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Zakarazor
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Posted - 2007.12.07 19:59:00 -
[451]
what about we scrap the tracking distruptor bonus and give the curse and pilgrim a bonus that bring back the nos to full strenght but only on those 2 ships? that will let the pilgrim usefull again at the same time as it keep nos from being overpowered...
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.12.08 07:52:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Zakarazor what about we scrap the tracking distruptor bonus and give the curse and pilgrim a bonus that bring back the nos to full strenght but only on those 2 ships? that will let the pilgrim usefull again at the same time as it keep nos from being overpowered...
If only it was that easy. Oh wait.
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Juana Morlaine
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Posted - 2007.12.08 11:35:00 -
[453]
Wow huge thread. I am looking for my long term training goal in EvE and always wanted to fly the Pilgrim. Reading this I am now very unsure.
Honestly: should I continue training for Pilgrim or not??
Thank you.
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2007.12.08 18:54:00 -
[454]
Originally by: Juana Morlaine Wow huge thread. I am looking for my long term training goal in EvE and always wanted to fly the Pilgrim. Reading this I am now very unsure.
Honestly: should I continue training for Pilgrim or not??
Thank you.
Its a very limited ship, but provided you stick to a limited selection of targets its possibly still the better 'solo' recon out of them all. If you're looking for a gang ship, then the other recons are a better bet.
C.
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
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Jackal79
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Posted - 2007.12.08 19:09:00 -
[455]
Amarr laser ships or gallente hybrid ships are totally screwed if you catch one alone in your web/neut range. Tracking disruptor nerf means you can't really engage a minmatar projectile ship without considerable risk.
By the way, if I still fit a tracking disruptor on a pilgrim, should I use it unscripted or fit a tracking speed script in it? I haven't had a chance to experiment with it much yet.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.12.08 19:18:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Jackal79 Amarr laser ships or gallente hybrid ships are totally screwed if you catch one alone in your web/neut range. Tracking disruptor nerf means you can't really engage a minmatar projectile ship without considerable risk.
By the way, if I still fit a tracking disruptor on a pilgrim, should I use it unscripted or fit a tracking speed script in it? I haven't had a chance to experiment with it much yet.
with the testing i did on sisi, tracking speed script is the way to go. My setup had 2x TD's, i took one off and added a stasis web. seems good enough to kill solo noobs
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Feng Schui
Minmatar The Ninja Coalition Drunken N Disorderly
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Posted - 2007.12.09 05:12:00 -
[457]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 09/12/2007 05:12:29 joy, got recon to level 5 today, and what happens?
both of my pilgrims go pop (hurricane with T1 drones using autocannons, yay for tracking disruptors.. oh yea, the pilgrim has to operate well within optimal range of autocannons..
and then to a "bait and gank" blob, why? no ******* range.
finishing combat drone op 5, then i'm training minmatar recon 5. **** this ****.
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McFly
Path of Light R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.12.09 05:43:00 -
[458]
A Pilgrim Success Story...
Recently I used a pilgrim to investigate a cyno near my alliance's 0.0 holding in lowsec. I found a very pretty Mammoth sitting with the Cyno and an Ammarian Dreadnought a little ways off. I called it out in the intel chan and soon had a gang ready to jump in the system. The dread warped off as the gang came in, (he had been 100k from the hauler) and I popped the cyno hauler quickly. Keeping an eye out to where the dread warped, the gang soon had him tackled at a gate, (why would you warp a dread to a gate is beyond me..)
Anyway the pilgrim still has a limited value in popping cyno alts in haulers. But that seems to be the extent of it's abilities until something gets done. But just thought I'd put in .02 isk on the current value of the pilgrim.... --
--my opinions do not reflect that of my corp nor my alliance-- |
Phaedruss
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Posted - 2007.12.09 06:07:00 -
[459]
Originally by: McFly
Anyway the pilgrim still has a limited value in popping cyno alts in haulers. But that seems to be the extent of it's abilities until something gets done. But just thought I'd put in .02 isk on the current value of the pilgrim....
A: I'm something that can cloak and kill cyno haulers Q: What is a Pilgrim?
I've had similar experiences popping haulers in my Anathema
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Pilgrippa
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.09 06:14:00 -
[460]
Don't get me wrong. I too would like an adjustment to the pilgrim at least. But lets get a little perspective. If we're talking about straight up recon fights, amarr has the best combat recon, and arguably the best force recon.
