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Dragon Lord
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.10.28 00:59:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 28/10/2007 01:00:32
Edited by: Dragon Lord on 28/10/2007 01:00:22
well every ship should have a weakness and the golem ect should have crap tanking, so it dies very very fast if u can servive the dmg from it. But you i guess it would prob still be overpowered.
One idea did come to mind though, how about a special bonus to these ships allowing them to use mwd's in deadspace, it would be a very nice buff to mission running and would have no effect on there pvping ability.
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2007.10.28 01:22:00 -
[182]
 Originally by: Akita T
So... right now... at current SiSi stats... for missionrunning...
Caldari have Golem worse as CNR (but at least not worse as Rattlesnake), Amarr have Paladin worse as Nightmare.
Minmatar have Vargur better as both Machariel and fleet Tempest, Gallente have Kronos better as Navy Mega, and arguably better as Vindicator too (since practically almost no missions allow MWDs, one bonus is just wasted).
Right ?
no way Vargur is going to be better than fleet pest or mach
(that are also waaay more pvp capable), in pve compare it to a phoon or a maelstrom and you see that is worse not only to faction ships but even than tech1 ones (and tier1 too :( )
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 02:23:00 -
[183]
So, basically, it's only Kronos that's any good at all, right ?
What changes would you propose for Vargur, other than an increase in grid to allow it to fit arties ?
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StonerReakingHavok
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:03:00 -
[184]
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 05:35:00 -
[185]
That's a grim, pessimistic way of looking at it 
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.10.28 06:05:00 -
[186]
Well, considering that there is only minor tweaking required for critical improvements on the three subpar Marauders which would bring them up to Kronos levels, I have not yet lost hope that CCP might see reason. They have done some surprising buffs for missioners in the past few months (like increasing gate jump radius), so I was beginning to hope they had lost some of their gankbearish anti-missioner bias recently. But then the Marauders' bonuses hit Sisi...
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 07:15:00 -
[187]
Well, the torpedo balance (i.e. huge range nerf, slight DPS buff) was a pretty nasty blow to Raven (and variants) missionrunners already, now they go on and give the Golem torpedo-specific usage bonuses, it's just adding insult to injury.
On the other hand, yes, just changing a couple of the bonuses on each of the Marauders (except Kronos which is fine) would buff them hugely for missionrunning, so I too hope they will reconsider and change them like that.
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TradeUnion first
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:28:00 -
[188]
The problem from my perspective is that lvl. 4 missions are ALREADY easy-to-normal to do with t2 Raven fit. Why make an uber PVE machine for missions that you can already beat with the current Raven? And if you make the missions harder, then you will be able to do them only with CNR or the proposed Marauder changed ships which will be a huge hit for the ordinary mission runners.
So, let's face it - CNR is king and will be king. Not so expensive nowadays, low skill requirements. Why improve something that is way too good already?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 08:52:00 -
[189]
You can already do L4s in a Drake, which is cheaper as a normal Raven ? Why get in a Raven for that ?
You can do it in a T2 Raven, why buy a CNR and faction-fit it ?
You're missing the point here...
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:00:00 -
[190]
Edited by: d026 on 28/10/2007 09:01:13
Originally by: Akita T
You can already do L4s in a Drake, which is cheaper as a normal Raven ? Why get in a Raven for that ?
You can do it in a T2 Raven, why buy a CNR and faction-fit it ?
You're missing the point here...
Drake for afk missionwhoring on your alt, Raven for speed (till you can aford a CNR), CNR for better speed.. Makes sense to use a Raven over a Drake or vice verca.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 09:01:00 -
[191]
That's exactly what I was saying to "TradeUnion first", in a sarcastic manner 
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.10.28 10:01:00 -
[192]
Edited by: d026 on 28/10/2007 10:01:56
Originally by: Akita T
That's exactly what I was saying to "TradeUnion first", in a sarcastic manner
i should probably work on my english skills:)
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Ath Amon
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Posted - 2007.10.28 10:12:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Akita T
So, basically, it's only Kronos that's any good at all, right ?
