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Gloria Spearhead
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Posted - 2007.09.14 00:31:00 -
[1]
I will open up a discussion here.
I perfectly understand the maths behind the learnings. And most is true: guetting learnings way up tru the ladder will save up learning time.
Yet and my point is this.
Doing so at newb level might kill out your game play and your game all toghether.
My personnal asumption is that radical thinking in learning skills have drawned away more new players out of the game then server crashes.
No more no less.
Here is my point.
Learnings skills can be leveled up quickly up to lvl 4 within a few days within the game.
And doing them to lvl 4 in logical sequence is very important.
Yet, all other support skills and main attribute skills will get you in the game also!!!
And even thaugh learnings being braught up way up will in the end save skilling time in the next 3 years of your gaming, when you are flying a cheap frigate with basically no skills is ridiculous.
Yet alot of corps officers get new players into learnings skills and into alot of boring game play upon a radical reading of mathematical skilling time ie. learning skills sequence witch is wrong IMO.
From my observations, you can get your basic skills and support skills up fast and within the 3 months of birth to lvl 3 and learnings up to lvl 4 then in a clever sequence. Then when you have acquired a game for yourself then go ahead and plan up specialisation and advanced learnings.
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ArrogantGod
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Posted - 2007.09.14 00:54:00 -
[2]
I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.09.14 01:08:00 -
[3]
I do agree that learning skills are a problem. A few people in my corp have just joined eve, and are doing their learning skills... I can tell they are bored out of their collective minds flying around in a frigate doing crap level 1s.
I don't know what the solution is though.
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Tzt
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Posted - 2007.09.14 03:47:00 -
[4]
I truely don't get the point in these learning skills. Perhaps they allow for further specialisation? But you need to train all forms of skills anyway, my Laser skills are Perception based and my spaceship kills are too, and my tank is intelligence, my capacitor skills to support both are also intelligence, and navigation is a blend of the two. I also intend to train up leadership skills so I can give gang bonuses from behind my tank. Willpower doesn't seem that important yet.
I am currently training them all up, as now, the beginning, is the only logical time to train them, it will take me my entire trial time to get 4-4 on all my skills (bar charisma which i have enough of anyway I think) so Perhaps I have nothing to complain about.
I chose Amarr>Khanid(+3 int+2perc)>Cymber Knights(+3per+1int)>Engineer, even though my wish is to engage in fights, as the skills (lots of tank skills and Two very usable level V's). The soldier one was temping but at the end up of my learnings I'll have good percpetion and willpower to train them up. And thanks to my grinding on my first Caldari Trial i have a set of implants and can afford the advanced skills (albeit am next to broke now, ahhh).
I don't get why that skills everyone must train yet have no actual effect on your characters as such are in the game, it seems like a method of making people waste 1-2 weeks, or months (?! madness) if they top them out. For sure, you have to endure this horrible boredom of not having a ship capable of doing much (depending on what path you chose) for weeks before you get into the real training up.
This may be a good time for me to simply explore areas and systems in my impairor, just wander about aimlessly.
From reading a few topics on learning skills it seems some kind of revolting caldari achura skillpoint cult has emerged, indeed I played an achura trial first (nice ability to grind missions, I admit, bleh) based on all this razzmatazz but...well I want to me Amarr! to hell with slightly better training times. Golden hulls, lasers, Armour, questionable ethics...that is how I always saw space, the aesthetic appeal is unresistable for me.
I Think differing attributes are good, they define the races apart from each other and make you think about who you want to be and how you wish to play, but learning skills...bleh, they seem only good for people who like to say 'yah, i maxed out my learnings, now i train xxxx SP and hour on such-and-such a skill, feel inqdequate to me!'. Of course such OCD only plays off if you always have a skill training and never miss to begin another as time not spent training after investing so much time is that much more 'wasteful'. I strongly suspect most of us miss the ends of our skills when RL gets in the way and we just forget ^.^
I think the Original Poster has a point when they say learning skills may push away newer players, but I also suspect older players will have a 'we learnt them, so must you' attitude about it. Hell, I probably will after i'm done with these blasted skills :P. I am aware that new players now start out with many times more skills that a year ago, so CCP are aware of the stress on us new players being put into a now mature game ...universe.
