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The actual problem with marauders : they're NOT the best missionrunner

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:06:00 - [151] Edited by: Akita T on 27/10/2007 02:48:04 Edited by: Akita T on 27/10/2007 02:24:43 Here's the new and revamped Marauders How they SHOULD be : Kronos Bonuses: unchanged Vargur Bonuses : unchanged But increase the grid a bit so it can fit arties instead of ACs. Golem Bonuses (alongside MORE PG so it can fit siege launchers AND tank): 10% bonus to BS class missile velocity per Caldari BS level 10% bonus to BS class missile flight time per Caldari BS level 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per Marauder level 5% bonus to BS class missile kinetic damage per Marauder level (pathethic) or -5% bonus to BS class launcher rate of fire per Marauder level (identical to Raven) Paladin Bonuses (alongside at least +25% base MAXCAP compared to Kronos, so roughly around +20% compared to Vargur/Golem): 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level (alternatively, a +10% web range bonus) 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level __ Golem now hits harder and farther away as both Raven and CNR, but still has some problems in PvP. In missions, it CAN actually make good use of torpedoes, especially if it fits and afterburner. It NEEDS more grid, because that extra mid will be taken over by an AB, and you can't really fit siege+AB+tank otherwise. In PvP, it's the only Marauder without an "accuracy" bonus, but that's just fine for a Caldari ship, they're supposed to work in TEAMS not solo anyway, and with that decent range and big potential damage (if properly assisted), it's just peachy. Paladin FINALLY gets a decent DPS and good reach, losing an useless bonus for it. Not beter DPS as Abaddon, but at least it deals it at an impressive range (or tackling slightly farther away, whichever you chose as bonus, both are fine) and with good accuracy (tracking bonus). Also, it doesn't have Abaddon's capacitor problems. Heck, even without the improved maxcap and losing the cap bonus, it's still better off cap-wise. Overall, these would pretty much "fix" all Marauders. On second thought, the new Paladin is a tad bit on the overpowered side Not that it would hurt Amarr to finally have a decent boat anyway. _ 1\|2\|3
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 06:49:00 - [152] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/10/2007 06:50:56 Originally by: Akita T How they SHOULD be : Kronos Bonuses: unchanged Vargur Bonuses : unchanged But increase the grid a bit so it can fit arties instead of ACs. Golem Bonuses (alongside MORE PG so it can fit siege launchers AND tank): 10% bonus to BS class missile velocity per Caldari BS level 10% bonus to BS class missile flight time per Caldari BS level 7.5% bonus to shield boost amount per Marauder level 5% bonus to BS class missile kinetic damage per Marauder level (pathethic) or -5% bonus to BS class launcher rate of fire per Marauder level (identical to Raven) Paladin Bonuses (alongside at least +25% base MAXCAP compared to Kronos, so roughly around +20% compared to Vargur/Golem): 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level (alternatively, a +10% web range bonus) 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level Almost spot on, I would just do the racially correct tanking bonuses and give Golem and Paladin resists rather than boost amount bonus. (Since you proposed that yourself just two posts higher, I am surprised you did not include it anyway ) And the Golem must get a damage bonus to ALL damage types, or a RoF bonus, to be a truly great mission ship. Or, since the Kronos will be the king of kinetic anyway and we do not need two, violate the racially correct bonuses here (I wonder if this is why they were nicknamed Violators?) and give it a thermal missile damage bonus. So we have one Marauder for each damage type. Also while I would love the optimal bonus on the Pally, it would probabaly make it too powerful. For PvE purposes, a cap recharge time bonus like on the new Sac would be a more balanced variant imho. Web range works too though. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.10.27 06:57:00 - [153] Originally by: Liisa Originally by: Tsanse Kinske They do seem more designed to be uber-ratters rather than mission ships, intentionally or no. For some, certainly, others are still viable in missions. Viable, sure. More than viable even. That's not saying much though. My comment was more on the overall design choices than the individual ships. The majority of hisec mission runners don't need utility slots and huge cargo holds on their deadspace clearing ship. Mission runners outside of hisec don't need a scan footprint the size of Vermont because of the ships' lousy sensor strengths. These strengths and weaknesses play out a little better for ratters, and the investment will be easier to protect. I don't particularly see the need for either new hisec mission running ships or super ratters, by the way. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 07:14:00 - [154] Originally by: Leandro Salazar I would just do the racially correct tanking bonuses and give Golem and Paladin resists rather than boost amount bonus. (Since you proposed that yourself just two posts higher, I am surprised you did not include it anyway ) Only because in missions +37.5% boost amount is usually slightly better as +33.33% tanked damage And because, TBFH, in anything but 1-vs-1 PvP, a resists bonus is hugely overpowered compared to an activetank bonus. 2-invul 5-LSE 2-CDFExtender Golems in PvP, talk about monster hitpoints (if you thought Drake was too much, wait to see this one). _ 1\|2\|3