What changes would you propose for Vargur, other than an increase in grid to allow it to fit arties ?
we have to ships that can perform well in pve: Phoon (best minnie mission runner due to missiles+drones) and Mael, still decent with arty, good tankage and easy to fit
the T2 ship should be based on one of these models not on the pest so imo the ships vaug should get a total overhaul
if it should be a mission runner ship it should use missiles or will be always inferior to the phoon, for my taste i'll keep it with same slot allocation as the phoon and bonus to armor repair
second route will be an arty boat similar to mael, so more pg, at least 7 mids and a revision of bonuses, imo a web bonus will be pretty handly here as arty tracks pretty bad :P so instead of faloff and tracking something like web range (as recons) and web str, to immobilize ships at close to mid range and pound them with big guns.
now this ship can be pretty effective even in pvp, even if it have to consider that it will sacrifice tankage for webbers. (anyway i don't see any reason why these ships should be not good even in pvp)
i think that devs where a bit scared by these ships, they didn't want to turn then in the solopownmobile or to make all T1 BS obsolete, but imo the design to make "pve" ships that are not good in pvp is a bit flawed, these are tech2, there should be no fear to make them better than T1.
if that is the fear then the ship should have been designed to be very specific in a given role and not just "good in pve".
Originally by: Diana Merris
Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
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Gaius Sejanus
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.28 18:00:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Gaius Sejanus on 28/10/2007 18:01:22
Fixing the Kronos as a mission ship? Ok:
# Hull: Dominix / Creodron (Mega --> Sin)
# Slots: 7/5/6, 3 turrets
# Fitting: 650tf, 10,000mw
# Capacitor: 5400, 1000s recharge
# Drones: 125Mbit/s bandwidth, 400m3 dronebay
# Propulsion: 135m/s, 110,000,000kg
# Tech II resistance bonus: 25% kinetic, 12.5% thermal
# Cargo: 1275m3
Bonuses:
# 5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per Gallente BS level
# 10% Drone Damage/Hitpoints per Gallente BS level
# 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level
# 7.5% Drone speed increase per Marauder level
# Role bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid turret damage
# Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams
Ta-da! Now the only thing it needs is a completely new hull design, cause the Dominix is fugly, even changing it to be neon green.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.28 23:28:00 -
[195]
Sadly, they have this crazy rule that Tier 1 goes to be Black Ops and tier 2 goes to be Marauder.
Besides, Kronos IS the only ship out of all marauders that IS already good as mission ship... sure, it would be an even better missionrunner if it was a Dominix Marauder, but... meh...
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Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:00:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Daelin Blackleaf on 29/10/2007 03:05:34
Originally by: Akita T
So, basically, it's only Kronos that's any good at all, right ?
It's a Mega with an extra turret and a web and tanking bonus...
The web bonus isn't going to help because few NPC's hang around in web range, the tanking bonus is pointless because a twin LARII rep is already better than a Gisti C rep.
It might be better than the Megathron for mission running but it's certainly not better than the Dominix and it won't be anywhere near as good as a CNR.
If the Kronos was good for mission running we'd all already be running missions in Megathrons because really the only difference is a single turrets worth of DPS.
Nice for ratting, good for PvP, but it certainly doesn't fill the mission runner role.
Also, people keep comparing the Marauders to their racial counterparts in terms of mission efficiency. Wouldn't it be nice if they were actually all better at mission running than any of the current t1 BS? Though if folks really insist on comparing them racially at least use the Typhoon for Minmatar and the Domi for Gallente.
Personally I think CCP messed up big time and should have given Amarr a drone boat Apoc (possibly Khanid with launchers), Gallente a souped up Dominix, Caldari.. well they got the base ship right there if not the bonuses, and Minmatar a full-missile-rack totting Typhoon.
2 Drone boats, 2 Missile boats, the weapons that mission runners currently use for two main reasons, damage switching, and ease of use. Everyone has a ship for missions that is superior to any t1 and they'd be easy to balance against each other. Sadly it's too late for that now.
[EDIT: removed "you" reference from the post to clarify the whole thing is not aimed at Akita]
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:23:00 -
[197]
Well, I was aiming at "correcting" them from the way they are now with minimal changes (you know, with base hull and developer left untouched, and as little changes in bonuses as possible).
