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Karth
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:04:00 -
[1]
I DO NOT wish a frigate or a cruiser to be able to take on or kill a battleship one on one. I DO NOT wish a frigate or a cruiser to be able to take on or kill a battleship one on one. Notice I did not use the plural form of frigate and cruiser. Also, please understand that there is a difference between the words warship and battleship. When I say warships I am implying all the combat ships in Eve and when I say battleship I am implying the battleships on the game.
Hopefully the above will sink into the "slow" readers before posting comments. Now on to the post..
Warships are in dire need of being pushed into the roles that they are suppose to fill. At this time in Eve you are either flying a battleship or you are flying a one way trip to your clone. The warships need to be split up into filling important roles in a battlefield setting.
Frigates are small, fast, and are very low on damage output. On a battlefield it should be optimal to have frigates take out frigates. They should be specialy tailored to be very difficult for the cruisers to take out and highly difficult for a battleship to kill. Now when I say "highly difficult" to kill I am not implying to give frigates increased shields, armor, or weapons. What I am implying is that frigates should be very, very hard for a battleship to hit even after the lock has been made. Yes, I'm very well aware that frigate can use a microdrive to run, but that's not the point. Running from a battle and taking an active role in a battle are two very different things.
The cruiser should be the main warship of any battle. It should have an easier time at taking out frigates (still much more difficut the situation is now) then battleships and be able to group up to take on battleships. The whole battle should involve cruisers as playing the middle ground role; able to take on both classes of ships (battleships and frigates) but not specializing in taking out either one.
The battleship should have a horrid time taking out frigates. Almost to the point that a swarm (notice the word swarm, implying the coordinated attack of MANY) of frigates could cause a battleship to run. Cruisers should be a bit more difficult to hit for battleships then the current standing, but clearly able to overpower any and all cruisers in a one on one fight.
Here is a more visual demonstration for what I'm talking about:
Lets say that the ability to hit a certain class of ship is from 1 to 3 with 1 being the worst score to 3 being the best (and yes this is after lock has been made). I will also put in the damage types just to see an even scale; this will be from 1-3 as well.
Type of Ship doing the shooting Type of ship being shot 1-3, damage score 1-3 Type of ship being shot 1-3, damage score 1-3 Type of ship being shot 1-3, damage score 1-3
Frigate frigate - to hit 3, to damage 3 cruiser - to hit 3, to damage 2 battleship - to hit 3, to damage 1
Cruiser frigate - to hit 2, to damage 3 cruiser - to hit 3, to damage 3 battleship - to hit 3, to damage 2
Battleship frigate - to hit 1, to damage 3 cruiser - to hit 2, to damage 3 battleship - to hit 3, to damage 3
Notice how the battleship and the frigate have reversed scores? That is what would make a perfect battle ground. Of course I'm sure people are going to be upset at anything that would require a battle involving who has the bigger and properly geared battleship. Doesn't that come off as boring and bland?
I'm going to wait to see how things will pan out, but if the future is me being forced to use a battleship (to at least stand a chance in a battle) then me and my few friends will probally move on. No, this is not a threat it's just the simple truth. I and my crew enjoy using smaller ships; we don't want to be forced down the path of "bigger is better".
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:14:00 -
[2]
/sigh
Someone tell him.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:18:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aerick Dawn on 13/02/2004 18:20:48 I'll tell him..
it works like that right now...
I fly a frigate ALOT during fleet battles due to my recon/lockdown experience.
It takes AWHILE to kill me as long as I am paying attention.
I have been directly/indirectly responsible for taking out about 10 bs's with my frigate, with either reporting recon, or performing lockdown/dampening duties.
I have also seen 3 thorax's take out a battleship because he was not equipped to deal with small threats orbiting him with BLASTERS/WEBBERS/SCRAMBLERS/DRONES at point blank range.
Recon and directing fire is an artform, because you have many of the other gang member's lives in your hands. If you make a bad call to attack or a bad target call, it can spell the doom of your friends.
______________________
What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
Shauna
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:28:00 -
[4]
A couple caracels and a blackbird could give a lone battleship a pretty hard time too.
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Maximaus
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:32:00 -
[5]
give a kestrel a bunch of cruise missiles and some launchers and lets see how low its damage out put is as u put it |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:40:00 -
[6]
Quote: A couple caracels and a blackbird could give a lone battleship a pretty hard time too.
2 Blackbirds can kill a battleship if the pilots know what they're doing.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:42:00 -
[7]
Quote:
Quote: A couple caracels and a blackbird could give a lone battleship a pretty hard time too.
