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Ophelia T'Kun
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Posted - 2008.07.01 20:42:00 -
[1051]
Page 4? No way!
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2008.07.02 15:33:00 -
[1052]
And still no response from GM's. Not good. ------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Jallem Sims
Minmatar Quantum Warriors
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Posted - 2008.07.02 16:06:00 -
[1053]
er.... amarr are doing well enough, i see nothing but zealots/apocs/gurdians and lots of other random amarr hulls. Tbh, hte is nothing wrong with amarr recons. They do their job.. curse is still evil if you fly it. and the point for the pilgrim is to get in there cloaked and do its damage. Cap warfare is very effective!! very very effective if used against the right ship. so is a highly damgerous ship. Every race has its dud ships, eos anyone.... the myrmidon!! Well, most of caldari ships are pretty crummy too. and you have the epically fail scimitar/claymore and most of the t1 ships tbh for minmatar.
Leave the amarr ships alone you big whiners! |
Chinkies IV
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Posted - 2008.07.02 16:12:00 -
[1054]
Originally by: Jallem Sims er.... amarr are doing well enough, i see nothing but zealots/apocs/gurdians and lots of other random amarr hulls. Tbh, hte is nothing wrong with amarr recons. They do their job.. curse is still evil if you fly it. and the point for the pilgrim is to get in there cloaked and do its damage. Cap warfare is very effective!! very very effective if used against the right ship. so is a highly damgerous ship. Every race has its dud ships, eos anyone.... the myrmidon!! Well, most of caldari ships are pretty crummy too. and you have the epically fail scimitar/claymore and most of the t1 ships tbh for minmatar.
Leave the amarr ships alone you big whiners!
I can't tell for sure whether this is sarcasm. :/
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Ambrosious Martin
Son of Man
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Posted - 2008.07.02 19:03:00 -
[1055]
Originally by: Jallem Sims er.... amarr are doing well enough, i see nothing but zealots/apocs/gurdians and lots of other random amarr hulls. Tbh, hte is nothing wrong with amarr recons. They do their job.. curse is still evil if you fly it. and the point for the pilgrim is to get in there cloaked and do its damage. Cap warfare is very effective!! very very effective if used against the right ship. so is a highly damgerous ship. Every race has its dud ships, eos anyone.... the myrmidon!! Well, most of caldari ships are pretty crummy too. and you have the epically fail scimitar/claymore and most of the t1 ships tbh for minmatar.
Leave the amarr ships alone you big whiners!
agreed.. on all amarr related issues...minni rock tho.. RFS anyone... Ruppy, cane?
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Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
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Posted - 2008.07.02 22:15:00 -
[1056]
Originally by: Jallem Sims er.... amarr are doing well enough, i see nothing but zealots/apocs/gurdians and lots of other random amarr hulls. Tbh, hte is nothing wrong with amarr recons. They do their job.. curse is still evil if you fly it. and the point for the pilgrim is to get in there cloaked and do its damage. Cap warfare is very effective!! very very effective if used against the right ship. so is a highly damgerous ship. Every race has its dud ships, eos anyone.... the myrmidon!! Well, most of caldari ships are pretty crummy too. and you have the epically fail scimitar/claymore and most of the t1 ships tbh for minmatar.
Leave the amarr ships alone you big whiners!
Ha ha ha, have you ever even flown any Amarr ship? Ifyou have read at least a few pages of this insanely long thread you would know a little of what we're talking about. Try to fly one, then talk. ------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.03 08:39:00 -
[1057]
Originally by: Jallem Sims er.... amarr are doing well enough, i see nothing but zealots/apocs/gurdians and lots of other random amarr hulls. Tbh, hte is nothing wrong with amarr recons. They do their job.. curse is still evil if you fly it. and the point for the pilgrim is to get in there cloaked and do its damage. Cap warfare is very effective!! very very effective if used against the right ship. so is a highly damgerous ship. Every race has its dud ships, eos anyone.... the myrmidon!! Well, most of caldari ships are pretty crummy too. and you have the epically fail scimitar/claymore and most of the t1 ships tbh for minmatar.
Leave the amarr ships alone you big whiners!
this post has nothing to do with other Amarr ships - so dont try and derail it. True the Curse is still a comparitively effective ship however the pilgrim is about effective as a wet paper towel. As you point out the pilgrim has to cloak and get close to do damage - a factor which makes its TDs effectively useless, places it well within web/scram range for a ship which does comparitively little damage and cannot sustain a tank vs the majority of its targets.
