reported by: ISD Eumaios Thelousses | 2012.01.18 01:30:21
New Eden - A group of capsuleers, led by Krissada, are attempting to disrupt the GÇ£ISK farmingGÇ¥ currently occurring at Sansha Incursion sites. They are planning to destroy Sansha motherships as soon as they arrive through their wormholes and in doing so hope to cut back the amount of ISK earned by capsuleers who attend the incursions simply to collect bounties on the lesser Sansha forces in the area.

Krissada is apparently aggrieved that "bears" are able to "farm" for ISK in high-sec Incursions with little risk as long as they do not destroy the Sansha mothership. This, to her, is a blatant misuse of CONCORD's reward system and she is focused on stopping what she believes is an "ISK faucet". Disgruntled with how Incursions are fought she revealed her belief that "Sansha forces appear to be infinite, as is the depth of CONCORD's wallet".

Krissada's plan is to destroy the Sansha motherships as soon as possible which will hopefully cause the immediate withdrawal of Sansha forces and prevent further bounties being collected by "Incursion Bears". She hopes to force those wanting to make ISK from Incursions into low-sec and thus ensuring when Sansha forces arrive in high-sec they are dealt with quickly by capsuleers who want to see victory rather than reward.

Giving firm backing to Krissada, CSM member Darius III seemed to agree that high-sec Incursions are no longer about defeating Sansha's Nation but more about what can be earned: GÇ£The sites pay too much with almost no risk.GÇ¥

HardinSalvor, an Incursion community leader, reflected on how things have changed due to the lure of ISK: GÇ£Once the influence dropped low enough for the mom to spawn, people would rush to kill it. Through some diplomacy, a status quo was created where we avoid killing the mom as long as possible.GÇ¥

Some questionable math by community leaders sees them believing that an incredible 621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions. If the numbers are accurate, it may be no surprise that a prominent Fleet Commander from the BTL Incursion channel is alleged to have bribed Darius III with 500 million ISK to not destroy a mothership during an Incursion.

Hate to break it to you guys but Incursions were always meant to encourage this kind of game play. Right from the beginning we were told that people could come into an Incursion and work for or against the other players fighting the Sansha threat. So...sandbox working as intended. Your idea to prevent said player from playing his way is what breaks the sandbox...not the other way around. If you don't like it...get a bigger force of people than them and kill them before they ruin your fun. Simple as that.

Did you know that if you wrap your hard drive in two layers of tinfoil, it will prevent your Drake from getting nerfed?

I've never collected moon goo but I hear the rewards are ridiculous, good on whoever is stopping that... wait that'd be nobody.

IT'S NOT A NERF, it's balancing.

AFAIK, Vanguards are the "low-level" sites associated with Incursions, followed by Assaults and then the HQ, why should Vanguards be where all of the ISK is?

You would think that the "higher-level" sites would provide a better payout, I mean, am I just crazy or does that make sense to anyone else too?

Read the minutes before complaining for fucks sake

Darius III wasn't he a Goon?

For those of you who do not bother to read the news on your character selection page. CCP are now actively supporting anything other richer, far more powerful players do in order to get Highsec dwellers into lowsec.

I stopped reading there and left the thread satisfied that CCP has finally found their way.

Read the minutes before complaining for fucks sake

The thread is about my unfounded opinion that CCP is supporting player controlled "nerfs" on Incursions because they don't want to bother

Yeah.... rigth...
CCP dont like the word "nerf".... So they call it "balancing".

They removed allmost all drones from super-carriers (a droneship)
and called it "rebalancing"

I was in a van fleet the other night and we were laughing our asses off at BS shutting down every NCO that spawned.

CCP are now actively supporting anything other richer, far more powerful players do in order to get Highsec dwellers into lowsec. The news is veiled as an almost allegoric mission by Krissada, which CCP are strutting as "the right stuff".

[snip]

Way to go CCP, let's see what else you can come up with to chase players out of Eve.

Fix things, stop breaking the game by supporting such idiocy.

The griefing of Incuribears via murdering the Mom site makes me excited in my ways, some dirty. I fully support all services that troll highsec incursions.

Tech moons do have a risk/reward factor in that alliances battle for control over these moons; incursions, on the other hand, present no risk to the incursion-runners except possibly a fail logistics pilot ruining it for everyone.

Nerf Tech Moons....now that would produce a tital wave of tears on the forums, although they should be evenly distrubuted threw out null i believe. Not nerfed.

Here we go another type of game play that everyone enjoys doing gets good isk so they can afford those nice things and can go up against the bitter goons // vets who have played the game this way for years...

