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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4565
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Posted - 2012.01.27 10:18:00 -
[61] - Quote
Reicine Ceer wrote:[My grammatical point still stands. No, it doesn't, because it's not a question of grammar. It's a question of local mathematical notation and the effects it has on machine input (and, as others have shown, it's much the same as the difference between date formats).
Quote:Just because people do something doesn't mean it's in any way, shape, or form, correct. Actually, it does. Largely because mathematical notation is not universally unified. It varies with the region. What is wrong for some is correct for others, and stating something as absolutely right or wrong is wrong, absolutely.
With numbers, in particular, it is utterly irrelevant to me how you choose to represent it locally as long as the representation on my end conforms to my conventions (it's that last bit that is still an issue for EVE). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Jorn Isu
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
21
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Posted - 2012.01.27 10:20:00 -
[62] - Quote
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:On a side note, when i learned to write decimals, I was teached to use this: '
So I would write 1.050'45.
Then i just began writing wth a keyboard and moved the comma below.
Oh, and I always have felt very weird how anglo-saxons deem the month to be all that relevant. "Which day is now"? "January..." "HUH?" "...twenty-sixth".
Kinda lame and grammatically nonsensical:
"On January, on the twenty-sixth day, of year 2012, strange things happened..."
vs
"On the twenty-sixth day of January of year 2012, strange things happened..."
Romans 1*, anglo-saxons 0.
*Yes, i am aware that Romans had a bloody complicated calendar, but it moved from the smaller unit to the larger one in the same elegant progression as all civilized nations do today: "on the 3rd idus of march, et cetera" Not defending it (I think MM/DD/YY is a stupid convention), Months are massively important in an agrarian society. They described the change in the seasons, by far the most important part of the life of a farmer. The numeric date was the next most relevant, as it allowed the counting of days, and the year was the least important; Who the **** cares that it's 1523 years after some poor sap died? |
Indahmawar Fazmarai
The I and F Taxation Trust
256
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Posted - 2012.01.27 14:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
Jorn Isu wrote:Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:On a side note, when i learned to write decimals, I was teached to use this: '
So I would write 1.050'45.
Then i just began writing wth a keyboard and moved the comma below.
Oh, and I always have felt very weird how anglo-saxons deem the month to be all that relevant. "Which day is now"? "January..." "HUH?" "...twenty-sixth".
Kinda lame and grammatically nonsensical:
"On January, on the twenty-sixth day, of year 2012, strange things happened..."
vs
"On the twenty-sixth day of January of year 2012, strange things happened..."
Romans 1*, anglo-saxons 0.
*Yes, i am aware that Romans had a bloody complicated calendar, but it moved from the smaller unit to the larger one in the same elegant progression as all civilized nations do today: "on the 3rd idus of march, et cetera" Not defending it (I think MM/DD/YY is a stupid convention), Months are massively important in an agrarian society. They described the change in the seasons, by far the most important part of the life of a farmer. The numeric date was the next most relevant, as it allowed the counting of days, and the year was the least important; Who the **** cares that it's 1523 years after some poor sap died? edit: By the way, I apologize on behalf of my countrymen, assuming those who seem to be aren't just terrible trolls. period as decimal point and comma as magnitudal delimiter looks nicer to me, but only because I'm used to it. I can think of a lot of silly arguments for both sides, but the important thing is that we understand each other, and I think we generally are able to :)
Well, the Roman depended a lot on agriculture and for centuries they wouldn't bother to set the calendar to fit with seasons: their year under the Romulus calendar was some 300 days long, but the maximum priest (?) could add additonal winter days whenever he cared. Farmers themselves didn't cared about dates nor calendars, as they watched the sun and weather patterns (like, "it hasn't frosted for a month and the setting sun has reached that hill, thus it's time to plow the fields").
