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murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:30:00 -
[1]
While the ship stats can always be changed, it is never too early to start analysing the data that is presented to us, and the implications that it will have on our most beloved game in all the internets.
I'll start with the T2 Black Ops ships first, with the rest of the ships to follow. Yes, I know that ship stats can possibly be changed (and hopefully will), but we can extrapolate quite effectively if we look at CCP's historical precedents and make a few assumptions about the direction they're going to take.
General changes to T2 Black Ops ships compared to their T1 counterparts:
They all have -20% Shields/Armor/Structure. They all have reduced Sig Radii and slightly increase Scan Res. Slightly reduced lock range, increased number of targets able to be locked, same sensor strength, reduced inertia modifier, and slightly increased resistances which vary by type and amount per ship.
Here are the KEY changes for the four different races:
Sin (Dominix variant): +25m3 Drone bay. What this means: nothing. You can carry an extra five light drones, an extra heavy drone or whatever. Doesn't improve a thing. 7/6/6 Slot layout, -2 Turret hardpoints. What this means: very large reduction in tanking power, and a big reduction in firepower. Note that all Black Ops ships will usually reserve a high slot for a cloak.
Shield tanking will be a very poor option for most Black Ops ships, as the shield recharge rate for all four ships has been reduced by a large amount compared to their T1 counterparts. The +1 midslot adds more versatility to the Sin, but it's the only T2 Black Ops ship that doesn't get an additional slot (in any location) and loses two turret slots without gaining any additional offensive hardpoints.
Unless CCP adds some really unorthidox bonuses to the ship, or changes it from it's current form, it will have the most reductions of any of the four ships.
The Panther (Phoon variant): 8/5/7 Slot layout, +2 Turret hardpoints, -4 missile hardpoints, and +15m/sec (165m/sec) velocity!!! Holy cow!
The Phoon gains a midslot, keeps all the rest, loses it's missile abilities, but it's weapon systems are now no longer split between two types, so the bonuses that it *does* get will be more focused and effective. Did I mention it's 165m/sec BASE SPEED?! Wow. Oh, and it still has it's awesome 175m3 drone bay. Minmatar win *huge* here.
Widow (Scorp variant): 7/8/4 Slot layout, -4 Turret hardpoints (who cares), +1 launcher hardpoint, +1 high slot. A more focused Scorpion with the big bonus of an additional missle hardpoint that essentially amounts to a 20% damage increase over a traditional Scorpion, assuming you're mounting cruise missiles. Big buff. Caldari wins.
Redeemer (Geddon variant): 8/4/8 Slot layout, -1 Turret, +100 CPU, -3000 Grid, +1 midslot, +12m/sec velocity (137/sec). The reduction to six turrets hurts a little bit, but WOOHOO!!! A fourth mid to fit a cap injector! And it STILL has EIGHT LOWS. Right now I'm wondering what the DPS difference is between six turrets and three damage mods (Redeemer) and seven turrets and two damage mods (Megathron). I'm thinking it's much closer than you think. Plus the big range advantages of lasers. WOW.
This thing is going to be a -slightly- less powerful Blasterthron that cloaks. HUGE win for Amarr here.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:30:00 -
[2]
reserved
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:31:00 -
[3]
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:32:00 -
[4]
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Ogdru Jahad
Amarr Vendetta Underground Rule of Three
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:43:00 -
[5]
errr 4th?
umm seriously... looking forward to your view and reactions... -
At last the Gallente can finally lay claim to saying... "my DICtor" is bigger than yours.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:44:00 -
[6]
Hrm...interesting so far. Continue. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Zosana
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:46:00 -
[7]
Caldari wins? Lol. The Widow won't be getting much damage out of those launchers with its lows filled with SDAs. Not much point in fitting it for gank I predict, with regular BS resists as well as less shields and as many mids as a Scorp.
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Cadiz
Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 00:46:00 -
[8]
Who wants to bet that the Sin will end up being a covops-cloaking, sensor-dampening, jumpdrive-capable Dominix? ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 01:46:00 -
[9]
Originally by: murder one These are supposed to be (sort of) mission running ships? LOL? Take a look at the Sensor Strength and the Sig Resolutions for a second. Half the Sensor Strength? Another 20-25% more Signature Resolution? If anyone knows anything about probing out mission runners, it's me, and I gotta tell you, these things are gonna be CAKE to probe out compared to any normal T1 BS, or any other ship for that matter, barring capital ships.