High sec is high sec null sec is null sec...

all it needs is a bit more variety to slow the fleets down or harder targets to kill...

watch ccp and csm *cough* goons - kill the game together.... CSM are a waste of space - could start by getting a true representation of the player base by employing someone who represents high sec parties.

the game is two - null and high - it doesnt matter where people and how people play as long as it good for the game - how many players are now able to pvp regularly becuase they are able to run a few incursions with their limited time.....

You twats make me sick go **** the game up again and see all those people who you managed to get to return to the game leave and leave for good..

So fixing inbalances in the Incursion system to encourage people to stop farming the easy sites and make the difficult sites more worthwhile is a bad thing... gotcha.

all it needs is a bit more variety to slow the fleets down or harder targets to kill...

the nullsec ISK faucet - I refer, of course, to tech moons.

Yeah.... rigth...
CCP dont like the word "nerf".... So they call it "balancing".

They removed allmost all drones from super-carriers (a droneship)
and called it "rebalancing"

For you dear!

So if I wrap my Myrmidon in tinfoil, will that fix it ?

Which was pretty much exactly what was proposed sweetie.

It helps when you actually read the article you are discussing.

Nerf Tech Moons....now that would produce a tital wave of tears on the forums, although they should be evenly distrubuted threw out null i believe. Not nerfed.

sitting on high ends and mooching all the isk they can from it.

Except "those who have numbers in their fleet from sitting on high ends" aren't spewing forth isk into the economy like a runaway firehose. They're transferring it from some players to themselves.

"621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions" impressive amount of isk they are making.

Ugh, we do have some standards you know.

isk into the market is good - people having a good time spending making the economy spin....

But hey never mind about the goons who control a large portion of the games biggest passive isk element and the fact they have so much influence in the game to rise nitro price so high that running poses for some become un profitable...

i seem to be having the same conversation with you zimmy boy.... high sec is high sec you want people back in null buff it so people may find living in null more fun than what it is atm

with your 60 man + blobs running around killing the 11 man incursion fleets that have just spent an hour to go pvp...

Heres the thing, if ccp moves all incursions to low sec 90% of people currently running them wont bother. The only thing it will do is make all the low sec dwellers very happy and thats it. As for people stating there is no risk, try running incursions and see that without logi support, you would die very quickly. CCP needs to be very careful when balancing incursions, if they get it wrong their idea for a new system of players working together will be over. This will be followed by the return to level 4 farming.

"621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions" impressive amount of isk they are making.

Good post

Which is why it needs to be controlled.

As to "goons who control a large portion of the game's biggest passive isk element", consider this: We're telling CCP to fix it

And please, if you're going to whine about the price of isotopes, at least get it right, it isn't nitrogen isotopes, it's oxygen isotopes. And the only reason it's so high right now is because of market bots..

There are lots of things that needs to be done to incentivize people to move into nullsec.

with your 60 man + blobs running around killing the 11 man incursion fleets that have just spent an hour to go pvp...
Oh man, 60 people is a blob now? I guess you'd better stay away from the more normal fleet fights then.

I think your fundamental failure is thinking that just because a game is a sandbox somebody implied a promise to you that the other kids aren't allowed to kick down your sand castle.

It's a sandbox precisely because other players have the freedom to interact with what you do in ways other than those you approve of.

You don't dislike that it's a sandbox. You dislike that it isn't your sandbox, and that complaint implies that you do not actually want a real sandbox.

I wish they would fix the appetite of the forum.



Even more impressive when you realise that the actual number could well be far higher than this exceptionally conservative estimate.

Assume three fleets per VG system making an average of 100mil per person per hour. That is 9 billion per incursion from the three VG's alone each hour. Add in another billion for those running assault or headquarters fleets. Double this as there are normally at least two incursions being run at a time. 20 billion an hour for a conservative 160 hours is 3200 billion a week.

I did round the numbers to make the calculation easy to follow but even this is a conservative estimate as there is more likely to be three incursions being farmed rather than one, more likely to be forty sites run per system per hour not thirty, this estimate does not include loyalty points which can add five percent minimum to fifteen percent for those who convert well. Only CCP would know the real amount and there is no chance they will reveal this dirty little secret.

I would put the raw ISK injection into EVE from incursions at closer to a conservative 3000 billion a week. CCP economists say this is not a serious problem? No incursion runner I know pays for their account now (unless they paid in advance and are waiting for it to run out), every one of them plexes it with under five hours grinding per month. There was a statement that CCP want lower plex prices as people are unlikely to pay for their accounts using other methods but this is a problem inherent with incursions as why should people pay real money for gametime when getting a plex is so damn easy and it is relatively painless to grind those billions a week?