Recon Comparison:
Curse > Huginn > Rook > Lachesis
Rapier > Pilgrim > Falcon > Arazu
You could argue that a rapier doesn't have the dps to break a pilgrim's tank, but it could spend all day trying at least. If that pilgrim ever got the rapier webbed, it would be game over. The pilgrim is easily able to defeat the other 2 recons.
The curse is somewhat threatened by the huginn, but a good pilot should win most encounters. Curse vrs falcon or arazu = curse wins every time.
It's too bad that the pilgrim is not able to use nos like it used to, but it's still a damn fine ship capable of killing many things. Take advantage of the price :)
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Pilgrippa
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.09 06:23:00 -
[461]
Just one more note regarding tracking disruption.
Yes it recieved a nerf. With decent skills, you will still reduce a targets tracking by over 60%. The optimal range script will probaly never be used.
This module should only really be considered a drone saver. The problem with the pilgrim was getting webbed, which negated the TD effect.
A good rule of thumb for any pilgrim pilot is not to get webbed, by anything it can't nos out or tank. (read Battleship) This wasn't much of a problem before the nos nerf, but it is now.
There aren't many cruiser size ships, or even battlecruiser size that the pilgrim can't kill solo. Let's see a falcon, or an arazu claim the same thing.
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Phaedruss
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Posted - 2007.12.09 06:34:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Pilgrippa Don't get me wrong. I too would like an adjustment to the pilgrim at least. But lets get a little perspective. If we're talking about straight up recon fights, amarr has the best combat recon, and arguably the best force recon.
Recon Comparison:
Curse > Huginn > Rook > Lachesis
Rapier > Pilgrim > Falcon > Arazu
You could argue that a rapier doesn't have the dps to break a pilgrim's tank, but it could spend all day trying at least. If that pilgrim ever got the rapier webbed, it would be game over. The pilgrim is easily able to defeat the other 2 recons.
The curse is somewhat threatened by the huginn, but a good pilot should win most encounters. Curse vrs falcon or arazu = curse wins every time.
It's too bad that the pilgrim is not able to use nos like it used to, but it's still a damn fine ship capable of killing many things. Take advantage of the price :)
I guess it depends on what you believe to be their primary role, but do you think it's reasonable to base the worth of a recon on its ability to solo kill other recons?
It's true I replaced my Curse and T2 fittings for under 100 mil yesterday, which was nice, but that price reflects something more than the cost of building the things.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.09 19:26:00 -
[463]
Originally by: Pilgrippa
Rapier > Pilgrim > Falcon > Arazu
It's too bad that the pilgrim is not able to use nos like it used to, but it's still a damn fine ship capable of killing many things. Take advantage of the price :)
Claims without proof. If you believe that list to be true, then add arguments and on how Pilgrim fills its role. Comparing the ability to kill other racial ships of tis class makes you look... well go figure.
The same list in assett for gang looks totally different. __
- click here - |
kiera0990
Imperial Shipment
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Posted - 2007.12.10 08:10:00 -
[464]
Sort of liked the options of making nos usable prechange like on pilg & curse. Would make sense seeing how they are two of three specific nos ships now (minus faction ships).
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Pilgrippa
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.10 17:08:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Hydrogen
Originally by: Pilgrippa
Rapier > Pilgrim > Falcon > Arazu
It's too bad that the pilgrim is not able to use nos like it used to, but it's still a damn fine ship capable of killing many things. Take advantage of the price :)
Claims without proof. If you believe that list to be true, then add arguments and on how Pilgrim fills its role. Comparing the ability to kill other racial ships of tis class makes you look... well go figure.
The same list in assett for gang looks totally different.
Yeah, that list looks totally different in assets to a gang, but when has the pilgrim ever been a great gang ship. Everyone uses it solo. Is that it's intended role? I dunno, but it does it pretty well, or used to. I think my point was that the pilgrim is a different class of recon. One that can kill stuff.
Even the curse is not that great in a gang, but has the perception of being a solo roamer like the vagabond. Do you want them to be gang ships? I don't get it.
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Clavius XIV
Auctoritan Syndicate Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.10 17:15:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Pilgrippa Do you want them to be gang ships? I don't get it.
Uh yes.. they are EW support first, not killers. If you have crusier V and want a killer HACs make more sense for the role.