At least, I don't have to grind mobs to gain experience points. I can play FEAR or...or go outside even, brrr! and still have my character advance. Quite impressed with CCP about that, even though it means I can't grind myself even with everyone else... I think i am too old now and my time too important (god that sounds pretention, am only 23) to mindlessly kill mobs millions of times along with everyone else and call that playing a game...
ughh I've written too much
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.14 04:07:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Akita T on 14/09/2007 04:15:39
Learning skills and implants ensure the fact no matter how badly you funked up your initial character attributes, you still get a chance to make it work. They are the best "equalizer" this game has, short of the way all skills you need as a regular player get spread out across attributes.
The way new characters start (with one L4 and one L2 learning skill depending on school, plus L1 in learning itself) ensures that they're poised right from the start to train faster in their supposed initial specialisation. Not only that, but also the recent (well, granted, it will soon be one year, but it still sounds pretty "recent" to me) drop in prerequisites of advanced learnings made it even easier to get a quick boost.
Implant prices are also a joke nowadays, combined with the ease of ISK-making through missions. Heck, I could start a new alt char from scratch, don't help it at all from my main, only play 2-3 hours a day 4-6 days a week, and still end up with a head full of +3 implants and all L3 advanced learning skills (so, that's your +10 you asked for, and then some actually), while flying a battlecruiser steamrolling L3 missions, and all this within a month or so.
Heck, I kind of did that for my alt... well, true, I did help out financially. Know how long it took to finish all L3 advanced learnings AND also fly a satisfactory fited battlecruiser able to solo mission ? Two weeks.
That's right. TWO WEEKS. Out of which learnings took less than FOUR DAYS. My alt is now close to 8 mil SP. You know what learnings and implants it has on now ? Almost the same as in the fourth day, just trained it a tiny bit more, has all but charisma at L4 advanced. And THAT'S IT. Nothing else.
___
So what am I saying ? That this thread is pointless. Yes, it's merely you guys and girls (no offense) being stupid.
If you're a new player trying to sustain yourself, without any outside help, the WORST advice any older player can give you, and the WORST possible thing you could do is to train learning skills and ONLY learning skills in the first few days.
You don't HAVE to train the learning skills right away. Yes, it does help in the long run, sure. Operative keyword being long run.
If you can't make the diference between what's important NOW, and what's important LATER... then you already failed the biggest theoretical test EVE can actually offer. Why theoretical ? Because all the rest are practical tests, and they hurt much more when you fail them. _
EVE GOLDEN RULES | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
45thtiger011
Gallente The Perfect Storm
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Posted - 2007.09.14 07:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ArrogantGod I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board.
remove them from the market and increase the attributes of new players... DO NOT remove learning skills from people who have over 1.7mill SP in learning!
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Mr Toril
The Elear Eastern Star Federation
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Posted - 2007.09.14 08:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: 45thtiger011
Originally by: ArrogantGod I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board.
remove them from the market and increase the attributes of new players... DO NOT remove learning skills from people who have over 1.7mill SP in learning!
If CCP would remove the learning skills they would most likely give the sp back somehow. They cant just remove the sp from everyone.
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Zilkin
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.09.14 09:07:00 -
[8]
Remove the learning skills and give everyone +10 attributes and the sp used in learning skills back.
Also to whoever said it, learning skills don't equalize anything. The effect of poor starting attributes is always gonna be exactly the same. Character with 5 perception can gain 10 perception from learning skills but so can character with 12 perception.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.14 09:43:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Zilkin Also to whoever said it, learning skills don't equalize anything. The effect of poor starting attributes is always gonna be exactly the same. Character with 5 perception can gain 10 perception from learning skills but so can character with 12 perception.
Oh, *really* ?
( 3 base + 5 basic learning + 5 advanced learning + 5 implant ) * 1.1 learning = 19.8 (15 base + 5 basic learning + 5 advanced learning + 5 implant ) * 1.1 learning = 33.0
15 vs 3 -> * 5.0 (+400%) 33 vs 19.8 -> * 1.66 (+66%)
Basically, you cut the difference in training time between the lowest possible and the highest possible attribute choices TO ONE THIRD of the original difference. Now, if that isn't an equalizer, I have no idea what you think would qualify as one. _
[CNVTF] is recruiting | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Zilkin
Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.09.14 11:03:00 -
[10]
Yes the percentage difference changes but the actual affect of your starting of your attributes is only affected by the Learning skill.