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation	Posted - 2007.10.27 08:30:00 - [155] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 27/10/2007 02:48:04 Edited by: Akita T on 27/10/2007 02:24:43 Here's the new and revamped Marauders How they SHOULD be : I have one issue with this. You don't need to STRESS every other WORD to give momentum to your argument. Cool it, Shatner. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:08:00 - [156] Thanks for the links Shevar Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Akita T But they were designed with "missionrunning" in mind. No they weren't. They were designed for 0.0 ratting, and they're going to be awesome at it. Like several posters already explained so far, no they weren't. They didn't explain anything, they merely offered their opinons, like you did. Ward says "for missionrunners", Oveur says "**** that, not a missionship". Quotes are figurative. Looking at the ships stats now, they are clearly designed with 0.0 PvE in mind, not missionrunning.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:11:00 - [157] No, Oveur said (paraphrasing, not quoting) "calling it a mission ship is a misnomer, it won't be ONLY good for that"... which implies that still is its main purpose. _ 1\|2\|3
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:23:00 - [158] Well, however you want to interpret it, one thing is clear. The stats suggest 0.0 PvE, not missions. So at least the guy actually designing it, did not target it for mission superiority, possibly L5 utility at best. There's just no way around that. Unless you're suggesting he/they are boneheads?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:27:00 - [159] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/10/2007 10:29:03 And who exactly is going to 0.0 PvE in a 500+ mil ship that does it only marginally better than a T1 ship (or actually worse in case of the Paladin)? Really, 0.0 ratting is the last thing that needs a T2 BS to do it. Heck I would bet that my pimped Sac can do it faster against Angels than any of the Marauders except the Kronos. And plexes can be easily done with cheap T1 stuff as well. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:43:00 - [160] Edited by: Akita T on 27/10/2007 10:45:20 Originally by: Leandro Salazar a 500+ mil ship that does it only marginally better than a T1 ship (or actually worse in case of the Paladin)? 700 mil at best, you mean, looking at current market prices. Probably well over 800 mil for a long time. Originally by: Qui Shon Well, however you want to interpret it There's no "interpretation", the words are as clear as they could be. Originally by: Qui Shon Unless you're suggesting he/they are boneheads? Ye gods, he finally GOT it ! _ 1\|2\|3
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:01:00 - [161] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/10/2007 11:01:32 Originally by: Akita T They look almost exactly like what a NEWBIE missionrunner would like to have. You know, a barely-skilled one ? You know, that is too damn true. Newbies overtank their ships. They don't know which variables help them most when tweaked. They fit webs to combat scramblers. Newbies like the inefficient versatile approach. They prefer finishing safely over finishing fast. They like to loot and fight in the same ship. They don't know jack about effective dps. They don't change fittings according to missions. Hell, even I was like that when I was a n00b. And all this is stuff these ships cater to. So basically we have ships designed for a n00b approach to missions which require the skillset of a dread pilot. Definitely in line with CCPs faible for inconsistencies. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:10:00 - [162] Edited by: Shadowsword on 27/10/2007 11:10:00 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Almost spot on, I would just do the racially correct tanking bonuses and give Golem and Paladin resists rather than boost amount bonus. (Since you proposed that yourself just two posts higher, I am surprised you did not include it anyway ) It seems CCP want a tanking bonus that benefit pve much more than pve, hence the bonus to active tanking and not passive tanking. Quote: Also while I would love the optimal bonus on the Pally, it would probabaly make it too powerful. For PvE purposes, a cap recharge time bonus like on the new Sac would be a more balanced variant imho. Web range works too though. It seems also that those ships are designed to be able to take out ANY npc with their battleship-sized weapons. In low-sec, drones are a liability, making you much easier to probe. In a lot of missions, npc spawns that havn't aggroed you will still fire on your drones. The web efficiency bonus is a good one, imho. a 50% web range bonus would be much, much less usefull. Amost useless, in fact, because you'd still have to resort to drones to kill frigs. And any npc frig webbed at 15km might still have enough momentum to get in it's orbit range, at which point your web range is useless. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:11:00 - [163] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 11:12:17 Actually its quite simple what a mission runner wants: High Alpha to one volley as much cruiser/bc's as possible. Fast ROF. If you kill fast you dont have to tank long.