To put this in perspective I will give myself as an example. I currently have seven accounts. It costs me under 3.5 billion a week to plex them. Seventy percent of this comes from passive or the most basic activities taking less than five minutes a day. Three hours of incursion grinding a week lets me pay for seven accounts. It would only be nine hours a week to pay for seven accounts with no other source of income. Working as intended?

your ******* the game up to get your own way

including wanting to fix tech goo which i find very hard to believe. What you going to do when ccp tell you to go toss a sheep in the air with tech, are you going to start shooting your own poses in disgust that you didnt get your own way?

being able to feel like what i did in fleet matters... you don't get close to that feeling in a goon fleet.

no risk in null sec

who needs 3 logi's in fleet if there is no risk right?

Fallacy.

Not seeing CCP's support of that report. Kass can do as she/he pleases. If the idea behind Incursions is to spawn the mom to kill the mom, then working as intended.

[(by the way 100m is way over estimate, those fleets are the shiny pimped up mach nightmare fleets, traditional fleets make approx 60m which is about on par with null ratting)

Fallacy.


So you're trying to tell us incursions are unpredictable? Because the number of logis doesn't tell us anything about how dangerous something is.

Actually the estimate is a fair average. SF's make 150mil/ph and even higher on a good day.

see there is your ignorance...

split dps, jammed logi, dc, awoxers can all happen in a vg fleet, I am surprised you **** ups havent come down here to do that just yet since you have made it clear you want to **** the game up as much as possible.

If you seriously think that is "dangerous", then by all means, stay as far away from any actual PVP as you can.

The majority of alliances have less than 300-400 people? vOv

"621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions" impressive amount of isk they are making.

C'mon gooney answer the question.

as for 300 - 400

150 alliance have more than 300 members

that was half way down of page 2 of 25 (

vOv MAJORTY

I've never run an Incursion but I hear the rewards are ridiculous, good on whoever is stopping that.. Darius III wasn't he a Goon?

I've never collected moon goo but I hear the rewards are ridiculous, good on whoever is stopping that... wait that'd be nobody.

"dangerous"? Any fleet fight is "dangerous". I lose anywhere between 2 and 10 maelstroms every month we're in a war.


How many of those are hisec alliances, made just for the sake of saying "yeah baby, I have an alliance"?

risk to incursion runners: the risk of not bringing enough logi but running the fleet anyway

Bolded the important bit.

so what you are saying is your alliance in a good month can spend 60bil on ship replacement programme for your alliance qualified setup Maelstroms...

what is so much more dangerous about that compared to someone who is running high sec VG incursions?

I tell you for a start that the 2.5bil for the pimped up mach is my own isk so if i loose it im going to have to start again... my isk will run out one day....

i dont see moons dissappearing anytime soon.

There was never 120 mission runners in Motsu ever. I ran out of there for over a year.


Half of Motsu was faction pilots and ninjas.

I skipped through the postings, but the following already annoyed me when it was ingame news ( sorry if it was already brought up):

621 billion per week. That's 88.7b per day or 3.7b per hour. At a modest 30m ISK / hour that is the equivalent of around 120 Level 4 mission runners IN THE ENTIRE CLUSTER.
Motsu alone has more traffic on a good day, and had for years. How can that be breaking anything?

WHAT'S REALLY HAPPENING IS kRISANDRA IS TRICKING PEOPLE INTO ASSAULT & MOM FLEETS THEN GREIFING THEM BY SPREADING BLACKBIRDS & WARPING OUT OF SITE jOIN kRISSANDRAS FLEET & DIE AT YOUR OWN RISK i GUESS

My understanding is that nerfing the demand for technetium (ideally by altering the production requirements of some T2 items so less producers needed it) would transfer the bottleneck down to the next most valuable material, making Neodymium the new supermoon.

Neo moons are much more equally distributed through space than Tech is.

Oy you bastard. We have never suicided a mom fleet with our own folks in it. How the hell did you think we even took down the first one in the first place? We suicided our fleet into it and then it magically disappeared?
Get a bit of logic into that caps-lock cruise controlled mind of yours.

I will bath in your tears this friday when we kill all your beloved incursions.

On a good day is over 150 million. In an ISN fleet I've never made less than 150ph

Just how few ships do you really think we lose every month during war?


I will lose those ships + pods every month. It's not even a risk, it's a certainty.


Uh huh. I'm sure you 1) MUST have that "pimped up mach", 2) will lose that every month, 3) certainly won't be making a profit.


Do you have any idea what kind of costs there is associated with running an alliance in nullsec? Do you have any idea how much of the moon-derived isk is fed directly to the common goon?

