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Dreadpilot Roberts
New Balkan Mafia Circle 0f Two
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Posted - 2007.08.30 18:20:00 -
[1]
I mean this ship is just goddamn incredible. It's got this amazing ability that no other recon or ship does.
When it comes into the battle-field all the hostiles just remain stunned for 10 seconds, and then they start laughing so hard that they forget they were in a fight and start dying one by one.
How better way to illustrate this than with an xample:
Big blobs battle it out ( one of them is outnumbered 2:1 )
Pilgrim decloaks ...
All the hostile players:
Hostile gang chat:
Hostile no.1: "WTF man look ... a pilgrim, is anyone still using that ship zomg"
Hostile no.2 "Look man he's trying to get in range, going 1.5km/sec, to fire his 2 friggin med neuts, LMAO "
All the hostiles laughing
- All hostiles stopped paying attention to game and start to make jokes about the pilgrim on gang chat -
Blob that was outnumbered 2:1 now kills each one of its enemies one by one
Local channel:
Blue guy:
Guys check ur screens ... u've all been podded
Hostile no.3:
WTF
Hostile no.4
ZOMG
-------- END OF EXAMPLE --------
Now please CCP do something about this fast, nerf this goddamn recon.
Change its current bonuses to 10% to strip-mining laser yield per recon ships skill level and 10% to drone hitpoints and mining yield per amarr cruiser lvl
( to encourage pilgrim pilots not to take this monster on the battlefield and to prevent anything like the example I illustrated this above from happening ).
Yes I am Amarr and I fly recon ... but I also have a sense of humour left even the Pilgrim got nerfed into nothingness after the last patch.
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Valandril
Caldari Resurrection R i s e
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Posted - 2007.08.30 18:24:00 -
[2]
Do u want some cheese witht that whine ? ---
Battlecarriers ! |
Borasao
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Posted - 2007.08.30 18:25:00 -
[3]
I want my 1m30s back.
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Saint Lazarus
C R Y O
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Posted - 2007.08.30 18:49:00 -
[4]
yeah that drone bonus and neut bonus are useless....
It still packs more punch than any other recon and it could probably insta kill any cruisers cap, and just drone it to death gee thats real useless...
Least I know anyone still left in a Pilgrim isnt an idiot so I'll still be keeping away from'em
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Zixxa
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Posted - 2007.08.30 19:05:00 -
[5]
Feel the pain. Rook and Falcon had being killed long time ago. But I did not hear your crying about... --------------------------------- Hint 1: Train for Mega, not for Rokh Hint 2: Abaddon is uber fleet BS. R.I.P. <Torpedo Raven> R.I.P. <ECM> R.I.P. <Drake> R.I.P. Nosferatu R.I.P. <Curse> and < |
achoura
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Posted - 2007.08.30 20:33:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Borasao I want my 1m30s back.
/Seconded
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.30 20:37:00 -
[7]
Funny, I like my Pilgrim. Of course, I don't expect it to be a silly solopwnmobile either...
Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility! |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.30 21:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Funny, I like my Pilgrim. Of course, I don't expect it to be a silly solopwnmobile either...
So where are you using it? In gangs? Yes, it is so terribly useful with its 12k range and having the most effective EW of all recons.
Have you even ever flown that ship?
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Gladiator Jonny
Repo Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.30 22:33:00 -
[9]
Pilgrim is for solo, finding targets unsuspecting and slowly slaughtering them, perfect for 0.0 ratters.
If you fly a pilgrim in a gang your stupid as hell, Curse > pilgrim, unless your all in a Cloaked force recon gang.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.30 22:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Leandro Salazar Funny, I like my Pilgrim. Of course, I don't expect it to be a silly solopwnmobile either...
So where are you using it? In gangs? Yes, it is so terribly useful with its 12k range and having the most effective EW of all recons.
Have you even ever flown that ship?
The damage dealer/tank destroyer in all cloak gangs, Angel ratting, Exploration, hauler-ganking in empire wars, and heaven forbid, actual force recon work (as in probe something and tackle/tank it till help arrives. Not that probing something works very well with everyone in 0.0 having a cloak, but still, in theory...)
Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility! |
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.31 11:16:00 -
[11]
In recon gangs you don't need it. A rapier and arazu do together around 400-500 dps, that is plenty to break target tanks.
NPCing/exploration is not really a vital use of these ships.
Hauler-ganking can be done far FAR better by rapiers.
And probing/tackling can be done far better by rapiers or arazus as well.
