Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Herring
Infinatech
7
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 23:28:00 -
[91] - Quote
Fiddler's take on the last call for a drake nerf, 2010
http://fiddlersedge.blogspot.com/2010/10/nerfing-drake.html |
HELLBOUNDMAN
AWESOM-O 4000 Robotics
16
|
Posted - 2012.01.25 23:43:00 -
[92] - Quote
Quote:Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at up to ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare.
Quote:There is no way to nerf the Drake in a large fleet context without nerfing it in a solo or small gang context where it has long been considered balanced by CCP.
Just wanted to make sure everyone read the KEY portions of that thread.... |
Herring
Infinatech
7
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 01:39:00 -
[93] - Quote
MinerChick wrote:Herring wrote:I keep hearing the recurring 'the minmatar will get nerfed next' in this thread. Utter rubbish.
Look at the general state of nerf history in the game as they pertain to races. Minmatar ships will not get nerfed whatsoever. You that suggest it will happen, are delusional.
There's no reason whatsoever to nerf drakes yet again. If anything they could use an explosion velocity bonus without an ehp loss. Myrm could use it's drone bonus boosted up to 100m3, without nerfing it in any other way.
Lowest common denominator nerfing is the most ******** thing you can do in game design. It's not fun for your players.
Minmatar have been nerf multiple times I really don't know what you are talking about. Minmatar ships where heavily nerfed by the big EHP buff that happened to all ships. They were heavily nerfed by the nano and speed nerfs. The were heavily nerfed by the stacking nerf on damage mods. It is called Flavor of the Month. People are sad because drakes getting nerfed and if you are a newbee I can see why. Gunboats take a much longer time to be good in because of the additional gunnery support skills. But changes happen, look at how a lot of people use to think AMAR Battleships were the bee's knees. The game cycles with gun's and missiles being better/worse and armor/shield tanking being better or worse and right now passive/active tanks with passive high EHP tanks being better for fleets when you have logi's healing you and running a rep being a thing that actually hurts your tank. The game is fluid not static and you will be trained for when said ship is better again.
You're talking broad nerfs to ships in every variety, not the specific 'we're gonna nerf this ship here, specifically, for this reason. ' Ehp, nano and speed nerfs affected everyone. But you never see ccp saying hmm....for it's class the hurricane has too much of a speed tank for all it's gank - whereas ships like the drake and the myrm have been nerfed specifically. Minmatar are ccp's baby. |
Caliph Muhammed
Caldari Investment and Security Industries Innovia Alliance
62
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 03:28:00 -
[94] - Quote
Duchess the alt needs to stop spamming the thread. Convoluted arguments and a transparent bias ad nauseum. Yes the drake does things well and there is nothing wrong with that nor does it need changing into yet another mediocre overpriced deathtrap with a bonus that no missile pilot needs.
Alt poasting is irrelevant. It's admitting you're trolling an opinion the majority disagrees with. And the tyranny of the majority is way better to live under than the tyranny of the minority. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
251
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 03:44:00 -
[95] - Quote
my l4 missions.... nooooo... |
Nykali
Cortex Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 08:23:00 -
[96] - Quote
See, once upon a time (2009 and prior), taking a Drake into PvP was something that got corps kicked from alliances. On the odd occasion one was brought in, it was HAM'd to the nines or shunned with cries of "Begone, carebear!" Drakes were seen as having abysmal DPS (or range, if HAM'd in a socially acceptable manner), pathetic speed, huge sig rad, and no purpose in battle outside of ablative bait.
They were easily blatted by sniper-bs squads, melee-bs squads and well... anything that could outrange them. Their only advantage was immunity to neuts and soaking up damage better applied to venting the hulls of other, less resiliant ships.
It's not unheard of for ships to be valuable in both PvE and PvP - it's when they're used en-masse that it looks bad. That being said - how often have we seen clouds of Canes (GSF), hordes of HACs, busloads of battleships, flights of Falcons, reams of Rifters, and many other alliterative examples of numbers overcoming shortcomings of a given ship class.