With learning lvl 5:
Attribute with 5 points in it will give you 5.5 sp per minute if its the primary attribute.
Attribute with 12 points in it will give you 13.2 sp per minute if its the primary attribute.
This is what I meant. No matter how many attributes you pile on top of that it won¦t change what your starting attributes are doing.
The percentage difference you are talking, which is a equalizer as you say, would be even better realized just by raising every starting attribute by 10. So it¦s no really no reason to keep the learning skills around.
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Estel Arador
Minmatar EA Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.14 11:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Akita T Sure, it's not quite as tragic in EVE, nor is it an utter failure as it would be in a strategy game, as you don't "lose the game" if you do it... but you do lose out on all the early fun times.
I had lots of fun in my rifter for over two months while I trained my learning skills. I started training int & mem and learning skills immediately after starting and only trained a couple of other skills which I needed to fit some mods om my rifter. Once I had my adv int&mem (which required basics lvl5 then) to lvl4, I trained a few electronics and engineering skills, after which I continued with the other learning skills.
By the time I started thinking about moving up to cruisers, people who started later than me were flying around in battleships. I had great fun in my Rifter though and I believe I learned a lot in those days about how to fly a ship well and about game mechanics. I also love knowing I have trained only a bare minimum of skills at sub-optimal attribute levels. =AFK=
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 12:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: ArrogantGod I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board.
Cool. Do I get my 2M skillpoints back?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 12:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: 45thtiger011
Originally by: ArrogantGod I agree, learning skills should be taken out and base stats increased by 10 across the board.
remove them from the market and increase the attributes of new players... DO NOT remove learning skills from people who have over 1.7mill SP in learning!
So all the new players effectively get their learning skills maxed - equivalent to a ~5.5M SP headstart. Pretty nice for them. While the "old" players will have fewer stats... and the chance to expend another 3M SP to catch up with the new players?
It's gonna suck to be the guy who's one day older than "new".
The devs have admitted that learning skills were a mistake. I can see their point, but I'm not sure I wholly agree; my initial stat schoices weren't as bad as they might have been, but they're hardly optimal either. Learning Skills give you a chance to "smooth out" the effects of your initial stat choices. They also give you the choice of making a long-term investment early on, or taking a balanced approach, or going for 'early rewards'.
It should be noted that just giving a flat +10 to each attribute will suddenly make alts a LOT more useful. That hauler alt will train up Gallante industrial 5 in half the time or less... or would you propose "rebalancing" by letting the stat points take the place of the 800k SP worth of skills that new Kali characters get? Because with your proposal, new characters will effectively have a level of skills it would have taken a character made this time last year about 4 months to match. That's a hell of a headstart.
Note that every single character more than a year old started with the basic stat points and less than 100,000 skillpoints, yet somehow they made it through... Do we really need even more impatient, entitled players who want everything handed to them on a plate?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Koryvarn
Amarr Liberty Rogues
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Posted - 2007.09.14 13:23:00 -
[14]
Just give every character the basic learning skills to 4/5. The advanced ones cost a few mill each, so will be out of reach for the totally new player.
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WarlockX
Amarr Free Trade Corp Kinetic Maelstrom Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 15:16:00 -
[15]
I never understood why they couldn't just make the skills have some kinda secondary effect on your character then ppl would gain something out of training them and also would mean that choosing skills at the start would have a bigger impact on your character.
For instance.
Perception = +0.5% falloff per point (10% @ 20 points) Int = +0.5% Research speed per point Char = +0.5% bonus mission payout per point (10% @ 20 points) - this would make charisma not too shabby a skill.
----------------------------------------------- "I often quote myself. It adds spice to my conversation." |
Rashmika Clavain
Gallente Revelation Space
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Posted - 2007.09.14 16:06:00 -
[16]
I always say this to any new starter... don't bother with the learning skills at the expense of getting into a cruiser to run some level 2 missions (or provide support on a levle 4 in a gang). Once you start hitting level 5 or rank 4 plus skills, then look at learning.