C.
VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare! |
tropic89
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Posted - 2008.07.03 09:53:00 -
[1058]
Originally by: Madla Mafia Edited by: Madla Mafia on 29/06/2008 17:29:53
Originally by: C0NRAD I would like to point out there is nothign wrong with the pilgrim in its current form, as a combat operationship it operates fine, which cause the dilema that the curse which is supposed to be our combat operation recon fails.
Now simply changing the pilgrim to a range bonus really dosne;t help this situation, no matter how much you buffed the curse, range bonus just inpowers the pilgrim further, especially versus things such as vagabonds.
How ever id liek to point out a few things, about our opossing races, Rapier > Huginn thansk to the extra low, and again the arazu is much prefered over the lachesis thank to the extra lows and cloak. Now all the combat recon ships got extra meds which is fine if i actually wanted to use said meds for a shield tank. But to be perfectly honest after fitting all my Ewar, points, web, im out of shield tanking slots.
In my opinnion the pilgrim is fine, what fails epically is the curse and that needs altering. Its not the comparrison in tank that needs altering its the comparrison in DPS over EWAR. The lowest DPS boats are the caldari which boast the highest ewar potential of all recons. the curse and pilgrim are at the other extreme they lack the Ewar self protection but have a highish DPS to cover for it. Now comparing with the Lachesis and Huginn both these boats have more DPS on paper due to other damage bonuses. But these bonuses arn;t really used a huge amount due to the fitting constraints in CPU and powergrid to really maximise these fits. But they are available options.
Perhaps a better fix would be to give the curse a Launcher rate of fire bonus over the tracking disruptor bonus. This would bring it more into line with the philopshy of the khanid ships. At the end of the day no recon is supposed to be a substitute for a HAC, there usefull assets for removing tactical advantages the enemy has, be that speed, Tank, DPS what ever.
B U L L S H I T.
Let me quote myself again:
Originally by: Madla Mafia If the pilgrim got this range bonus, LIKE ALL THE OTHER FORCE RECONS HAVE, then the problem would be solved.
Let me quote you're idiot quote, and retort: you're an idiot.
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Onionico
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2008.07.03 11:07:00 -
[1059]
Perhaps i missed it in all the pages... but can someone please tell me why the pilgrim doesn't have the same range bonus of all the other ships from the various races of its class? It certainly wouldn't make it overpowered.
The devs have STILL not acknowledge the pilgrim being worthless is a problem. What gives?
Falcon is awesome. Rapier is awesome. Gallente Recons not so much, by they're still are flyable.
The Pilgrim is rubbish. Utter and complete rubbish.
(unless you want to covertly haul of course.)
I'll repeat myself for easy quoting. Someone please respond to this: Perhaps i missed it in all the pages... but can someone please tell me why the pilgrim doesn't have the same range bonus of all the other ships from the various races of its class? It certainly wouldn't make it overpowered.
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Hydrogen
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.03 12:15:00 -
[1060]
Originally by: Onionico Perhaps i missed it in all the pages... but can someone please tell me why the pilgrim doesn't have the same range bonus of all the other ships from the various races of its class? It certainly wouldn't make it overpowered.
The devs have STILL not acknowledge the pilgrim being worthless is a problem. What gives?
Falcon is awesome. Rapier is awesome. Gallente Recons not so much, by they're still are flyable.
The Pilgrim is rubbish. Utter and complete rubbish.
(unless you want to covertly haul of course.)
I'll repeat myself for easy quoting. Someone please respond to this: Perhaps i missed it in all the pages... but can someone please tell me why the pilgrim doesn't have the same range bonus of all the other ships from the various races of its class? It certainly wouldn't make it overpowered.
Because... well, because... actually because of... well screw that. There is no reason for keeping the Pilgrim in its current state, neither is there a reason why no dev responds to a valid request. There is even no reason for a dev to not respond if we made a mistake.
Looking at the pattern it appears as if CCP balancing has a general problem with cloaked ships being effective in killing something: 1. Cloak below cov ops cloak: target delay + scan res penalty 2. BOs 3. Pilgrim
It is for sure a general concept and there *might* be sane reasoning behind it, but... why CCP, why dont tell us in this thread?