Even the title in the news is meant to convey the BS about incursions being too rewarding.

I was suspicious of this line at first. Several CSM members saying they wanted limited changes. Yet with this news post and the joining of hands to implement the drake nerf I am pretty sure in my opinion that we have ourselves a nice little push to nerf hisec.

The fact is i may loose my shiny i may not but the risk is there and if i do its going to be one big lose for me.

GEEEEEE That kinda like you goons spending 10 minutes to flush out poses and jump from one end of the universe to the other in a jf in a matter of seconds..... The shinys fleets have done no different to you morans invested isk to make it possible to create more isk quicker thats human nature you tit.

This is my game. High sec becuase i am sick of alliance like Goonswarm having so much influence in the overall running of the game.

Just like you i am loosing ships and i loose a lot more than you becuase we are a small corp constantly being reminded that to survive in this game you need numbers.

I am sure you are making a profit from your tanked ishtar at what 150m setuup with sentries?

jeeze i spend up to 3 bill of my own isk to make a way of being able to enjoy my end game a lot quicker and you spend a measly 150m on an ishtar and farm sanctums for just short of 70m a hour on a good day. may be close to 100m if you arent lazy and salvage wrecks and loot.

I can see right through you goons, the little goonies are getting worried that our high sec incursion communities are gonna come down to deklien and cause them trouble when all they want to do is rat in peace. You've obviously put the whole spin of time = reward saga on it but at the end of the day your only concerns are not for the good of the game [Its been publicly announced that your intentions are to screw the game up from within) but becuase you think one day the Blitzzer squads are gonna come down and make your home a bomb site.

The fact is i may loose my shiny i may not but the risk is there and if i do its going to be one big lose for me.

GEEEEEE That kinda like you goons spending 10 minutes to flush out poses and jump from one end of the universe to the other in a jf in a matter of seconds..... The shinys fleets have done no different to you morans invested isk to make it possible to create more isk quicker thats human nature you tit.

Creative gameplay: supported

Baseless ranting OPs: not supported

Incursion nerfs: supported

Incursion nerfs: supported

You lose more than me because you're being dumb and using an overly expensive ship, thus painting a huge "GANK ME I'M DUMB" target on your back.

Yes, you "may" lose (not loose, lose. sigh.) your ship. The only place that's "safe" is in a station, you undock what you can afford to lose. You being a dumbass and flying around with a 3b ship is on you. You don't need a 3b ship to play, you don't need to paint such a huge target on your back, yet you choose to do so.

You don't need a 3b ship to play, you don't need to paint such a huge target on your back, yet you choose to do so.

I don't rat, I don't mine, I don't run anoms, because I find those activities mindboggingly boring. I do trading in jita and manufacturing in hisec instead.

Ugh, we do have some standards you know.

Do you have any idea what kind of costs there is associated with running an alliance in nullsec? Do you have any idea how much of the moon-derived isk is fed directly to the common goon?

Never huh? Yawn I once caught a fish this >-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------< nig the next day it was this >--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------< big Yawn lies & liars that telll lies.. here lets hear you reply with another BS statistic you pull outta an arse hat you wear on you're head.. like U average 1.5 billion Isk a week in incursions by doing scouts alone with BOTs lol .. truth is in Incursions the only sites bottable are scouts & thank god they are not worth it yet

Well fine, once every so often we take 20 minutes, grab a drink, have a smoke, get a bite to eat, those hours we really suck and lose about a third of our income. But otherwise this is how my wallet tends to look.

http://i.imgur.com/62Cn9.jpg

Sorry that you run with fleets that suck, or fleets that have down times because they don't have wait lists and can swap in players as soon as the previous one has to leave (rather than spending 20 minutes asking in a channel "HEY GUYZ, NEED 1 DPS/LOGI")

I run as part of an organised network, payouts every 4-5 minutes. 150 mil ph is nothing more than doing 15 sites an hour, if you're not managing that as part of an organised shiny fleet then you're really doing it wrong.

Your bound to make that much in a pimped up shiny fleets between 1700 and 19:00.

Try making that amount of isk when its peak EU tz... and then try doing them in a traditional fleet.

It does actually say that isk / ph depends very much on the time of day you are running them and for me peak times are between 19:30 right throught to at least 22:00.....

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO dont nerf incursions............... ccp nerfed 0.0, missions, and mining (by buff suicide gankers)............ if ccp nerf the only other form of pve that is mildy amusing I may as well quit eve cos only the big alliance leaders (via tech moons and rent) & market traders will be making any isk

I HOPE CCP IS READING THIS. NERFing Vanguards instead of buffing Assaults/HQ's rewards is going to cuase a loss of subscriptions.

