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Vajak
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Posted - 2007.10.18 12:31:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:05:28 Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:04:33
Originally by: Vajak
To pay back the time invested you need to train skills using that particular attribute as primary attribute for
u obviously didn't read the total of this post before replying, or you would notice that most of those who vote FOR adv5 don't give a flying crap about "pay back" time or "having advantage over <whoknowswho> that did his char the same day and has adv4"
and as said, the more new skills are released, the more *gasp* "advantage" the adv5 guy gets.
let me put it this way. a mate of yours is quitting the game, he has 2 chars to give away for free, both ONLY have learning skills, one is ADV4 and one is ADV5... which one would you take if you had to chose 1 of them, huh? the adv5 one, right?
/sarcasm on see? thats it, end of this stupid discussion, i win this post and the internetz ^^ /sarcasm off
LOL thats all I have to say
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:06:00 -
[92]
ôMy comment isn't clear, anyway, abstract that it's for black ops, just imagine the "release point" is when you create your character.ö There is a big problem with that. You assume you could train the pre regs before me. But you wouldnÆt have as you found out the pre regs at the same time as me and the point you found out was after I already had adv5. In reality we both would have started to train the pre regs at the same time. Why donÆt you remake your chart assuming thatÆs the case?
You chart is correct if you started the pre reqs before I had adv5. But thatÆs not the case.
ôFor sure, the 2 line gonna cross in the future. Early if the red line don't do learning at all.ö As we both started at the same time the red line crossÆs when I learn blackops. Or if we both start pre regs at the same time before I learn backups.
ôCouple facts first: (632235*5)/(24*60*1,65)=1330 days or 3,64 years for all adv 5ö ôSo its not automatic 3 and half years gone since I trained these = benefit gained.ö Accept thatÆs wrong, as it doesnÆt factor in new skills. Payoff is the point when you have more useful skillpoints due to adv5 over adv4. Your math doesnÆt show that point as its not factoring in new high value skills.
Factor in new skills and the benefit gained is less then 1 year. Your math is wrong because of that.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Nabar Phargal
Gallente Anqara Expeditions The OSS
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:29:00 -
[93]
Pottsey's definition of useful skillpoints: Points in any skill that directly relates to the role a character is performing now. As soon as a character changes roles any skills it trained up that don't now relate are worthless.
My definition: Any skillpoints in skills that improve how your character performs or adds an ability. The only worthless skillpoints are in skills with partially completed levels or Learning. |
Dretzle Omega
Caldari Psychedelic Party Stellar Economy Experts
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Posted - 2007.10.18 13:46:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Nabar Phargal Pottsey's definition of useful skillpoints: Points in any skill that directly relates to the role a character is performing now. As soon as a character changes roles any skills it trained up that don't now relate are worthless.
My definition: Any skillpoints in skills that improve how your character performs or adds an ability. The only worthless skillpoints are in skills with partially completed levels or Learning.
Pottsey's whole argument hinges on the assumption that the adv 5 character had no other skills he wanted to or should train to advance his current career of interest. So, instead of putting skill points into, say, Corporation Management, when she'll never run a corporation (just an example, don't jump on me if you're CEO or anything), she puts the skill points into adv 5 so she can train newly released skills faster.
My only problem with that argument is I find it hard to believe in the foreseeable future that I'll be running out of skills I want to train to advance my character and my professions. If it's possible to run out of such skills, then she's right about it allowing her to get ahead by training new skills faster. ------------------- 4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.18 14:37:00 -
[95]
It all comes down to what your profession is. If you a combat pilot chanceÆs are you have a years worth of gunny skills unless you an old pilot like me whoÆs ran out.
A miner or cargo pilot on the other hand can max out there profession in less then 1 year (I believe not ran the numbers). In which case adv5 is good as they can then learn the new cargo ships due in November faster.
But I have to agree for some professions like missiles or turrets there are so many skills that in the short tearm you are better off without adv5.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Dubious Drewski
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Posted - 2007.10.18 16:17:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Dubious Drewski on 18/10/2007 16:17:38
Pottsey! Argh! You're unbelievable!
look at your modifications again.
Sure, you would train black ops faster than before. That's clear. But the red bar is still on top of your blue bar. That means I have more skillpoints than you.