Anyone with enough ISK to afford one of these things when they come out better know how to make it harder to be scanned down, or these things are going to die the moment they hit low-sec or 0.0. They may have been designed that way to discourage their use in 0.0 macro-ratting operations as well. Personally, I'm waiting for their bonuses to become known first. ------------ Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Freya Selene
Infinitus Odium The Church.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 01:57:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Freya Selene on 05/10/2007 01:58:02 Hi, may i cry with you?
1) CCP said in other posts its all test. Nothing is set in stone. 2) These things happend before and got changed bigtime before they went live. 3) Increasd cargo space... where else you gona put your jump fuel? 4) Can i cry with you about something based on speculations?
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murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Freya Selene Edited by: Freya Selene on 05/10/2007 01:58:02 Hi, may i cry with you?
1) CCP said in other posts its all test. Nothing is set in stone. 2) These things happend before and got changed bigtime before they went live. 3) Increasd cargo space... where else you gona put your jump fuel? 4) Can i cry with you about something based on speculations?
You're an idiot. No one is crying.
Jump fuel? You're mixing up battleship classes (you idiot). The jump fuel goes in the ships that don't have increased cargo space.
I prefaced my entire thread with the statement that yes, I know things are going to change. But I also said that we can still get a really good idea of where things are headed if we look at the stats we currently have.
The last time ships were introduced to Eve, they ended up being within 95% of the starting designs. So no, I don't expect them to change much.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Freya Selene
Infinitus Odium The Church.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:24:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Freya Selene on 05/10/2007 02:24:00
Originally by: murder one
You're an idiot. No one is crying.
Jump fuel? You're mixing up battleship classes (you idiot). The jump fuel goes in the ships that don't have increased cargo space.
I prefaced my entire thread with the statement that yes, I know things are going to change. But I also said that we can still get a really good idea of where things are headed if we look at the stats we currently have.
The last time ships were introduced to Eve, they ended up being within 95% of the starting designs. So no, I don't expect them to change much.
If you call yourself a no one, go ahead.
Yes you are crying about something thats in test fase like its being allready implemented.
If you noticed this is the general forum? If you wana cry about testing and development, this is the wrong place.
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Nariana Verex
Amarr Foundation of Extropian Independents
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:39:00 -
[13]
I was just curious; don't the Caldari get a new railboat?
Or is that going to be reserved for the T2 Rokh, when and if it ever comes? :)
Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space. |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Nariana Verex I was just curious; don't the Caldari get a new railboat?
Or is that going to be reserved for the T2 Rokh, when and if it ever comes? :)
Amusingly, all *four* of the new Caldari ships (the two T2 BS, the heavy interdictor and the recon frig) are all missile ships.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Zantrei Kordisin
True Centii
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:53:00 -
[15]
Why is everyone trying to compare these ships when we haven't been given info about the bonuses, which CCPers have already indicated are key?
Pretty funny really.
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Ruciza
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:53:00 -
[16]
No analysis, lots of opinion. Especially your call for offensive capability on EW frigs is amusing. Waste of time. You know nothing. Return when we have the bonuses. And don't call it "analysis" if you only want to whine.
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Nariana Verex
Amarr Foundation of Extropian Independents
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Posted - 2007.10.05 02:56:00 -
[17]
Originally by: murder one Amusingly, all *four* of the new Caldari ships (the two T2 BS, the heavy interdictor and the recon frig) are all missile ships.
Just doesn't seem right, does it? The heavy interdictor, and the raven T2 battleship I could see using missiles. I mean, come on, that's just bloody obvious.
Wasn't the Scorpion originally the Caldari railboat? Or am I misremembering?
Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space. |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:11:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Nariana Verex
Originally by: murder one Amusingly, all *four* of the new Caldari ships (the two T2 BS, the heavy interdictor and the recon frig) are all missile ships.
Just doesn't seem right, does it? The heavy interdictor, and the raven T2 battleship I could see using missiles. I mean, come on, that's just bloody obvious.
Wasn't the Scorpion originally the Caldari railboat? Or am I misremembering?
It was/is. But for the T2 version of it, they removed all the turret slots and added another missile hardpoint.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:36:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/10/2007 03:43:42
The most pertinent bonus on Marauders (former "Violator") they could get is a Role bonus : +100% damage for <weapontype>. This instantly converts 4 into 8 turrets, 5 into 10.