2 Blackbirds can kill a battleship if the pilots know what they're doing.
Yeah, but it's nice having the pure power of the Caracal to hurry it along in case drones get involved
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Karth
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:44:00 -
[8]
How does it work the way I posted? Because a battleship was using long range weapons and had trouble locking onto smaller frigates flying around him? I know that it takes a while to lock onto frigates in some situations, but I'm talking about the actual shot missing.
Recon and "locking-down" ships is nice, but those are issues that don't have anything to do with what I am talking about; which is direct combat, ie firing a weapon and taking fire. Yes, I understand that stopping a ship dead in the water with electral gear is wonderful, but cruisers and battleships can do the job better.
Maximaus, in the grand scope of things frigate ships have a low damage output compared to the other two ship classes.
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pooti
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:47:00 -
[9]
enemy caracals are really just resupply ships
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Kunming
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:49:00 -
[10]
I 100% agree with your ideas Karth. In the alpha stage of the game battleships (aka BSs) were supposed to attack stations, and cruisers should be the backbone of any battle. Also frigates were supposed to be support ships like EW or anti-missile, etc.
In the end the game came out to be neither what CCP wanted not what a VERY BIG portion of the players wanted!
With the player owned stations this might be changed, and the ships fitted to their roles... BUT!!!
But all the day #1 players will be dissapointed and will flame and threaten the forums about leaving. Thus there is no reason for this, because corps in cruisers wont be able to attack stations. The only problem (!) will be that the BS owning corps will have to fight a fair fight against a cruiser owning corps.
At the current state CCP want ppl go to 0.0 space but if u dont have at least a dozen BSs there is no chance of surviving for your corp!
If CCP balances ships as Karth mentioned above then a couple of ppl might leave but a lot of new players will come cause of the perfect balance. (If EVE gets to this point it will self advertise it self)
I know a lot of corps that want to go to 0.0 space and take on risks and have fun, but there is no point in wasting 20-30 cruisers by going there and getting "slaughtered" by 10 BSs. I hear from many ppl that if they won't be able to have some fun and goto 0.0 space to take on some risks, they will actually leave the game or take a long break from it.
And before you ppl post: "Then go join one of the mega corps!" But we all know that you are not very welcome in the club if you dont own a BS. Btw if u think I'm a carebear or a whiner go get a lvl 3 agent with "Find Person" and check where I am..
The game wasnt supposed to be like as it is now.
PS: Sorry that my ideas are a bit scattered but I had a hard day and hope readers will understand this.
Intercepting since BETA |
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Kunming
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Posted - 2004.02.13 18:56:00 -
[11]
Sorry for the double post but I needed to write some more after reading some other comments.
BSs are expensive, take time to build and can be lost very easyly. For most ppl it is a far dream to have a BS. Taking the main fighting from BSs to cruisers will encourage MUCH MUCH more players to combat. The BSs wont be useless ofcourse but will be used in large assaults against orbital targets.
Damn, this game could become much more fun if some people would sacrifice some of their pride!
Intercepting since BETA |
Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2004.02.13 20:48:00 -
[12]
Slap 6 target dampeners on a BB. Lock time on a frigate for that bs now goes to something like 15 minutes. Not Kidding.
______________________
What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.13 21:12:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 13/02/2004 21:12:49
Quote: But all the day #1 players will be dissapointed and will flame and threaten the forums about leaving. Thus there is no reason for this, because corps in cruisers wont be able to attack stations. The only problem (!) will be that the BS owning corps will have to fight a fair fight against a cruiser owning corps.
Sorry Kunming, but the battleship owning corp are fighting fair against a cruiser owning corp. They are using the ships they earned fairly with the skills they trained fairly to kill the cruiser corps and keep themselves from getting killed.
That's combat. Nobody sane gives you a 'fair chance'. You have to earn that through better strategy and tactics. And 20 cruisers versus 10 battleships can be a fair fight, depending on the cruiser pilots.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Marabeth
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Posted - 2004.02.13 23:42:00 -
[14]
I totally disagree with the idea of battleships being unable to target frigates. However there is a much more elegant solution that doesn't involve nerfing the huge hulks.
Change it so that heavy and medium turrets are less effective than present against smaller targets. That way you either fit your battleship with some light anti frigate weapons, take drones, or bring some cruisers/frigates as support (or of course you could die). What this doesn't do is force the battleship to be hopeless against frigates by virtue of hull type, but instead forces a lone battleship pilot to carry weapons to fight the lighter ship classes.
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Aneu Angellus
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Posted - 2004.02.13 23:44:00 -
[15]
Quote: enemy caracals are really just resupply ships
My thoughts exactly, but this one time i shot one down and there were just Defender's about 500 of them in there... i was a tad annoyed... ________________ Aneu Angellus Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
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Aneu Angellus
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Posted - 2004.02.13 23:46:00 -
[16]
Quote: Snip of Karth's post
Can i just say a word or two...