I personally don't care about the price.. this is merely proof that Incusions do dump too much into the game.

And everyone should be capable of seeing this with their own eyes. Understanding it tho.. heh.

Open market window in Forge. Click PLEX. Check its history and have it set for a year.. about how long Incursions have existed.

Ta-da.

EDIT: Little hint.. don't just examine the price. Volume moved is a better indicator.. especially when you factor that 2011 was a down year in sub-base for CCP. Moving the median average up by that much with less subs/players in the game means that PLEXs became easier to afford for people.

You are the reasoning would cause any statictician a huge facepalm. Correlation does not prove causality . The bigger correlation anyways if you look at the PLEX price graph is the eff ups in INCARNA that made many bittervets to stop paying for subscriptions & revert to PLEX while shutting down ALT accounts because they didn't like how Eve was being ignored & resources devoted to EMOavatars with fangs

"621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions" impressive amount of isk they are making.

Loyalty points are an ISK sink. You know, the whole paying ISK and LP to get the item

Nevertheless, an honest appraisal is a little more complicated than a back of the envelope calculation.

Stuff about missions

Frankly, that analysis is nigh-on impossible without having CCP's access to the data.

You are the reasoning would cause any statictician a huge facepalm. Correlation does not prove causality . The bigger correlation anyways if you look at the PLEX price graph is the eff ups in INCARNA that made many bittervets to stop paying for subscriptions & revert to PLEX while shutting down ALT accounts because they didn't like how Eve was being ignored & resources devoted to EMOavatars with fangs

oh no!

risk with reward?! Not in my highsec!

what risk are you talking about ?

Just curious.. since talking about risk in video game is kind of weird.. what is the worst which can happen ? You unsub and move-on

yup

Just woke up, woho another incursion blablabla EvE is rly missing content.
Maybe Anonymous can shut down EvE again for the good of stopping the incursion bashing.

Yes, let's cure the ingrown nail by sawing off the entire foot. Great idea.

(get out)

There's absolutely no difference between "ruining your game" and "ruining the game". None at all.

Sigh.

So what's next, screw-up missions as well, right ?

Incursions are not risk free

nonsense

I've never collected moon goo but I hear the rewards are ridiculous, good on whoever is stopping that... wait that'd be nobody.

Yes I said it. Fun. Eve is a video game. Video games are a type of game. Games are meant to be fun. Therefore, Eve is meant to be fun. Please dont crucify me because I play games to have fun

Any chance you're going to look at maybe proving CSM aren't catering to 0.0 alliances and looking at making 0.0 more viable for solo players and small groups without forcing them to pay ridiculous taxes just to go into the space without getting ganked?

That is, if you really are about having fun and not just wanting fun for yourself.

I've never run an Incursion but I hear the rewards are ridiculous, good on whoever is stopping that.. Darius III wasn't he a Goon?

I've never collected moon goo but I hear the rewards are ridiculous, good on whoever is stopping that... wait that'd be nobody.

I'll give you a non-trolling answer:

The problem isn't the amount of isk. The problem is that the actual act of taking away a system is a massive cockstab which is way, way too easy to deflect. The SOV system needs to be modified to be much, much more dynamic than it currently is, with a lot more small targets. This would have the knock-on benefits of enabling two coalitions to run constant harassment against the other to grind down SOV, instead of these fuckoff huge fleets we currently see all the time with 1000+ in local.

While 1000+ in local is fun, designing a SOV system which encourages smaller fleet engagements would most likely be more fun and enable smaller alliances to gain a foothold in otherwise unused nullsec space.

Tech isn't an isk faucet. It transfers isk, yes, but it doesn't add or remove isk from the game in any way, shape or form.

This is actually a very good answer by a goon. But there is one problem. ISK. Small entities cannot compete with large entities. Even if you by some miracle get a system or a bunch of system you still cannot afford to war on your enemy. Not when your enemy has ship replacemnt programs etc. They can always win by either share number, or super caps, or merc or isk. So many alliances have moved into 0.0 emire space to earn isk with the possibility of later obtaining space but instead 0.0 empire becomes the death of them cos they cant move and actually conquer space. The reasons mentioned above just keep showing its ogly face =(

Running for President?

Sorry I am doing a drive by on this thread.

OP is literally the weakest link here. This doesn't have anything to do with the CSM or CCP. Nor does it have to do with 0.0 Vs bears.

This is focused on removal of an out of whack mechanic and removing a risk free Isk Faucet.

At first I thought no one could be dumber than Endevor Starfleet. Thanks for proving me wrong.