Altering the FOTM is just chasing your tail. Within a year of wormhole farming, we'll probably see Drakes laughed out of space by squads of Tengus. Boost the unused ships - particularly those not used in PvE OR PvP (Tier 1 BC's, Blops) so that they have a feasible role once more.
Truth be told, however, Canes are pretty darn awesome. When did you last see a Ferox?
|
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
255
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 08:36:00 -
[97] - Quote
Nykali wrote: Boost the unused ships - particularly those not used in PvE OR PvP (Tier 1 BC's, Blops) so that they have a feasible role once more I believe this was mentioned hand in hand with the Drake "nerf". |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
423
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 10:25:00 -
[98] - Quote
Nykali wrote:(...) Truth be told, however, Canes are pretty darn awesome. When did you last see a Ferox?
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=11653063
|
Nagrom Egroeg
27th Penal Battalion
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 10:48:00 -
[99] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote: Source: Eve Kill Top 20 ships in PVP
Rank Ships Kills 1 Drake 115829 2 Tengu 82773
The only reason these are at the top of the list is blobs, in which case they will actually be buffing the drake; but nerfing its solo capability.
HAM drake can already get missiles to reach point range so it really doesnt need a bonus for that. The resist bonus will make it a lot less survivable in solo situations, imo its not the drake that needs nerfing its the player base that seems to have someting about them that screams "omg a caldari ship thats good at pvp, its overpowered!!"
Ok so a drake can beat most ships of its size solo (even the harb) when flown right but get a ship close enough and its toast, in reality caldari ships should likely be made slower and gallente faster but in honesty i think they should just leave the damn ships alone and players should start looking at ways to counter them; start fitting sensor damps or something...
I guess something could be done about defender missiles as they are useless...
Don't nerf the drake AGAIN, in six months time people will likely still says its overpowered; i believe thats why gallente ships are so bad.. because they nerfed them into oblivion years ago and are now altering back the changes made then.
So you see CCP... in effect your doing a lot of work and spending a lot of time doing and undoing stuff, go on nerf the drake but i bet you will only nerf it til its useless and then in a couple of years time spend weeks on undoing the changes.
PS dont nerf minmater, there are many ships i just wont go near in my spec'd minnie ships.. drake being one of them (kinetis damage) and also myrm.. which im surprised isnt on the list.. oh yeh i forgot.. they nerfed that too...
|
Nagrom Egroeg
27th Penal Battalion
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 11:25:00 -
[100] - Quote
anyway a myrm or harb will eat a drake if its up close, the dps at range (and im talking point range here) is maybe about 50 or 60 less but the 'ewar' capabilities from midslots is so much better than the drakes. The cane is slightly different and i would take on a drake in one but fitted the standard way its bloody awesome: the tank on a drake with a point and web fitted is less than any of the other mentioned bc's btw, except the cane which has ever so slightly less but well... standard fit cane has better ewar capabilities than all the others.
They look balanced as it is, I really do think its a load of whiney wanna be pvpers that are getting upset with they're failfits and own failure to tackle and kill a 'pve' ship that 'obviously' shouldnt be any good at pvp.
I could not tell you the actual figures as eft does not show the same numbers as eve fitting screen so there would be a bit of give an take but armored up those 3 other bc's are better for solo work than the drake [just fyi harb pilots only dislike drakes cus a smart drake pilot will eep range; i know, i've done it and he whined like a little baby which was great fun til he called in his reps]
I really would ask CCP to concentrate on other aspects of the game, there is so much ship changing its getting stupid, for every buff or nerf something else changes; economically speaking they are spending waaaay too much time on attempted balancing than the actual game itself.
Drakes may be good in combat with a suitable pilot but lets not forget that ewar for the mids means it can be severely hampered up close. Blobs are blobs, and arty canes for instant damage are still better (imo) than drake blobs... its just almost everyone can fly a drake |
|
Imryn Xaran
Coherent Light Enterprises
22
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 13:36:00 -
[101] - Quote
Numbers can show anything.
Changing the way those numbers are presented tells a whole different story:
Minmatar: 308695 Caldari: 210891 Amarr: 119615 Pirate: 14129 Gallente: 11781
To me, that says Winmatar are over powered and Gallente are under powered.