__
- click here - |
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Jallem Sims
Minmatar Quantum Warriors
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Posted - 2008.07.03 14:15:00 -
[1061]
Originally by: Madla Mafia
Originally by: Jallem Sims ** epically good statement ** Leave the amarr ships alone you big whiners!
Ha ha ha, have you ever even flown any Amarr ship? Ifyou have read at least a few pages of this insanely long thread you would know a little of what we're talking about. Try to fly one, then talk.
I often dream about the curse... but have more or my own racial skills to train. But i spend most my gangs surrounded by dam amarr apocs and zealots! YOur right though... the pilgrim sucks, like the gal recons too... so the whole arguement on any amarr ships getting boosted fails. they are good, just you need them to be better and are going to spend time using OLD arguments to try to keep pushing OLD lines.
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jam6549
Amarr Via Crucis
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Posted - 2008.07.03 15:29:00 -
[1062]
give the pilgrim a range bonus for TDs instead of drone damage or something so it can be an anti-sniper ship...always wanted to **** up snipers with TDs
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Anubis Hatak
OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL
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Posted - 2008.07.04 11:25:00 -
[1063]
Originally by: jam6549 give the pilgrim a range bonus for TDs instead of drone damage or something so it can be an anti-sniper ship...always wanted to **** up snipers with TDs
No.
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Xofii
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.07.04 19:38:00 -
[1064]
Originally by: Anubis Hatak
No.
Why would longrange TD's be bad? Not saying anything about the entire rewrite of the pilgrim, but seems inline with longrange ewar?
//Xo
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Misanth
The Forsakened Companions Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.04 20:26:00 -
[1065]
Originally by: Cailais this post has nothing to do with other Amarr ships - so dont try and derail it. True the Curse is still a comparitively effective ship however the pilgrim is about effective as a wet paper towel. As you point out the pilgrim has to cloak and get close to do damage - a factor which makes its TDs effectively useless, places it well within web/scram range for a ship which does comparitively little damage and cannot sustain a tank vs the majority of its targets.
C.
Pretty much that.
Pilgrims arn't as bad as people say ("absolute rubbish" is a major exaggeration). Tho what you and others mention is exactly the issue with it; it has to go close enough to tank things. And it hasn't got a tank. The day the Pilgrim get a HAC-tank or get a decent way to nano I'll be fine with having the short range energy drains, but atm it's gimping the ship by default.
Curse do fine atm, mostly thanks to speedtanking and buffer shieldtank, but if there's ever a change to nano the Curse will be vulnerable again. ewar + nos rage + faction disrupt makes it good by default by the same reasons Pilgrim are not so good by default (as it have to tank)..
I read about a third of this thread, cba to read every single post, but there's 2 simple things that needs to be done to Amarr recons:
1) Pilgrim simply need the range bonus to nos/neut. 2) Pilgrim, Curse, AND the Arbitrator need a buff to their capacitor.
Illustration of example 2: I went on a roam in my Pilgrim, with a Rapier friend (I got max cap skills btw). In one system we had a 280+ AU jump. He capped out near the end. I had to do SIX jumps. The Pilgrim (and the Curse, and the Arbitrator) have huge issues when it comes to mobility.. any fast roaming gang that don't bother to align, just straight jump.. and you cap out every now and then, slowing down the whole team. WITH MAX CAP SKILLS! No other ship have this issue. No other hull.
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Anubis Hatak
OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL
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Posted - 2008.07.05 09:58:00 -
[1066]
Originally by: Xofii
Originally by: Anubis Hatak
No.
Why would longrange TD's be bad? Not saying anything about the entire rewrite of the pilgrim, but seems inline with longrange ewar?
//Xo
Because losing the drone damage to a bonus that only affects turret based ships is just crap. It needs a boost to the nos/neuts not the tracking disruptors...
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Phaedruss
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Posted - 2008.07.05 10:40:00 -
[1067]
Originally by: Misanth
I read about a third of this thread, cba to read every single post, but there's 2 simple things that needs to be done to Amarr recons:
1) Pilgrim simply need the range bonus to nos/neut. 2) Pilgrim, Curse, AND the Arbitrator need a buff to their capacitor.