But come to think of it, the whole approach to them was "wrong", and I would have made them completely different.
For starters, I would have picked different "developers".
Golem could have been Kaalakiota instead of Lai Dai, or at least give it the proper Lai Dai traditional bonuses.
Paladin would have been Khanid instead of Carthum, a missile boat like Sacrilege with some half-decent drones.
Kronos would have been Roden instead of Duvolle, not much of a change compared to now except a dominix-like drone HP/damage bonus instead of one that it has now, the web for instance (and at least 175m dronebay, preferably 200m, instead of current 125m).
Vargur would have remained Boundless Creations, but given more appropriate bonuses, namely both RoF and damage, on top of falloff and the boost bonus (screw the web bonus, just boost its base speed a bit more).
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:39:00 -
[198]
Originally by: Akita T
Well, I was aiming at "correcting" them from the way they are now with minimal changes (you know, with base hull and developer left untouched, and as little changes in bonuses as possible).
But come to think of it, the whole approach to them was "wrong", and I would have made them completely different.
For starters, I would have picked different "developers".
Golem could have been Kaalakiota instead of Lai Dai, or at least give it the proper Lai Dai traditional bonuses.
Paladin would have been Khanid instead of Carthum, a missile boat like Sacrilege with some half-decent drones.
Kronos would have been Roden instead of Duvolle, not much of a change compared to now except a dominix-like drone HP/damage bonus instead of one that it has now, the web for instance (and at least 175m dronebay, preferably 200m, instead of current 125m).
Vargur would have remained Boundless Creations, but given more appropriate bonuses, namely both RoF and damage, on top of falloff and the boost bonus (screw the web bonus, just boost its base speed a bit more).
Your ideas for the Golem/Vargur/Kronos are just scary lol. Not that I don't agree with your ideas. I'd LOVE to fly those ships. It's just that they'd be monsters for PVP/PVE. Vargur with your bonuses would just be awesome. Same w/ Golem and Kronos. Paladin would be crazy good.
Too bad it'll never happen lol. 
Bellum Eternus
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y
[Vid] L E G E N D A R Y I I |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.29 03:49:00 -
[199]
Whoops, sorry, typed "Roden" instead of "CreoDron" for the Kronos 
Edited now 
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FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2007.10.29 15:57:00 -
[200]
I still think that the Vargur is the ship I am most interested in. I am really looking forward to ratting with one of these ships. The ability to quickly kill a couple of triple Rogue Drone BS spawns, loot and salvage them, before having a full cargo hold and docking is going to be nice. As it is, in my Typhoon, I can kill one triple spawn, loot and salvage it, then I have to dock.
The focus of these ships is 0.0 ratting and complexes. This is more content for endgame characters. Level 4 missions are hardly endgame content, and waste most of the bonuses these ships are given.
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Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Liisa
Absolutely No Retreat
The Red Skull
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Posted - 2007.10.29 16:15:00 -
[201]
Originally by: FT Diomedes
The focus of these ships is 0.0 ratting and complexes. This is more content for endgame characters. Level 4 missions are hardly endgame content, and waste most of the bonuses these ships are given.
Please prove this. There is a difference in what you believe and what you know. There has been no official statement that these are are for 0.0 ratting and complexes and not for missions. On the other hand, we have not had a statement that they are for missions and not 0.0 content.
Signature
Your signature exceeds the 24000 byte limit allowed on the forums. -Darth Patches |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2007.10.29 18:49:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Liisa
Originally by: FT Diomedes
The focus of these ships is 0.0 ratting and complexes.
Please prove this.
Prove it? I obviously cannot prove it with a Dev statement or something such as that, but it seems obvious to me that they are designed for 0.0 ratting, Level V missions and complexes.
These ships offer NOTHING to a "normal" high sec Level 4 mission runner. My character turns 7 months (and reaches 10 million SP) in a few days. I've been running Level 4s since July. I am currently breezing through Level 4s in any BS I use - whether Typhoon, Dominix, Megathron, Raven, Navy Megathron or CNR (multiple accounts). Sure, I can still get better, but each of my ships can tank any Level 4 and complete it in a decent amount of time. "Upgrading" from a Navy Mega or CNR to a Kronos or Golem is not going to improve my mission time at all (based on what has been released so far, I think the Navy Mega and CNR are superior to the Kronos and Golem - for mission running).