You guys with your conspiracy theories are really taxing my ability to read, and respond to, genuine questions/concerns about what we are doing. For some, this is about the tears. For others revenge is the motive. At the core-we really are genuinely trying to force CCP to balance Incursions with the rest of Eve. I suspect a lot of us are doing this because it is something to do, and that it overlaps other reasons listed above.

CCP has a long history of bringing something into a game and tweaking it to bring it to close levels with other things of a similar nature. Remember when the Drone Regions were new? I erected a POS with refining array. Was making stupid amounts of ISK refining the drone compounds. When I say stupid amounts of ISK I mean crazy stupid amounts of ISK. Few months later they reduced the mineral payouts from killing Drone spawns.

I was a little sad, but I understood that what I was making unfair amounts of money doing something easy, and when they nerfed the deal, I made a more balanced income vs. the risk of other occupations. They did good balancing act on that, even though it hurt me personally.

My primary personal motivations and goals for shutting down incursions have been met, mostly. What I really wanted to do was make a big enough impression that the organizers of leading incursion teams would have a conference with me. They did, and it was productive-at least to me. I got their truthful answers and very valuable input about incursions, that I used to make my recommendations to CCP about a nerf. Most of the rest of it was for trolling and for fun.

Yes I said it. Fun. Eve is a video game. Video games are a type of game. Games are meant to be fun. Therefore, Eve is meant to be fun. Please dont crucify me because I play games to have fun

Of course ISK wil rear its face at some point, that doesn't change the fact that what we're seeing, right now, is a ton of space not being used by anyone, but it's also not being attacked because everyone knows it'll take a LONG time to actually get anywhere, if just looking at the mass of EHP on structures. There's a reason Delve/Querious/etc was left in IT Alliance's hands for months after they essentially died.

If the act of actually losing SOV (and as a result, taking SOV) was easier, then today's large sprawling empires wouldn't be nearly as easy to defend, and as such they would end up contracting on their own.

ISK does make it easier to defend space because you have ship replacement programs etc, yes, but there comes a point where you end up having too much to defend. ISK can only carry you so far before you burn out.

incursions dont need nerfed they need balanced so they cant be grinded forever, there should be a reward for ending an incursion quickly, or make the site bountys degrade over time. then ccp can focus on breathing life back into 0.0 by making sov worth taking.

TLDR;

Null sec tears becuase they can't make that much isk/hour in null which is BS
High sec tears saying leave my game play alone for my gaming style they do the job
Darrius 3 wanting revenge for having his little pos nerfed in drone region....
oh and Lord zim being a typical goon thinking the game is all about null sec.

missed anything?

"621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions" impressive amount of isk they are making.

TLDR;

Null sec tears becuase they can't make that much isk/hour in null which is BS
High sec tears saying leave my game play alone for my gaming style they do the job
Darrius 3 wanting revenge for having his little pos nerfed in drone region....


missed anything?

You didnt miss anything, you missed everything I wanted you to believe.

Now do something useful since you don't want people to be able to make ISK, do it against the moon holders who have it just as easy with their JF's, JB routes, Cyno gens, intel channels... Go ahead and do your best to make me believe that apparently that isn't "in-balanced".

"Why don't you go pick on them instead? We're just a small snack, they're a much bigger snack!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAu_Ykvju5A

LOL great response. All you do is mock people who bring valid points to the argument you've done it with every reply whether it is to me or to other people.

Its called framing - you are framing incursions as the "end of the game", when what is really on everyones mind is the end of the game will be the influence of people like you and the null sec entities.

There's a reason I'm mocking people like you. You're being whiny about someone ruining the game because they're playing the incursions in a way which is perfectly legal, by killing off the mothership when it appears. Nowhere does it say "the mothership must not be touched until the absolute last moment" in the rules.

Harden the **** up, wardec them and make them stop, instead of being a whiny little goat going "please grief them instead, they're much fatter than me!".

Jeez.

Have you ever thought that what you are doing is really good for the game not your tears and stamping of your feet and desire to get your own way like a 3 year old but becuase you have issue's with the percieved "in-balance" and decided to develop a type of game play to disrupt the well oiled teams (remember just becuase people work well together doesn't mean its inbalanced sometimes all thats needed is a bit of variety and flexibility to surprise). That to me is another form of PVP and a route for the game that makes it interesting.

******* hell you dumb **** read the ******* post you ********. I say that its a form of pvp that is fine and good for the game you tit.