Illustration of example 2: I went on a roam in my Pilgrim, with a Rapier friend (I got max cap skills btw). In one system we had a 280+ AU jump. He capped out near the end. I had to do SIX jumps. The Pilgrim (and the Curse, and the Arbitrator) have huge issues when it comes to mobility.. any fast roaming gang that don't bother to align, just straight jump.. and you cap out every now and then, slowing down the whole team. WITH MAX CAP SKILLS! No other ship have this issue. No other hull.
I'd agree with this, though I'm a little confused about how it works. The Pilgrim has significantly more cap than a Rapier, and even with better cap skills on the Pilgrim pilot, the Rapier is able to warp significantly further. At the end of a medium warp, the Pilgrim is struggling cap-wise...on a ship that is very cap intensive to run since the nos nerf. I used to fly the Pilgrim quite a bit, but am sorry to say that its barely been touched this whole year :(
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.05 11:36:00 -
[1068]
The Rapier is much lighter so it travels further with less cap to initiate the warp...
The Pilgrim on the contrary is heavier, and tho it's cap is bigger than on other Recons, it's a bit gimped when it comes to large warps...this also gimps it's fighting capabilities, as your cap could be below 50% or even 30% when you enter the fight's grid...
Just don't over-exaggerate things: the Falcon is another Recon with sufficient cap problems itself - it caps out during long warps and it's slowing the gang, sometimes in critical situations, as unlike the Pilgrim, a single Falcon is a very precious asset for every small gang.
I'll keep on repeating:
*** Do NOT ask for range over amount for the NOS/Neuts. Those will be useless against larger than cruiser targets. And it "does" Cruisers already ffs...
Either make it HUGELY effective up close = neut BSs easily etc, or make it use Heavy Neuts = out to 24km with current 12km efficiency. Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Malcanis
We are Legend
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Posted - 2008.07.05 11:44:00 -
[1069]
Originally by: Misanth
Originally by: Cailais this post has nothing to do with other Amarr ships - so dont try and derail it. True the Curse is still a comparitively effective ship however the pilgrim is about effective as a wet paper towel. As you point out the pilgrim has to cloak and get close to do damage - a factor which makes its TDs effectively useless, places it well within web/scram range for a ship which does comparitively little damage and cannot sustain a tank vs the majority of its targets.
C.
Pretty much that.
Pilgrims arn't as bad as people say ("absolute rubbish" is a major exaggeration). Tho what you and others mention is exactly the issue with it; it has to go close enough to tank things. And it hasn't got a tank. The day the Pilgrim get a HAC-tank or get a decent way to nano I'll be fine with having the short range energy drains, but atm it's gimping the ship by default.
Curse do fine atm, mostly thanks to speedtanking and buffer shieldtank, but if there's ever a change to nano the Curse will be vulnerable again. ewar + nos rage + faction disrupt makes it good by default by the same reasons Pilgrim are not so good by default (as it have to tank)..
I read about a third of this thread, cba to read every single post, but there's 2 simple things that needs to be done to Amarr recons:
1) Pilgrim simply need the range bonus to nos/neut. 2) Pilgrim, Curse, AND the Arbitrator need a buff to their capacitor.
Illustration of example 2: I went on a roam in my Pilgrim, with a Rapier friend (I got max cap skills btw). In one system we had a 280+ AU jump. He capped out near the end. I had to do SIX jumps. The Pilgrim (and the Curse, and the Arbitrator) have huge issues when it comes to mobility.. any fast roaming gang that don't bother to align, just straight jump.. and you cap out every now and then, slowing down the whole team. WITH MAX CAP SKILLS! No other ship have this issue. No other hull.
Um, yes they do. Falcon with MWD springs immediately to mind.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Xofii
Hedion University
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Posted - 2008.07.05 16:13:00 -
[1070]
Originally by: Anubis Hatak
Because losing the drone damage to a bonus that only affects turret based ships is just crap. It needs a boost to the nos/neuts not the tracking disruptors...
i concurr that range bonused instead of drone dmg is not enough, I simply asked if the idea of long range TD's are faulty, which imo it is not on the pilgrim. Either make it a "stealth assassin" ala hydrogens wishes or make it into a long-range ewar boat like the rest in its class.
//xo
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Depp Knight
Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.06 06:58:00 -
[1071]
Good to see this thread still going. Ive been inactive lately, Pilgrim still gimped? Typical. *clap clap* ccp, good work. :(
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.06 07:06:00 -
[1072]
Dang....