I would look at ways to nerf Winmatar in general,(probably a small nerf to autocannons) and a buff to Gallente (possibly speed?)
Give it a few months and then see how it shakes out. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 13:48:00 -
[102] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:Hey Duchess Starshitforbrains
Why don't you come out to Gallente-Caldari low sec in your super Drake and I'd be more than happy to show you just how "noob fit" my 2 HML autocane really is .
In fact,Just come out ,if you think I am so new...I'd be happy to "school you" on just how little you know what you are talking about.
lol internet spaceship tough guy |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
106
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 19:59:00 -
[103] - Quote
I lost several IQ points trawling through the last page of rubbish, so rather than my usual point-by-point post (which gets ignored anyway, by morons like the OP) I'll just say this:
Does anyone actually have any reasonable evidence for this change breaking the Drake? Bearing in mind the fact that a post-nerf Drake will have better long range performance, full selectable damage type, similar EHP to the other battlecruisers and can still fit both tank, gank and EWAR without having to compromise.
That really doesn't look too broken to me. |
HELLBOUNDMAN
AWESOM-O 4000 Robotics
20
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 20:16:00 -
[104] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:I lost several IQ points trawling through the last page of rubbish, so rather than my usual point-by-point post (which gets ignored anyway, by morons like the OP) I'll just say this:
Does anyone actually have any reasonable evidence for this change breaking the Drake? Bearing in mind the fact that a post-nerf Drake will have better long range performance, full selectable damage type, similar EHP to the other battlecruisers and can still fit both tank, gank and EWAR without having to compromise.
That really doesn't look too broken to me.
I'm going to repost these quites cause you seemed to have just simply skipped over them.
Quote:Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at up to ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare.
Quote:There is no way to nerf the Drake in a large fleet context without nerfing it in a solo or small gang context where it has long been considered balanced by CCP.
Now, just in case you don't understand what that is saying I'll dumb it down for you.
The drake is fine in solo or small gang pvp.
In mass numbers the drake is extremely powerful.
To balance this CCP must address the fleet and not the ship.
There were other comments on that link stating that several other ships in the game have been in that same situation before. Snip bs's, and whatever else and eventually, players have found a way to counter it.
Essentially...Give it time and it will correct itself.. Someone just needs to find a better fleet makeup, which will eventually be considered too powerful and people will want to nerf it, then another fleet balance will be found that will counter that, the people will cry nerf again. It's a never ending cycle. Just look at what happened to Gallente ships... They were powerful, they got nerfed, then they sucked, now CCP is trying to fix it.
So in general, nerfing isn't always the answer. You can't nerf something based on one single aspect of the game when it is balanced for other aspects of the game. That's how you cause an even worse imbalance.. |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
106
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 22:08:00 -
[105] - Quote
Quote:In mass numbers the drake is extremely powerful. If you can't see how having the best EHP of all the BCs (by far) coupled with high DPS and range flexibility doesn't make them just as good in small gangs as in large, then I feel deeply sorry for you. One little line about how "CCP thinks they're fine in small gangs" doesn't make it true.
Quote:Snip bs's, and whatever else and eventually, players have found a way to counter it. Actually, while these were never really OP - they got nerfed anyway via scan probe changes. Counters to Drake blobs do actually exist already - they just involve ships that are 3-4x the price and skills required. Bit of a problem there, wouldn't you say? The fact is, the Drake is OP when you compare it to other BCs. The fact there's a battleship based counter isn't really relevent.
