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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:24:00 -
[1]
Quote: The aim of the review is to overhaul the killmail system, shifting it to a kill log available in the character sheet as a standard table, thus allowing a rich format view while keeping the current classic text format. The main benefit being the kill records are always persisted and won't fill your evemail inbox. All participants will be recorded and shown (no longer truncated at 20), NPC final blows (where NPC fired the death shot) will be shown and the kill log will update the highest damaging player as the recipient of the log update. Rigs and dropped items will be included alongside destroyed items. We hope this delivers.
about time. -
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:28:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
Quote: The aim of the review is to overhaul the killmail system, shifting it to a kill log available in the character sheet as a standard table, thus allowing a rich format view while keeping the current classic text format. The main benefit being the kill records are always persisted and won't fill your evemail inbox. All participants will be recorded and shown (no longer truncated at 20), NPC final blows (where NPC fired the death shot) will be shown and the kill log will update the highest damaging player as the recipient of the log update. Rigs and dropped items will be included alongside destroyed items. We hope this delivers.
about time.
Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve. ---------------
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Ogdru Jahad
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:34:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Ogdru Jahad on 11/09/2007 14:34:17
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
Quote: The aim of the review is to overhaul the killmail system, shifting it to a kill log available in the character sheet as a standard table, thus allowing a rich format view while keeping the current classic text format. The main benefit being the kill records are always persisted and won't fill your evemail inbox. All participants will be recorded and shown (no longer truncated at 20), NPC final blows (where NPC fired the death shot) will be shown and the kill log will update the highest damaging player as the recipient of the log update. Rigs and dropped items will be included alongside destroyed items. We hope this delivers.
about time.
Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
One. I dont know wtf CS is....
What is wrong with kill mails?
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Josiah Caledon
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:36:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
Allow me to be the first:
This is Eve, you have no place in Eve.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:46:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
What is wrong with kill mails?
IMO, Killmails are the leading cause of the over-inflated, e-peen waving egos that endorse and support the win by any means style of game play. Metagaming (i.e. logoffski) is a blight, one that seems to stem from the inability to take a loss on a killboard. I think Eve would be better off if all names were removed from killmails. Give the fleet commanders the info they need (location, ship class, involved parties), but lose the personal information so we can be rid of the childish bragging.
Originally by: Josiah Caledon
Allow me to be the first:
This is Eve, you have no place in Eve.
Come on, that wasn't even imaginative. ---------------
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Josiah Caledon
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
What is wrong with kill mails?
IMO, Killmails are the leading cause of the over-inflated, e-peen waving egos that endorse and support the win by any means style of game play. Metagaming (i.e. logoffski) is a blight, one that seems to stem from the inability to take a loss on a killboard. I think Eve would be better off if all names were removed from killmails. Give the fleet commanders the info they need (location, ship class, involved parties), but lose the personal information so we can be rid of the childish bragging.
Agreed on one part, don't really care who died, ship class, involved parties, location AND items is better IMO.
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Josiah Caledon
Allow me to be the first:
This is Eve, you have no place in Eve.
Come on, that wasn't even imaginative.
It's 10 in the morning give me a break!
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Spurty
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:54:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Spurty on 11/09/2007 14:54:32 Its just a game remember that!
Having killmails is a good way to see if you are progressing or regressing skill wise (I don't mean skillpoints)
Being left off of killmails (*cough* me *cough*) when you are the tackler is frustrating as makes it look like you weren't even there. They contain a whole heap more information than just 'who won a fight'.
If you have a great gang and can't remember them all, killmails are the written history. Who did what and where.
Perhaps you are upset about the word 'kill' and really don't mind the concept so much if they were 'politically corrected' to be named 'Battlemails' ?
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Brutor Shaun
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Posted - 2007.09.11 14:59:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad One. I dont know wtf CS is....
CS is :- 1. an irritant or 2. an irritating game
Bookmark Idea - My skills
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Xiaodown
Dragons Of Redemption Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:04:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Brutor Shaun
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad One. I dont know wtf CS is....
CS is :- 1. an irritant or 2. an irritating game
3.) Profit!
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I DJ on BoB Radio! Tune in Monday, 8PM New York time (0000 Tuesday evetime) to hear my totally awesome mix of ska, punk, and ownage. |
Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:06:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Nicho Void on 11/09/2007 15:06:36
Originally by: Spurty
Being left off of killmails (*cough* me *cough*) when you are the tackler is frustrating as makes it look like you weren't even there. They contain a whole heap more information than just 'who won a fight'.