Smart Bomb... ________________ Aneu Angellus Vengeance Of The Fallen - WolfPack Military Captain
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Karth
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Posted - 2004.02.14 00:50:00 -
[17]
Quote: I totally disagree with the idea of battleships being unable to target frigates.
Battleships not being able to target frigates is not the idea I put forth. Battleships should be able to target frigates as they always have, but to actually land a hit on a frigate should be very hard for the battleship.
Quote: Change it so that heavy and medium turrets are less effective than present against smaller targets.
I like this idea.
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Ris Dnalor
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Posted - 2004.02.14 01:04:00 -
[18]
Check out this great post [ not mine ] in the idea lab. It adresses many of the issues you address, & methinks it addresses them fairly well.
LINKAGE -- Jump Drive Operation / Rank 5 / SP: 1280000 of 1280000
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Wolf DeRainger
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Posted - 2004.02.14 01:35:00 -
[19]
This is a debate that comes up time and time again. Now there is one point that evertbody seems to have overlooked. OK I may have to be corrected on this as I'm a hard and fast frigate pilot. Bur surley it's not the size of the ship that counts but the weapon. Somebody in a battleship with heavy turret weapons should have to be lucky to hit a fast frigate. Right, we all agree with that, well more or less. But if somebody was to outfit a BB with only small turret weapons, say med beam lasers and a few gatlings, shouldn't he be able to lock, load and cream any frig that came in range? The ship at the end of the day is only a platform for the weapons. so shouldn't the ability be based on weapons and not ship class?
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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.02.14 01:36:00 -
[20]
There has been large debates on "Weapon Class vs object size"
example thread
The outcome of this thread leaned towards object size being recognized on the battle field. Many peoples arguments were alligned to the notion that speed is enough. Indeed speed works for myself and a select few moderately well, However clearly and overwhelmingly, most battle fleets employ very few (ok extreamly few) frigate forces.
I think its all about diversity in pvp, BS Gank-fests are frankly boring and seriously limits huge chunks of potential strategy. This is very unfortunate.
Karth, i agree with your post :)
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Aerick Dawn
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Posted - 2004.02.14 01:51:00 -
[21]
As it stands now it is already extremely hard to hit frigates with bs's. Go try it out on chaos or whatever. Orbit the bs at 1k, fire up the afterburners or MWD or dont.
See how long you last with the other firing long range weapons at you. You will find you will last quite awhile, at least I have.
The only thing I am afraid of is cruise missiles and torps. They perhaps should have their tracking rate lowered as they are meant to be used on larger vessels and should not have the agility they have now hitting frigates orbitting at close range.
A BS pilot can always rig up a frigate defense, but ever seldom do due to the fact it can potentially minimize or lessen its ability to destroy larger targets for which they were meant.
______________________
What Aerick has been up to lately.. |
Jayad
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Posted - 2004.02.14 02:08:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jayad on 14/02/2004 02:10:59
Quote: A BS pilot can always rig up a frigate defense, but ever seldom do due to the fact it can potentially minimize or lessen its ability to destroy larger targets for which they were meant.
isnt that exciting :), under new size mechanic rules BS pilots would have to choose either equip small weapons to hit close/fast targets (Meanwhile reducing damage output), or equip a full damage load out, but with close frigate support.
Exactly what would be achieved with a "weapon class vs object size" mechanic.
I agree Aerick that MWD'ing to a bs and establishing an orbit of 5k makes the "L" weapons practicly useless, i have tested this myself with a corp m8. However other factors are at play during actual combat that will not make this sort of thing viable.
Or atleast not viable by anyone with half a brain given the current mountain of tools a BS has
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.14 04:32:00 -
[23]
Quote: Edited by: Jayad on 14/02/2004 02:10:59
Quote: A BS pilot can always rig up a frigate defense, but ever seldom do due to the fact it can potentially minimize or lessen its ability to destroy larger targets for which they were meant.
isnt that exciting :), under new size mechanic rules BS pilots would have to choose either equip small weapons to hit close/fast targets (Meanwhile reducing damage output), or equip a full damage load out, but with close frigate support.
Exactly what would be achieved with a "weapon class vs object size" mechanic.
I agree Aerick that MWD'ing to a bs and establishing an orbit of 5k makes the "L" weapons practicly useless, i have tested this myself with a corp m8. However other factors are at play during actual combat that will not make this sort of thing viable.
Or atleast not viable by anyone with half a brain given the current mountain of tools a BS has
Watch this video. Note the ship that Viceroy is flying. Then ask yourself two questions:
1) What could Viceory possibly be doing? 2) Why didn't he die?