Quote:So in general, nerfing isn't always the answer. You can't nerf something based on one single aspect of the game when it is balanced for other aspects of the game. That's how you cause an even worse imbalance.. Want to know how to make things even worse than a (fairly light) nerf? Indiscriminate buffing. CCP laid a blanket buff on Minmatar, and we got the hilariously overpowered bullet spewing abombinations we all know and cross trained for today. BCs are already overpowered in general, buffing the other 7 while leaving the Drake alone can't be good. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 22:56:00 -
[106] - Quote
Spugg Galdon wrote:For the uninitiated idiots who think that resistance bonuses actually give you 25% better resists let me explain something. They don't.-á
The Drake's resists will not go down by 25%. They will actually only drop by an average of 8.175% actual (dual invul DC II fit).-á Seriously. This is a BUFF! Moar DPS. No longer stuck in kinetic damage type. Faster missiles. Forget the resist bonus. Take the buff and stop moaning.-á
Actually the TRUE resist bonus is a function of the percentage change of REMAINING damage. This can look quite low but be quite high. For example a 1 percent bonus added to 90 percent resists is actually a 10 percent resist bonus. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:04:00 -
[107] - Quote
HELLBOUNDMAN wrote:Quote:Drakes on their own are reasonably balanced. When you get 50+ of them all buffer tanking and alpha striking people at up to ~85km as the current FOTM strategy is out there, this underpins their usefulness (max buffer for sig/speed tank and max range with same damage) so this is a scenario specific issue to large fleet warfare. Quote:There is no way to nerf the Drake in a large fleet context without nerfing it in a solo or small gang context where it has long been considered balanced by CCP. Just wanted to make sure everyone read the KEY portions of that thread....
And as small gang warfare consitutes 90 percent of PVP, nerfing it to "balance" a very small part of pvp whilst unbalancing it for the vast majority of pvp is simply ludicrous. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:19:00 -
[108] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:
And as small gang warfare consitutes 90 percent of PVP, nerfing it to "balance" a very small part of pvp whilst unbalancing it for the vast majority of pvp is simply ludicrous.
please tell me how the proposed changes would in anyway make the drake unbalanced
im all ears |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:31:00 -
[109] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Ramadawn wrote:Hey Duchess Starshitforbrains
Why don't you come out to Gallente-Caldari low sec in your super Drake and I'd be more than happy to show you just how "noob fit" my 2 HML autocane really is .
In fact,Just come out ,if you think I am so new...I'd be happy to "school you" on just how little you know what you are talking about. lol internet spaceship tough guy
Lol, well if your gonna call someone a pvp noob, you BETTER be willing to put your mony where your mouth is. Having NO measurable combat experience herself, and making comments which show a general lack of knowledge of PVP game mechanics; makes duchess big mouth's comments morinic to begin with.
|
LeHarfang
Intersteller Masons Wonder Kids
25
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:33:00 -
[110] - Quote
Those numbers only tell that these whips are mostly used, not that theyre better.
I mean, if the caldari pilots would stop using goddamn missiles and train their rail guns (and use ships like the ferox, the rokh, the naga, etc.), they would realise they have more ships in their arsenal. Luckily, with the hybrid boost, it contributed to increase the use of these ships (remember those numbers have been took on a long period of time ie as couple of years, lots of changes have been made since)
I do agree though that because of their high alpha, minmattar ships are the most used in PvP and the ennemy have virtually no means of defending unless they use the same kind of strategy. |
|
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:35:00 -
[111] - Quote
Ramadawn wrote:
Lol, well if your gonna call someone a pvp noob, you BETTER be willing to put your mony where your mouth is. Having NO measurable combat experience herself, and making comments which show a general lack of knowledge of PVP game mechanics; makes duchess big mouth's comments morinic to begin with.
from what I can tell, duchess actually has an understanding of a wide range of pvp (read what he says in other threads as well)
all you've done in this thread is complain and provide no good reasons as to how this is even a "nerf"
you're being close minded as hell and not really seeing the true potential of this proposed change |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:39:00 -
[112] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Ramadawn wrote:
And as small gang warfare consitutes 90 percent of PVP, nerfing it to "balance" a very small part of pvp whilst unbalancing it for the vast majority of pvp is simply ludicrous.
please tell me how the proposed changes would in anyway make the drake unbalanced im all ears
Read my first post
Read my post on why long range missle bonuses are bad bonuses
This will answer your question.
BTW what is the raw damage of 7x tech 2 HAMs with RAGE missles? Whats their base range with skills?
I mean actual damage, not EFT BS. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:45:00 -
[113] - Quote
Are you brain dead or something? Your first post boils down to "hurrrrrr its one of the few caldari ships used, leave it alone." You realize it can be used and be OP right?