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Pilgrippa
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.10 17:27:00 -
[467]
Well current gang dynamics make it hard for a pilgrim to add much to any gang. For small gangs a curse does really well for anti nano stuff. Armour tanked with a couple guardians does really well.
I'll just say, that I think the pilgrim is very crippled compared to what it was. It was never overpowered to begin with, but it was very useable.
It needs help in the capacitor department. The ability to run 3 neuts with a natural recharge is what I'd like to see. Either through a neut cap use bonus, or a cap recharge bonus.
P.S. Even with this change, it would still be crap in a gang :P
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Doomsday
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Posted - 2007.12.11 09:08:00 -
[468]
/signed
Give the Pilgrim some love.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.11 23:12:00 -
[469]
I read some posts and thought: "well maybe I am wrong so I go out for a test run"
test ship: Pilgrim, dual rep, rep rigs (max T2 tank) environment: 1vs1 to Drake (T2 tank, but low missile skills)
result: - able to closely tank it (until the 8x800 cap charges are out) - running Neut + Nos permanently (until the 8x800 cap charges are out) - unable to break tank - unable to hold cap down
conclusion: - Pilgrim definitly is not a solo ship, as it lacks standing power (lack of space for cap charges). - Pilgrim cap management is extremly tight, thus the Pilgrim is extremly vulnerable. - Pilgrim is unable to take advantage of the cloak due to range and target delay. - Pilgrim can not kill. - Nos/Neut management plain sucks - target's cap booster disables any cycled Nos/Neut management. ... so much more... disgusting __
- click here - |
Zhulik
Abyss Restless Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2007.12.11 23:18:00 -
[470]
It is widely known that drakes are deathly afraid of pilgrims.
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.12.11 23:25:00 -
[471]
hey Hydro, now that the curse/pilgrim have a little brother, what do you think of that one aswell? An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.12 09:38:00 -
[472]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 12/12/2007 09:39:21
Originally by: Zhulik It is widely known that drakes are deathly afraid of pilgrims.
Drake = heavily cap dependant on shield. Anyways it is not so much about the Drake. The thing about solo capabilities and running out of cap boosters (only able to carry 9x800's) sure is a major issue. Also if it is a T2 solo ship, it should be able to bring on a T1 BC. Mark me, where the Drake pilot was for sure at about average skills and the Pilgrim pilot at close to maximum skills.
So, it is not a solo ship as it is now. Also: - lack of cargo space to bring cap booster charges - tight cap management even with cap booster - lack of versatility
are points from that "test". __
- click here - |
Pilgrippa
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.12.12 11:40:00 -
[473]
Pilgrim vrs Drake? Are you serious?
Look man, I'm on your side about the Pilgrim, but maybe try your test on a Brutix, or some other active tank first.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.12 11:49:00 -
[474]
Originally by: Pilgrippa Pilgrim vrs Drake? Are you serious?
Look man, I'm on your side about the Pilgrim, but maybe try your test on a Brutix, or some other active tank first.
Nah please just look at the reasoning right above your post. __
- click here - |
Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.16 15:41:00 -
[475]
Some more frustrating experiences in Pilgrim.... If only I could at lest carry some more Cap charges and could survive close combat. Be it gang or solo... __
- click here - |
Dillius Archania
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.16 18:31:00 -
[476]
Really bugs me, since I finally finished Amarr Cruiser 5 and now I just really don't know if it was worth it, between the issues with the Pilgrim and the Zealot lately.
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Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.16 18:59:00 -
[477]
Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 16/12/2007 19:14:53 Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 16/12/2007 19:00:37
Originally by: Hydrogen I read some posts and thought: "well maybe I am wrong so I go out for a test run"
test ship: Pilgrim, dual rep, rep rigs (max T2 tank) environment: 1vs1 to Drake (T2 tank, but low missile skills)
result: - able to closely tank it (until the 8x800 cap charges are out) - running Neut + Nos permanently (until the 8x800 cap charges are out) - unable to break tank - unable to hold cap down
conclusion: - Pilgrim definitly is not a solo ship, as it lacks standing power (lack of space for cap charges). - Pilgrim cap management is extremly tight, thus the Pilgrim is extremly vulnerable. - Pilgrim is unable to take advantage of the cloak due to range and target delay. - Pilgrim can not kill. - Nos/Neut management plain sucks - target's cap booster disables any cycled Nos/Neut management. ... so much more... disgusting
Totally wrong approach.