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Keila Meriel
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Posted - 2004.02.14 05:32:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Keila Meriel on 14/02/2004 06:00:42 Okay, I may be new, but I can read, and I've read several threads on this issue. I'm also a pretty good strategy player (both strategy boardgames and computer strategy games like starcraft).
Although frigates are good at electronic warfare, they are limited otherwise. It seems like the problems with frigates are:
1) Although battleships target slowly, once targeted, frigates become very vulnerable, so frigates have only a small "window" to attack.
2) Frigates can't fight off drones.
Well, to address the 1st problem, how about adding more types of "movements". Right now there's only "approach", "orbit", and manual control (which is laggy). So how about:
- "evasive manuevering" - dodgy zigzag pattern designed to evade fire but overall slower than "approach" - "spiral" - just like "orbit" but ship spirals into the desired orbit radius instead of going straight toward the orbit radius
Okay, on to the 2nd problem. Since I've never been in any battles involving drones (or any big battles for that matter), so this is just conjecture - I'm guessing that the problem is that it isn't feasible to target all the drones. So:
- tweak the targetting system so that drones and non-ship objects (like cargo containers) don't count toward the limit. Well, there should be a limit so that it wouldn't completely cover up the screen, maybe 20.
Anyway, that's all I hafta say on this. Comments appreciated ;)
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.14 06:04:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Although frigates are good at electronic warfare, they are limited otherwise.
Hence the cries for removing the ability to launch cruise missiles from them. And you'd be shocked what a Rifter can do with 280mm Howitzers.
Quote:
It seems like the problems with frigates are:
1) Although battleships target slowly, once targeted, frigates become very vulnerable, so frigates have only a small "window" to attack.
No, bad pilots become vulnerable. Anyone kitted to target a frigate at obscene lock speeds is also kitted to blow very large holes through every ship class above them. Everyone else is barely a threat to a good frigate pilot.
Quote:
2) Frigates can't fight off drones.
The fact that a heavy drone can and will start hitting a target from 15km-20km away, despite having attributes that should make that impossible, says something: Frigates are fine. Drones are bugged.
A heavy drone has no chance of closing to attack range with their speed against a frigate's speed. But then they don't need to if they can tag the frigate from 15km.
Quote:
Well, to address the 1st problem, how about adding more types of "movements". Right now there's only "approach", "orbit", and manual control (which is laggy). So how about: - "evasive manuevering" - dodgy zigzag pattern designed to evade fire but overall slower than "approach" - "spiral" - just like "orbit" but ship spirals into the desired orbit radius instead of going straight toward the orbit radius
I believe TomB said before that they already tried that once, with strange results.
Seriously, watch the video linked above. A frigate is near impossible to hit with large turrets in the hands of a good pilot. Even using just the orbit command. Cruise missiles require a bit more talent to evade. But it is possible to fly directly at incoming cruise missiles and completely evade them with a frigate under the current mechanics. It's possible to do that with the slower, yet more agile heavies and light missiles.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Tatsu
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Posted - 2004.02.14 07:07:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Tatsu on 14/02/2004 07:11:00 Edited by: Tatsu on 14/02/2004 07:10:40 In my humble opinion frigates will never have a valid place in fleet battles. Hell most cruiser pilots have a hard of enough time. What im talking about isnt skill or potential damage or lack there of what im talking about is LAG. Have you ever been in a decent sized fleet battle? If you have how can you say frigates have a place there?
Lets face it fleet battles are just battleship graveyards until titans are put into the game and then fleet battles will be places where only titans will be seen.
Now in small engagements and piracy activity this is not the case because we are talking about far fewer ship numbers and a lot less lag.
------------------------------------ We do not ask for your poor or your hungry. We do not want your tired and sick. It is your corrupt we claim. It is your evil that will be saught by us. With every breath we shall hunt them down. Each day we will spill their blood ętil it rains down from the skies. One day you will look behind you and you will see we three, and on that day, you will reap it. And we will send you to whatever god you wish. |
Jayad
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Posted - 2004.02.14 11:06:00 -
[27]
Yeah Jash, you as an experianced player can pluck out examples where people have done great things in a frigate.
I respect your views, however its just not enough to have experianced people "only" be able to use frigates (Viceroy has quite a good pvp rep). I specifically dont like experianced players sounding of "noobs have no place in pvp". ALthought thats not exactly what your saying, it sure sounds like your implying that.
Normal frigate pilots need a place, i just think its a shame a portion of the eve population have already adjusted to the current setup, change/improvements are not accepted lightly :(.
I fear we could be heading the way of a few "failed" MMO's. Tatsu made the prophecy eariler.
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