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.31 11:33:00 -
[12]
I like new pilgrim... i just reprocess them and sell t2 components in jita.
-------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.31 11:38:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 31/08/2007 11:38:58
Originally by: Aramendel In recon gangs you don't need it. A rapier and arazu do together around 400-500 dps, that is plenty to break target tanks.
NPCing/exploration is not really a vital use of these ships.
Hauler-ganking can be done far FAR better by rapiers.
And probing/tackling can be done far better by rapiers or arazus as well.
1. You can break many tanks with that, but it will take very long to kill the ship. A Pilgrim would reduce that time by a huge amount. Which can be very critical if the target has buddies nearby.
2. Against Angels at least it works fine. And for exploration it really is the only ship that can viably do all in one. Cloak, probe and clear the site. Perfect for people like me who do not enjoy flying through 0.0 in a large ship without a covert cloak.
3. Better dps = better hauler ganking. And you sure don't want to tell me the rapier (or any other force recon for that matter) has better dps than the pilgrim?
4. True enough, but the pilgrim can still do it adequately. If the target has fofs or somehow sticks his drones onto you, it actually does better because of the better HP tank.
Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility! |
Sinder Ohm
Infinite Improbability Inc Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.31 11:40:00 -
[14]
See Pilgrims dont suck
Originally by: Karanth Wimps play empire. Real men play in 0.0. Hardcore masochists live out in drone space.
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.31 14:07:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar 1. You can break many tanks with that, but it will take very long to kill the ship. A Pilgrim would reduce that time by a huge amount. Which can be very critical if the target has buddies nearby.
Very long time? Not really. Few ships have a as strong tank when NPCing, and if they are most likely either passively shieldtanked or injector fuelled, both cases where the pilgrim is pretty useless.
Quote: 2. Against Angels at least it works fine. And for exploration it really is the only ship that can viably do all in one. Cloak, probe and clear the site. Perfect for people like me who do not enjoy flying through 0.0 in a large ship without a covert cloak.
Exept, again, it is meaningless here. Eve is not balanced for NPCing.
Quote: 3. Better dps = better hauler ganking. And you sure don't want to tell me the rapier (or any other force recon for that matter) has better dps than the pilgrim?
Are you seriously claiming that you need dps for hauler ganking? I mean, *seriously*? A *falcon* has enough dps to gank haulers.
What you need for hauler ganking being able to tackle the things. A rapier or arazu can do that far far better.
Quote: 4. True enough, but the pilgrim can still do it adequately. If the target has fofs or somehow sticks his drones onto you, it actually does better because of the better HP tank.
FoFs can be evaded for quite some time with good drone management. Been there, done it. Drones can be tanked with a LSE2 or a simple speedtank for long enough easily as well.
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Grimpak
Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.31 15:51:00 -
[16]
general breakdown of these threads:
OP -> "OMFG PILGRIM SUCKS!"
guy1 <retort> guy2 <counter-retort> guy1 "NU-HUH! here's why: <posts an intelligent answer>" guy3 "this is why X,Y or Z doesn't suck" guy2 <counters guy 1 argument> guy4 "STFU IT WAS NEEDED FFS!" guy2 "NO" guy4 "NO U!" guy5 <posts a general breakdown of these threads>
but now going seriously:
last time I checked, recons were supposed to be anti-support support ships and not main damage dealers.
Originally by: Aramendel In recon gangs you don't need it. A rapier and arazu do together around 400-500 dps, that is plenty to break target tanks.
NPCing/exploration is not really a vital use of these ships.
Hauler-ganking can be done far FAR better by rapiers.
And probing/tackling can be done far better by rapiers or arazus as well.
Also last time I checked the pilgrim is the force recon that dishes more damage from all 4 ships
a whooping 224 dps alone from 5 T2 hammerheads, while the rapier and the arazu need to fit hi-tier guns wich gimps the ship's grid AND cpu, and needs to be in sub 10km ranges (only setups that dished MORE than half of pilgrim's dps was a neutron arazu with void with 171 dps and a 425mm AC rapier with hail with 137 dps. long range ones they had to go for T2 short range ammo just to break the 100dps barrier, oh and the falcon is irrelevant here).
400-500 dps? only if you fit dmg mods in the (already low-slotted gimped) arazu and rapier, or slap T2 hammerheads in their drone bays (four for each one), wich tbh is a waste since I can slap better drones for their role in here.
point is: these are not friggin' solo ships. don't use them like that. only usage solo I can see for these ships is cloaking griefing and popping lonely haulers.
oh and TD's are not that bad, unless you're meeting ravens. ---
truth about EVE: Quote: "Guns are fine, boost players"
Quote: "Players are fine, boost guns"
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Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:16:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2007 16:26:12 The pilgrim IS a solo ship. Or do you think a ship with a 12k nosrange is good in gang combat? Hell, even the freaking 2nd dev blog about the 2.2 changes states that it is no good gang ship.