The returns on low ranked/levelled skills are minimal compaired to getting into a decent ship for some gang fun. That's just my opinion though
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Maxpie
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2007.09.14 16:51:00 -
[17]
i usually advise new players to take the basic learning skills up to 3 or maybe 4, then train some skills so they can have fun in the game. i also tell them though that once they are more or less comfortable in a cruiser or whatever, to take them up to 4 or 5 and get the advanced up to 4. Also, it pays to follow the correct training 'pattern' for the skills.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Jandice Ymladris
Caldari United Peoples' Defense Coalition
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Posted - 2007.09.15 07:44:00 -
[18]
I`m a pretty new player; and have to say the learningskills can be a put off early in the game. I only trained a few at start (only op to the limit of max 1 day learning) Then I went for training ships & skills adequate for those ships; to ensure I could enjoy multiple aspects of the game when i would dedicate myself to learningskills.
I just started on maxing out learningskills; but the fact I can pilot a BC(drake:P); a industrial (mammoth) and stealthbomber/covops make sure I got a wide variety of jobs I can do; so not getting bored.
In short: for the sake of fun & enjoyment; train up other skills first before chasing your learningskills to skill 4-5(depending on your choice)
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Bossy Lady
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:49:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Maxpie i usually advise new players to take the basic learning skills up to 3 or maybe 4, then train some skills so they can have fun in the game. i also tell them though that once they are more or less comfortable in a cruiser or whatever, to take them up to 4 or 5 and get the advanced up to 4. Also, it pays to follow the correct training 'pattern' for the skills.
I usually advise new players to get at least 4+3 ASAP - to train short skills while they play, and run long learning skills while offline. That's only 240,000 + 120,000 SP, which shouldn't take more than 2 weeks, to get almost 70% of the advantage of putting the full 5M SP in. Meanwhile they start with a heck of a lot of skills and don't usually need that many to start doing stuff. Empire is big enough to occupy a genuine new player for a couple of weeks before heading in to 0.0.
I certainly advise them on the optimal sequence.
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Bowlo Cheeba
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.09.16 00:56:00 -
[20]
It seems to me like all the ppl who say : "Combat skills are more important, learning skills are boring and time could be better spent on other things" or something similar, are the ones who want the +stats, but do not want to spend the time training them.
These learning skills are like any other skill. They must be prioritized like any other. If you do not want to train for 1 week (or whatever it is for advanced stats) to get higher stats, then you obviously don't want the benefit of having higher stats, or else you think that some other skill is more important.
Getting +5 Willpower is just like training for 5% rate of fire, or 5% shield capacity, or any other skill. If you think that those combat skills are more important, then obviously 5% rof is more important to you than +5 Willpower. If you want the benefit of some skill, then it has more priority than other skills. If you want the benefit of learning skills, then you gotta spend the time on them just like you do on any other kind of skill.
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Giatshi
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Posted - 2007.09.16 03:15:00 -
[21]
The biggest problem with learning skills IMO are the people who hang out in the noob help channel telling ppl "they have to" train learning skills..BS BS BS
Train the basic skills to be decently competent then consider training some learning skills.I hear ppl also say if you dont start training them now that guy who does will have more sp then you a year from now.Uhm ya..so ****in what?...more sp is not indicative of comptence.Its a game it aint a freakin contest.If you clowns insist on showing of their e-peens to newbs in the rookie channels,tell them how to maximize on their fun,not how they too can have a big e-peen a year down the road.
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MasterBaiter
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Posted - 2007.09.17 11:20:00 -
[22]
i love it when people try to change the game to suit their own preference.
i had to do it, do it. and stop thinking of learning skills as 'wasted time'. i stretched mine across 3 months. a nice balance that keeps me in new toys while not neglecting to learning skills.
new players already have a good head start compared to the 'olden days'.
rabble rabble nerf nerf waaa waaaa waaaa listen to akita
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Luke Pubcrawler
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Posted - 2007.09.17 11:57:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Giatshi The biggest problem with learning skills IMO are the people who hang out in the noob help channel telling ppl "they have to" train learning skills..BS BS BS
I have to agree with this. Over the last week or so I have been training up a new alt so have spent some time in the newbie channels. The number of players who spout the "learning before all" line and the number of newbies who believe it is the real issue. I have tried to sell the merits of a more balanced approach, most learning skills to 3 then practical skills for a while, then a mix of the two until learning is at the desired level. That is what worked for me. However most have been indoctrinated into the all learning to lvl 5 asap mindset.
This is the real problem, not the learning skills themselves. The skills should stay it's the stereotyped advice that should change. No genuine newbie should be urged to go beyond level 3-4 in learning skills in the first couple of month play.