If you have a great gang and can't remember them all, killmails are the written history. Who did what and where.
Perhaps you are upset about the word 'kill' and really don't mind the concept so much if they were 'politically corrected' to be named 'Battlemails' ?
I'll try to explain my stance a little better. Why do you feel that the tackler needs to be in the killmail? For that matter, why does the rest of the party need to be in the killmail? You were all there, so you know what you did to help! The rest is just used to brag to the forums. The forum sigs are a perfect example. Why do people feel it necessary to advertise their latest kill? Is it helping them win a war, or bring down a POS? I doubt it.
As far as battle intelligence and information goes, I really can't say because I'm not an FC. I'd love to have some insight there. IMO though, a FC needs to know two things, how many of them we killed, and how many of us we lost. Ship class and modules could be helpful as well, but pilot names aren't really of importance in the grand scheme of things. ---------------
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Josiah Caledon
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Nicho Void Edited by: Nicho Void on 11/09/2007 15:06:36
Originally by: Spurty
Being left off of killmails (*cough* me *cough*) when you are the tackler is frustrating as makes it look like you weren't even there. They contain a whole heap more information than just 'who won a fight'.
If you have a great gang and can't remember them all, killmails are the written history. Who did what and where.
Perhaps you are upset about the word 'kill' and really don't mind the concept so much if they were 'politically corrected' to be named 'Battlemails' ?
I'll try to explain my stance a little better. Why do you feel that the tackler needs to be in the killmail? For that matter, why does the rest of the party need to be in the killmail? You were all there, so you know what you did to help! The rest is just used to brag to the forums. The forum sigs are a perfect example. Why do people feel it necessary to advertise their latest kill? Is it helping them win a war, or bring down a POS? I doubt it.
As far as battle intelligence and information goes, I really can't say because I'm not an FC. I'd love to have some insight there. IMO though, a FC needs to know two things, how many of them we killed, and how many of us we lost. Ship class and modules could be helpful as well, but pilot names aren't really of importance in the grand scheme of things.
Participation, at glance I can look on our killboard and see which members participate the most. This might seem like a lake of communication, and I will never 100% know someone participated during an op unless I'm personally there, but the KB is a good tool for it.
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Primnproper
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:11:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Nicho Void Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
I didn't realise CS had killmails |
Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Josiah Caledon
Participation, at glance I can look on our killboard and see which members participate the most. This might seem like a lake of communication, and I will never 100% know someone participated during an op unless I'm personally there, but the KB is a good tool for it.
I can see the benefit when KBs are used this way, I'm sure it makes participation tracking much, much easier. As was pointed out earlier though, not everyone involved makes the killmail. I realize that's the point of the thread (more accurate killmails), but I have to wonder if the only legitimate use of killmails (tracking) is simply a unintended use of the system. If so, could a better means of tracking be developed separately?
Originally by: Primnproper
Originally by: Nicho Void Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
I didn't realise CS had killmails
I didn't realize you were too dense to make the connection between killmails and frags, killboards and scoreboards. Sorry, I'll dumb it down next time. ---------------
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Kaar
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:30:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Josiah Caledon
Participation, at glance I can look on our killboard and see which members participate the most. This might seem like a lake of communication, and I will never 100% know someone participated during an op unless I'm personally there, but the KB is a good tool for it.
I can see the benefit when KBs are used this way, I'm sure it makes participation tracking much, much easier. As was pointed out earlier though, not everyone involved makes the killmail. I realize that's the point of the thread (more accurate killmails), but I have to wonder if the only legitimate use of killmails (tracking) is simply a unintended use of the system. If so, could a better means of tracking be developed separately?
Originally by: Primnproper
Originally by: Nicho Void Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
I didn't realise CS had killmails
I didn't realize you were too dense to make the connection between killmails and frags, killboards and scoreboards. Sorry, I'll dumb it down next time.
I didn't realize that when you shot someone in CS it could ruin months of sweat and toil.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:33:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kaar I didn't realize that when you shot someone in CS it could ruin months of sweat and toil.
How is this relevant? No one wants killmails so they can see all the **** they lost. THEY KNOW what they lost. ---------------
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Kaar
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:37:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Kaar I didn't realize that when you shot someone in CS it could ruin months of sweat and toil.