"It's perfectly fine, but please, please, go grief the nullbears instead. :( :( :("

Have you ever thought that what you are doing is really good for the game not your tears and stamping of your feet and desire to get your own way like a 3 year old but becuase you have issue's with the percieved "in-balance" and decided to develop a type of game play to disrupt the well oiled teams (remember just becuase people work well together doesn't mean its inbalanced sometimes all thats needed is a bit of variety and flexibility to surprise). That to me is another form of PVP and a route for the game that makes it interesting.

As I said, "it's perfectly fine, but please grief the nullbears instead. :(".

By the way since you are intent on killing incursions with your hit squads killing the mom asap isn't that an interesting form of pvp....

Have you ever thought that what you are doing is really good for the game not your tears and stamping of your feet and desire to get your own way like a 3 year old but becuase you have issue's with the percieved "in-balance" and decided to develop a type of game play to disrupt the well oiled teams (remember just becuase people work well together doesn't mean its inbalanced sometimes all thats needed is a bit of variety and flexibility to surprise). That to me is another form of PVP and a route for the game that makes it interesting.

Now do something useful since you don't want people to be able to make ISK, do it against the moon holders who have it just as easy with their JF's, JB routes, Cyno gens, intel channels... Go ahead and do your best to make me believe that apparently that isn't "in-balanced".

As I said, "it's perfectly fine, but please grief the nullbears instead. :(".

By the way since you are intent on killing incursions with your hit squads killing the mom asap isn't that an interesting form of pvp....

Have you ever thought that what you are doing is really good for the game not your tears and stamping of your feet and desire to get your own way like a 3 year old but becuase you have issue's with the percieved "in-balance" and decided to develop a type of game play to disrupt the well oiled teams (remember just becuase people work well together doesn't mean its inbalanced sometimes all thats needed is a bit of variety and flexibility to surprise). That to me is another form of PVP and a route for the game that makes it interesting.

Now do something useful since you don't want people to be able to make ISK, do it against the moon holders who have it just as easy with their JF's, JB routes, Cyno gens, intel channels... Go ahead and do your best to make me believe that apparently that isn't "in-balanced".

do it against the moon holders who have it just as easy with their JF's, JB routes, Cyno gens, intel channels

New Eden - A group of capsuleers, led by Krissada, are attempting to disrupt the "ISK farming" currently occurring at Sansha Incursion sites. They are planning to destroy Sansha motherships as soon as they arrive through their wormholes and in doing so hope to cut back the amount of ISK earned by capsuleers who attend the incursions simply to collect bounties on the lesser Sansha forces in the area.

Krissada is apparently aggrieved that "bears" are able to "farm" for ISK in high-sec Incursions with little risk as long as they do not destroy the Sansha mothership. This, to her, is a blatant misuse of CONCORD's reward system and she is focused on stopping what she believes is an "ISK faucet". Disgruntled with how Incursions are fought she revealed her belief that "Sansha forces appear to be infinite, as is the depth of CONCORD's wallet".

Krissada's plan is to destroy the Sansha motherships as soon as possible which will hopefully cause the immediate withdrawal of Sansha forces and prevent further bounties being collected by "Incursion Bears". She hopes to force those wanting to make ISK from Incursions into low-sec and thus ensuring when Sansha forces arrive in high-sec they are dealt with quickly by capsuleers who want to see victory rather than reward.

Giving firm backing to Krissada, CSM member Darius III seemed to agree that high-sec Incursions are no longer about defeating Sansha's Nation but more about what can be earned: "The sites pay too much with almost no risk."

HardinSalvor, an Incursion community leader, reflected on how things have changed due to the lure of ISK: "Once the influence dropped low enough for the mom to spawn, people would rush to kill it. Through some diplomacy, a status quo was created where we avoid killing the mom as long as possible."

Some questionable math by community leaders sees them believing that an incredible 621 billion ISK is paid out by CONCORD every week from Incursions. If the numbers are accurate, it may be no surprise that a prominent Fleet Commander from the BTL Incursion channel is alleged to have bribed Darius III with 500 million ISK to not destroy a mothership during an Incursion

There is a lot of ISK to be made for those brave enough to fight against Sansha's Nation and with fleets now forming with the sole purpose of stopping that ISK being collected, as well as loyalists already attempting to aid Sansha forces, there may come a time soon that there are no capsuleers left to fight against Sansha's Nation as they will all be fighting each other.

.

I think what he is trying to say here is that your "mom-hit squads" disrupt incursions fairly easily but in null sec to disrupt ISK making its a lot more difficult. By all accounts if a team wanted to kill a pos it requires a lot more organisation and numbers to first of all reinforce the pos and 24 hours later to do it all over again against a defence fleet. Which in goons case would be numbers titans scs carriers logi bs intel etc etc.

You do realize that if you want to "grief" us, all you need to do is knock the POS into reinforced. Voila, x hours of no mining. Isk lost.