My very informal guess is that the barbarians in the Isles just acquired an habit to do things opposed to what their Roman conquerors did, a trait still noticeable on how those silly Brittons (and their offspring) think. EVE residents: 5% Wormholes; 8% Lowsec; 20% Nullsec; 67% Highsec. CSM 6: 100% Nullsec residents.
EVE demographics vs CSM demographics, nothing to worry about...-á |
Zaza Laolle
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
0
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Posted - 2012.02.16 15:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Most mathematical oriented programms process the numpad dot key as a decimal separator and eve should do the same.
The real issue is the dot key of the numpad still inputs a dot in eve : in Excell or OpenOffice, whenever I type the dot key of the numpad, it inputs a comma - this dot key is understood as a decimal separator.
Eve itself seems lost : I can not copy / paste a value from an order to another.
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Dharq
Dark Spiral.
0
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Posted - 2012.02.16 16:43:00 -
[65] - Quote
Kay: It's a universal translator. We're not even supposed to have it, and I'll tell you why... Human thought is so primitive it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. That kind of makes you proud, doesn't it? huh? |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
327
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Posted - 2012.02.16 17:16:00 -
[66] - Quote
This still isn't fixed. WTF.
I'm setting a bug report everyday until this is fixed. Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
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CCP karkur
C C P C C P Alliance
363
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Posted - 2012.02.16 18:43:00 -
[67] - Quote
Riley Moore wrote:This still isn't fixed. WTF.
I'm setting a bug report everyday until this is fixed. Please don't We already have a defect on it (and ideas how to fix it), and it's just going to waste everyone's time if you keep filing bugrepoorts on it
(i'm assuming you were talking about the numpad decimal not working, not what's the correct way to write numbers and dates like some people are arguing about here . The numpad decimal should work on your keyboard if it's set to the same language as the regional settings... for example, it doesn't work when I have US-EN keyboard but Icelandic regional settings, but if I switch the keyboard to Icelandic, it works just fine... so you might want to change the keyboard settings until we fix it) |
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Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
327
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Posted - 2012.02.16 18:45:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:Riley Moore wrote:This still isn't fixed. WTF.
I'm setting a bug report everyday until this is fixed. Please don't We already have a defect on it (and ideas how to fix it), and it's just going to waste everyone's time if you keep filing bugrepoorts on it
I'm not that evil.
Do please fix it one way or another :3 Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Kilrayn
Caldari Provisions
191
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Posted - 2012.02.16 18:50:00 -
[69] - Quote
Just wondering, why are you guys looking at the poor end of your wallet? Even better question, why are you worried about fractions of isk?
*shrugs* "Music is a mysterious thing. Sometimes itn++ makes people remember things they do not expect. Many thoughts, feelings, memories... things almost forgotten... Regardless of whether the listener desires to remember or not." - Citan Uzuki, Xenogears |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
327
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Posted - 2012.02.16 18:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
Kilrayn wrote:Just wondering, why are you guys looking at the poor end of your wallet? Even better question, why are you worried about fractions of isk?
*shrugs*
Market games. Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
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Jita Alt666
900
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Posted - 2012.02.16 19:06:00 -
[71] - Quote
0.1 x 100,000,000,000.00 = 10,000,000,000.00 oh wait it now equals 10.000.000.000,00 |
Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
40
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Posted - 2012.02.16 19:49:00 -
[72] - Quote
CCP karkur wrote:ir'a based on your regional settings... so for example, for the Americans(or anyone using "us" settings) "." is the decimal symbol while it's "," for Icelandic. I'm glad you like it... should I maybe not tell you that you could always do that by swapping 2 values in the prefs file... yeah, I think I won't
Any chance to force the game NOT TO USE the regional settings? I tried to force it by editing the prefs.ini, however that did not helped at all. |
Zaxix
Black Frog Logistics Red-Frog
30
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Posted - 2012.02.16 20:06:00 -
[73] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:I feel like having another little rant.
DD/MM/YY is correct.
MM/DD/YY is not correct.