While you might be able to fly mauraders before I could, I would be able to fly them better than you, because I have all those additional SPs in support skills, if that's what I wanted.
Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last
And that's why I love that homely boat! |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.18 17:51:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Pottsey on 18/10/2007 17:53:02 ôBut the red bar is still on top of your blue bar. That means I have more skillpoints than you.ö How can you not understand this yet? You have less skillpoints then me and less useful skillpoints. The blue bar is on top not the red. As I said before I didnÆt have tine to edit the bars. Look if the only skills I have to train are low value skills then adv5 is worth getting as I get high value skills before you, long before you if you donÆt have the pre req skills. For example I skip training building skills as I maxed out on turret skills and support skills. You train some useless skill that I donÆt care about while I get adv5. This now means I will have both drone bandwidth lvl3 and black ops lvl5 while you only have blackops lvl 4 and drone bandwidth lvl 0 as you still training blackops lvl 5. I have all the support skills you have and more due to drone bandwidth so I fly better.
Or if you donÆt have the pre req skills for blackops then you take longer to get those pre req skills then me. I can have black ops trained while your working on the pre req skills. As you didnÆt know which pre req skills to train while I was getting adv5. So we both had to start onthe pre req skills at the same time.
öWhile you might be able to fly mauraders before I could, I would be able to fly them better than you, because I have all those additional SPs in support skills, if that's what I wanted.ö No. I have the same support skills as you that apply to the ship and more as I also have the new support skills you donÆt. You have less useful skillpoints overall so your behind. You donÆt have the new support skills which I do have.
Here is a very messy chart without the blue bar changed. http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=chart1rh6.jpg
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Cortei
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:36:00 -
[98]
Meh, I'm too busy to do the NPV calculations that would show whether training adv. to 5 in the short term would pay off immediately if a plan was followed.
All I know is that my three year plan is saving sixty days due to my maxed learning skills and keeping +5s implanted two-thirds the time. I'm betting on +6s and +7s being offered within the next three years as well, that would decrease the time an additional 10-20 days to 70-80 days faster (assuming +6s/7s implemented within eighteen months and using them for a year). That's not taking into account the addition of skills I want to train but don't exist. Who knows, it might end up being more.
Bottom Line, I feel that its worth it to me. Logic doesn't really come into play, even though it looks like it should. If you look at most of the skill point group leaders or overall skill point leaders though, they got adv learnings to five in the stats they feel are worthwhile.
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Dekron Z
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:56:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Cortei Meh, I'm too busy to do the NPV calculations that would show whether training adv. to 5 in the short term would pay off immediately if a plan was followed.
This thread is starting to sound too much like my lectures!
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Gavyndrel
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Posted - 2007.10.18 18:57:00 -
[100]
Edited by: Gavyndrel on 18/10/2007 18:59:56 You guys are all ultimately missing one simple point.
It is up to each individual player to decide what is the best course of action in regards to their learning skills training given their intended level of commitment to EVE as well as simply what is more satisfying for them.
I personally am satisfied training basics to 4 or 5, and advanced to 4 and leave them as that for long periods of time. That doesn't make me any more "right" or "wrong" than a person who prefers to train them all to 5 so as to enjoy the knowledge that they have maxed out their learnings and never have to look at that skill category again.
Why are some of you trying to impose what makes YOU happy in game on others?
It makes no sense.
My advice to Chimera would be this. At the very least train the basics to 4, and the advanced to 3. At that point decide how much more time you want to invest on raising your stats or if you want to dive right into training skills to have fun and worry about training up learning a little more later on.
Good luck everyone.
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Jack Target
Koshaku Interstellar Starbase Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.10.18 21:06:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Jack Target on 18/10/2007 21:07:05
I learnt all skills to advanced level 5 (except charisma) while I was learning the ropes at Eve University. I did this with implants.
Then I joined a PvP corp in 0.0 and I trained a little faster than my corp mates.
I always wanted to PvP after learning the basics at Eve Uni. It is only now with first-hand experience of 0.0 that I know what I need to train.
I can't use my implants in 0.0 for fear of them being distroyed. However, at least I managed to increase my attributes using the implants fairly quickly in the safer environment of high sec.