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:14:00 - [164] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Qui Shon Well, however you want to interpret it There's no "interpretation", the words are as clear as they could be. The Marauders are ships that were supposed to be designed PRIMARILY for missionrunning, PvE in general, and not completely suck at PvP. Guess what ? You can keep repeating that as many times as you like, that won't make it set in stone. What we have are loose impressions from two Devs, nothing more. If they are as boneheaded as you think, obviously they are not going to be very precise in their wording, now are they, so then you can't draw definitive conclusions from a couple of comments. I was thinking more of Plex finishing then belt ratting. I've only got about 4 hours total experience of beltratting, but from what I saw, it doesn't require a tank at all. I did it in a couple Vexors. A T1, tier 1 cruiser, purchased and fit for under 10-15million isk. Single Vex might lack dps, but two take down battleships just fine.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:25:00 - [165] Qui Shon, that's precisely the point. They HINTED at what they would be, we HOPED it would be a missionrunner ship based on their NOT EVEN SUBLTE "hints", but THEY ARE NOT. Wether they fracked up in wording or promises, wether they actually meant that but didn't get it right because they're bloody missionrunning n00bs, or any other reason whatsoever, fact remains, they SUCK compared even to the "worst case scenario" of our expectations. Get it now ? _ 1\|2\|3
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:30:00 - [166] Originally by: Qui Shon Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Qui Shon Well, however you want to interpret it There's no "interpretation", the words are as clear as they could be. The Marauders are ships that were supposed to be designed PRIMARILY for missionrunning, PvE in general, and not completely suck at PvP. Guess what ? You can keep repeating that as many times as you like, that won't make it set in stone. What we have are loose impressions from two Devs, nothing more. If they are as boneheaded as you think, obviously they are not going to be very precise in their wording, now are they, so then you can't draw definitive conclusions from a couple of comments. I was thinking more of Plex finishing then belt ratting. I've only got about 4 hours total experience of beltratting, but from what I saw, it doesn't require a tank at all. I did it in a couple Vexors. A T1, tier 1 cruiser, purchased and fit for under 10-15million isk. Single Vex might lack dps, but two take down battleships just fine. why would the plexrunn better than a cnr?
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:32:00 - [167] Because they can tank better, and spare slots for opening cans.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:48:00 - [168] Btw, what are all the bonuses of the new Nightmare right now, on testserver?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 12:38:00 - [169] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/10/2007 12:38:10 Role bonus: +100% Laser damage Caldari BS: +5% Laser damage Amarr BS: +7.5% Laser tracking Which actually makes it better than the current Paladin despite having only half as many bonuses and no resist boost... There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.10.27 12:39:00 - [170] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/10/2007 12:38:10 Role bonus: +100% Laser damage Caldari BS: +5% Laser damage Amarr BS: +7.5% Laser tracking Which actually makes it better than the current Paladin despite having only half as many bonuses and no resist boost... Does it also still have more powergrid?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 12:43:00 - [171] Yep. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 13:46:00 - [172] So... right now... at current SiSi stats... for missionrunning... Caldari have Golem worse as CNR (but at least not worse as Rattlesnake), Amarr have Paladin worse as Nightmare. Minmatar have Vargur better as both Machariel and fleet Tempest, Gallente have Kronos better as Navy Mega, and arguably better as Vindicator too (since practically almost no missions allow MWDs, one bonus is just wasted). Right ? _ 1\|2\|3
Shevar Minmatar A.W.M Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.10.27 13:51:00 - [173] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 27/10/2007 12:38:10 Role bonus: +100% Laser damage Caldari BS: +5% Laser damage Amarr BS: +7.5% Laser tracking Which actually makes it better than the current Paladin despite having only half as many bonuses and no resist boost... When I first saw this I thought yay CCP found a nice way to boost amarr ships. But then again a few weeks later I saw the paladin . --- -The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 14:49:00 - [174] Edited by: d026 on 27/10/2007 14:52:19 Originally by: Qui Shon Because they can tank better, and spare slots for opening cans. you can tank all plexes just fine in a cerb or nighthawk with all the essential hacking/salvage/archeology gear. why bring a multi billion ship? its not that you get much dps from profession sites anyway.. for deds and unknowns (especially escallation ones) i doubt you wanna use a multi bilion bs, especially if you can tank most in a hac, af..