Days go into months, and months go into years. DD/MM/YY is a logical progression of size.
MM/DD/YY, however, is just an eyesore and logical failure.
I can respect YY/MM/DD, but one must consider that when it comes to dates we often care about the day and month before anything else. *Flashes Grammar Nerd Badge*
As with most of the comments on this thread, conventions vary from region to region and language to language. In this particular case, the "Euro" convention is actually based on Gregorian calendar notations used by European church scribes ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calendar_date ). I can't find any clear info on why the American date format differs, but I suspect its traditional American laziness with language. Why say 4th of March when you could say March 4th and save like half a second?
Decimals vs. Commas (if someone hasn't already linked this) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark. Lots of interesting factoids to stash in my Grammar Nerd Backpack. TL;DR--it all comes down to early printing conventions.
Tippia wrote:No, it doesn't, because it's not a question of grammar. It's a question of local mathematical notation and the effects it has on machine input (and, as others have shown, it's much the same as the difference between date formats). It is definitely a question of grammar. Entire sections of the Chicago Manual of Style, Gregg's Reference Manual, etc. deal specifically with numbers and the many ways in which they are used in both numeric and written form. Punctuation and other forms of symbolic meaning are part of grammar and they serve as a visual shorthand for an unstated principles (e.g. in regular sentences, a period is really saying "this is the end of this particular statement; anything that follows is not part of this statement," and a comma is really saying "what follows is closely related to, but separate from, the previous unit of meaning"). Math is a language and it definitely has a grammar ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_mathematics ). Commas, periods, and other symbols serve that same function--abbreviated language.
I return to my cubicle in the library. Red Frog--Hisec Courier Black Frog--Losec/Nosec Courier
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Lost Hamster
Hamster Holding Corp
40
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Posted - 2012.02.16 20:16:00 -
[74] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:I feel like having another little rant.
DD/MM/YY is correct.
MM/DD/YY is not correct.
Days go into months, and months go into years. DD/MM/YY is a logical progression of size.
MM/DD/YY, however, is just an eyesore and logical failure.
I can respect YY/MM/DD, but one must consider that when it comes to dates we often care about the day and month before anything else.
Personally my favorite is the YY/MM/DD - and the reason is for that: Take a program which creates a folder every day. After a year or two, you look that folder, and you see a big mess, as the directories are sorted by the first two characters, so you get a list where it's hard to find - select the days which are within a month. However if you have the folder structure in: YY/MM/DD then the folder list will be a clean list, where you can easily find the days, which are belonging to one month. |
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CCP karkur
C C P C C P Alliance
363
|
Posted - 2012.02.16 20:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Lost Hamster wrote:CCP karkur wrote:ir'a based on your regional settings... so for example, for the Americans(or anyone using "us" settings) "." is the decimal symbol while it's "," for Icelandic. I'm glad you like it... should I maybe not tell you that you could always do that by swapping 2 values in the prefs file... yeah, I think I won't Any chance to force the game NOT TO USE the regional settings? I tried to force it by editing the prefs.ini, however that did not helped at all. No, sorry, I don't think you can do it as it is now (and I don't think there are any plans to change it). |
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Tazarak theDeceiver
Southern Cross Knights Order Of The Unforgiving
11
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Posted - 2012.02.17 03:45:00 -
[76] - Quote
I hope this is the place for this, but I'd really like to see:
1) commas, full-stops, decimals (whatever you use) in the calculator, so my rapidly aging eyes can tell 100m from 10b when doing calculations.
2) an RPN option on the calculator. I can't be the only engineer that plays eve. Calculators should not have an = sign on them, it's blasphemous.
3) Can we please please please get the date to show in the lower left corner near the Eve time like it used to??? I play west coast USA and it's usually the next day Eve time, or sometimes it's not. It drive me mental to have to open the calendar to find out which day it is.
TYVM.