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Galan Undris
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Posted - 2007.10.18 21:46:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Galan Undris on 18/10/2007 21:53:32
Originally by: Pottsey There are what 20 new ships due out? The adv5 person is in a much better place to learn 4 or 5 of those ships then the adv4 person.
There's 20 new ships, but only what, 4-5 new spaceship command skills to operate them?
Fact is you can probably max those new spaceship command skills in about 120-130 days if you decide to do them all. Thats what, 3-4 days faster, with one extra attribute. Add to that a new set of skills has to be released within that time the advantage dissapears 3-4 days after the adv 5 guys have them maxed.
The support skills are all existing skills, so those have to be maxed for your argument to hold (as the adv 4 guy is more likely to have them maxed). You say you have all the support skills maxed, but who is more likely to AWU 5, BS5, jump drive calibration 5 (rank 10, 3 months just there), Cyno Field Theory 5 etc... those skills are all needed to "max" (or even fly in most cases) the new ships.
The Adv 5 guy is not "in much better place", he is in a slightly better place if he's been playing since early 2004 and the release of the next batch of high-rank skills is less than about 3-4 months away (I doubt there's anything that big coming so soon).
You make the assumption that all of those supports are maxed on both charracter, and new skills are released faster than they can be trained. Tell me this, how can a un-maxed player ever catch up on that? The new skills will always be ahead of him and sinking 65 days into adv skills means he just lets the train 65 days further ahead and pretty much contradict the argument to begin with, doesn't it?
If you have all of those at level 5 (you don't even have propulsion jamming 5 for the new t2 cruisers or even dictors, according to in-eve) then your argument holds, but who is most likely to have that? The guy with x days of effective training in those skills or the guy with x+65 days effective training in them. I think you're making some pretty extreme and somewhat contradicting assumptions here.
I believe that unless you start out with a maxed charracter you will not ever gain permanent advantage with adv 5 until you hit the mathematical payback.
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Dubious Drewski
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Posted - 2007.10.18 22:46:00 -
[103]
I agree, no one should be imposing their way of play onto others. That's not what I am trying to do. I am just trying to point out that spending time to get Adv5 instead of training regular skills directly, only pays off after a certain amount of time.
I have not directly insulted anyone on forums or in a game for years. I think it's childish and it's usually unecessary.
But Pottsey, I really want to insult your intelligence, I'm sorry. With such a broken sense of logic, I cannot imagine how hard post-secondary education would be, if you choose to go. I would like to explain to you how badly wired the logic-section of your brain is, but you probably wouldn't understand me.
With that said, Everyone: do what you want. All that matters is how much fun you're having. I've had enough of this thread and I ain't coming back! lol.
Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last
And that's why I love that homely boat! |
Ed Anger
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.19 04:16:00 -
[104]
yes, for the love of god and country, let this thread die.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.19 06:42:00 -
[105]
Edited by: Pottsey on 19/10/2007 06:44:52 ôI'm sorry. With such a broken sense of logic, I cannot imagine how hard post-secondary education would be, if you choose to go. I would like to explain to you how badly wired the logic-section of your brain is, but you probably wouldn't understand me.ö Its not broken logic it makes prefect sense if you could understand it. Instead of insults why donÆt you prove me wrong with facts? You havenÆt proven any of my points are wrong. My logic isnÆt broken its very good. I am well known for my logic. Post-secondary education was easy started my diploma at 16.
Look at it like this due to adv5 the 6+months of Blackops training I need will be far faster then adv4. I couldnÆt train those pre req skills instead of adv5 as I didnÆt know what skills I would need and secondly those skills where not out when I get adv5. So adv5 puts me ahead as I get into Blackops ships faster due to adv4 over adv5. WhatÆs wrong with that logic?
Getting Blackops faster and then moving onto the new support skills puts me ahead as I fly a new ship better with adv5 over adv4.
ôThe support skills are all existing skills, so those have to be maxed for your argument to hold (as the adv 4 guy is more likely to have them maxed). ô There are new support skills coming so they are not all existing skills. I even listed a new one in my example.
ôYou make the assumption that all of those supports are maxed on both charracter, and new skills are released faster than they can be trained.ö I assume some pilots like me focus and max out there current profession and support skills for that profession, some profession this takes less then 1 year. Then they donÆt know which pre req skills they will need so they get adv5 letting them get pre req skills and new skills faster once they find out what they are.
