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Cosmosa Magellan
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:20:00 -
[1]
I've been playing EVE for a moderate amount of time now, and I must say that it its quite endearing, if not a little dense. The gameplay is excellent and supported by some great fiction, especially the EVE Chronicles (my hat is off to CCP Abraxas). But there is a minor detail that I've seen cropped up in several places that I must object to - the temperature of space (and the transmission of said temperature) is not realistically portrayed.
1. Density of Space Space, despite what we normally perceive, is not what we would calle a ôperfect vacuumö û devoid of any and all matter. In fact, space is teeming with both atmospheric particles (within the vicinity of any planets with an atmosphere) and solar radiation that creates friction, drag, and density of itÆs own(1). Granted, none of these factors are large enough to affect the orbits of celestial objects (in fact, it seems celestial objects in EVE are immune to any outside influence!) or especially large ships but they are a force that should be considered regardless, especially in fiction where gameplay and technical issues are not a significant consideration.
2. Cosmic Background Radiation In addition, all space has some inherent background radiation. I understand that the area of space occupied by New Eden is both different in location than the Milky Way galaxy and several thousand years in the future, but as far as we know Background Radiation is present everywhere in the universe (with the exception of a startling ôholeö approximately 20 billion lightyears from our present location û but that is a different story(2)).
I believe that for the sake of realism these two factors should be taken into account in the Prime Fiction of the EVE universe, as it creates a more realistic and interesting grounding (and perhaps in the future it can offer new gameplay elements û who knows?). This leads me to the primary topic of this post û the temperature of space is not accurately portrayed in EVE.
1. Temperature There is a common misconception among the general public that space isàwellàcold. Extremely cold, in fact, certainly cold enough to kill any human exposed to it. But this is, in fact, not at all the case within the confines of any solar system(3)! Solar radiation and particles in and around planetary atmospheres affect the temperature of space, on average space within the boundaries of a solar system like ours is approximately 8 degrees Celcius, not comfortable but certainly not lethal by any means! I imagine that farther away from the center of a solar system the temperature would decrease, but to find a lethally-cold temperature one would have to be several hundred AUÆs away from the system center, and I have not seen a solar system so large in EVE (though I have not yet left empire space). It is safe to say that this is an inaccuracy that should be connected.
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Cosmosa Magellan
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:21:00 -
[2]
2. Transfer of Heat Another common misconception is that transmission of temperature and heat in space works on the same scale that it does here on planet Earth (Or Amarr, or New Caldari, what have you). Here on earth, at a pressure of 14 PSI (sea level) we feel the effects of heat and cold quite quickly, from a breeze, campfire, or furnace. However, this is largly a factor of density, and how quickly we ôfeelö a temperature change is dependant onf the density of our environment(4). In space, since there is so little density of particles, being shoved out of an airlock would not create the gruesome and dramatic death as portrayed in EVEÆs Prime fiction(5). In fact, unless one sweats profusely (the sweat would very quickly evaporate, creating an impressive chill) the most likely cause of death for someone exposed to the vacuum of space would most likely die of suffocation or radiation poisoning. Unfortunately in several instances it is implied or explicitly stated(5) that those exposed to the vacuum of space die in all kinds of exotic ways, including having their skin boil, freezing, or having their heads explode. This is in no way accurate!
I hope that ths matter is corrected or at least acknowledged in the near future. Thankyou for your time, CCP!
My References:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Outer_space 2. Unfortunately I was unable to find a source for this but an article exists on Slashdot.org 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature#Temperature_of_the_vacuum 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature#Second-law_definition_of_temperature 5. http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/jul01-02.asp
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:21:00 -
[3]
Nice try
Call to arms!!! |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:21:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Tarminic on 15/10/2007 17:21:31 Mysteriously takes first in an epic thread.
EDIT: Damnit. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare |
Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:27:00 -
[5]
The boiling blood thing comes from the thought that sudden exposure to the lack of pressure in space would cause the dissolved gases in your blood to expand rapidly (essentially a tech2 variant of the bends).
Which would blow.
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Sylvia Lafayette
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:27:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sylvia Lafayette on 15/10/2007 17:27:54
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan 2. Transfer of Heat Another common misconception is that transmission of temperature and heat in space works on the same scale that it does here on planet Earth (Or Amarr, or New Caldari, what have you). Here on earth, at a pressure of 14 PSI (sea level) we feel the effects of heat and cold quite quickly, from a breeze, campfire, or furnace. However, this is largly a factor of density, and how quickly we ôfeelö a temperature change is dependant onf the density of our environment(4). In space, since there is so little density of particles, being shoved out of an airlock would not create the gruesome and dramatic death as portrayed in EVEÆs Prime fiction(5). In fact, unless one sweats profusely (the sweat would very quickly evaporate, creating an impressive chill) the most likely cause of death for someone exposed to the vacuum of space would most likely die of suffocation or radiation poisoning. Unfortunately in several instances it is implied or explicitly stated(5) that those exposed to the vacuum of space die in all kinds of exotic ways, including having their skin boil, freezing, or having their heads explode. This is in no way accurate!