Nor is upgrading to a Kronos or Golem a short term project. The skills I need to get for that are skills that generally more experienced players (carrier pilots) already have. I still have a ways to go to train for one. I don't think I am atypical judging from the age of characters I see in Level 4 mission hubs like Dodixie.
According to forum threads, the skills I would need for a Marauder are:
BS 5
Spaceship Command 5
AWU 5
Energy Grid Upgrades 5
That's not a small amount of training. I haven't plugged it into Evemon, but its probably a couple of months of training for a character at my current SP level. Assuming someone is focused on mission running skills, with no diversions (like R&D or mining), I don't see how they can be in these ships in less than 9-10 months from character birth - and have support skills at all worthy of the ships.
The price of these ships looks to be about 500 million - once people have produced enough of them to fill the initial run on them. So, they will be affordable by experienced Level 4 mission runners or 0.0 ratters. They will still cost at least 5x more than the average Level 4 mission-running hull (10x more than for a Domi).
These ships get is a bonus to tractor beams. This bonus will be very useful for ratting, it will have minimal utility for missions. If I am running a mission, I have to deal with dozens of incoming NPCs at a variety of ranges. Often, my ships kill them so fast that I am just constantly selecting new targets. Killing, looting and salvaging as I go will be annoying - as anyone who has ever fired a torp instead of a salvager at an NPC wreck knows. If I wait until almost all the NPCs are dead to begin looting/salvaging, this is not such a problem, but it still doesn't gain me much. Why? Because now I am sitting in the middle of a wreck field in a slow ship. Sure, most wrecks will be within the range of my tractor beams, but I probably only have 2 of them (and two salvagers).
Unless the agent has sent me more than one jump away, which is not that common, I can easily bookmark one wreck per room, jump out, complete mission and come back in a more efficient setup (Salvage Catalyst with 3x Expanded Cargohold IIs, 4x Salvager, 4x Tractor Beams, AB, Cap Recharger, 3x Salvage Tackle Rigs) and process all the wrecks in very short order. The Salvage Tackle Rigs REALLY cut down on the time you spend salvaging. With Salvaging IV, it rarely takes me more than one cycle with a single salvager to finish a BS wreck. Not so without the rigs.
Or, if I have a second account, I can follow behind my mission runner and work things that way.
Conversely, if I am ratting, I only have to manage a few targets, so I can more easily target the wrecks and the BSs at the same time. And, the big cargohold is useful, because I can carry lots of ammo for long ratting sessions (in "normal" 0.0) or I can halve the number of trips I need to take alloys back to base (in Drone Regions).
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Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2007.10.29 19:03:00 -
[203]
Furthermore, in 0.0, it is harder to jump back to base and switch ships to come back to loot and salvage. If you are chaining spawns properly, you will still have frigates and other small ships in the belts. These can make short work of a salvage ship, unless there is another person there tanking them. Moreover, when they respawn, they may target your loot ship. So, the Marauder allows you to remain on station longer and keep working those profitable triple BS spawns, while still collecting loot and salvage.
Due to the double damage bonus on the 4 weapon slots, the Marauders will not give up any DPS to fit the salvaging/looting gear on the ship. This is not true for most existing BS setups - where ships would have to give up a weapon or two to fit salvager+tractor beam. On this count, the Marauders are clearly superior to normal BSs for ratting - especially in the Drone Regions, where looting the wrecks is mandatory.
These ships also have the ability to fit very good tanks (as shown all over the place in this thread). Tanks that are not needed for Level IV missions, but might be very needed for 0.0 complexes or Level V missions.
So, it seems to me, based on my experience in mission running and 0.0 ratting, that these ships will not be better for mission running but they will be better for 0.0. So, to me, this "proves" that these ships are for 0.0.
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Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.29 20:16:00 -
[204]
I think most people are missing the point
It's not designed to **** all over your regular mission running ships. Which is good, CCP is giving you options rather than taking them away.