Originally by: CCP Fendahl ...The Curse still performs quite well in small gangs, but the Pilgrim does not...
So can we kindly stop the "OMG they are no soloships" BS? This is correct for most recons, but not for the pilgrim. Because it is about as good for gang support as the falcon is for soloing.
And you ignore drones for dps. 3 med, 2 light thermal drones do 132 dps. 3 200mm rails with (non-faction) AM and no damagemods deal 95 dps on the arazu. 110 with faction ammo. That is more dps than the pilgrim with 5 hammer2. With an optimal of 13.5k.
No, for a recon tagteam there arenot "more efficient" uses of the dronebay. They do not need more EW then, but more dps.
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Dionisius
Gallente The School of Fine Art
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:35:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 31/08/2007 16:26:12 The pilgrim IS a solo ship. Or do you think a ship with a 12k nosrange is good in gang combat? Hell, even the freaking 2nd dev blog about the 2.2 changes states that it is no good gang ship.
Originally by: CCP Fendahl ...The Curse still performs quite well in small gangs, but the Pilgrim does not...
So can we kindly stop the "OMG they are no soloships" BS? This is correct for most recons, but not for the pilgrim. Because it is about as good for gang support as the falcon is for soloing.
And you ignore drones for dps. 3 med, 2 light thermal drones do 132 dps. 3 200mm rails with (non-faction) AM and no damagemods deal 95 dps on the arazu. 110 with faction ammo. That is more dps than the pilgrim with 5 hammer2. With an optimal of 13.5k.
No, for a recon tagteam there arenot "more efficient" uses of the dronebay. They do not need more EW then, but more dps.
Good luck there with your "solo" ship. _______________________
Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:45:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Dionisius Good luck there with your "solo" ship.
To repeat myself:
Either it is meant for soloing or it needs a major redesign to be of equal use for gangs as the other force recons.
It needs fixes, no matter how you look at it.
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Dionisius
Gallente The School of Fine Art
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Dionisius Good luck there with your "solo" ship.
To repeat myself:
Either it is meant for soloing or it needs a major redesign to be of equal use for gangs as the other force recons.
It needs fixes, no matter how you look at it.
Agreed, the NOS nerf killed these two recons, Pilgrim and Curse, big time. _______________________
Originally by: Splagada Edited by: Splagada on 21/06/2007 13:51:39 in eve you can break their windows, take over the house, and throw the children in the fire. |
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2007.08.31 16:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sinder Ohm See Pilgrims dont suck
they dont suck cos they suck the most?
ohnoes ive gone cross eyed
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:26:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 31/08/2007 17:29:04 Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 31/08/2007 17:26:37
Originally by: Aramendel Very long time? Not really. Few ships have a as strong tank when NPCing, and if they are most likely either passively shieldtanked or injector fuelled, both cases where the pilgrim is pretty useless.
I don't know how silly the average 0.0 ratter is, but my ratting ships do have decent tanks and a mandatory damage control. I think 50K effective HP is a reasonable assumption for any reasonably fit battleship. Assuming a 142 eff.hp/sec tank (single LAR2 with 50% resists), the 500 dps gang would need 142 secs to kill it. A Pilgrim with 300 dps would cut that down to 76 secs, and even more if it manages to wreck his cap. Even just forcing his injector to reload will help, and it might just force his hardeners to shutdown for a while as well. I consider this a decent contribution.
As for hauler ganking, some of them are tanked too, and at least I also want to be quick about it to avoid possible nearby buddies stopping me.
If you assume that your victim will never get help and you have all the time in the world, yes the other recons do better. But I believe in Murphy and as such want to kill as fast as possible and gtfo. And for that the Pilgrim is the best force recon.
I agree that TDs are worthless junk and that bonus should be something more useful (neut range? neut cap use?), but the pilgrim is still a decent ship imho, despite one unused bonus (I never fit TDs on mine).
Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility! |
Aramendel
Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.31 17:46:00 -
[23]
You vastely underestimate the dps of the other force recons. An arazu with 200mm rails, faction AM, 2 damagemods (which isn't really an unrealistic setup for a force recon gang) and 3 med, 2 light drones does 295 dps.