I hope that ths matter is corrected or at least acknowledged in the near future. Thankyou for your time, CCP!
My References:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Outer_space 2. Unfortunately I was unable to find a source for this but an article exists on Slashdot.org 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature#Temperature_of_the_vacuum 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature#Second-law_definition_of_temperature 5. http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/jul01-02.asp
this just makes me think NASA shoving bunnies squirrels and other small critters out the airlock to find out what happens.... since we cant send people... can we?
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Cosmosa Magellan
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:29:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Winterblink The boiling blood thing comes from the thought that sudden exposure to the lack of pressure in space would cause the dissolved gases in your blood to expand rapidly (essentially a tech2 variant of the bends).
Which would blow.
Ah, but I'm not sure that the sudden decrease in pressure would be enough (proportionally) to create such a dramatic effect...obviously there would be significant damage to the orifices and make one's last several minutes very unpleasant, but I'm not sure it would be enough to make one's blood literally boil.
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EliteSlave
Minmatar Tau Ceti Global Production Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:30:00 -
[8]
TL : DR
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare |
Mazzarins Demise
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:33:00 -
[10]
I'm sorry but when I read your topic, it was the only thing I thought of.
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CCP Atropos
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:35:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
Haha! Mephysto and I were trying to work out the equivalent amount of TNT required by the firing of one Antimatter L round, the other day. Counterpoint to that is the use of Nuclear and Depleted Uranium rounds for Projectiles and such. How the crews don't get instantly irradiated and die a horrible death at the start of combat I don't know.
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:41:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan 2. Transfer of Heat Another common misconception is that transmission of temperature and heat in space works on the same scale that it does here on planet Earth (Or Amarr, or New Caldari, what have you). Here on earth, at a pressure of 14 PSI (sea level) we feel the effects of heat and cold quite quickly, from a breeze, campfire, or furnace. However, this is largly a factor of density, and how quickly we ôfeelö a temperature change is dependant onf the density of our environment(4). In space, since there is so little density of particles, being shoved out of an airlock would not create the gruesome and dramatic death as portrayed in EVEÆs Prime fiction(5). In fact, unless one sweats profusely (the sweat would very quickly evaporate, creating an impressive chill) the most likely cause of death for someone exposed to the vacuum of space would most likely die of suffocation or radiation poisoning. Unfortunately in several instances it is implied or explicitly stated(5) that those exposed to the vacuum of space die in all kinds of exotic ways, including having their skin boil, freezing, or having their heads explode. This is in no way accurate!
I hope that ths matter is corrected or at least acknowledged in the near future. Thankyou for your time, CCP!
My References:
1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Outer_space 2. Unfortunately I was unable to find a source for this but an article exists on Slashdot.org 3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature#Temperature_of_the_vacuum 4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperature#Second-law_definition_of_temperature 5. http://www.eve-online.com/background/potw/jul01-02.asp
Well- I think you're right and wrong on this: I thought it studies indicated that within 30 seconds of the vacuum of space, the water in your blood would begin to freeze and evaporate. Apparently, this happened to 3 Russian Cosmonauts, although their fate was a bit different than being "spaced".
While you wouldn't "feel" the effects of extreme cold and you'd probably last a good 30 seconds (provided you've exhaled all of the oxygen from your lungs and curled up into a ball). The effects of terminal hypoxia on the brain, coupled with the threat of your veins and arteries popping very rapidly one at a time, as well as your helpless grasp at inhaling, would be terrifying.
What's even worse is the near instant and excruciating blindness caused by the liquids in your eyes evaporating and freezing over (10 seconds). Followed by your inner ears exploding (12 seconds) and finger tips completely freezing (15 seconds)
I could go on, but it gets progressively worse after that.
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:42:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Snake Doctor Well- I think you're right and wrong on this: I thought it studies indicated that within 30 seconds of the vacuum of space, the water in your blood would begin to freeze and evaporate. Apparently, this happened to 3 Russian Cosmonauts, although their fate was a bit different than being "spaced".
While you wouldn't "feel" the effects of extreme cold and you'd probably last a good 30 seconds (provided you've exhaled all of the oxygen from your lungs and curled up into a ball). The effects of terminal hypoxia on the brain, coupled with the threat of your veins and arteries popping very rapidly one at a time, as well as your helpless grasp at inhaling, would be terrifying.