It's a passively tanked ship.
- The only reason to Neut a Drake is if you wonna get out and you have to break his scram, or slow it down should it actually had an AB/MWD at the first place and was trying to disengage and re-approach a gate. You would be far more efficient with a Web in the second scenario.
>>> So a better point to "look into" against a Drake is a series of questions:
Part A: Tanking Questions: 1) "Can I tank it with 1x MAR" Y/N (if N, go to Q#4) 2) "Can I perma-run 1x MAR and relative tanking mods*?" Y/N (if N, go to Q#3) 3) "Can I Q#2 with 1x or more NOS on an average Drake?" 4) "Can I tank it with 2x MARs? Y/N (if N, disengage!, if Y go to Q#5) 5) "Can I perma-run 2x MARs and relative tanking mods*?" Y/N (if N, go to Q#6) 6) "Can I Q#5 with 1x or more NOS on an average Drake?" Y/N (if N, and you have a booster go to Q#6) 7) "Can I sustain my tanking sufficiently enough with both NOS and my available 800's long enough?" Y/N (if Y, you are qualified for part B).
Part B: Ganking Questions: 1) "Can I break his tank?*" - Y/N (if N, go to #2) 2) "Do I carry or use the right drones? Cause Drakes - or the X targer - unless ratting EM dmging rats are usually EM weak" = aka KNOW YOUR OPPONENT - Y/N
*Note that peak recharge is below 50% Shields, so this takes time! So tanking is above ganking in this occasion, as there is no way you can out-dps a drake in a Pilgrim enough to make up for his 5x effective HPs. You either tank it, or you're leaving!
Getting the spirit? I'm with you in this "save amarr recons" story, just stop trying unrealistic scenarios: = Neuting a Drake Dry for nothing... = TD a Drake for nothing... All these are just wasted cap.
Since these questions with relative variations apply in each and every duel, between each and every ship type, serious testing is worthless if it doesn't adds something you didn't know. It's nothing new to me that you cannot easily gang a Drake, while I know that for example a Gang-Geddon is a nice "average" Drake killer. It doesn't impress or inform anyone understanding both Drakes and Pilgrims even a bit, posting these "results".
Be constructive and resonuble in your arguments.
** EDIT: some EFTing: a typical Drake with 2xLSE (to leave room for PVP) has 10-13,5K ΗP shields. Assuming 0 EM resistances and Infiltrators II = <170dps you will now that there is no way to break him faster than ~2 minutes cause you cannot stop it's regen. But I tend to believe that you CAN actually last way more than 2minutes with 2x MAR + NOS and 10x 800s...it's like 5 circles per MAR II, per 800 charge. So more or less 1 minute per charge, per MAR II! The point is, do you TANK him with 2x MAR II and how efficiently with NOS? We know that EFT says "1x Dim NOS sustains 68% a MAR II" DOES THE DRAKE, sustain 1x NOS?
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2007.12.16 19:37:00 -
[478]
Edited by: Hydrogen on 16/12/2007 19:38:41
Originally by: Bruce Deorum Be constructive and resonuble in your arguments.
I am generally with you here. Again the thing is not neccessarily the Drake as such, but: 1. inability of Pilgrim to last in a fight due to lack of cap boosters. 2. inability to kill due to lack of dps (even in the case of the drake passive tanked about 150 effective dps are needed, maybe 180) 3. inability to tank opponents with more than average dps 4. ...
As a result the Pilgrim can't be a solo ship or is broken as such.
Like shown before the Pilgrim is not a gang ship either. Thats my attitude of proof and my point in the test.
What bothers me, that none from CCP officially acknowleges it is broken. Yet again it seems that at least one poster in this thread was from CCP or CCP-affiliated. Looking at results (nothing that is) I am more than just disappointed. __
- click here - |
Bruce Deorum
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.12.16 20:36:00 -
[479]
Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 16/12/2007 20:44:21 Edited by: Bruce Deorum on 16/12/2007 20:38:57
Originally by: Hydrogen 1. inability of Pilgrim to last in a fight due to lack of cap boosters.
Very few ships can do that actually. At least the Pilgrim can "help itself" active tank with NOS more efficiently, perhaps un-matched to it by any other ship.