DPS wise there isn't really that much of a difference.
And for general support I would have *much* rather an arazu which can damp 2 BS into oblivion or a rapier which can stop 2-3 targets in their tracks than a pilgrim with nosses. Those are in the end only a luxuary, when you *really* need performance the other recons do more.
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Shevar
Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.08.31 18:06:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Grimpak
last time I checked, recons were supposed to be anti-support support ships and not main damage dealers.
Only the minmatar/gallente ones are used to tackle support craft in larger groups.
Quote: Also last time I checked the pilgrim is the force recon that dishes more damage from all 4 ships
If that was the case then they ought to have nerfed it's DPS. What they did was basicly destroying it's ability to tank. This while already the curse and the pilgrim were by far the worst recons in terms of fleet support.
The curse and the Pilgrim were able of tanking and nossing/cap killing both which they did worse then a battleship. While the other recons had either uber range webbing/scrambling that no other ship can do or being the best ECM boats around in the universe.
Quote: a whooping 224 dps alone from 5 T2 hammerheads, while the rapier and the arazu need to fit hi-tier guns wich gimps the ship's grid AND cpu, and needs to be in sub 10km ranges (only setups that dished MORE than half of pilgrim's dps was a neutron arazu with void with 171 dps and a 425mm AC rapier with hail with 137 dps. long range ones they had to go for T2 short range ammo just to break the 100dps barrier, oh and the falcon is irrelevant here).
400-500 dps? only if you fit dmg mods in the (already low-slotted gimped) arazu and rapier, or slap T2 hammerheads in their drone bays (four for each one), wich tbh is a waste since I can slap better drones for their role in here.
Damage is irrelevant for every Recon out there besides the amarr ones. Yes prepatch they were better solo because of it, but in a gang of more then 3 ships any other recon/force recon is preferable above the curse/pilgrim.
That being said to reach 400 or 500 DPS you needed to fit guns/launchers. That means no nos hence the nos nerf had no effect on this. So I don't understand why you think the nos nerf was even relevant for your argument.
Quote: point is: these are not friggin' solo ships. don't use them like that. only usage solo I can see for these ships is cloaking griefing and popping lonely haulers.
oh and TD's are not that bad, unless you're meeting ravens.
Point is solo was the only thing amarr recons did well. If they made the curse/pilgrim usable in more fleet situations then it wouldn't have been a problem.
Yes TD's are THAT bad, the range on your cap modules is so short you are in web range. When you are webbed TD's in no way will save your ship. Not to mention it's useless in a plethora of engagements like sniperfests since you can't actually disable a ship in such a case as almost any other recon can.
--- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.31 21:28:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Ione Hunt on 31/08/2007 21:34:29 So posting in the first "OMGHAX Pilgrim/Curse NERFFFF, WAHAHAHAAAAAAA" thread wasn't enough? You had to create a new thread?
Stupid idea! If we learned something from the Deimos, it's that you need over 50 pages of posts in a SINGLE thread before anything happens. If you start new threads about the same subject every other day you'll never get what you want
Seriously though...the Pilgrim will still kill cruiser/BC sized targets because it can STILL nuke their cap. People complaining that they can't solo BS anymore need to get a grip and learn to live with the fact that the recons' role isn't to be solo-BS-PWN-mobiles
Oh, and you don't like TD? Nobody's stopping you from fitting damps...they still work just fine, even without bonus. _______________
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Torothin
Amarr Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.08.31 23:07:00 -
[26]
Pilgrim = Best Solo ship hands down.
Curse: Who wouldn't want this in a fleet a nano curse with nosf bonus and extra mids for ew is almost any ships worst nightmare. I have several times just wreaked havoc zooming around killing support. Also with decent sized gangs the curse is the silent killer of the gang because it takes away a ships cap unabling them to rep and it doesn't show up on the kill mails. If it did my curse would be ontop of the mails everytime.
The point is even after the nerf Amarr Recons are some of the best pvp ships to fly ingame. You can argue this and argue that but range bonus' and transfer amnt bonus' on nuets and nosf do and always will be a pain to fight against.
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem
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Posted - 2007.08.31 23:20:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Dionisius
Originally by: Aramendel
Originally by: Dionisius Good luck there with your "solo" ship.
To repeat myself:
Either it is meant for soloing or it needs a major redesign to be of equal use for gangs as the other force recons.
It needs fixes, no matter how you look at it.
Agreed, the NOS nerf killed these two recons, Pilgrim and Curse, big time.
I can do it a lovely gravestone, right next to that of the Falcon and Rook.
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