What's even worse is the near instant and excruciating blindness caused by the liquids in your eyes evaporating and freezing over (10 seconds). Followed by your inner ears exploding (12 seconds) and finger tips completely freezing (15 seconds)
I could go on, but it gets progressively worse after that.
Please do actually, I'm morbid. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare |
Taedrin
Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
The sun spews out these things called photons. On Earth, we only receive low energy photons because the high energy photons are filtered out by the ozone layer, the Van Allen radiation belt, and Earths magnetic field. In space, you don't have any of these nifty things. When a high energy photon hits a molecule of your DNA, DNA Damage can occur. Now, consider that the number of high energy photons that collide with your DNA molecules in space is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!?!?!?!, you body has a tough time repairing all that damage. When your body can't keep up, you can get cancer, the affected cells die or go irreversibly dormant.
If this happens enough, stuff happens and you die.
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Mordru Maligante
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:46:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Mordru Maligante on 15/10/2007 17:47:34
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
Haha! Mephysto and I were trying to work out the equivalent amount of TNT required by the firing of one Antimatter L round, the other day. Counterpoint to that is the use of Nuclear and Depleted Uranium rounds for Projectiles and such. How the crews don't get instantly irradiated and die a horrible death at the start of combat I don't know.
On my ships, my crew are sufficiently shielded such that they do not instantly die when combat commences. However, the majority of them do become deathly ill and only have a life expectancy of a few months. This is really not a big issue though. I just dock, recrew, and move on. :-O
As to interstellar standards of safe working conditions, only one area of great importance comes to mind: P O D!
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
Haha! Mephysto and I were trying to work out the equivalent amount of TNT required by the firing of one Antimatter L round, the other day. Counterpoint to that is the use of Nuclear and Depleted Uranium rounds for Projectiles and such. How the crews don't get instantly irradiated and die a horrible death at the start of combat I don't know.
1. Depleted Uranium does not emit radiation. Poorly classified Depleted Uranium may emit some alpha particles. Be sure to wash your hands after touching it. 2. Nuclear ammo (like conventional nuclear weapons) consists of a nuclear fission material encased in an explosive charge. Working with these would be about as dangerous as working on a Russian Nuke sub-- Come to think of it, The Minnies are probably being dosed worse by their own ship cores than their ammunition :)
3. Just for ****s here, I don't think you fire a railgun with explosives. To get the antimatter effect out the round, however, it would take little more than *****ing the casing (or disabling the EM field in place to prevent the antimatter from touching the matter-based casing.)
Just some thoughts on physics :)
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:47:00 -
[17]
Originally by: CCP Atropos
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
Haha! Mephysto and I were trying to work out the equivalent amount of TNT required by the firing of one Antimatter L round, the other day. Counterpoint to that is the use of Nuclear and Depleted Uranium rounds for Projectiles and such. How the crews don't get instantly irradiated and die a horrible death at the start of combat I don't know.
Well, irl nuclear submarine's crew don't die. The medium fregate's size is about the same size of these submarines.
I agree being shot at shouldn't be at no consequences, but it's a game :) Or CCP would have to modelize ice on ships and melting ice when they get too close to suns ? Would they have to localize damages too if realism is seeked ? 2isk
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:48:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
The sun spews out these things called photons. On Earth, we only receive low energy photons because the high energy photons are filtered out by the ozone layer, the Van Allen radiation belt, and Earths magnetic field. In space, you don't have any of these nifty things. When a high energy photon hits a molecule of your DNA, DNA Damage can occur. Now, consider that the number of high energy photons that collide with your DNA molecules in space is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!?!?!?!, you body has a tough time repairing all that damage. When your body can't keep up, you can get cancer, the affected cells die or go irreversibly dormant.
If this happens enough, stuff happens and you die.
1. Are you the OP's main. 2. I don't think 5 minutes in space is enough to give you radiation poisoning... 3. WHAT NINE THOUSAND?! ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in Forum Warfare |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:48:00 -
[19]
OP got forum-owned by a dev
Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking
I owned someone on forums!!! |
Slanty McGarglefist
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny OP got forum-owned by a dev
The Definition of forum-owned by a dev
__________________________________________________
Originally by: CCP Wrangler No
Doh! |
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Cosmosa Magellan
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny OP got forum-owned by a dev
I'm not familiar with this term...
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Tristeria
Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:50:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Tristeria on 15/10/2007 17:53:19 Warning this thread conatins broked science mis-interpreted from what is originally an unreliable source.
For one thing the wiki states an object in orbit around earth is exposed to the same amount of solar radiation as the earth and radiation from the earths surface, resulting in an equilibrium temperature of 281K.