How is this relevant? No one wants killmails so they can see all the **** they lost. THEY KNOW what they lost.
uhh...and did you think of the killers?
You're one of those empire things ain't ya, that only ever gets LOSSmails and never see's the other side of things.
Come, I gief hug.
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Gaven Blands
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:46:00 -
[17]
Johnny Wishbone, famous psychic from the Isle of St. Croix says CCP are going to get yet-another-handpicked-3rd-party to handle the data mining from the new killmail system to run "The One True Killboard Vendor".
Alliances will be able to have "True Killboards" for $30 per month.
But unless they include the option to >cough< not post lossmails >choke< >splutter< they will fail.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:50:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kaar
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Kaar I didn't realize that when you shot someone in CS it could ruin months of sweat and toil.
How is this relevant? No one wants killmails so they can see all the **** they lost. THEY KNOW what they lost.
uhh...and did you think of the killers?
You're one of those empire things ain't ya, that only ever gets LOSSmails and never see's the other side of things.
Come, I gief hug.
If I apply your argument to the side of the killers, I come up with this:
We need killboards because the killers need to know that they are ruining months of sweat and toil.
You seem to be proving my point here. If anything, you're arguing that CS scoreboards don't show enough information. I'm seriously baffled here.
Let me start over then. Killboards do nothing but inflate egos and e-peens. We don't need that here. ---------------
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QwaarJet
Gallente hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.11 15:55:00 -
[19]
IMO kills without killmails lose a lot of the fun. I'm sure everyone can put up with a little e-peen waving.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:00:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Nicho Void on 11/09/2007 16:01:21
Originally by: QwaarJet IMO kills without killmails lose a lot of the fun. I'm sure everyone can put up with a little e-peen waving.
At least you're honest. On a whole, I don't disagree. Killmails are fun...but the e-peen waving could be eliminated if names were removed from the system. Hell, even the forums have rules preventing you from posting killmails with names. Seems to me like they're on to something.
EDIT: Well done in the tournament BTW! I was pulling for you guys. ---------------
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Fehz
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:02:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
Quote: The aim of the review is to overhaul the killmail system, shifting it to a kill log available in the character sheet as a standard table, thus allowing a rich format view while keeping the current classic text format. The main benefit being the kill records are always persisted and won't fill your evemail inbox. All participants will be recorded and shown (no longer truncated at 20), NPC final blows (where NPC fired the death shot) will be shown and the kill log will update the highest damaging player as the recipient of the log update. Rigs and dropped items will be included alongside destroyed items. We hope this delivers.
about time.
Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
If eve didn't have killmails, I'd have nothing to play for..
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DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:05:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Nicho Void Killboards do nothing but inflate egos and e-peens. We don't need that here.
Whoever is using killmails to brag on a spaceship game forum has serious issues... except for Titan kills...
Oh well! Think I might have pointed out half of Eve.
Anyway. Your logic of "You were all there" fails...
WHO ?? Sometimes we are fighting in battles having a dozens alliances on each side. In the heat of the battle, you'll never be able to say : "Hey, look, that guy is from X corp/alliance that is suppose to be X standing... yada"
That information is important as it can have an effect on the corp/alliance for various reasons.
------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet |
Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:05:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Fehz
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Ogdru Jahad
Quote: The aim of the review is to overhaul the killmail system, shifting it to a kill log available in the character sheet as a standard table, thus allowing a rich format view while keeping the current classic text format. The main benefit being the kill records are always persisted and won't fill your evemail inbox. All participants will be recorded and shown (no longer truncated at 20), NPC final blows (where NPC fired the death shot) will be shown and the kill log will update the highest damaging player as the recipient of the log update. Rigs and dropped items will be included alongside destroyed items. We hope this delivers.
about time.
Allow me to be the first:
This isn't CS. Killmails have no place in Eve.
If eve didn't have killmails, I'd have nothing to play for..
::sigh:: This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Again, you prove my point. Eve is so much more than a kill count! When killmails are all you play for, presumably lossmails are everything you avoid. At any cost. ---------------
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Josiah Caledon
The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:10:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Nicho Void
::sigh:: This is like shooting fish in a barrel.
Again, you prove my point. Eve is so much more than a kill count! When killmails are all you play for, presumably lossmails are everything you avoid. At any cost.
Wrong, it's generally the loss of items is what everyone avoids, the killmail is simply the cherry on top for the ones killing a person/gang/alliance.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:10:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Oh well! Think I might have pointed out half of Eve.