The way I see it they are designed to do s similar job but at the same time fit a salvager and a couple of tractor beams and fill up their large cargo bay with loot/salvage.
What is better:
They use about half the amo, good if your using faction/T2
T2 resists
Problem, yes the caldari one has a bigger problem with defenders.
Excuse me while a shead a tear for the caldari mission runners...
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Rank: Tech 1 and a 1/2 cannon fodder
Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc? |
Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Eve University
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Posted - 2007.10.29 20:20:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
What is better:
They use about half the amo, good if your using faction/T2
T2 resists
So buy better faction hards and a LOT of ammo instead??
Hell you can cross train to an armor tanker to do level 4's if you want better EM/therm resists for less SP and ISK.
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.10.29 20:46:00 -
[206]
The Golem is an excellent mission running vessel. Just because you can't think an inch out of the box and have a lot of peers that agree with you does not change that.
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Byzan Zwyth
Dark Centuri Inc.
Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.10.29 20:49:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
What is better:
They use about half the amo, good if your using faction/T2
T2 resists
So buy better faction hards and a LOT of ammo instead??
Hell you can cross train to an armor tanker to do level 4's if you want better EM/therm resists for less SP and ISK.
What's your point? you can put those same faction hards on the T2 and have a better tank again.
Cross train? There is always a better ship if you are willing to cross train, not a valid point.
Fact remains it's not meant to be the single best go to ship for missions and be the best at everything.
What it is is another valid option.
If it was better in every way you would get the faction ship pilots crying because their ships were made obsolite.
Accept the ships for what they are.
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Rank: Tech 1 and a 1/2 cannon fodder
Pointless forum slowing bandwidth hogging signature pic inc? |
FT Diomedes
Gallente
Ductus Exemplo
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Posted - 2007.10.29 20:57:00 -
[208]
Edited by: FT Diomedes on 29/10/2007 20:58:27
Originally by: J Valkor
The Golem is an excellent mission running vessel. Just because you can't think an inch out of the box and have a lot of peers that agree with you does not change that.
Have you used it? And I mean this honestly. Have you flown it on Sisi? In a mission? How does it compare with a normal Raven or CNR, based on actual experience?
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Improvize. Adapt. Overcome. |
Kelbesque Crystalis
Minmatar
Eve University
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Posted - 2007.10.29 21:11:00 -
[209]
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Originally by: Kelbesque Crystalis
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
What is better:
They use about half the amo, good if your using faction/T2
T2 resists
So buy better faction hards and a LOT of ammo instead??
Hell you can cross train to an armor tanker to do level 4's if you want better EM/therm resists for less SP and ISK.
What's your point? you can put those same faction hards on the T2 and have a better tank again.
But its way more tank than you need for level 4's. My point was on a ISK/perfromance ratio, you can get alot more for your money by skipping the T2 BS.
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Cross train? There is always a better ship if you are willing to cross train, not a valid point.
But why would you ever train up for a T2 that is eclipsed by a T1 ship via cross training? Esp you can be in a T1 BS fairly quickly compared to a T2.
Originally by: Byzan Zwyth
Fact remains it's not meant to be the single best go to ship for missions and be the best at everything.
What it is is another valid option.
If it was better in every way you would get the faction ship pilots crying because their ships were made obsolite.
Accept the ships for what they are.
The Vagur in particular is less desirable than all the minnie BS's and faction BS's as it can not even fit the primary mission running projectile weapons (not enough grid). As it stands now, its not a viable option, unless you happen to love chasing down BS's with auto cannons. While this is fine for some missions that put you at point blank in the frey, other are just down right painful. It would be like forcing all raven pilots to use the new torps (30km range max) on their T2 BS.
The other T2 BS's have similar problems.
I'll stick to my current T1 ship. Cost and SP are perfectly fine if I get something out of it. I'd buy a faction BS for missions, but not the T2's even if they were cheaper as they stand now. They are not even in the running.
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Dracas Bloodmoon
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Posted - 2007.10.30 00:27:00 -
[210]
So how many people can loot and salvage in a CNR while killing?
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