JBs are easily camped, tons of people in nullsec are just as risk averse as you guys are, so parking a cloaky alt (maybe one with a covert cyno and a blackops and a few other guys within jump range), and voila, risk-free and effortless jewing disruption. Probably even a few juicy kills if you keep it up long enough so people get careless.

It doesn't take a huge amount of organization. vOv

Its the act of knocking a pos into reinforce, currently if we wanted to reinforce one of your tech moons i can not do that with just 20 people.

:) thats why although Jbs do make it easier for you to move things around, they do provide a focus point and in reply create a type of game play which i still think is negated a bit by the fact you can anchor every dog and bone on cyno gen and jb pos.

Now I believe if you wanted to make a truely dynamic Null sec in eve - being able to disrupt isk making should require the same amount of under currents.... Null sec is good i can do this and i have this available to make my isk etc etc.... Lets go disrupt them from making isk im sure they will come pew pew against us.... Not today lads we have 10 they are 60....POS saved, system safe, region quiet, just be careful on the jbs.

Why not?

They don't make things easier to move around, they make travelling less of a cockstab. There's a difference.

It doesn't take a huge amount of organization. vOv


What you're talking about is taking over a resource. That's wildly different from disrupting and causing pain, which is a lot easier and takes vastly less organization and manpower. When you reinforce the POS, it's "taken out" for a few days. Just like the incursion.

Too much risk in having 20 man blown up by your 100 man sub-capital and captial fleet, and the time it takes for someone to earn enough isk to have their ship back.

Oh come on man you have a jb and cyno gen in ec- and a direct warp to high sec how is that not easier to move around?

The vision here is that its giving people a focus to disrupt and make playing the game harsh as well as exciting just like high sec incursions have created currents of hatred for people like yourself and just as much current for you against high sec incursion runners. The main thing is it doesnt require lots of people to disrupt isk making in high sec incursions it would require a lot more resourced if the scenario was turned around.

If that's what you think, there's nothing I can do for you.

Yes, JBs and cyno gens are magic unicorn features that make nullsec a veritable carebear wonderland. (Hint: They don't. They reduce grind slightly, that's all they do.)

It's certainly nothing like loading up an orca or freighter in hisec and send it autopiloting to a destination, to dock up automatically. And I certainly haven't done that tons of times myself, initiated autopilot and watched a film instead. Hell, last time I did this I even forgot about it until I got home from work the other day. So difficult.

It doesn't take "a lot more resources". The main thing it takes is to actually have the balls to go out there.

Once the influence dropped low enough for the mom to spawn, people would rush to kill it. Through some diplomacy, a status quo was created where we avoid killing the mom as long as possible.

Not grind but the speet to which they can get it to the main hubs to sell.

I am missing you here as you seem to suggest that doing the involves an element of risk or something?

Oh people have the balls its the ability to replace lost resources.

So coming back, incursions have created a type of New game play. Not killing the mom is the broken mechanic but in my opinion that is the sandbox working right there - - is that any different to null entities creating blue lists so they can continue to farm isk?

I am sure you are making a profit from your tanked ishtar at what 150m setuup with sentries?

jeeze i spend up to 3 bill of my own isk to make a way of being able to enjoy my end game a lot quicker and you spend a measly 150m on an ishtar and farm sanctums for just short of 70m a hour on a good day. may be close to 100m if you arent lazy and salvage wrecks and loot.

An Ishtar does not pump out anywhere near enough dps to make 70m an hour.

The main difference, however, is that these bluelists in nullsec tend to try to defend their resources, instead of whining about how it's such an exploit to circumvent the exploitation of the VG sites, like the OP is doing.

(Well, there are of course those who just fall back to NPC or empire, bitching and whining about NAPfests, blobs, botnets, supers, cheating, exploiting and god knows what. **** them.)

I am sure if people could "defend" the mom to farm the sites a little bit longer than they would do. Other than w-deccing the "mom hit sqauds" not much is available to create that type of game play.

There you go then. vOv

CCP have got the right idea with this. What I find flabbergasting is they're removing a highsec ISK faucet without even touching the nullsec ISK faucet - I refer, of course, to tech moons.

However, there's nothing gamebreaking about tech moons really. Tech moons do have a risk/reward factor in that alliances battle for control over these moons; incursions, on the other hand, present no risk to the incursion-runners except possibly a fail logistics pilot ruining it for everyone.

I am sure if people could "defend" the mom to farm the sites a little bit longer than they would do. Other than w-deccing the "mom hit sqauds" not much is available to create that type of game play.

Thinks that actually that would be just as fun gameplay for people.