That being said, yes, I do agree, the Golem (i.e. T2 Raven) will be the mission-runners ship of choice, even if you have to swap from 3 BCUs to 2 BCUs. Not only that, but with 4 instead of 6 (or 7) launchers, it should be trivially easy to fit. Gogo missionrunners.
Although, the sensor thingy... not so nice, indeed. ___
Or, you never know... since we do have a AWU V skill requirement, I wouldn't be too surprised if they get no role bonus, but instead a highslot "siege-like" module (without the "set speed to zero" effect, and probably using a lot less or a lot cheaper fuel) that will grant them any of the "missing things", from weapon damage to extra sensor strength and so on. Heck, there might be several different modules that go in there with different "compensations" (from +80% weapon damage and +150% sensorstrength on one, to maybe +120% weapon damage an +50% sensor strength on another... or completely diff. mods for each aspect... who knows). _
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:48:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Zantrei Kordisin Why is everyone trying to compare these ships when we haven't been given info about the bonuses, which CCPers have already indicated are key?
Pretty funny really.
You really think that CCP is going to make ships that are so completely random with their bonuses that it will completely negate any possible amount of estimation on our part?
The Black Ops ships are going to have one or two offensive bonuses, or maybe none. The Marauder ships will have some sort of double damage bonus to take into account their reduced turret/launcher count.
I'm sure the Black Ops ships will get bonuses to cloaking and probably jump drive operation as far as fuel consumption or range is concerned. The Marauder ships will possibly have a tanking bonus or something.
But between these few bonuses, all the bonuses will be used up, if they keep it to four per ship. Maybe they give each one five or six, but that would be breaking away from established CCP convention, and I don't see that happening.
The recon frigs are the biggest wildcards, as they could have EWAR cap use bonuses to help with their lousy cap recharge, or they could have bonuses similar to the cruiser sized recon ships.
Either way, I don't think that we're going to see recon frigs with a quadruple damage bonus and Black Ops ships with range and tracking bonuses for mining lasers.
Unless they significantly re-purpose the ships, I think that their overall performance is going to stay pretty close to what they are now. CCP has been messing with these ships for months. They're not going to release ships that are at 60-70% of what they want. Where they are now is their 99% mark. Don't expect them to change much.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:51:00 -
[21]
It is a good thing we were shown this earlier.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:54:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/10/2007 03:54:48 Yeah, now use "that" to look for any new siege-like modules, stat Personally, I find it tiresome to showinfo:xyzqt look, wait, close, showinfo:xyztq+1, look, wait, close, rinse and repeat ad nauseaum. _
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 03:59:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 05/10/2007 03:43:42
The most pertinent bonus on Marauders (former "Violator") they could get is a Role bonus : +100% damage for <weapontype>. This instantly converts 4 into 8 turrets, 5 into 10.
That being said, yes, I do agree, the Golem (i.e. T2 Raven) will be the mission-runners ship of choice, even if you have to swap from 3 BCUs to 2 BCUs. Not only that, but with 4 instead of 6 (or 7) launchers, it should be trivially easy to fit. Gogo missionrunners.
Although, the sensor thingy... not so nice, indeed. ___
Or, you never know... since we do have a AWU V skill requirement, I wouldn't be too surprised if they get no role bonus, but instead a highslot "siege-like" module (without the "set speed to zero" effect, and probably using a lot less or a lot cheaper fuel) that will grant them any of the "missing things", from weapon damage to extra sensor strength and so on. Heck, there might be several different modules that go in there with different "compensations" (from +80% weapon damage and +150% sensorstrength on one, to maybe +120% weapon damage an +50% sensor strength on another... or completely diff. mods for each aspect... who knows).
Well, while I agree with your points, if you look at the grid/cpu changes to the Marauders, I think that on balance they'll be just has hard/easy to fit as T1 BSs are.
Your ideas about special siege-like modules are pretty interesting, but I think that's far too radical for CCP (with respect to new ideas and straying away from convention) and probably a little impractical. These ships are supposed to be high endurance, 'long range' ships, operating far from home for extended periods.