I finally started fitting my pilgrim today. Seems I need Recon 4 and a 3% CPU implant to get a good fit. The Rapier sure is a lot easier to equip for its role
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.06 07:49:00 -
[1073]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Dang....
I finally started fitting my pilgrim today. Seems I need Recon 4 and a 3% CPU implant to get a good fit. The Rapier sure is a lot easier to equip for its role
read my guide :\ you need recon 5 in order to fit it without using a co-processor
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Cailais
Amarr VITOC
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Posted - 2008.07.06 10:23:00 -
[1074]
Im just going to adopt my own private boycott (sorry pilgrim producers) and not buy another Pilgrim until something is done to fix its blatant imbalances.
Its so sub-standard in comparision to the Curse it would be laughable if it wasn't so tragic.
C.
VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare! |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.06 14:20:00 -
[1075]
Bump for justice - Pilgrim needs to be looked into.
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Meridius Dex
Amarr Foundation R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.07.06 14:37:00 -
[1076]
Bump for a damn explanation from anyone who actually produces this game why the range bonus has not been implemented the same as other racial ships in this class. -- Meridius Dex --
Amarr = EVE on Hard setting |
Lysander Kaldenn
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Posted - 2008.07.07 00:06:00 -
[1077]
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 07/07/2008 00:06:44 I can say this honestly as a long time amarr recon pilot.... Stop crying... The curse is probably the best recon in game with a full rack of nuets and the pilgrim (while i would love to see a range bonus) is fine for solo hunting if you fit a booster and pick targets wisely. Ask yourself an honest question. If you were going solo pirating would you be caught dead in an arazu or a rapier, or for god's sake a falcon? Maybe the rapier, anything else is maddness. The real problem is that the ships were over-powered before and most people miss that power. Still a nuet curse will freaking solo own almost anything BC sized and smaller...sometimes even BS. Can any other recon do that? Your only problem might be passive drakes and HICs, but shouldn't every ship have a weakness? Honestly if you've lost a BS to a solo rapier, arazu or falcon you should probably be checking your fit, you should be able to tank the jesus out of anyone of them. They should lock this thread, its pointless.
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Feng Schui
Minmatar Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.07 00:17:00 -
[1078]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 07/07/2008 00:18:17 I am pretty sure that we all have come to the conclusion that yes, the curse IS a fine ship to fly.
I would like to call you out on your assumptions on the pilgrim. Unless, of course, you only enjoy (and target) newbies? (As you can see in my video, yes, newbies can be quite the fireworks display).
I would rather solo in a Falcon than a Pilgrim tbfh. At least I have the assurance that if I need to escape, I can (same can be said with the other recons, including curse).
edit: you say you're a long term amarr recon pilot, well, ever fly the pilgrim? Or just the curse?
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Diomidis
Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.07 11:36:00 -
[1079]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Still a nuet curse will freaking solo own almost anything BC sized and smaller...sometimes even BS. Can any other recon do that? Your only problem might be passive drakes and HICs, but shouldn't every ship have a weakness? Honestly if you've lost a BS to a solo rapier, arazu or falcon you should probably be checking your fit, you should be able to tank the jesus out of anyone of them. They should lock this thread, its pointless.
Your comments are pointless, cause you are the one comparing apples with oranges.
A Huginn can solo smaller than BC ships - does that proves something? In larger gangs with BSs present, rook and huginn > curse IMHO, tho not as capable to solo stuff, and long range scram - even damps - have their uses too.
The thing is that both Curse/Pilgrim and Arazu/Lachesis need to focus multiple Neut/Damp modules to really mess up a single target, while Minmatar and Caldari can cripple at least 2x targets.
The only cases dual-webbers on a single target are needed is vs. gate re-approaching heavy ships and very fast small ships, in which cases all other recons woul do few things to threat em - perhaps Gallente ones could tackle nanos further out, but without other ships to web etc killing them is not probable.
You are messing combat recons with forcing recons otherwise, and Pilgrim is by far the worst force recon there is. It's ability to solo hand-picked targets means nothing...a stealth bomber or a ceptor can solo targets too, does that prove something? Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game! |
Caelum Dominus
Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:29:00 -
[1080]
SO YOU THOUGHT WE'D LET THIS THREAD DIE, HUH?
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