Liisa Absolutely No Retreat	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:54:00 - [175] Originally by: Akita T snip Minmatar have Vargur better as both Machariel and fleet Tempest, snip Right ? Well, since the Vargur can only use autocannons without using lots of fitting mods (1400s needs three to four fitting mods/rigs) you're stuck with a max range of 35km unless you use falloff rigs or barrage ammo. Falloff rigs mean no CCCs which means less cap to chase down battleships and tank. Barrage means you better only be fighting angels. Fleet tempest, yes, but then the Maelstrom is also better than the fleet tempest for missions unless you go into faction/deadspace setups on the fleet tempest. Macharial: Hell no. 6 artilleries just does far better because of the range advantage. Also the ability to either speed/snipe or armor tank makes this baby far more useful. Signature Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:14:00 - [176] While the Golem might suck in a damage sense against faction fitted CNR's, it is probably on par with a T2 fitted CNR. The reason for this is that it'll be easier to tank well. A T2 fitted CNR has a hard time keeping an XL perma-tank up and still fit 3 BCU's, whereas this is much easier on the Golem. If you compare a 3 BCU Golem with a 2 BCU CNR, you're fairly close to even damage-wise, and still have higslots for salvagers/tractors... All in all, for the non-faction crowd, it should mean faster and safer mission completion altogether.... Not that I think that's what the game needs. Missions are far too good money. NOTE 1: I'll not get one but keep flying my perma-tanked, Gist XL fitted CNR. That ship has a 3b price-tag though.... NOTE 2: I don't fly that ship on this char. No need to start making locater agent queries Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.10.27 18:59:00 - [177] Originally by: Kerfira While the Golem might suck in a damage sense against faction fitted CNR's, it is probably on par with a T2 fitted CNR. The reason for this is that it'll be easier to tank well. A T2 fitted CNR has a hard time keeping an XL perma-tank up and still fit 3 BCU's, whereas this is much easier on the Golem. If you compare a 3 BCU Golem with a 2 BCU CNR, you're fairly close to even damage-wise, and still have higslots for salvagers/tractors... All in all, for the non-faction crowd, it should mean faster and safer mission completion altogether.... Not that I think that's what the game needs. Missions are far too good money. NOTE 1: I'll not get one but keep flying my perma-tanked, Gist XL fitted CNR. That ship has a 3b price-tag though.... NOTE 2: I don't fly that ship on this char. No need to start making locater agent queries if you want to earn isk as fast as possible you dont do it afk.. thus you could also run your lvl 4's in a much more cheap passive drake than a cnr. if you dont gank the cnr there is imho not really a point using it over anything else.. cnr is good because it dmg not its tank..
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.10.27 19:38:00 - [178] Originally by: Kerfira A T2 fitted CNR has a hard time keeping an XL perma-tank up and still fit 3 BCU's, whereas this is much easier on the Golem. I would also to like to point out that you don't need permatank for lev 4 missions. You need to last long enough to do them without needing to warp out. I use faction only in 'gank' section on CNR and are able to do all of them with just T2 tank (having also target painter in there) using cap injector. Altho granted, it can get tricky in laggier locations. For those who can afford it faction tank adds some comfort for not having to babysit their shieldboosters. Whats best - CNR with faction 'gank' and T2 tank is approx the same price as Golem base hull shall be. It's also not cost effective to suidice gank it as if approx half modules survive they will not cover the insurance + fitting costs needed to kill it before concord.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:05:00 - [179] Heh, so not even Vargur has it better as Machariel you say ? That makes 3 out of 4 Marauders that have a better alternative in form of faction ships (which, coincidentally, are still cheaper as the new T2s will be). _ 1\|2\|3
Disco Flint Caldari Disco Corp.	Posted - 2007.10.28 00:52:00 - [180] Originally by: Dragon Lord Well as a vetran mission runner the only thing i give a dam about is dmg, insaine amounts of dmg, tanking is all well and good but if u have immense dps u dont need much tank so why dont they give the ships mega dps sensor strength and ecm resistance but make there tanks weaker than there t1 couterparts. As a professional missioner you would use faction and officer gear on ur mission ship anyway for speed so you could still get a good tank, but for pvp your tank would be should be far worse so that your not a solo pwn mobile. so say 5 mids and 5 lows for the golem but 8 missile slot highs with 100% dmg bonus for insaine pwnage, oh and lower shield and armour resistance, that way only skilled mission runners would use them in pve which you should be by the time you get the skills and as for pvp you wont tank for ****. Oh I'd love such a ship. For the hole 3 days until the nerfbat hits. :)

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