You seem to be assuming you can train all the pre req skills instead of adv5 but thats impossible most of the time.
For example I fly Command ships which are tougher and do more DPS then HACS. That means I have zero reason to get the HAC skills as a PvE pilot. Now ages after getting adv5 I find out I need 2 HAC skills for the new ship. I would never have trained those instead of adv5 (partly because HAC wasnÆt out) partly because I have no use for those skills.
öYou say you have all the support skills maxed, but who is more likely to AWU 5, BS5, jump drive calibration 5 (rank 10, 3 months just there), Cyno Field Theory 5 etc... those skills are all needed to "max" (or even fly in most cases) the new ships.ö All those skills you listed apart from BS5 came out after I got adv5 so I couldnÆt train them instead off adv5. Those are classed as new skills to me. New skills being any skills that come out after you get adv5. Any new skill you train pushÆs you ahead as you couldnÆt have trained them with adv4 instead of adv5.
AWU, BS5 are all support skills both the adv4 and adv5 guy could have. ChanceÆs are both the adv4 and adv5 guy donÆt have jump drive calibration 5 (rank 10, 3 months just there), Cyno Field Theory 5 as they didnÆt know they need them being battleship pilots. You seem to be assuming you know what skills your going to need for new ships before they come out. Yes if the adv4 pilot has all the jump drive skills he is better off. But thats not always going be the case. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.19 06:42:00 -
[106]
ôNo actually, you, even with your 65+M SP have still not maxed general skills in e-war and navigation Of course you will claim that those aren't interesting to you, but that would remove a large amount of SP from the added skills and make the potential advantage even slimmer. (And pretty much force you to train old stuff after about 1-2 months?)ö Navigation is maxed out for what I use and my play style. EW is useless for me I as PvE with this account the things that matter are maxed out. If and I stress If EW is low value then it makes far more sense to get Adv5 instead of EW. Then when I find out what pre reqs I need I can train those faster.
If I trained EW instead of adv5 guessing EW might be a pre req for Blackops then I would be in a worse situation then now.
and you don't even have the pre-reqs for the black ops and interdiction cruisers, all of which you could have trained to level 5 instead of the adv 5.ö My point was how could I have known to train those instead of lvl5? ItÆs impossible to known. Yes I donÆt have pre-reqs for the black ops I had no idea what the pre reqs would be. I could not train the pre reqs instead of adv5 as I donÆt have a crystal ball. If I did train something else apart from adv5 I would have gone for Remote Armor Repair Systems for my support ship.
So now I am in a situation where due to adv5 I can train the pre reqs and the new skill faster then if I had adv4. ItÆs going take over 6months to max out the prereqs skills if not longer. Spending 6+months training those skills with adv5 will mean I will finish them a long time over having adv4.
As I said before why would a none cap pilot have maxed out jump drive skills? Why would a none recon ship pilot have all the stealth skills maxed out? When something new and interesting comes out like Blackops adv5 lets you get the pre reqs skills and main skills youÆre missing faster.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.10.19 10:20:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Gavyndrel You guys are all ultimately missing one simple point.
It is up to each individual player to decide what is the best course of action in regards to their learning skills training given their intended level of commitment to EVE as well as simply what is more satisfying for them.
Not all :)
Quote from my second post [11]: "Much faster (adv. 4 -> adv. 5) is about 5% faster (for about 2+ months of training time). But please go for it if it suits your preference."
But - it is almost hilarious to witness Pottsey and friends vs against a lot of others. Especially since I am pretty sure they don't acknowledge each others different premises.
- Carebear Pirate - |
Taguchi Hiroko
Xoth Inc Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.19 11:27:00 -
[108]
train adv learning to 4, and cybernetics to 5 and put in those +5 or +6 implants for your empire carebear clone, quicker and more effective than training up adv learnings to 5.
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Kayna Eelai
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Posted - 2007.10.19 11:51:00 -
[109]
Pottsey needs to learn Quote: ADV QUOTING
to lvl5 ;) his lvl3 BOLD skills are a bit outdated ;)
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ChimeraRouge
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.10.20 04:30:00 -
[110]
I decided on basic to 5 advanced to 4 based on some common sense logic and some of the posts in this thread. I never thought this thread would get so out of hand. It's sad that many people in this thread have can't grasp fundamental logic.
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.10.20 09:12:00 -
[111]
Originally by: ChimeraRouge I decided on basic to 5 advanced to 4 based on some common sense logic and some of the posts in this thread. I never thought this thread would get so out of hand. It's sad that many people in this thread have can't grasp fundamental logic.
Good choice :)
Don't feel sad about the development of the thread. It's not exactly the first time this happens and, hopefully, not the last time either
- Carebear Pirate - |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.20 09:17:00 -
[112]
ôIt's sad that many people in this thread have can't grasp fundamental logic.ö I am still amassed so many people fail to grasp the logic behind how adv5 can be worth it in less then 3 years ItÆs not that hard to understand.
Sure for some pilots it is 3 years before its worth it. But can everyone please stop acting like its 3 years for everyone. ItÆs not.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Gwen Reinholds
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Posted - 2007.10.20 19:49:00 -
[113]
Here is what I think is best for players that are just starting out.
Train basic learning skills to 4. get whatever non-learning skills you need to build a capital of 50M ISK get advanced skillbooks and +3 implants - train advanced to 3 - train advanced to 4, and learning (the skill) to 5.
- focus on getting super rich so you can afford +5 mem/int implants - train basic learning skills to 5. - train SPECIFIC advanced learning skills to 5, like per and int.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.10.20 23:28:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Pottsey
I am still amassed so many people fail to grasp the logic behind how adv5 can be worth it in less then 3 years ItÆs not that hard to understand.
don't worry too much about that. i bet my arse that most of those are 2-3y. old players WITHOUT adv. who are realizing how much time they wasted due not having it, and now pay their anger on us because they're jelous of our awesome superior intelligence ^^
(let's see how many of those guys also fail to know what sarcasm is)
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Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.21 11:02:00 -
[115]
Edited by: Solant on 21/10/2007 11:04:18 Way too much crap in this thread.
TL;DR.
However.. Pottsey.. you are making an argument based on your own personal opinion and not on math/numbers.
You are right in saying that it is beneficial to train all your learning skills to 5, because yes if something new comes out and you already have the prerequisites, and so does someone else with Learnings 4, you will technically get in that new ship somewhat faster than them.
But.. for a few years.. they will still have more SP than you spent in applicable skills, that is, not training skills (because training skills give you no bonus aside from training time/stats).
Also... the amount of difference in training time is NOT weeks, and unless we're looking at a the last level of a rank 7+ skill, isn't days, either. 1 stat point will not change your training time by an enormous amount.
As far as new learning skills, or new skills in general, thats 100% hearsay, so unless you can toss down some concrete knowledge of the future in that regard lets avoid splashing misinformation all over a thread that was intended to advise new players how to go about training learning skills. I'd also be willing to wager than any new learning skills they ever add to the game will come with a prereq of Adv Learning 4, anyway, given current trends.
I still have to say I wouldn't recommend new players train all their learning skills right away.
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Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.21 11:12:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Kayna Eelai Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:05:28 Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:04:33
Originally by: Vajak
To pay back the time invested you need to train skills using that particular attribute as primary attribute for
u obviously didn't read the total of this post before replying, or you would notice that most of those who vote FOR adv5 don't give a flying crap about "pay back" time or "having advantage over <whoknowswho> that did his char the same day and has adv4"
and as said, the more new skills are released, the more *gasp* "advantage" the adv5 guy gets.
This thread was not created by you, so the fact that you "dont care" about the innate immediate advantage of keeping learnings at 4 really doesnt matter- stop screaming about it. If you dont care about that, FINE. GTFO of the thread and stop wasting everyones time. Other people want actual information, not your personal opinion and threatened epeen. All you are doing is trying to justify your own decision, which makes it look like you are unsure it was the right path in the first place. If you don't care, why are you still here?
Quote:
let me put it this way. a mate of yours is quitting the game, he has 2 chars to give away for free, both ONLY have learning skills, one is ADV4 and one is ADV5... which one would you take if you had to chose 1 of them, huh? the adv5 one, right?
Well, I would want to know what happened to the 3.5million SP the first character chose to not put into learning skills. If these skills had been applied to something I wanted, I would probably take the character with L4's, to be honest. If you are trying to compare to characters with ONLY learning skills to that level... obviously take the character with more skills and SP. This proves absolutely nothing and adds 0 to your argument, so why bother posting it?
Are you dense or something?
Quote:
/sarcasm on see? thats it, end of this stupid discussion, i win this post and the internetz ^^ /sarcasm off
You really don't win anything, because throughout the ENTIRETY of this post you have only looked at the situation from your side, and are a coming off as a blathering idiot.
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Kayna Eelai
Gallente GNATHIC
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Posted - 2007.10.21 12:26:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Solant
Originally by: Kayna Eelai Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:05:28 Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 18/10/2007 12:04:33
Originally by: Vajak
To pay back the time invested you need to train skills using that particular attribute as primary attribute for
u obviously didn't read the total of this post before replying, or you would notice that most of those who vote FOR adv5 don't give a flying crap about "pay back" time or "having advantage over <whoknowswho> that did his char the same day and has adv4"
and as said, the more new skills are released, the more *gasp* "advantage" the adv5 guy gets.
This thread was not created by you, so the fact that you "dont care" about the innate immediate advantage of keeping learnings at 4 really doesnt matter- stop screaming about it. If you dont care about that, FINE. GTFO of the thread and stop wasting everyones time. Other people want actual information, not your personal opinion and threatened epeen. All you are doing is trying to justify your own decision, which makes it look like you are unsure it was the right path in the first place. If you don't care, why are you still here?
Quote:
let me put it this way. a mate of yours is quitting the game, he has 2 chars to give away for free, both ONLY have learning skills, one is ADV4 and one is ADV5... which one would you take if you had to chose 1 of them, huh? the adv5 one, right?
Well, I would want to know what happened to the 3.5million SP the first character chose to not put into learning skills. If these skills had been applied to something I wanted, I would probably take the character with L4's, to be honest. If you are trying to compare to characters with ONLY learning skills to that level... obviously take the character with more skills and SP. This proves absolutely nothing and adds 0 to your argument, so why bother posting it?
Are you dense or something?
Quote:
/sarcasm on see? thats it, end of this stupid discussion, i win this post and the internetz ^^ /sarcasm off
You really don't win anything, because throughout the ENTIRETY of this post you have only looked at the situation from your side, and are a coming off as a blathering idiot.
was about to write some nice replies, but i'll sum it up: you're wrong. in every single point.
and that crap about i am looking only from my point of view? WRONG TOO.
1) evemon gives every1 chance to see all points of view you'd like to
2) some1 WITH adv5 has had adv4 before that, so he can actually argue about it. some1 WITHOUT adv5 has never seen it by himself, ergo he should, just like you mister smartass, STFU.
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Solant
Minmatar Ventis Secundis R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.21 13:38:00 -
[118]
Why would I need to see the skill trained in my skillbook to know exactly what it does? Its pretty straightforward what the last rank of advanced learning gives you. Its the same as every other rank. You can deduct exactly how it will affect your character using basic math.
You are so far off the plane of reality here... I don't even know what to say.
Best of luck, really. You're gonna need it.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.10.21 17:56:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Pottsey on 21/10/2007 17:57:08 ôHowever.. Pottsey.. you are making an argument based on your own personal opinion and not on math/numbers.ö No, its pretty much pure maths and numbers. I am assigning each skill a value of 1 to 10. Then comparing the skills I could train instead of adv5 to what I can train faster due to adv5. If you only have low value skills to train instead of adv5 and adv5 means you can train new high value skills faster or sooner. Then you end up with more high value skills due to adv5. If you have more high value skills your better off so adv5 has paid its self back.
Now itÆs up to each player how to assign skill value and that is personal opinion. Which is why I said only some people benefit from adv5 in less then 3 years. Some do not.
But the way I work out if adv5 is worth it or not is based on pure math/numbers.
ôBut.. for a few years.. they will still have more SP than you spent in applicable skills, that is, not training skills (because training skills give you no bonus aside from training time/stats).ö Yes true. They have more SP spent in applicable skills. But they can sometimes have less SP in useful skills and usefull skills is all that matters.
ôAlso... the amount of difference in training time is NOT weeks, and unless we're looking at a the last level of a rank 7+ skill, isn't days, either. 1 stat point will not change your training time by an enormous amount.ö It can be weeks over enough time, all depends how many skills are needed to be trained. If both players need to train the same pre req skills up starting from the same time then adv5 will be ahead for 6+months. Its not till adv5 stops training that adv4 catch's up and that might not happen.
ôor new skills in general, thats 100% hearsay, so unless you can toss down some concrete knowledge of the future in that regard lets avoid splashing misinformation all overö Its not 100% hearsay. I can name 5 new skills of the top of my head I know are coming out. There are more then 5 if you read into it. By reading dev blobs, interviews, Q&AÆs and looking on the test server you can learn about new skills that are due out. For example we know about Black Ops ships over 6 months ago and weeks ago we found out the pre req skills.
Your can never be 100% sure on what new skills are due out but you can be 90% sure with a general idea of what coming. If a dev talks about a new ship class due out in November then it can be worth getting adv5 so you can lean that new ship class. Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Mistole Melodius
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.22 07:34:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Mistole Melodius on 22/10/2007 07:34:31
Originally by: Pottsey Edited by: Pottsey on 21/10/2007 17:57:08 ôHowever.. Pottsey.. you are making an argument based on your own personal opinion and not on math/numbers.ö No, its pretty much pure maths and numbers. I am assigning each skill a value of 1 to 10. Then comparing the skills I could train instead of adv5 to what I can train faster due to adv5. If you only have low value skills to train instead of adv5 and adv5 means you can train new high value skills faster or sooner. Then you end up with more high value skills due to adv5. If you have more high value skills your better off so adv5 has paid its self back.
Now itÆs up to each player how to assign skill value and that is personal opinion. Which is why I said only some people benefit from adv5 in less then 3 years. Some do not.
But the way I work out if adv5 is worth it or not is based on pure math/numbers.
Mistole - Key here is YOU are assigning a skill with a value and your personal valuation may not be the same as someone else's personal valuations.
ôBut.. for a few years.. they will still have more SP than you spent in applicable skills, that is, not training skills (because training skills give you no bonus aside from training time/stats).ö Yes true. They have more SP spent in applicable skills. But they can sometimes have less SP in useful skills and usefull skills is all that matters.
Mistole - Again, your version of useful may not be mine. Key point here, my production / research / science toon does not have the same valuations of combat that my pvp toon does.
ôAlso... the amount of difference in training time is NOT weeks, and unless we're looking at a the last level of a rank 7+ skill, isn't days, either. 1 stat point will not change your training time by an enormous amount.ö It can be weeks over enough time, all depends how many skills are needed to be trained. If both players need to train the same pre req skills up starting from the same time then adv5 will be ahead for 6+months. Its not till adv5 stops training that adv4 catch's up and that might not happen.
Mistole - ./shrug if they start training at the same time then what ELSE did the person who was NOT training level 5 put points into? Because the time spent training level 5 is still time spent. Where did the person NOT training the level 5 skill put his points into? If he / she started training these pre req skills then the person spent training level 5 is behind from the starting line but will catch up.
ôor new skills in general, thats 100% hearsay, so unless you can toss down some concrete knowledge of the future in that regard lets avoid splashing misinformation all overö Its not 100% hearsay. I can name 5 new skills of the top of my head I know are coming out. There are more then 5 if you read into it. By reading dev blobs, interviews, Q&AÆs and looking on the test server you can learn about new skills that are due out. For example we know about Black Ops ships over 6 months ago and weeks ago we found out the pre req skills.
Your can never be 100% sure on what new skills are due out but you can be 90% sure with a general idea of what coming. If a dev talks about a new ship class due out in November then it can be worth getting adv5 so you can lean that new ship class.
Mistole - I personally do not agree with adv level 5 or bas level 5 myself (except learning) because if you plug in the point diff into Eve mon for say starting miner, to a hulk to a frieghter, the time diff spent adding 2 points into each attribute is not justified.
I will say that once you are in your "niche" then I would train to level 5 because there is no drawback once you are in your happy spot.
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