What are your opinions about how the Black Ops BS are going to be used? Personally I think that the Jump Bridge/Jumpdrive abilities will be largely ignored by the majority of the players that use them, and we'll see them in the same roles as Recons are currently- as perma-cloaked harassment machines, ganking anything smaller than it, and hiding from everything else.
Even if these BS are underpowered by BS standards, they're still battleships. I'm sure they could solo anything BC sized and smaller with ease. The trick will be getting the lock time fast enough to scram the targets. In that case, the Caldari and Minmatar ships look like prime candidates for that role. Amarr, not so much due to only four mids, and the Sin, well, it's just too ugly to fly. It will definitely have the weakest tank of the bunch. I really don't care for the Geddon model or lasers in general, but the Redeemer looks to be really brutal for a short ranged gank machine. Especially now that it has a 4th mid for an injector.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Stellar Vix
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.05 04:01:00 -
[24]
First off good anaylsis on the battleships however you seem to miss a couple of points on the other two ships
the ewar frigs are PURE ewar they wont be fitting cloaks at all thier bonuses for ewar would put thier stealth cousins to shame, i can only predict that we will see a normal bomber as well in the long run which is a mean little missle chucking assault friggy but for now we are getting the pure ewar frigate the next in line is a pure ewar cruiser.
The heavy dictors are assumed to take up the role of warp scrambeling capitols with the antiwarp field which is self nerfing, instead of the light dictors (which bubble will get nerfed back to the original function)
anyways we wont know anything until the ships bonuses are listed.
SWA PVP |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 04:47:00 -
[25]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/10/2007 04:55:04
Well, if I remember correctly, CCP stated that the "black ops cynos" will be only used by Black Ops ships to bring in MORE black ops ships into the system. That pretty much implies (at least I hope that this is what it means) that Black-Ops Cynojump/Jumpbridging will NOT show up on the overview of everybody in the system... would kind of defeat the purpose if it did, no ? But it also means you are only limited to transporting black ops ships this way.
With a smallish cargohold, and with a fuel cost (probably adjusted as quadratic) with regard to range jumped, even if they could jump anywhere in the galaxy, that would kind of defeat the purpose of trying to exploit them as mega-safe transport vessels... so I'd have to agree, they'll mostly be used as recons, with the added benefit that only ONE of them needs to run a blockade safely, then all the rest can join from the next system or a few systems away. _
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
Tsukiko Ishida
Amarr Emanation Of Malevolent Outcries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 04:58:00 -
[26]
The Marauders are the next level in the command ship line up....FYI
As for bonus's, I hope they have it so you can run multiple command modules with out the use of a command processor, per the level of the marauders skill.
Though, setting them up as skirmish ships would be cool. Better warp speed and velocity with good resits and medium damage output. It would be a good wolf pack ship.
FAILEDÖ |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:00:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tsukiko Ishida The Marauders are the next level in the command ship line up....FYI
FYI, they're not. They're next in line to HACs. frig->cruiser->bs, AF->HAC->Marauder CSs are just a mix of HAC (or logistics) with BCs. They're a deviation from the line. _
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:03:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Stellar Vix First off good anaylsis on the battleships however you seem to miss a couple of points on the other two ships
the ewar frigs are PURE ewar they wont be fitting cloaks at all thier bonuses for ewar would put thier stealth cousins to shame, i can only predict that we will see a normal bomber as well in the long run which is a mean little missle chucking assault friggy but for now we are getting the pure ewar frigate the next in line is a pure ewar cruiser.
The heavy dictors are assumed to take up the role of warp scrambeling capitols with the antiwarp field which is self nerfing, instead of the light dictors (which bubble will get nerfed back to the original function)
anyways we wont know anything until the ships bonuses are listed.
Thank you for your complements, but I would like to point out that the skill requirements for the ewar frigs are exactly the same as those for Covert Ops frigs. That is, the frigs that use Covert Ops cloaks. I think that they will be using cloaks as well.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:05:00 -
[29]
Sin has 400m3 drone bay
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
http://dl |
murder one
Gallente Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Feng Schui Sin has 400m3 drone bay
Yes, I know. Please re-read my original post. I noted that it has +25m3 of drone bay space over and above that of the Dominix, which has 375m drone bay. Hence, I know that it has a 400m3 drone bay.
[07:13:55] doctorstupid2 > what do i train now? [07:14:05] Trista Rotnor > little boys to 2 Fleet Combat Ships |
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