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Korosoka
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Posted - 2007.09.17 12:05:00 -
[24]
One simple solution that should require very little game change or programming is to simply allow that learning skills ONLY can be trained at the same time as other skills.
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Korosoka
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Posted - 2007.09.17 12:13:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Giatshi The biggest problem with learning skills IMO are the people who hang out in the noob help channel telling ppl "they have to" train learning skills..BS BS BS
Train the basic skills to be decently competent then consider training some learning skills.I hear ppl also say if you dont start training them now that guy who does will have more sp then you a year from now.Uhm ya..so ****in what?...more sp is not indicative of comptence.Its a game it aint a freakin contest.If you clowns insist on showing of their e-peens to newbs in the rookie channels,tell them how to maximize on their fun,not how they too can have a big e-peen a year down the road.
And I am one that used to be guilty of doing exactly that. But now I have learned the error of my ways, so I recommend that they train learning skills to II or III only for now, and get some money making and/or combat rat killing skills at the same time. And in 2 weeks if you plan to stay around, then get them all up to IV.
But also like some others here, I am not convinced that the current setup of making Learning skills IV almost a requirement is the best way to get noobies interested and would prefer some alternatives.
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Luke Pubcrawler
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Posted - 2007.09.17 12:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Korosoka Edited by: Korosoka on 17/09/2007 12:06:23 It's main apparent purpose now is as a time sink for noobies.
Only if people keep telling them they have to train them all right away. On paper that might be more efficient if the player will guarentee to be around for a year or more. In reality the balanced approach make more sense.
Unlike the time when I began playing a typical new character has the main learning skills for the path they have choosen at 2-3 to begin with. Getting to level 2 in the other 2-3 (many can leave charisma for a while) takes hours. If possible cybernetics to plug in the freebie implants from newbie missions. Frankly a new player should then concentrate on practical skills for few weeks, the loss in Sp will be irrelevant compared to the improved gameplay experience and increased cashflow the skills should allow.
As I said before the problem is lousy advice not the skills themseves.
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General Minos
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Posted - 2007.09.17 16:21:00 -
[27]
Learning skills are like power levelling in a game. People who take the time to learn learning skills are like people who play constantly to level up. You reward people for doing these things. If you don't train learning skills then you are just like a casual gamer and not playing for the long term, therefore you do not deserve to have higher attributes.
Suck it up.
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Lockefox
Caldari Lionsgate Ionic Dispersion
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Posted - 2007.09.17 19:30:00 -
[28]
My 2 isk.
Learning skills are a CHOICE just like any other skill in the game. And like real life, you have to make choices as to short term v. long term gain.
The best example is the difference between those who go to college and those who don't. The ones who don't tend to make more money to start and are better off in the short run, but the college grad tends to make many times more down the line. As a case and point. I was in a corp where the CEO started his char a day before I did and was equally, if not more, active. After 1 year I had over 3m more sp than him because I started training learning skills right after my trial rather than waiting.
Now, I encourage my noob friends to spend their trial skilling up interesting skills and if they decide to join to then focus on learning skills. Also, thanks to the pre-req change, it's usually a good idea to just train up both sets to 4 rather than the full 5 most vets (including myself) had to train.
Quit your *****ing and be thankful there is a way to expedite your skill trains at all. If you want to be useful in the long game, train your learning skills, if you want the quick reward of getting into big ships and being boned in the long run, don't train them.
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KeyserSoze
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Posted - 2007.09.17 22:20:00 -
[29]
people care more about the time invested in learning than ridding it from the game and getting more people who convert for more months.
things like learning skills add up for a new player and they leave
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Vicebane
Caldari Extreme Intentions Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.18 10:30:00 -
[30]
I started playing EvE about two weeks ago. Someone pointed me to EveMon which has been a great help in planning skills. So far I've managed to pull off 4/4 of all of my basic learning skills while getting into a properly fitted battlecruiser that can tank deep 0.0 rats effectively.
I don't see why anyone would jump right into advanced training until they had some method of generating decent income to support the more advanced skills. Whats the point of having advanced learning skills to 3 or 4 if you can only pull in 2-3 mil isk per day casually doing high security missions?
Why not put yourself through that pain while you are making 20-25 mil per day in a bigger ship so when you can finally use and fit one, you can actually afford it too?
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