP for trying to balance out the game, espeically the NOS nerf, I think this is great. However, they forgot to look at a couple other ships that are unbalanced to the rest of the game.
Unfortunatly, for all you minmatar lovers out there, I'm ragging on 2 of your favorite ships in particular. The Vagabond and Sabre. In my opinion any ship that can go faster than interceptors using identical mods, need to be nerfed.
The vagabond is an excelent example of this. The ship is too damm fast. I understnad it's need for speed, but come now, 10k+ m/s is too damm fast for a Heavy Assault Ship. Also the sabre, I know many sabre pilots that do 9k m/s or faster. This gives this little ship to great an advantage over larger ships.
Now I completly understand that certain ships are designed to best others 1 on 1 in PvP. Now this latest patch has nearly killed the Curse, Pilgrim, and Domi as far as how they have been flown. And I like the change those ships are going through, as they are no longer going to be the be all end all of most PvP engagements. However, speed ships are now going to fill that role. The only ships I know of that have a chance against a vagabond in 1 on 1 PvP is a huggin or rapier.
1: Is it fair that the same race has both the fastest ships in game as well as the ones that get bonus to statis webifier range?
2: Why do those ships need such an insain speed bonus as compared to the rest of the races.
Again, I can understand a vagabond being slightly faster than say a deimos, but there is a huge difference between those 2 ships as far as speed goes. I'm sure CCPs initial thought was for the vagabond to be an AB using ship as opposed to MWD.
So why not make the speed bonus only affect the AB on a vagabond? that would balance that ship out in my opinion. so instead of the current speed bonus per lvl of HAC, make it bonus to AB effectiveness per level of HAC amking an AB on the vagabond perform like a MWD would for any other ship. the vagabond would still have a good advantage against other gunboats out there as it would still be faster, and it wouldn't get the sig radius hit that it currently gets from the MWD. I know many of you might not like this idea, but in all fairness, I think it would be a fair compromise.
The vaga and sabre are not unbalanced
if you want to spend over a bil to make em go fast then imo they should go fast
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