Originally by: Hydrogen 2. inability to kill due to lack of dps (even in the case of the drake passive tanked about 150 effective dps are needed, maybe 180)
Choosing the right drone for the weakest dmg type is a plus...few ships can actually concentrate 170~240 dps in a single dmg type, while most ships are generally weak in one resistance. The Drake is a bad example cause it's a tanking beast. And it's a pretty big beast as well - A BC. The same fight against a Harbinger with either plated buffer or even worst - active tank could be much easier for the Pilgrim. Although the Harbinger actually gets more gank than a Drake.
Solo is all about picking fights. And an argument could be pretty much ruined if the maker picks the wrong example to "back-it up"...it could even back-fire...!!!
Place the Pilgrim in a solo situation versus a Drake -> useless as a recon, posibly useless as a tanker and ganker. It's just a cloaking cruiser with some DPS to assist his gang.
Place the Pilgrim in a solo situation versus a Prophecy -> the Pilgrim is an overpowered ship!
Originally by: Hydrogen 3. inability to tank opponents with more than average dps
It can, by actually being of comparable size and having cap-depentable weapon systems. The problem is that it' should be able to postpone or even prevent dmg inflicted on it or a gang member the first place. The fact that it cannot tank effectively with JUST its ewar is what makes it broken.
Originally by: Hydrogen As a result the Pilgrim can't be a solo ship or is broken as such.
The Vagabond is not a super tanker, not a super ganker, it's a super fight-picker thus it solos. The Pilgrim is weaker than the Vaga -> has more limitations and the good point in this comparison is that the Pilgrim cannot TD the hell out of a Vaga, one of the most range and tracking sensitive gunships.
This is a good point, the bonus % on TDs that could actually tank the Pilgrim - and JUST itself or any other ship in its gang.
It's NOS/Neuts are helpful in limited situations - and limited range limits them further. TDs are limited in both range (for long range fights) and even countered by manual navigation and such skills in close ranges.
Cause as said - most other recons can actually use their ewar as tank. Just one is enough. Etc, the Falcon doesn't have to jam and tank the same target. Nor needs to. The Rapier doesn't has to web and paint at the same time to make sense aka HARM the opponent in any way, or tank him. It knows it cannot, and uses it's ewar's range advantage to walk-around tank issues. At least webs, painters and arties that get bonuses in these ships work perfectly together against small targets The Lachesis is not a gunship either...but it can still tank remarkably just with it's damps versus more than one targets, or even foolproof tackle and criple a single one.
What makes the pilrgim weak it's the fact that its both a better ganker, and a better tanker than any of the Recons, but weak as a recon! Yes, the Falcon is also a BB with a cloak...but with a few more USE FULL bonuses.
The Pilrgim as a ganger is the same as the Arbitrator, and tanks a little better - just cause it's a T2. It's more HAS like and less Recon like than recons. It's the Jack of all trades...condemned to be "average"
It can still solo, while it's not intended for this role, cause it cloaks = it picks fights. Thats because ppl cannot do much more with it. Besides opening cynos...I wonder how many Pilrgims, or any other Force Recon, were ever bought just for that...
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Dillius Archania
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.12.16 20:54:00 -
[480]
Originally by: Bruce Deorum
Very few ships can do that actually. At least the Pilgrim can "help itself" active tank with NOS more efficiently, perhaps un-matched to it by any other ship. Choosing the right drone for the weakest dmg type is a plus...few ships can actually concentrate 170~240 dps in a single dmg type, while most ships are generally weak in one resistance. The Drake is a bad example cause it's a tanking beast. And it's a pretty big beast as well - A BC.
...
It can, by actually being of comparable size and having cap-depentable weapon systems. The problem is that it' should be able to postpone or even prevent dmg inflicted on it or a gang member the first place. The fact that it cannot tank effectively with JUST its ewar is what makes it broken.
So a Pilgrim should be expected to go through an entire hold of cap boosters per 1v1 fight, as well as having a full array of each damage type of drone (For mediums that would be 200m^3, 50 more than it actually has), have no other kinds of drones for maintenance or special purposes. Along with this you're assuming that the opponent actually HAS a weak resist, and is not generally omni tanked, which is a completely separate Amarr complaint
The problem with NOS is it can be extremely hard to tell what your opponents cap is at. Plus heck, if they realize you're using NOS to keep yourself alive, it's a simply matter for them to burn through their own, particularly if they are easily tanking your quite pathetic damage.
TD's are incredibly pathetic, I can agree with that. They really did not need the trinity nerf.
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