Yepp.
Originally by: DeTox MinRohim Anyway. Your logic of "You were all there" fails...
WHO ?? Sometimes we are fighting in battles having a dozens alliances on each side. In the heat of the battle, you'll never be able to say : "Hey, look, that guy is from X corp/alliance that is suppose to be X standing... yada"
That information is important as it can have an effect on the corp/alliance for various reasons.
My logic doesn't fail here, your recon skills do. I think alliance warfare would be more fun without killmails. Lots more double crosses and stuff because you could actually pull it off.
I realize I'm probably alone in that idea though, which is why I'm not advocating removal of involved alliance in killmails. Just the names of the individual players. ---------------
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Kaar
Art of War Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:13:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Nicho Void
We need killboards because the killers need to know that they are ruining months of sweat and toil.
Yes.
I think we are very different people
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Sever Aldaria
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:18:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Nicho Void Killboards do nothing but inflate egos and e-peens. We don't need that here.
Anyone can let their ego inflate but not everyone does:
- As a pvp group, we use our private killboard to check our efficiency to see how we're doing. If efficiency drops, we need to figure out why it dropped, learn from it, and further improve.
- Being a US TZ player, I use it to compare pvp activity between Euro and US side. Additionally, I use it to check the pvp activity of newer members to make sure they're getting out in gangs frequently.
- I check loss mails and when I see a newer member get ganked, I try to help him understand why it happened and learn from it.
- Its fun to see some of the more interesting fights my friends had while I wasn't around and to hear the stories about them (sometimes hilariously funny).
- Seeing the kills and fights of your entire corp/alliance is good for morale
So there's a few good reasons (there are more) for having killboards which aren't about epeen waving.
[green]Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further d |
Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:25:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Sever Aldaria
Originally by: Nicho Void Killboards do nothing but inflate egos and e-peens. We don't need that here.
Anyone can let their ego inflate but not everyone does:
- As a pvp group, we use our private killboard to check our efficiency to see how we're doing. If efficiency drops, we need to figure out why it dropped, learn from it, and further improve.
- Being a US TZ player, I use it to compare pvp activity between Euro and US side. Additionally, I use it to check the pvp activity of newer members to make sure they're getting out in gangs frequently.
- I check loss mails and when I see a newer member get ganked, I try to help him understand why it happened and learn from it.
- Its fun to see some of the more interesting fights my friends had while I wasn't around and to hear the stories about them (sometimes hilariously funny).
- Seeing the kills and fights of your entire corp/alliance is good for morale
So there's a few good reasons (there are more) for having killboards which aren't about epeen waving.
Alright! Finally someone with some legit reasons other than, "I need to count my kills and the amount of grief inflicted."
My only remaining argument is that pilot names need not be involved. The only case I can see it being of value is your example of helping new pilots who are having a rough time. Everything else, ratios, efficiency, times of action, can all be done without the names. ---------------
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DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:25:00 -
[29]
Edited by: DeTox MinRohim on 11/09/2007 16:28:02
Originally by: Nicho Void
My logic doesn't fail here, your recon skills do.
Your logic fails as much as my recon skills do since I doubt you ever did yourself that kind of recon it would require to have a near accurate information flow. Killboards are of course not perfect either (truncated mails - scouts/others not directly involved, etc.) but it's a start.
Originally by: Nicho Void I think alliance warfare would be more fun without killmails. Lots more double crosses and stuff because you could actually pull it off.
I'm not in for the killmails like some said but it does leave a trace. Although limited, it has a certain amount of valid information.
It all depends on what you do with it. If people only use them to brag... sucks for them, they are missing a whole level of the fun. Pilot names can be important for some to trace the progression of said pilots... or whatever one feels about it. + What the other said bout his noob loss mails.
EDIT: Fixed bad edit - damn forum... ------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet |
DeTox MinRohim
Madhatters Inc. M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.09.11 16:33:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Nicho Void Everything else, ratios, efficiency, times of action, can all be done without the names.
Without the pilot names, your "everything else" would be only useful on corp/alliance level as it wouldn't be kept on the pilot level. Some players find this information important for themselves or on a enemy pilot.
But that where the line is drawn between people who brag about their stats and the others... hence... the problem you have with killmails.
------ This sig space is Read-only ! omgalink - Online Skillsheet |
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