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Nemesis Factor
Clann Fian Narwhals Ate My Duck
37
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Posted - 2012.02.17 04:30:00 -
[77] - Quote
I thought it was pence for you people. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
4931
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 04:39:00 -
[78] - Quote
Zaxix wrote:It is definitely a question of grammar. Entire sections of the Chicago Manual of Style, Gregg's Reference Manual, etc. deal specifically with numbers and the many ways in which they are used in both numeric and written form. GǪand none of them are grammar books but style guides for one GÇö particular and non-universal GÇö way of doing things. Hell, it's not even consistent within the same language (which is why those style guides are needed: to patch a hole that isn't covered by the rules of grammar)GǪ
Quote:Math is a language and it definitely has a grammar. Commas, periods, and other symbols serve that same function--abbreviated language. Too bad that it's not consistent and that saying one way of using separators for magnitudes and decimals is GÇ£wrongGÇ¥ and another is GÇ£rightGÇ¥, as if it was some kind of absolute, is absolutely wrong. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs. |
Ascendic
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
44
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 06:15:00 -
[79] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Dirk Magnum wrote:Stealth indication of decline in American subscribers. Does China use ',' or '.'? edit: Crap. They use "S¦¥" for the decimal point.
Hang on a minute here. You were really stupid enough to think China uses the same numbering system?
*headdesk* |
Ascendic
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
44
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Posted - 2012.02.17 06:18:00 -
[80] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:WRONG WRONG WRONG A period is correct. Trust me, Australia knows its stuff.
Besides, in scientific notation I believe that even Europeans used a period. Well, Wikipedia mentions nothing about commas. Probably because no one cares. 3.4 * 10^32
'Grammatically' it also makes sense, as a period is used to separate two different 'ideas', if you will, while a comma is a continuation of the same thing.
If read like a sentence:
$12,726.21 Twelve thousand, seven hundred and twenty-six dollars. *STOP* and twenty-one cents.
$12.726,21 Twelve. *STOP* Seven hundred and twenty-six and twenty-one. (WTF?)
Grammar != maths
Durrrr |
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Ascendic
Macabre Votum Against ALL Authorities
44
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Posted - 2012.02.17 06:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
DarkAegix wrote:Which continent is currently experiencing a financial crisis for some of its countries? Europe.
What do they use as a decimal mark when considering large sums of money? A comma.
Oh dear. It looks like commas are incorrect.
Yep the USA is definitely NOT in financial crisis.
Owai..........
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Terajima Kazumi
Enlightened Industries Test Alliance Please Ignore
51
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Posted - 2012.02.17 07:44:00 -
[82] - Quote
Reicine Ceer wrote:Joahna Gramer wrote:Sorry to dissapoint you, but what you say is only true for America and England. In most of Europe they use the comma to seperate between them. Quote:In English, the comma is used as a thousands separator (and the period as a decimal separator), to make large numbers easier to read. So write the size of Alaska as 571,951 square miles instead of 571951 square miles. In Continental Europe the opposite is true, periods are used to separate large numbers and the comma is used for decimals. Finally, the International Systems of Units (SI) recommends that a space should be used to separate groups of three digits, and both the comma and the period should be used only to denote decimals, like $13 200,50 (the comma part is a messGǪ I know). Source My grammatical point still stands. Just because people do something doesn't mean it's in any way, shape, or form, correct. If a period is used to separate sentences in text, and a comma is used to allow a pause in a sentence, then mathematically these two symbols should in any right-thinking world be used in the exact same context. The excerpt from dailywritingtips.com is simply aping what people 'do'. Whilst a vast majority of people may be doing it this way, it implies that their math is all horribly wrong (economic crises anyone?). Of course, language is a fluid and beautiful thing - new ways and old ways of speaking and using words occur every day, but - getting back to the topic here - grammatically, the way the likes of the Icelanders use commas and periods in displaying numbers is undeniably and horribly backwards, and just because people got taught wrong doesn't mean it should stay that way :P "grammatik macht frei", etc As long as a grammar is well defined, symbol choice is irrelevant. Arguing that one grammar should adhere to some convention on the basis that said convention is similar to a convention in another grammar is likewise irrelevant. One of the first things you learn when studying language theory is that symbols can be assigned a meaning arbitrarily.
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark |
Balkor Wolf
Rekall Incorporated
1
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 09:36:00 -
[83] - Quote
I rekon just to make everyone happy (And by happy I mean give them something to rage about because everyone knows that EVE players love a good whine about anything) that we change all Full Stops and Commas to the Squiggly line!
10~000~000~00
Isnt that much better? that way we aren't upsetting any specific nation by chosing one format over another but upsetting all nations! |
Chatti
Aliastra Gallente Federation
9
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Posted - 2012.02.17 12:07:00 -
[84] - Quote
Balkor Wolf wrote:...change all Full Stops and Commas to the Squiggly line!
10~000~000~00
It's not called the "squiggly" line, it's the wiggly line!
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Balkor Wolf
Rekall Incorporated
1
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Posted - 2012.02.17 12:49:00 -
[85] - Quote
Chatti wrote:Balkor Wolf wrote:...change all Full Stops and Commas to the Squiggly line!
10~000~000~00 It's not called the "squiggly" line, it's the wiggly line!
le fu-
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Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
233
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 12:52:00 -
[86] - Quote
Tilde https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilde
But getting back to people, if you want it to change (using windows 7): Go to your region and language Settings (hit the start key. type region. It'll show up) Hit additional Settings. Change the decimal seperator and digit group symbol
As for why it's important to some folks, using Eve Mentat's 'suggest price' feature, it screws up on the paste in. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Riley Moore
Sentinum Research
328
|
Posted - 2012.02.17 13:09:00 -
[87] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Tilde https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TildeBut getting back to people, if you want it to change (using windows 7): Go to your region and language Settings (hit the start key. type region. It'll show up) Hit additional Settings. Change the decimal seperator and digit group symbol As for why it's important to some folks, using Eve Mentat's 'suggest price' feature, it screws up on the paste in.
I don't want it changed in any other program, I don't care what the thousand and cent separators are in eve, the issue is that pressing the numpad . key does nothing in eve market orders. Large volumes of highly researched Ammo, drones, charges and ship bpo's. Biggest BPO store in EVE! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=445524#post445524 |
Tribunia
Ducks of Death
1
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Posted - 2012.02.17 13:55:00 -
[88] - Quote
I like dots and commas equaly. Peace & Love!
Marlona Sky wrote:Oh look, another thread that devolved into an anti-American rant.
I m assuming you re not from South America. No one from there would make such a claim anyway.
Agreeably it might not occur to a north-american, but it could quite possibly have something to do with the fact that so many things north-american are rant-worthy from a non north-american standpoint. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
233
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Posted - 2012.02.17 13:58:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tribunia wrote:I like dots and commas equaly. Peace & Love! Marlona Sky wrote:Oh look, another thread that devolved into an anti-American rant. I m assuming you re not from South America. No one from there would make such a claim anyway. Agreeably it might not occur to a north-american, but it could quite possibly have something to do with the fact that so many things north-american are rant-worthy from a non north-american standpoint.
USAian?
Canadians are north American too. And some Mexicans, I think. FuzzWork Enterprises http://www.fuzzwork.co.uk/ Blueprint calculator and other 'useful' utilities. |
Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
21
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Posted - 2012.02.17 14:04:00 -
[90] - Quote
I want to add that there is still a problem when pasting correct formatted numbers with thousand separators into EvE.
I have 100.000.000,00 as value and want to paste it in the input field for a value. That does not work.
So I have to put any formatted value from a calc-sheet or even the windows calculator into an editor for deleting the thousand separators by hand.
It would be really great if this would be work some day!
Cheers |
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