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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.16 16:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 16/02/2004 16:19:54
the problem lies in missiles, fix missiles and the raven is an awesome ship.
if raven had missile rof + dmg bonus and cruise missiles moved at 3200m/s instead of 1600m/s the raven would be great.
as far as ravens speed/mass/scanning resolution/signature radius is concerned
i think the raven comes dead last in too many categories.. it's the most massive tier2 battleship, tied for the slowest, lowest scanning resolution, and highest signature radius.. caldari ships certainly need a 'weakness' but does it need to be dead last in all of these categories?
caldari ships have a long targetting range but no weapons to capitalize on it as missiles suck as long range weapons..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.16 17:51:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 16/02/2004 17:53:14
i'd reduce the signature radius on the raven to 500m, increase it's speed to 120m/s and lower it's mass a little bit..
that combined with fixing missiles and perhaps another bonus for missiles like DMG or something would make the Raven pretty sweet.
i'd take the scorpion shield bonus for the raven over the hybrid one too though..
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.16 23:33:00 -
[3]
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i see you never gone head to head with a raven before.... it's nigh unklillable and it kills any other bs with cap and shield to spare, let alone in fleet battles.
out of curiousity, what makes the raven unkillable? it's basically a tempest with worse bonuses and worse in just about every regard.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 01:42:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 01:43:09
honestly the more low slots you have the better of a shield tank you are, an apocolypse can out shield tank a raven any day.
raven should get its hybrid bonus swapped for a shield bonus, and they should fix missiles.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 01:49:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 01:51:40
apoc = cap bonus
apoc = 7 low slots / cap relay
apoc + XL booster + EM/Thermal Ward + Shield Amp = way better shield tank than a raven
CAP = SHIELDS = TANK.
(oops, apoc has 7 low right?)
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 12:01:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 17/02/2004 12:11:37
BOTTOM LINE
MISSILES ARE INFERIOR PRIMARY WEAPONS ON BATTLESHIPS
-insanely costly to manufacture (50 to 100 times more than large ammo)
-very slow -- thus, poor DoT -- especially at long range
(so what good is the 'advantage' of having the very long targetting range of Caldari ships if missiles suck at long range???)
-the blast radius makes it impossible to fight in empire if you are involved in a corporation war (CONCORD GANK)
-the blast radius takes out incoming missiles (your own and allies), thus makes it impossible to missile ships to focus fire on targets
They just total garbage in battleship combat if you rely on them as your primary weapons.
TomB has seemingly acknowledged this and we can just only hope that he has the wisdom to make Caldari ships viable again and gets missiles up to par with turrets.
If more missile skills are needed for missiles to get that balance, by all means, i'll be the first in line to purchase and train those skills.
I like my Raven, I just wish CCP would fix it already.
9 months and still waiting....
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:32:00 -
[7]
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and why should cruise be the fastest missile?
same reason large turrets have the longest range, you need long range for battleship pvp, and slow missiles don't cut it at long range for the reasons ive probably stated 100 times now
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.17 21:48:00 -
[8]
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and why should cruise be the fastest missile?
same reason large turrets have the longest range, you need long range for battleship pvp, and slow missiles don't cut it at long range for the reasons ive probably stated 100 times now
okay... but it would be better if the heavy missile was number one missile against frigates? so a heavy missile need to be fast, and probably much more agil then the cruise missile...
smaller missions should be faster, but cruise missiles are generally what i feel are lacking because they're too slow to cover distance in long range engagements (which is how most pvp is fought).
if they could work it so that cruise missiles aren't overly effective vs frigates yet can cover distance quickly and strike other battleships, it would be perfect.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 03:52:00 -
[9]
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Remember missiles eats no energy when launched+ hit every time automatically( dealing max dmg at every range)+you can chooose wich dmg you want to do ( with a gun you can not choose wich type of dmg yuo do)+ the only weapon you can fire (fof) when you are jammed.
You could say the same for projectiles. Projectiles can choose what kind of damage they do and use 0 cap as well. Aside from the Raven, missiles ROF is insanely high, atleast 15 seconds on seige/heavy launchers.
Missiles don't hit every time, missiles can easily be neutralized with defenders and smartbombs. Try a m12 with defenders or a medium smartbomb on autorepeat sometime.
Perhaps Dominix/Scorpion should get 1 more high slot (non launcher/turret) for better missile protect (put a smartbomb there). I think at the very least the Dominix should get a 7th utility high slot.
FOF are quite useless, I suggest you try to use them before you comment on FOF.
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These are really big advantages.Frankly i used to kill any other bs in a Raven and stopped flying it for another secret :) reason.
In 1v1 combat at about 20-25km a Raven is pretty formidable, though it still delivers damage quite slowly, it can take a hell of a beating. Then again so can the Apocolypse, and it delivers much more DoT.
However in fleet combat (where it MATTERS) the Raven is currently a joke.
There are a lot of flaws in missiles right now, which I've stated previously.
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The missiles may be needing some little boost but thats all imho.
big boost, more skills for missiles, cheaper, fast, ect.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:04:00 -
[10]
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Only torps now kill other missiles, cruises make no splash dmg
heh, sorry but you're wrong, do show info on every missile, they all have a blast radius, albiet small, yet it seems to be enough to take each other out quite often
focusing fire on ships (which is ESSENTIAL IN PVP) with missiles, you basically wind up blowing each others missiles up making focus firing with missile ships near impossible.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 11:17:00 -
[11]
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Hmm really? The cruise splash is so small now i though it is neglectable...
it's 250 meters, not much but still enough to take out friendly missiles striking a target unfortunately.
if you launch 4 heavy missiles at nearly the same time you you will see only 1 hits and the first one to strike takes out the 3 launched with it 
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.18 12:02:00 -
[12]
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Edited by: Psychopath on 18/02/2004 12:00:07
If you guys take your ships into TQ and not do everything by chaos setups you will see how strong a raven is 1v1. An apoc to go 1v1 would need a warp scramble and probably a sensor booster which leaves it 2 MED slots. This is enough for a shield booster and a hardener. This setup would be useless against a raven with a tanked shield.
If you use your chaos apoc setups 1v1 on TQ what is the bs going to do? WARP AWAY
So stop living in fantasy and accept that a raven is a very good pvp ship and is fine as it is.
Raven certainly can hold it's own in short to midrange 1v1 engagements, but this is about fleet combat, where missiles fall quite short in effectiveness compared to other weapons.
The Raven, is really an OK ship, it's missiles that are the issue.
That hybrid range bonus needs to be changed to a shield bonus though IMO. Raven really has no use for that bonus at all.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
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