Now the Earth is 1 AU from the sun and if I recall correctly most eve systems stretch over dozens of AU. However Pluto with an orbit ranging between 30 and 49 AU has a mean surface temperature of 44K. Now admitedly there maybe some other factors affecting this temperature and again it is a value fished from wikipedia but it gives you some idea how significant a factor the distance from a solar body has on the temperature of an object in space.
Might post more if I cba
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Mazzarins Demise
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Tristeria Warning this thread conatins broked science mis-interpreted from what is originally an unreliable source.
For one thing the wiki states an object in orbit around earth is exposed to the same amount of solar radiation as the earth and radiation from the earths surface, resulting in an equilibrium temperature of 281K.
Now the Earth is 1 AU from the sun and if I recall correctly most eve systems stretch over dozens of AU. However Pluto with an orbit ranging between 30 and 49 AU has a mean surface temperature of 44K. Now admitedly there maybe some other factors affecting this temperature and again it is a value fished from wikipedia but it gives you some idea how significant a factor the distance from a solar body has on the temperature of an object.
Might post mroe if I cba
Isn't taking any information from Wikipedia a bad move in general?
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Snake Doctor
Paradox v2.0
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:51:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Taedrin
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan or radiation poisoning.
eh?
The sun spews out these things called photons. On Earth, we only receive low energy photons because the high energy photons are filtered out by the ozone layer, the Van Allen radiation belt, and Earths magnetic field. In space, you don't have any of these nifty things. When a high energy photon hits a molecule of your DNA, DNA Damage can occur. Now, consider that the number of high energy photons that collide with your DNA molecules in space is OVER NINE THOUSAND!!?!?!?!, you body has a tough time repairing all that damage. When your body can't keep up, you can get cancer, the affected cells die or go irreversibly dormant.
If this happens enough, stuff happens and you die.
Actually, in the case of direct sunlight, you're receive EM radiation and UV radiation. Photons aren't a worry, because you're long dead by then. The UV would penetrate you somewhere in the range of 85%, cooking your insides. It would take about 8 seconds to make you crispy on the inside.
Assuming you're in the dark, you could take a hit from the radiation and still live, provided you've got iodine onboard. Just DON'T drink it. DO NOT. DO NOT DO NOT drink iodine. I don't care what television tells you to do.
Just remember if exposed to radiation: If you puke, you're already dead.
Rifter Flight Manual! |
Sylvia Lafayette
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:55:00 -
[25]
I still want to send bunnies out the airlock... along with other critters
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Tristeria
Phantasmal Collective Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:56:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mazzarins Demise
Originally by: Tristeria Warning this thread conatins broked science mis-interpreted from what is originally an unreliable source.
For one thing the wiki states an object in orbit around earth is exposed to the same amount of solar radiation as the earth and radiation from the earths surface, resulting in an equilibrium temperature of 281K.
Now the Earth is 1 AU from the sun and if I recall correctly most eve systems stretch over dozens of AU. However Pluto with an orbit ranging between 30 and 49 AU has a mean surface temperature of 44K. Now admitedly there maybe some other factors affecting this temperature and again it is a value fished from wikipedia but it gives you some idea how significant a factor the distance from a solar body has on the temperature of an object.
Might post mroe if I cba
Isn't taking any information from Wikipedia a bad move in general?
Well if its for any kind of academic purpose then yes, wikipedia is only really useful as a nice and easy way of pulling up information that will at least give you some idea of what to expect. I actually like using the site myself but I always keep in mind that the information there is by no means reliable =)
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:57:00 -
[27]
There was a discussion about this a while back. I had thought your blood would boil and freeze simultaneously if you were exposed to vacuum, but I was incorrect- the human body itself insulates the liquid in you pretty well to keep that from happening.
What would happen, apparently backed up by studies involving animals (shudder), is that if you held your breath your lungs would rupture- ouch. If you didn't, you'd have about 5-10 seconds of usable consciousness before you start suffering from "the bends" (bubbles in the bloodstream), followed by other nastiness.
Anyway, not something you want to experience. And yeah, if you're exposed to sunlight in space directly, you'll fry fast.
-- EVE Glossary Exploration Video |
Cosmosa Magellan
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:57:00 -
[28]
I can support this with other sources, I just felt that Wikipedia was the most appropriate and easy to demonstrate
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Winterblink
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.10.15 17:57:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Cosmosa Magellan Ah, but I'm not sure that the sudden decrease in pressure would be enough (proportionally) to create such a dramatic effect...obviously there would be significant damage to the orifices and make one's last several minutes very unpleasant, but I'm not sure it would be enough to make one's blood literally boil.
Only one way to find out: send up Michael Jackson's pet monkey on a rocket and depressurize it. I recommend MJ's for this since it's already been named appropriately. :)
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Jimer Lins
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.15 18:00:00 -
[30]
Ah, found the link.
-- EVE Glossary Exploration Video |
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