The tank on the drake will go down marginally. HAM setups will be much better (oh god you might have to fit a web or painter? how horrible). So you won't have an 85k EHP Tier 2 bc anymore. What you will have is a Tier 2 bc that can take advantage of both short and long range weapon systems quite effectively. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.26 23:59:00 -
[114] - Quote
XXSketchxx wrote:Are you brain dead or something? Your first post boils down to "hurrrrrr its one of the few caldari ships used, leave it alone." You realize it can be used and be OP right?
The tank on the drake will go down marginally. HAM setups will be much better (oh god you might have to fit a web or painter? how horrible). So you won't have an 85k EHP Tier 2 bc anymore. What you will have is a Tier 2 bc that can take advantage of both short and long range weapon systems quite effectively.
No, I am not brain dead, as my ability on this forum to BOTH present data AND anylize it shows.
YOU, on the other hand, apperantly possess the attention span and memory of a trampoline bound hippo giing directions to an invisible Giraffe....( or your average CCP game desighner on any given day of the week.) Take your pick
My argument is fully explained....read IT! |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
142
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 00:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
I'll give you credit for creative insults
But your argument is still trash.
The propose drake changes are kinda awesome and you're kinda brain dead if you can't see that |
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
107
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 15:28:00 -
[116] - Quote
Quote:No, I am not brain dead, as my ability on this forum to BOTH present data AND anylize it shows. I also presented data with an accompanying analysis - you ignored it. I also posted a rebuttal of every argument you made, point by point - you ignored it. I also posted accurate stats of the post-"nerf" Drake, showing in numerical terms that you're so fond of why it wouldn't be broken. You ignored that as well.
The only thing you've "shown" in this entire thread is that you have no idea how to fit or use a Drake properly, or even any basic understanding of how other people fit and use Drakes.
You're not even pretending to debate this any more, you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you". That's why you're a moron.
And for the record, if and when this change hits - I might just start flying Drakes again. The HAM fit will be a lot more interesting, and as I have a clue how to fit mine it'll still have a solid tank. |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
152
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 15:46:00 -
[117] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you". That's why you're a moron.
pretty much this
Quote:And for the record, if and when this change hits - I might just start flying Drakes again. The HAM fit will be a lot more interesting, and as I have a clue how to fit mine it'll still have a solid tank.
As awesome as this is, it makes me kind of sad :(
The HAM drake will further outperform the sacrilege as a brawler.
|
Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
107
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 15:52:00 -
[118] - Quote
Quote:The HAM drake will further outperform the sacrilege as a brawler. Hmm, debatable - it'll be more range-flexible than the sac but the gap in tank between the two ships will be reduced. The full selectable damage type really does tread on the Sacrilege in a big way though - that ship badly needs another low. =/
Edit: Yeah looking over that ^ you're right - it's not really debatable at all, the Drake does gain an even larger advantage. Still, hopefully that'll get looked at in the next round of balance changes. |
Ramadawn
Quantum Cats Syndicate
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 18:40:00 -
[119] - Quote
Duchess Starbuckington wrote:Quote:No, I am not brain dead, as my ability on this forum to BOTH present data AND anylize it shows. I also presented data with an accompanying analysis - you ignored it. I also posted a rebuttal of every argument you made, point by point - you ignored it. I also posted accurate stats of the post-"nerf" Drake, showing in numerical terms that you're so fond of why it wouldn't be broken. You ignored that as well. The only thing you've "shown" in this entire thread is that you have no idea how to fit or use a Drake properly, or even any basic understanding of how other people fit and use Drakes. You're not even pretending to debate this any more, you're just sticking your fingers in your ears and going "lalalala I can't hear you". That's why you're a moron. And for the record, if and when this change hits - I might just start flying Drakes again. The HAM fit will be a lot more interesting, and as I have a clue how to fit mine it'll still have a solid tank.
Actually I just got tired of talking to people who are rude and ignorant.
You think that by calling people names and insulting them untill they stop talking to you, you are WINING a debate.
Your not, your just showing yourself to be sad pathetic people that no one wants to talk to.
This is a dicussion about imaginary space ships, get a life already... |
XXSketchxx
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
155
|
Posted - 2012.01.27 19:15:00 -
[120] - Quote
you're* |
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |