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bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 07:50:00 - [1] ratters/isk farmers/grinders...why does the logoff mechanic favor them so much? why every time you enter the system looking to kill the ratter, local warns them, they go safe and they can cloak so there is NO way to find them at all, or they just ctrl-q to log off since there is no timer to actually make it a challenge without any consequences? now, even if you do catch them by some miracle, they are usually stabbed. so why do the isk farmers have so many ways to just run away from combat even when you catch them with their pants down? is ccp's idea of a realistic cyberworld really like this, that people just turn the game off when theres signs of trouble? cut all action right there? seriously, make the npc aggro give at least a 5 minute timer in witch your ship is going to stay in space and being unable to cloak (or remove cloaks alltogether to use on ships that shouldn't be cloaked by nature aka covops, recons etc. )so you can try to find/probe the people out at least. make it interesting for the players that actually enjoy playing the game, not that are grinding isk 23 hours a day to sell on some website. as it is now, system totally invites every carebear to logoff on every sign of trouble. is this really working as intended?
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.15 08:52:00 - [2] So, lets remove cloak, add a timer to log off and make stabs force targeting range to 0m. Not sure how to handle FoF's, as they pretty much negate the penalty of stabs. Remove them also?. Then lets also force scramblers to be chance based along with webs, remove bumping as an option and make pockets in space where probes can't see you. Oh, and remove local or increase it to constallation.
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:55:00 - [3] Edited by: bornaa on 15/10/2007 09:59:59 Edited by: bornaa on 15/10/2007 09:56:03 jaketh take it as you wish and you probably heard this alot of times, but alot of eve mechanics are really **ty and if you gave up on making this game better and more fun i didnt. alot of stuff you wrote makes sense, alot of it doesnt. i dont mind any in game mechanics that much as long as people actualy stay in game and play instead of turn the game off as a tactic. hey, its a cyber world, if your a carebear, paly it smart. make safes, organise groups, rat together, have scouts, put bubbles on the gates... there are zillion ways to survive if you play the game smart. but noo lets just have poeople ctrl-q and its all good. ccp if you want a good mmo you should try to make it realistic and fix alot of **.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.10.15 09:59:00 - [4] Edited by: fire 59 on 15/10/2007 09:59:59 Remove cloaks from non cloak specced ship (recons,co ops etc would be left alone) or brutally penalise them for using them. I.E all weapons are offlined, can't move at all,% chance to explode . Aggro from npcs would be a good idea as well and while were at it, make cloaks on non cloak specced ships PROBEABLE . All the afk recon pilots and stuff wouldn't have to worry but the farmers, hahahahaha, diediedie. pauses to wipe foam from mouth As it stands you re right though, it's just too easy to be a farmer and be safe in 0.0 "Random Goon " - why dont you kick box me about it, after your dad has killed himself of course
Helison Gallente Times of Ancar Pure.	Posted - 2007.10.15 10:22:00 - [5] Hehe, nearly all your ideas are a bit extreme and would only lead to massive whining (not only by farmers). Well, for cloaking the solution is quite easy: Just make it possible to scan cloaked ships, but with a reduced signal strenght. I really hope that this will be introduced with Kali3. For logging off the situation is much more complicated as CCP has to find a good compromise between ppl who abuse logging-off as method for saving their ship and ppl who really need to go offline for RL-reasons. In my opinion it would be best to have a in the client visible logoff-timer for about 3-5min, after which your ships vanishes and your client closes.
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 10:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Helison Well, for cloaking the solution is quite easy: Just make it possible to scan cloaked ships, but with a reduced signal strenght. I really hope that this will be introduced with Kali3. its so damn easy to avoid geting probed out if you use just a tiny bit of your brain. why have it even more ezmode than that? and i agree loging off is tricky, but as it is, its so heavily abused that people wich get people log off on them all the time feel cheated. less of a big deal would be if people had to wait out their 5 minute npc timer before loging off (if they want to ofc) than some passionate eve player getting people logoff on him 4615757 times just as hes about to engage.
Amy Wang	Posted - 2007.10.15 10:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Amy Wang on 15/10/2007 10:57:40 1. Make non-covert cloaks take 50% grid and cpu (exception stealth bomber ofc) 2. Increase targeting range and resolution nerf on warp core stabs to 90% per module 3. Make shooting npc give full 15min pvp aggression timer to the player (not getting shot by npcs, just shooting them actively) Problem solved
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 11:11:00 - [8] Edited by: bornaa on 15/10/2007 11:15:50 Originally by: Amy Wang 3. Make shooting npc give full 15min pvp aggression timer to the player (not getting shot by npcs, just shooting them actively) good one. if you aggress rats yourself then you get the counter so people getiing randomly shot by them at gate dont get it. or give a 10 min one at least. i know people have to suddenly leave sometimes, but can you imagine how many times i had to wait out my 15 minute pvp aggro not to get probed out in space altho i really really had to leave? and pvp is something you cant control as well as you can control engaging a rat knowing you have to leave soon. pvp is harder to find, you can get engaged and it gives higher penaltyes. why? even more benefits to the farmers by current system. why ccp, why?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.15 11:41:00 - [9] The usual: "I want my playstile to rule it all". You essentially want to have a granted kill is you have someone in the same system in a ship not ideally fitted for PvP against your set up. No chance of escape. Verly lazy and not so bright. You will get your extra kill for the first week, then you will have only hunters in any low sec system, with the 0.0 systems closed down as much a spossible. People has adapted to the eccessive number of hunters in low sec, so low sec has already little non ganker population. Increasing the difficulty of living thre will only decrease further the number of potential targets. Your fun is killing another player ship but if, as you want, you could kill one player ship every 10 minutes, the targets will disappear in no time. There is no real cure for your problem, as any action to increase your chance of ganking will reduce proportionally or more than proportionally your targets. So the end result would be a identical or worse situation for you and for the targets.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:25:00 - [10] Originally by: bornaa Edited by: bornaa on 15/10/2007 09:59:59 Edited by: bornaa on 15/10/2007 09:56:03 jaketh take it as you wish and you probably heard this alot of times, but alot of eve mechanics are really **ty and if you gave up on making this game better and more fun i didnt. alot of stuff you wrote makes sense, alot of it doesnt. I was mearly trying to balance it out. You want people to be unable to hide/escape. You want people who log off to not dissapear for 15 minutes, giving you ample time to find and kill them, without them having a chance to defend themselves. If they stay and warp around or try to hide, you can probe them out and scramble them. They can't fit stabs to counter that, as they can't do ** with stabs on, so scramblers should then be chance based. Yeah, not everything is perfect in EvE, but you only suggest improvements that help the ganker, not the victim. So I suggested a balance.
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.15 13:34:00 - [11] So, let's see. You're complaining that PVE set up ships aren't sticking around to fight you in your PVP ship. Would you like for them to form a single straight line and warp to you as you crush them one by one so you can feel good about yourself? One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
Ava Luvlidai Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.10.15 14:05:00 - [12] I read in another thread (unsure where, sorry) about how if you shoot someone's can/wreck it's counted as aggression. So maybe a possibility would be when encountering logging farmers to check the belts to see if they left any wrecks behind - if they did and you're under the 1minute countdown voila, you have yourself an easily probable (that's probe-able) farmer. It doesn't solve the cloaking issue granted, but it's using game mechanics against them when they're so blatantly flaunting them. As for an NPC aggression timer I'd have to disagree, or at least make it perhaps 3-4 minutes instead so you don't catch out the legitimate ratters who for some reason have RL to attend to, but will give you enough time to probe out someone who's logged as soon as you entered local.
Badprop	Posted - 2007.10.15 14:08:00 - [13] I agree. It's different strokes for different folkes. A lot of unsuspecting ratters/ isk farmers are getting killed by 'pirates'/hunters. Hunters should not have it easy to find their prey. If logging off to protect your PVE set ship is the only method of escape, then let it be so. Or if you are willing to sacrifice a high slot to fit a cloak works for you, then do it like that. Some people don't like pvp but they want the 'risks' of ratting in 0.0 and mining in 0.0. Those ores and rats aren't spawned in high sec. Some peeps like to only do pvp and are constantly hunting. That's what they like. But to shoot at a 'canned lion' (lion tied with a chain to a tree), that's just way too simple. I'd say leave it the way it is. Let everybody play the game the way it makes them happy. It's supposed to be fun for everyone. BP
Dominator9987 Minmatar The Shambling Horde	Posted - 2007.10.15 14:14:00 - [14] Originally by: Exlegion So, let's see. You're complaining that PVE set up ships aren't sticking around to fight you in your PVP ship. Would you like for them to form a single straight line and warp to you as you crush them one by one so you can feel good about yourself? ooo ooo, can we tell him the cheat for godmode as well! :D
Icome4u Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.10.15 15:26:00 - [15] Leave the cloaks ***** alone. My Wyvern likes 'em. ______ Originally by:** Vyger If I lose connection while walking around a station will my avatar run off in a random direction and go hide in a corner?
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 15:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Jaketh Ivanes I was mearly trying to balance it out. You want people to be unable to hide/escape. You want people who log off to not dissapear for 15 minutes, giving you ample time to find and kill them, without them having a chance to defend themselves. If they stay and warp around or try to hide, you can probe them out and scramble them. They can't fit stabs to counter that, as they can't do ** with stabs on, so scramblers should then be chance based. Yeah, not everything is perfect in EvE, but you only suggest improvements that help the ganker, not the victim. So I suggested a balance. i already wrote the answer to your toughts before: Originally by:** bornaa hey, its a cyber world, if your a carebear, paly it smart. make safes, organise groups, rat together, have scouts, put bubbles on the gates... there are zillion ways to survive if you play the game smart. but noo lets just have poeople ctrl-q and its all good.
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 16:05:00 - [17] Originally by: Exlegion So, let's see. You're complaining that PVE set up ships aren't sticking around to fight you in your PVP ship. Would you like for them to form a single straight line and warp to you as you crush them one by one so you can feel good about yourself? ..people do ** in 0.0 wich is supposed to be a low security system but instead its a high security becouse you just..WOOT...turn the game off and your safe. gg. so why not make every game like eve then..when your threatened to lose, instead of doing something smart in game you just leave the playing field/close the game and its a draw. sounds fun. gonna get checkmated in chess ? close the game and its a draw your losing in football 15 minutes before end? just leave the playing field and its a draw. yea, sounds like alot of fun, competition wise. all games should look at eves great example. and you people saying what do you expect pve ships to fight pvp fitted ones....no ofcourse not...i was saying that let the hunters have a valid chance to outsmart their oponet, and let the isk farmer actually use their intelligence to save his ship instead of this bull** logoff mechanic wich just ruins the game.
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 16:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Ava Luvlidai As for an NPC aggression timer I'd have to disagree, or at least make it perhaps 3-4 minutes instead so you don't catch out the legitimate ratters who for some reason have RL to attend to, but will give you enough time to probe out someone who's logged as soon as you entered local. yes yes i already covered that but you people dont seem to read Originally by: bornaa i know people have to suddenly leave sometimes, but can you imagine how many times i had to wait out my 15 minute pvp aggro not to get probed out in space altho i really really had to leave? and pvp is something you cant control as well as you can control engaging a rat knowing you have to leave soon. pvp is harder to find, you can get engaged and it gives higher penaltyes. why? even more benefits to the farmers by current system. why ccp, why?
Thargor II Amarr Real Nice And Laidback Corporation	Posted - 2007.10.15 16:14:00 - [19] This topic is an issue that can't be solved. Under ideal situations the server, client, or ISP would never have any issues that cause clients to be disconnected from the server. What you propose to work in 0.0 space would in fact really make high sec mission running very aggravating should your client crash. Wouldn't it be super fun if you lost a navy raven with 1.2 billion in modules because your client crashed and your ship didn't disappear for 15 minutes and all the mission rats killed you? Oh CCP would refund that 500mil raven but you still would be out all the modules. The complaint about the cloaking is valid though. I think any ship should be able to be probed while in game. I think to probe out a cloaking class ship there should be a module on a POS that can do this and should the cloaker remained logged into the same system for 2 hours moving or not he should be find able through the POS. As for other ships....I don't think they should be able to fully cloak...make them difficult to find with probes but not impossible.
Exlegion Caldari New Light Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.15 17:21:00 - [20] Originally by: bornaa Originally by: Exlegion So, let's see. You're complaining that PVE set up ships aren't sticking around to fight you in your PVP ship. Would you like for them to form a single straight line and warp to you as you crush them one by one so you can feel good about yourself? ..people do ** in 0.0 wich is supposed to be a low security system but instead its a high security becouse you just..WOOT...turn the game off and your safe. gg. so why not make every game like eve then..when your threatened to lose, instead of doing something smart in game you just leave the playing field/close the game and its a draw. sounds fun. gonna get checkmated in chess ? close the game and its a draw your losing in football 15 minutes before end? just leave the playing field and its a draw. yea, sounds like alot of fun, competition wise. all games should look at eves great example. and you people saying what do you expect pve ships to fight pvp fitted ones....no ofcourse not...i was saying that let the hunters have a valid chance to outsmart their oponet, and let the isk farmer actually use their intelligence to save his ship instead of this bull** logoff mechanic wich just ruins the game. The thing is NPCers/missioners/ratters/miners HAVE evolved. They see trouble and they immediately scram. I know I do. If I'm missioning I immeditaly align. I don't wait to be scrammed. If I'm ratting in 0.0 while a hostile enters system, again, I immediately scram (SS, dock, cloak). If I wasn't able to come out of harm's way I wouldn't be going to low sec/00. So then what? You're still out of targets anyway. And you'd probably be complaining on how empty low sec/0.0 is. One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 18:10:00 - [21] Originally by: Exlegion Originally by: bornaa Originally by: Exlegion So, let's see. You're complaining that PVE set up ships aren't sticking around to fight you in your PVP ship. Would you like for them to form a single straight line and warp to you as you crush them one by one so you can feel good about yourself? ..people do ** in 0.0 wich is supposed to be a low security system but instead its a high security becouse you just..WOOT...turn the game off and your safe. gg. so why not make every game like eve then..when your threatened to lose, instead of doing something smart in game you just leave the playing field/close the game and its a draw. sounds fun. gonna get checkmated in chess ? close the game and its a draw your losing in football 15 minutes before end? just leave the playing field and its a draw. yea, sounds like alot of fun, competition wise. all games should look at eves great example. and you people saying what do you expect pve ships to fight pvp fitted ones....no ofcourse not...i was saying that let the hunters have a valid chance to outsmart their oponet, and let the isk farmer actually use their intelligence to save his ship instead of this bull** logoff mechanic wich just ruins the game. The thing is NPCers/missioners/ratters/miners HAVE evolved. They see trouble and they immediately scram. I know I do. If I'm missioning I immeditaly align. I don't wait to be scrammed. If I'm ratting in 0.0 while a hostile enters system, again, I immediately scram (SS, dock, cloak). If I wasn't able to come out of harm's way I wouldn't be going to low sec/00. So then what? You're still out of targets anyway. And you'd probably be complaining on how empty low sec/0.0 is. actually, i would just be wasting time on trying to find people like you becouse the game mechanics protect you up to a degree i will never ever catch you. and if i by some miracle do your prolly be stabbed. thats my whole point. thing is if your smart you have around 99.9% chance to stay safe and grind your little heart out. this topic is just about that..its low sec but actually game mechanics favour grinders so muczh itsa not dangerous at all.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.15 18:54:00 - [22] Originally by: Ava Luvlidai I read in another thread (unsure where, sorry) about how if you shoot someone's can/wreck it's counted as aggression. So maybe a possibility would be when encountering logging farmers to check the belts to see if they left any wrecks behind - if they did and you're under the 1minute countdown voila, you have yourself an easily probable (that's probe-able) farmer. It doesn't solve the cloaking issue granted, but it's using game mechanics against them when they're so blatantly flaunting them. As for an NPC aggression timer I'd have to disagree, or at least make it perhaps 3-4 minutes instead so you don't catch out the legitimate ratters who for some reason have RL to attend to, but will give you enough time to probe out someone who's logged as soon as you entered local. It as been declared a exploit more than once. If the target petition you there is a good chance you get some form of ban and he get his ship back. (as usual it can depend on the GM).
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.15 19:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 15/10/2007 19:00:27 Originally by: Ava Luvlidai BORNAA what you don't seem to get (or don't want) is that as long as there are 10 persons like you hunting around and 1 target, if the target hasn't some good options to flee, he has the life aspectancy of a snowball in a sun. again i can only quote myself on something i already wrote in this thread wich seems to not be getting tru: Originally by: bornaa hey, its a cyber world, if your a carebear, paly it smart. make safes, organise groups, rat together, have scouts, put bubbles on the gates... there are zillion ways to survive if you play the game smart. but noo lets just have poeople ctrl-q and its all good. what this basicly is saying that farmers dont have to organise and play it smart becouse they can just logoff solo and stay perfectly safe. i find this to be frecking the reality of the game and the overall feeling to it, enjoyment and playability.
Sha'ara Sha'amashira	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:10:00 - [24] Originally by: bornaa ..people do ** in 0.0 wich is supposed to be a low security system but instead its a high security becouse you just..WOOT...turn the game off and your safe. gg. so why not make every game like eve then..when your threatened to lose, instead of doing something smart in game you just leave the playing field/close the game and its a draw. sounds fun. ... yea, sounds like alot of fun, competition wise. all games should look at eves great example. and you people saying what do you expect pve ships to fight pvp fitted ones....no ofcourse not...i was saying that let the hunters have a valid chance to outsmart their oponet, and let the isk farmer actually use their intelligence to save his ship instead of this bull logoff mechanic wich just ruins the game. 2 big big problems with this. 1) Isk Farmers seldom ever come into low sec, the people that do are not the ones selling isk on web sites they are usually the players trying to get their isk up to get themselves so that they can afford to participate in things like pvp or work their way up the ladder. Most actual isk farmers either afk macro-mine (which has been ***ed down on a bit and is recognized as being illegal) or play the market which is a legitimate way of making isk. So these changes you ask for wont hurt the isk-farmers, just the care bears. Nerfing real players only leads to one thing like that, loosing players from the game, and all of those carebears make the tech 2 mods and ships that im guessing you like it use to hunt them so killing them and forcing them away really isnt in ur favor. 2) Have you ever played another MMO ever before. What you suggest is a very very common thing among virtually all MMOs. You make the mistake of thinking that this is chess and not a game based on the rules of it having to be easily played on the internet. FF11 has things like aggroing to zone or logging off to loose monster hate, as do most other games. EVE is unique in that it has such a large PVP portion of the game, with that you have to make certain concessions however to the traditional MMO players to expand the number of players. The fact that they can run like that allows those people that dont want to participate in your love for PVP to not participate in it. Any other MMO you either have to make a duel request, enter a special PvP zone that is a very small portion of the game, or turn on a PvP flag. And it is always possible to reach the highest lvls of the game without having to pvp in almost every other MMO I have ever seen, but in eve you have to enter these pvp zones to reach the higher levels of the game. You have to enter 0.0 space to reach faction agents and get their loyalty points and special goodies. The game mechanics are in your favor to force people to move through that space to reach the places they must go to get what they want. To combat that advantage that hunters have in forcing people to move through their space the care-bears get logoffski tactics and their cloaking devices.
Spaztik Ferret	Posted - 2007.10.15 22:33:00 - [25] Cloak nerf: Signed Logoffski nerf: Signed Im all for stopping the farmers and the 0 risk carebears, because these players are untouchable and pansies in my eyes... but there is another type to turn your eye to as well. The PvP'ers need a nerf too.. but not just any PvP'ers, im talking about the empire wardec corps. They camp a gate or station and wait for fat haulers and defenseless ships. Usually alone, sometimes in groups. They pick on the weak, no problem there. Here's the problem, how can you combet them? Hide your numbers and send in some bait? Or force yourself to use another lame tactic in the form of a log on trap? But as soon as they see local swell they de-agress and dock in less time than it takes to target them. Agression timers need to work both ways
Max Mentor	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:17:00 - [26] OP is a whiner and a noob. Ratters are easy kills. Learn to hunt better.
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.16 01:24:00 - [27] Originally by: Max Mentor OP is a whiner and a noob. Ratters are easy kills. Learn to hunt better. actually, dumb, half afk ratters are easy kills. people that pay slightest attention are impossible to get. i aitn saying we aint geting alot of kills, im just saying alot of people are able to use a *** defense tactic.
Zachstar Combined Planetary Union	Posted - 2007.10.16 03:36:00 - [28] Edited by: Zachstar on 16/10/2007 03:35:55 Make lag and internet issues a thing of the past then i'll agree with logoff nerfs. However, As it stands the current system needs not be touched because of the very real damage it can do if you try to change stuff in the name of removing logoffski. Oh and cry me a river about the lack of kills. Realistically pirating in EVE ought to be 10x harder than it is now. Yet yall keep trying to convince everyone that pirating needs to be on equal terms. Its rather silly. BTW I have little respect for those who gank farmers for fun and do not report them. If you suspect a farmer REPORT IT. There is no need to penalize others just because farmers know logoffski, align, and cloaking like the back of their hand. They ought to not be playing EVE at all.
Sasha Saucer	Posted - 2007.10.16 04:25:00 - [29] You know whats pathetic? You ppl whine about not being able to kill Ratters and yet AAA is able to scan down and kill a MC Titan in 30 seconds. And he had a Cloak too!1111 Any more silly whines? Sky isnt blue enough?
bornaa	Posted - 2007.10.16 07:52:00 - [30] Originally by: Sasha Saucer You know whats pathetic? You ppl whine about not being able to kill Ratters and yet AAA is able to scan down and kill a MC Titan in 30 seconds. And he had a Cloak too!1111 its pathetic that you think it was all that simple. you cant probe cloaked people fyi. and im not saying there aint alot of people to kill, im saying why allow people to turn the game off? doesnt that kind of ruin it for you as well?

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